It is a hypothetical. The argument is if a game like Sekiro had an optional easier mode that FromSoft chose to add, of their own free will (or was part of the game day 1) , and you could play through on standard difficulty, never having to touch the easier mode, would it detriment your enjoyment of the game? If yes, how? Jim thinks it wouldn't in any material way.this nonexistent mode is not "harmful" what is harmful is assuming that people are doing harm by thinking otherwise. this bullshit strawman gaslighting is what is harmful. right away he is framing the question so that if people think different than him, they are accusing him of being harmful. he is defining his own outrage.
no it doesn't do a game any harm. because it doesn't exist. there is no easy mode in Sekiro, so how can a nonexistent thing have any impact? this is a dumb and pointless argument. we are arguing over things that don't exist.
Why people think adding difficulty setting is easy as flipping a switch? The developers need use resource and man power to balance each difficulty unless you want FROM just shoehorned unbalanced difficulty option for sake of making other people happy.As someone who's loved from software games since the King's field days,I don't see anything wrong with an easy mode..
Just don't give people trophies or achievements for beating bosses/the game. Once they beat the game on easy, it gives them a message like "are you ready for the real game/A challenge" or some shit.
This and also I would say Sekiro already gives you lot of option to make boss fights easier with shinobi tools.I said this in the other threads, Sekiro is a "Souls" game. These games have a certain reputation that attracts a lot of attention. That's their difficulty. An easy mode would remove that characteristic as it would make them the same as all other games that have difficulty modes.
The high difficulty, the inaccessibility, the hostility, etc, give these games some sort of identity that very few other games have (if any).
All this game is asking is for people engage with its mechanics but its seems thats too much for some people these days.
I can pick any game made before 2001 and fucking guarantee you it'll be harder than a souls game.
As always..fuck elitism in any hobby always.
Quote from Jim that says it all... "What is so harmful about a completely optional mode that you never have to experience?"
I can only speak for myself of course, but for me:The argument is if a game like Sekiro had an optional easier mode that FromSoft chose to add, of their own free will (or was part of the game day 1) , and you could play through on standard difficulty, never having to touch the easier mode, would it detriment your enjoyment of the game? If yes, how? Jim thinks it wouldn't in any material way.
And if From says no, can you guys STFU about an easy mode?Then we should ban mods, and everything else that could hinder the devs' artistic vision.
Like, I don't know, playing on a sub-par tv. Or playing it without sound. Or with better antialiasing.
Or taking turns with friends.
I really hope From's decides to actually release an easy mode. Just to say "see, it's their artistic vision now".
Jim's right: fuck off with this bullshit. Let people have fun the way they want. Who cares?
If cheating makes the game more fun to some people, thus making the game more popular, what's the problem?
Why people think adding difficulty setting is easy as flipping a switch? The developers need use resource and man power to balance each difficulty unless you want FROM just shoehorned unbalanced difficulty option for sake of making other people happy.
Thankfully they are already getting success without trying to appeal to everybody, in fact I would say its because the way design their games that make them stand out from everybody else.Like I Said,I've been a from fan since Kings field days,Love their games,I just want them to get as much sucess as they can.
He makes the argument that if you enjoy something you'll generally like to share it with others too. Homogenising a game to appeal to a mass audience often backfires and leads to the game losing what made it special: focus groups, design by committee and all that flawed stuff.
However what I think he gets at is that allowing for (not forcing) small concessions like the possibility of an easy mode that'd allow for more sales might be the lesser of two evils if the alternative is mtx, loot boxes, season passes and so on. Not a "they must do this", just the possibility of it.
I agree with the notion that those that choose an easier option could experience a similar level of blood sweat and tears as another player would with the standard difficulty.
It is a hypothetical. The argument is if a game like Sekiro had an optional easier mode that FromSoft chose to add, of their own free will (or was part of the game day 1) , and you could play through on standard difficulty, never having to touch the easier mode, would it detriment your enjoyment of the game? If yes, how? Jim thinks it wouldn't in any material way.
I've been playing through Dark Souls 3, FINALLY. I've actually been counting deaths at bosses, and yeah, at least for the main story, it's really not that hard.there is nothing harmful about it. but if a developer does not want to dedicate time for it. then I have no problem the developer made that decision. regardless of how simple it might be to do so.
80% of 2d games are harder than dark souls. people just dont want to put the ffort in it. dark souls is not that hard. its just a game that takes effort. most 2d games are infinitely harder. people just expect to fucking get grabbed by the hand and given arrows click-to-do segments like the ones in uncharted and cinematic games these days. its nearly impossible to lose.
The fact you state easier games to be brain dead says a lot about your elitism. Do you really think i would give a flying fuck if nintendo added a optional ultra hardcore elite mode to animal crossing?
NO then why do so many SOULS gamers give a fuck about an easy mode being in theirs.
NO then why do so many SOULS gamers give a fuck about an easy mode being in theirs.
As always..fuck elitism in any hobby always.
Quote from Jim that says it all... "What is so harmful about a completely optional mode that you never have to experience?"
Too bad this debate is more like people watching a silent film, then demanding a voice dub because they refuse to learn how to read.It would be like someone who loves films, crying that SOMEONE ELSE watches the film with subtitles and then argues to NOT have subtitles that they won't use, that are optional and have nothing to do with how they actually view the film themselves. If anyone of us saw something like that, we'd laugh.
Too bad this debate is more like people watching a silent film, then demanding a voice dub because they refuse to learn how to read.
Reading is elitist!
You're right! Money grows on trees, and voice actors work for free!I mean....they'd still have the option. So....why would someone get mad at a dub option? You know anyone really getting mad at a feature that is optional?
You're right, let's make every book a movie, let's make every movie a book! Money grows on trees, and voice actors work for free!
Thankfully they are already getting success without trying to appeal to everybody, in fact I would say its because the way design their games that make them stand out from everybody else.
I'm sure if they added an easy mode they would sell more..But yeah,Their games are meant to be hard and that's part of the appeal. It's just shame alot of gamers and journalists are scared of a good challenge in games these days.Thankfully they are already getting success without trying to appeal to everybody, in fact I would say its because the way design their games that make them stand out from everybody else.
As always..fuck elitism in any hobby always.
Quote from Jim that says it all... "What is so harmful about a completely optional mode that you never have to experience?"
Wow!? huh? Buddy, don't exaggerate that much. Subtitles or dub in films is normal options just like difficulty settings and even sub and dub are options.
None of that is unreasonable as too many have them to really suggest its not normal or too much work or unreasonable etc. Sorry but it just doesn't make sense and you are working pretty hard to make it look like its this massive undertaking.
Its not for 99% of the games that exist.....
JUST like its not for 99% of the films that exist to have subtitles.
Wow!
How dubbing works.
James Cameron's Avatar has earned over $440 million at the domestic box office but has raked in more than twice that much internationally. The...slate.com
Going for broad and mass appeal isn't always beneficial for a game, it all depends on how it's marketed. And Souls games are marketed as a game with hard content, where you are supposed to learn to overcome the challenges, it doesn't try to lower the bar and it doesn't try to infantilize you. So when I see people try to whine about the difficulty and more so conflating accessibility with difficulty, it makes me get the image of the Nietzschean Last Man.
Honestly, more games should go for a single difficulty setting that challenges the player, as most games have multiple difficulties and those who have only one tend to have a "easy" or "normal" one. I mean, for god's sake, a lot of us have grown up to games with one difficulty setting and harsh punishment for failure (start the game over again).
Even my wife, who I'd say hasn't grown up with games that are as punishing as a lot of NES and SNES games, tried really hard to be the Taurus Demon, never whining about difficulty, just getting mad at her own failures and felt ashamed and like her victory wasn't earned when she finally killed him, because he accidentally jumped off to his death at 15% or something. She never asked for a difficulty option and she'd have easily accepted coming at an impasse and taking a break from the game for a while.
The song for fans of Soulsbornkiro or other difficult games:
" Souls games are marketed as a game with hard content, where you are supposed to learn to overcome the challenges, it doesn't try to lower the bar and it doesn't try to infantilize you"
Good thing many are talking about adding a easy mode and not removing the normal mode then.....
The game can still be that.
So.....yea.
optional. As in, you don't need to play that other mode and you still get "the challenges"
Actually....I proved you don't read what's presented to you.ok...
Its still a feature in many films. You just proved my point seeing how they clearly added it.....
lol why did you cherry pick that to argue? Did you not read the whole post or ? "None of that is unreasonable as too many have them to really suggest its not normal " ie "not normal"
"Otherwise, the decision depends on the type of film and its perceived market value in a given country. Animated films are dubbed into more languages than live action, since animation is primarily aimed at children who may not be able to read subtitles. Disney’s The Princess and the Frog, for instance, will be dubbed into 38 languages, while the studio’s live-action offering The Sorcerer’s Apprentice is only scheduled for nine."Dub and sub is normal in a film as options.
Actually.... I just proved you don't read.
"Otherwise, the decision depends on the type of film and its perceived market value in a given country. Animated films are dubbed into more languages than live action, since animation is primarily aimed at children who may not be able to read subtitles. Disney’s The Princess and the Frog, for instance, will be dubbed into 38 languages, while the studio’s live-action offering The Sorcerer’s Apprentice is only scheduled for nine."
I don't think you understand. The normal mode is the game, the bar you have to pass is beating the boss and it's the same for everyone. And an easy mode would destroy the marketing of the game. It'd just be another game where you just adjust your difficulty that caters to you. The game is set up to either allow you to grow or for you to accept your limitations. It knows you can do it, but that you need to realize what you're doing wrong. It doesn't lower the bar for you because you struggle, it makes the struggle something to overcome and giving you a sense of progression. Take a random game like InFamous: The Second Son. At the end of that game I never felt like me as the player had evolved and sure, you got lots of powers in the end, but they never felt earned. Soulsbornkiro games treat you like a person that can do better than what you'll settle for. The games would be totally different as an experience if it had "modes".
Why does everything have to appeal to everyone? Why can't something just Excel at being what it is, at the expense of appealing to Western audiences who lack the mental fortitude and patience to understand it?? huh? Buddy, don't exaggerate that much. Subtitles or dub in films is normal options just like difficulty settings and even sub and dub are options.
None of that is unreasonable as too many have them to really suggest its not normal or too much work or unreasonable etc. Sorry but it just doesn't make sense and you are working pretty hard to make it look like its this massive undertaking.
Its not for 99% of the games that exist.....
JUST like its not for 99% of the films that exist to have subtitles.
"I don't think you understand. The normal mode is the game"
Yea...a mode that is still going to be in the game if you add easy mode.
InFamous Second Son also has many modes, it has a expert mode.... sooooo yea. Still a great game, more modes is ok.
Well I have a much broader definition of art than you do.
The way in which you live your life is an art form.
To me, art is creation. To exclude games from the definition of art is to reduce art to a non-concept, to make it vanish altogether.
The argument is if a game like Sekiro had an optional easier mode that FromSoft chose to add, of their own free will (or was part of the game day 1) , and you could play through on standard difficulty, never having to touch the easier mode, would it detriment your enjoyment of the game? If yes, how?
Oh the irony. They're not uncommon, but they're also not in a lot of stuff, you know why? Because it costs money, time, and resources which you keep trying to downplay, no matter how many times you repeat the same thing pretending it isn't. Some also don't include them out of artisitc vision for the movie. And that goes the same for options.Its still a feature. In many films bud, you are just arguing to argue. Too many games have many modes to pretend as if its asking too much or uncommon or anything like that. Sub and dubs are not uncommon and are in many films, shows etc.
It's sad you're having to resort to this to people countering your "points". No, I only question people that clearly have no idea what they're talking about, yet keep pretending they do. I'm not at all arguing difficulty options in games, I am however going to call out anyone that says a purposely hard game needs a easy mode when the game is purposely hard and the game is marketed as such. Like, have you seen ads for From Software games?You just can't stand that its something that happens enough to question this game.
Oh the irony. They're not uncommon, but they're also not in a lot of stuff, you know why? Because it costs money, time, and resources which you keep trying to downplay, no matter how many times you repeat the same thing pretending it isn't. Some also don't include them out of artisitc vision for the movie. And that goes the same for options.
Also it's not just movies either, lots of games are subtitles only, especially from smaller companies because they can't afford dubbing. I love how you keep pretending this isn't true just because it counters your entire argument. I'm not sure if you noticed this, but Demon's Souls was English voices only, From Software didn't start having multiple languages until, get this, they had more money. +gasp*
It's sad you're having to resort to this to people countering your "points". No, I only question people that clearly have no idea what they're talking about, yet keep pretending they do. I'm not at all arguing difficulty options in games, I am however going to call out anyone that says a purposely hard game needs a easy mode when the game is purposely hard and the game is marketed as such. Like, have you seen ads for From Software games?
This one was on the first page.
That makes it pretty clear what there games are, who they're aimed for, the experience the developers intend, and what you're in for.
Now you're just being disingenuous. The Normal Mode _IS_ the game. That's the bar you have to pass. If you can't,, then it's no different than utterly failing at completing an "easy mode" in a game. The whole game is designed around you yourself needing to do whatever with the tools, items and environment at hand, to pass that bar. It doesn't infantilize you and makes you grow as a person.
And ugh, InFamous Second Son having more modes isn't really relevant to an argument about the Souls games. It's an example how difficulty settings just don't bring a lot to the table in term of self-improvement. Hard modes tend to be "more damage taken, less health", that doesn't make for the same as a single designed difficulty, a single bar you have to pass. In a game with easy mode you can just switch to an easier difficulty and destroy all sense of challenge. That makes the experience of the game completely different from one with just a single difficulty.
There is nothing stopping people from finishing a Souls game. They just don't want the challenge and the overcoming of that challenge is the core of the Souls games.
"They are very much in a lot of stuff and its a normal option to see. " And they're very much NOT in a lot of stuff too, and it's not unnormal to see." they're also not in a lot of stuff" They are very much in a lot of stuff and its a normal option to see.
I think its funny that lots of teams can have many options and we are trying to now pretend its this rare, costly thing just to argue. Ok pal.
If some game devs don't want to do that, that's their buisness. Different games exist for different reasons.... What does it matter to you how a game dev designs how there game is meant to be played anyway?If someone wants to do that, thats their business. Different modes exist for different reasons.... What does it even matter to you how someone else is playing it anyway?
"In a game with easy mode you can just switch to an easier difficulty and destroy all sense of challenge"
Ok.
If someone wants to do that, thats their business. Different modes exist for different reasons.... What does it even matter to you how someone else is playing it anyway?
That's their business if it's available. Making the game is the developer's business and they can say: this is the bar. That's the sense of design and having a goal with your game, to make all people grow to pass said bar. It sells very well with this design and its marketing. No-modes also exists for different reasons as well.
One could easily ask: "Why does it even matter to you that there's a game you can't beat within your expectations of attempts?", "Why does it matter to you that the game has one difficulty setting?", there are after all other games there and there's nothing saying this one is one you should be allowed to play in any difficulty you want.
These modes don't exist in a vacuum and the collective experience of the game will be different depending on what's available. The gaming experience itself is a social thing, the experience of a game with a single mode adds value to the accomplishment of beating it. If it had an easy mode, then talking about finishing DS1 would be completely different experience. So it definitely has an effect on the one playing the harder difficulty. It's not a self-contained thing, but a larger part of a sense of community, a part of a sense of accomplishment and self-improvement that's shared amongst people playing the game.
Moot. Who stated they could or couldn't? This is simply speculation.
Yea...they can still do that in the normal mode, no one said take away its original mode...
Well yes.....for those who actually wanted to play that MODE TO HAVE THAT DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE. DS1 if it had a easy mode, doesn't mean removing normal mode. Talking about platinuming a game is also a completely different experience too lol Annnnnnd also a option.
That makes it pretty clear what there games are, who they're aimed for, the experience the developers intend, and what you're in for. It's clear the devs don't want you to have an easy experience, regardless of what YOU want.
As always..fuck elitism in any hobby always.
Quote from Jim that says it all... "What is so harmful about a completely optional mode that you never have to experience?"
Why it is so hard for people like you to realize that it's players who hack games to make them easier, but it is devs who make difficulties. I think it is important for a game to have single difficulty or at least have a message saying that this is the intended difficulty, and somehow differentiate difficulties beyond damage and health values, preferably with conditions on endings, so we can have a laugh at shitters and game reviewers. You know, the PixelJunk Sidescroller situation, when the game reviewer is so incompetent that he shows the game in negative light and we can instantly see that he is incompetent, since easier modes hide additional levels.Boy it must fucking enrage you and fill you up with hate people hack the shit out of souls games on pc and play your precious hardcore game on EZ-mode.
So to come back at your statement i do whatever the fuck i want to MY game i bought with MY money.
Cant wait for from soft to release an EZ mode in one of their games and then i can go all "its their artistic vision" on yo ass
Boy it must fucking enrage you and fill you up with hate people hack the shit out of souls games on pc and play your precious hardcore game on EZ-mode.
So to come back at your statement i do whatever the fuck i want to MY game i bought with MY money.
Cant wait for from soft to release an EZ mode in one of their games and then i can go all "its their artistic vision" on yo ass