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[FloweryMarston]

don't developers remove choice from players a lot of the times?

 

[Gray Matter]

But that's you. The game isn't telling your story as a player, it's telling Joel's story. It never pretends to give you core story decisions. They establish that Joel wouldn't make the choice that you're saying that you'd make. That was established the second that Joel told Tommy that he would take Ellie to see the Fireflies. Because that's the first time he really showed that he cared about her and didn't view her as cargo (as Tess once referred to her).

I understand that, I just think that it would have been great if we were given the option. There already have many debates and discussions on what Joel did. Imagine if there was a choice there for the player.

 

[Coxswain]

Would you really call that "removing" choice? The only one you've really got from the moment you boot up the game is "I can turn this off or I can keep playing it".

Edit: I mean, there's obviously a case to be made for linear games without player agency, but I don't know if anybody is really making a case against them beyond just saying "I don't really like games where I don't get to make choices". I feel like basing an argument on what happens at the end of The Last of Us is kind of pointless because whatever happens there, choice-wise, it's the same thing that happened as soon as you started the game.

 

[Spot]

Maybe that's it - so many games are "avatar focused" then "character focused". We need more character-driven games.

Like what?

 

[KorrZ]

But that's you. The game isn't telling your story as a player, it's telling Joel's story. It never pretends to give you core story decisions. They establish that Joel wouldn't make the choice that you're saying that you'd make. That was established the second that Joel told Tommy that he would take Ellie to see the Fireflies. Because that's the first time he really showed that he cared about her and didn't view her as cargo (as Tess once referred to her).

Yup, that's exactly right. The story didn't have any logical place to go except for where it did - anything else would have been a complete betrayal of Joels character up to that point.

That's why I honestly have to question when I see people mad that they didn't get a choice if they even paid attention to the story at all? The idea of sacrificing Ellie makes absolutely ZERO sense in the context of the story.

 

[SilentTristero]

I shot the doctors in the feet. Pretty sure they lived. Joel still made a selfish decision in my version, but at least he's no doctor murderer.

 

[Marcel]

don't developers remove choice from players a lot of the times?

Player choice is nice and all, but it is occasionally: an unrealistic expectation, illusion, or an overstated phrase that loses all meaning in the face of hyperbolic internet discourse.

 

[Tabris]

Would you really call that "removing" choice? The only one you've really got from the moment you boot up the game is "I can turn this off or I can keep playing it".

I say removing choice, not the fact it had choice in the first place, but because the industry standard would have been to have a choice there.

 

[HK-47]

I understand that, I just think that it would have been great if we were given the option. There already have many debates and discussions on what Joel did. Imagine if there was a choice there for the player.

It would be terrible is what I imagine.

 

[Gray Matter]

But the game never gave you choice, it never once presented you with options.

I made a thread about this, and I still believe it to be true. Games that let the player "choose" the ending are one of the reasons I find that this opinion exists. Even when this game never hinted at a choice, or even remotely presented Joel as an extension of the actual player, their are still those who feel they, the player, should have had a say in Joel's actions at the end, and where the story was going to go.

One ending follows the character arc and progression of Joel, which harkens back to the beginning of the game when he had his daughters life taken from him by force for the betterment of the many.

The other negates the previous 14 hours of gameplay and character building to throw it all away so you can have a separate ending, one which doesn't fit narratively with the entire setup.

I'm not saying the game should have given me the option, all I'm saying is that I personally, would have liked to be given the option to do it.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

I understand that, I just think that it would have been great if we were given the option. There already have many debates and discussions on what Joel did. Imagine if there was a choice there for the player.

But that's not Joel. The only way to have the second ending work is to have Joel have gone through different decisions and actions throughout the game.

Me making the action to kill Ellie wouldn't have made an interesting debate, cause I just took the decision away from Joel for my own personal view. At that point we're not talking about Joel's actions and thought or personal justifications for his actions, we're talking about the players.

I'm not saying the game should have given me the option, all I'm saying is that I personally, would have liked to be given the option to do it.

I understand that's what you think, I'm just debating with you why I think having an option would be a bad idea.

 

[Tabris]

Me making the action to kill Ellie wouldn't have made an interesting debate, cause I just took the decision away from Joel for my own personal view. At that point we're not talking about Joel's actions and thought or personal justifications for his actions, we're talking about the players.

Exactly on point.

 

[MJLord]

I disagree. Like I said I think it would have made the game that much better. In my first playthrough when I reached the operating room I stood for 30-60 seconds because I didn't want to kill the doctor, until I realized that I had to kill at least one of them. If I was given the option to kill him or not, it would have culminated the entire game for me there, all that I, as the player, went through with Ellie would be ultimately be my decision, and that I think, like I've already mentioned, would have made the game that much better.

It's crafted to invoke that feeling in you though. Joel crosses a line killing the doctors. Up until that point anybody he killed could be chalked up to self defense or "they were only bad guys".

 

[Justified]

The last of us is one of the few exceptions where I wish I was given an option. I'm content with the ending as it is, but I think the game would be that much greater if the player was given the option to

Spoiler

sacrifice Ellie or not.

Possible sequel would be ruined

 

[Marcel]

I understand that, I just think that it would have been great if we were given the option. There already have many debates and discussions on what Joel did. Imagine if there was a choice there for the player.

I'm imagining it and I don't see how it's more impactful. Joel's choice to damn the human race was one of the most interesting things in a game that pulls the player's heartstrings in sometimes overly simplistic and cynical ways. Having an option at the end would totally neuter the impact of the narrative.

 

[Gray Matter]

But that's not Joel. The only way to have the second ending work is to have Joel have gone through different decisions and actions throughout the game.

Me making the action to kill Ellie wouldn't have made an interesting debate, cause I just took the decision away from Joel for my own personal view. At that point we're not talking about Joel's actions and thought or personal justifications for his actions, we're talking about the players.

But on game that relies heavily on emotional connection, don't you think the player should have some say in what happened? I do.

Again, I'm perfectly fine with the ending, I just would have made different choices.

 

[GIANKRATOS]

I totally agree.

 

[Lionel Richie]

This game specifically makes absolutely no sense with a different ending being possible. It's one of the cases where you're never making choices, but rather interacting with an unfolding story. You can disagree with the ending, but changing it would either require changing the whole build up towards it or it would just fuck the whole narrative.

 

[Omadahl]

Spoiler

I think the people who say Joel should've sacrificed Ellie missed an important part of the story.

[/QUOTE]

They probably aren't parents. My daughter was about one when I played this and I thought Joel made the only decision a parent would make.

 

[Cuyejo]

Not every game needs to be open world, nor linear, nor give you choices... etc etc.
Developers should do whatever the fuck they want, it's up to the player to decide if he likes it or not.

 

[KorrZ]

But on game that relies heavily on emotional connection, don't you think the player should have some say in what happened? I do.

Again, I'm perfectly fine with the ending, I just would have made different choices.

The problem is that in order to have a real connection to a character they need to have believable goals and motivations. They have to act like real people so you can relate and invest in them. Going completely against what they've established and built up as Joels character the entire game is a much quicker way to destroy that connection.

 

[Marcel]

But on game that relies heavily on emotional connection, don't you think the player should have some say in what happened? I do.

The developers think the choice isn't necessary. An emotional connection doesn't automatically open up some flimsy option for narrative player choice in a game that has nothing else like that.

 

[Gray Matter]

Possible sequel would be ruined

A continuation of the story, yes. But there are many stories to be told in TLoU universe so I wouldn't worry about possible sequels.

 

[EmptySpace]

Well first of all, he didn't realize it would mean her death. That's not revealed until they get to the hospital. You predicted that?

The game also presents this very subtle commentary that Joel may actually be a "bad man" but you're so absorbed in his "noble quest". It seems like he's becoming less selfish through out but it's actually the opposite. His final choice is one of pure selfishness. Playing again you start noticing the comments like "I've been on both sides" or Tommy commenting on "The things you did scarred me" a lot more. Once again, predicted all of that?

uhhh...yes?

if all they ever needed from ellie was a blood sample then they wouldn't be escorting her across states. it was fairly hinted at that she was going to be a sacrifice for something. even if that fact was not revealed until the hospital, you would've already known how joel would've reacted.

sorry, what? joel has always been selfish all throughout with regards to ellie. as far as i'm concerned, he was only looking out for ellie and himself the entire game.

it was never a question for me if he had wanted the cure, because he's survived for 20 years and he seemed well-adapted to the world. he didn't seem desperate for a cure unlike the others. why? he had nothing and no one.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

TLoU's ending was done right. Too great of an ending to be fucked up by then, all of a sudden, give you choice in that story. (Not only am I talking about the

Spoiler

Hospital happenings

, but also about what

Spoiler

Joel said to Ellie

at the very end.

If the creators only do multiple endings because they fear that players are going to be mad about "that's not what I would have done there", then I don't want multiple endings. But multiple endings can be a creator's vision as well. If the devs are all hyped because of "different ending" and "multiple playthroughs", "point-of-no-returns" etc., then by all means, do multiple endings.

 

[Azriell]

But that's you. The game isn't telling your story as a player, it's telling Joel's story. It never pretends to give you core story decisions. They establish that Joel wouldn't make the choice that you're saying that you'd make. That was established the second that Joel told Tommy that he would take Ellie to see the Fireflies. Because that's the first time he really showed that he cared about her and didn't view her as cargo.

Completely agree. This was Joel's story, we were just along for the ride. In more open ended games I want all the control I can get, but in a story-driven/character-driven game, I prefer to just know how the story "really" ends.

 

[Marcel]

Honestly I really don't see why people would want to be Joel's avatar or embody his choices. He's a sad sack murderer who damned the human race to replace his dead daughter. Not someone I would want representing me.

 

[Wardemon]

I agree with you,
But i don't mind multiple endings if they were done right,
I love it when they give me choices without letting me know whats right and what's wrong like how the witcher does it!
Never liked how bioware does their choices but i dont mind them also

TLOU is a masterpiece

 

[Storm Raider]

But Joel would never, EVER, have sacrificed Ellie. You may have, but the character you were playing would never even have considered it -- to the point he'd go on a murdering rampage to prevent it.

/thread.

 

[Ocaso]

Disagree. Both endings could be written fantastically. Choice puts you in the drivers seat and provides ultimate immersion

Point me to any example within any media of multiple endings in which each ending is equally regarded. The reality is that too often multiple endings ARE added as a checklist requirement. The ending of a story is usually plotted together with the beginning, and writing compelling branching paths is generally a fool's errand.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

It was as if the heavens had been guiding him all of his life and now Noah knew what had to be done:

Build Ark: Yes/No?

 

[EmptySpace]

But on game that relies heavily on emotional connection, don't you think the player should have some say in what happened? I do.

Again, I'm perfectly fine with the ending, I just would have made different choices.

no?


same way i was with breaking bad. not to say tlou and breaking bad are on equal ground.

joel isn't my own character. i am playing as him but he is independent and has his own personality. hence the 3rd person nature of the game.

that is why sometimes i often think of vr in 1st person. people need to distinguish that the character isn't a representation of themselves.

 

[Harlequin]

You should play more (good) RPGs. Lol (If you don't)

Most RPGs unfortunately have settings or artstyles I don't like. For example, I'm not a huge fan of medieval fantasy (I made an exception for DA:I, though) or JRPGs, not a huge fan of 2D games, either, and if you exclude those three then there aren't a whole lot of good RPGs left as far as I'm aware. And non-RPG games that have dynamic stories are kinda rare, too. I mean, there are Quantic Dream's games, Telltale's games (though I haven't played any of those because zombie apocalypses bore me to death, Game of Thrones is pretty much medieval fantasy and that Werewolf game didn't look too interesting. LOL, yeah, I'm too picky for my own good), now there's Life is Strange. Oh and the last Sherlock Holmes game also had dynamic storytelling IIRC. Been wanting to check that out. Then there are point-and-click adventures but those are pretty much a niche product and I unfortunately can't stand the point-and-click mechanic .

But yeah, I think dynamic storytelling should not be exclusive to RPGs or point-and-click adventures. There should be more games like Heavy Rain, for example.

 

[Rurunaki]

I wouldn't want that choice to be honest. If you have truly immersed yourself in the game and haves developed empathy for Joel, the option of

Spoiler

sacrificing Ellie

wouldn't even enter your mind.

Joel's character development of apathy changing to pathos throughout the game made it impossible for him to consider being given an option at the end. He was not a blank slate character as others have pointed out, and to be truly immersed in the game is to be able to put yourself in Joel's shoes.

Sure it is easy to say that I would have rather chosen a different option, but you have to ask yourself - would you have really done anything else otherwise? This is one of those, logically I should, but being humanity is inherently selfish, I won't moment.

 

[MickeyKnox]

Traditional storytelling and good game design are antithetical to one another.

More mechanics less high budget machinima please.

 

[Molemitts]

Ehh, I don't think multiple endings are the be all and end all of video game story telling, but I don't think The Last of Us tells its story in way that works well with the medium. The Last of Us' story isn't really interactive in anyway for whole game, so suddenly making it interactive right at the end would be very out of place.

For the kind of game The Last of Us is, yeah you're probably right, but I really think stories in video games should be interactive in at least some ways. By that point the player should be used to assuming the role of Joel so it's his actions that actually matter to the story, not yours. I don't think that makes a good story in a game, but it's what The Last of Us does and there was no reasons for them to suddenly change that at the end.

 

[TheLostBigBoss]

But on game that relies heavily on emotional connection, don't you think the player should have some say in what happened? I do.

Again, I'm perfectly fine with the ending, I just would have made different choices.

Not when the character is clearly his/her own person with their own personal justifications for their actions. Not when I'm presented with a game that has me following the actions of a man that has had 20 years of dealing with the post apocalypse. To have me suddenly dictate his actions would be silly.

If the game was set up where I was making choices and Joel was clearly an extension of myself and my train of thought, I would be thinking differently to the idea of multiple endings.

 

[Sotha_Sil]

See why is that? Because you don't have that in movies or tv shows - are those not engaging for you? The avatar focused story telling should be an option (because it can be effective), not the industry default.

Because gaming is an interactive medium. I play games to become engrossed and temporarily lost in their worlds, and that happens at a much deeper level for me in games with choice and consequence than most TV and cinema. It's especially powerful when you have to actually think critically about the decisions you make.

By selectively quoting my post, you missed the part where I didn't think it should be by default. Some games like TLOU want to take a different angle and that's fine, they're just not games for me and I accept that.

 

[entremet]

I don't think its an either/or argument. There's room for both. TLOU is a masterpiece so you can't expect every game to do is as well as ND did for that game.

 

[Coxswain]

I say removing choice, not the fact it had choice in the first place, but because the industry standard would have been to have a choice there.

I don't think it really is, though. Like, what other games go from start to finish without giving the player a single moment of narratively-meaningful choice, and then suddenly right at the end go "Oh by the way, press X for ending A and spin the analog stick real fast for ending B"? I'm sure there are some that do that, video game writing being what it is, but I'd have a hard time buying that there are so many of them that it's become a bold artistic statement to make a linear, AAA cover shooter that doesn't have a meaningless box-ticking gesture of player agency at the exact moment that it becomes too late to actually matter.

 

[Marcel]

Traditional storytelling and good game design are antithetical to one another.

More mechanics less high budget machinima please.

I'm not crazy about TLOU or anything but you're really talking out of your ass here.

"High budget machinma?" What?

 

[Sakura]

I don't think multiple endings are that common in games as you suggest OP, certainly not in AAA TPS games.

Second, I thought the ending in the game was the happy ending. You saved the day.

Third, my personal opinion is that multiple endings are better than a singular ending. I feel when you have multiple endings, suddenly the choices you make, the actions you take, have weight to them. When it's a linear ride from point A to point B, I start to lose interest in the plot developments/characters. I don't get attached, I guess you could say. For example, in The Walking Dead, I started off enjoying it. I thought it was a game that made your choices matter, where your relationships with characters were important. Some of the choices you make are life or death for other characters. But as soon as I realised the choices were an illusion, and the outcome linear, I didn't care any more. If a character is going to die regardless of whether I choose to kill him or not, then why should I be stressed out by the choice? I'll just choose to kill them myself and get it over with.
Another example, Spec Ops The Line

Spoiler

there is a segment where you shower enemies with napalm so you can get through safely. The game presents it as though they are enemies and wants you to make the choice to use the napalm, and specifically select them, and kill them. Because afterwards you'll realise they were civilians and you just massacred tons of innocent people and you're supposed to feel bad. However, when I was playing through, I realised they were probably not enemies, and didn't want to use the napalm. I was just like fuck it I'll fight through all the people here that are actually enemies. But the game doesn't let you, you have to do it because the game wants you to experience the 'twist'. The problem is, no longer do I feel responsible for the actions, so I lose attachment, and the events have little impact on me.

Similarly for The Last of Us, I just feel like I'm doing what I have to do to make the story go forward. Whats her face died? Oh well, I couldn't save her because the game wants her to die. That dude got bit by some infected running to safety while I was supposed to be covering him? Again, the game wouldn't actually let me save the non-central characters so who cares.
If it was actually my fault those situations played out the way they did though, then that would be a much more meaningful experience I think.

And finally, last of all, multiple outcomes adds a ton of replayability to the game. I would play The Last of Us again if it wasn't linear. But because it is so damn linear, I don't ever feel like sitting through those 10 hours or so again. Slowly walking through the same talky unskippable story segments. I love Lord of the Rings, but the idea of sitting through all the movies again isn't something I'm into.

 

[Subtervotion]

ending was predictable.

why go there in the first place when joel's not going to go all the way through? doesn't make sense at all.

from the earliest moment that ellie was revealed to be something important to the world i.e. when they first got outside the wall, there was only one ending from thereon out.

That's a load of crap. There are plenty of different ways they could have taken the story. A lot of people expected Joel or Ellie to die. That in and of itself proves you wrong.

 

[To Far Away Times]

It depends on the game, some games are better with multiple endings, some aren't.

Generally speaking, I think having a concrete ending makes for a better narrative.

 

[Ocaso]

But on game that relies heavily on emotional connection, don't you think the player should have some say in what happened? I do.

Again, I'm perfectly fine with the ending, I just would have made different choices.

I actually believe giving the gamer complete control over a character's decisions in a game decreases our connection to that character. He is simply a puppet at that point.

 

[EmptySpace]

That's a load of crap. There are plenty of different ways they could have taken the story. A lot of people expected Joel or Ellie to die. That in and of itself proves you wrong.

load of crap? i am talking about the ending where joel chose to save ellie.


does the overwhelming majority thought joel was going to do otherwise? please.


if you're talking about the general ending of who's going to die or not i mean come on. or where the gener story was going to go? really?

 

[The Faceless Master]

But Joel would never, EVER, have sacrificed Ellie. You may have, but the character you were playing would never even have considered it -- to the point he'd go on a murdering rampage to prevent it.

they should have made a movie.

 

[Marcel]

load of crap? i am talking about the ending where joel chose to save ellie.


does the overwhelming majority thought joel was going to do otherwise? please.

The majority took the narrative for what it was rather than worry about how the unrelated concept of player agency fit into a Naughty Dog game, a company known for making linear games.

they should have made a movie.

Vintage meme, dude! So vintage it stinks.

 

[Rurunaki]

Because gaming is an interactive medium. I play games to become engrossed and temporarily lost in their worlds, and that happens at a much deeper level for me in games with choice and consequence than most TV and cinema. It's especially powerful when you have to actually think critically about the decisions you make.

By selectively quoting my post, you missed the part where I didn't think it should be by default. Some games like TLOU want to take a different angle and that's fine, they're just not games for me and I accept that.

TLoU made it clear from the beginning that this wasn't a game that was giving you choices. They might as well just given you the option in the beginning to not deliver Ellie in the first place, that didn't happen though. The game engrossed and made you lost in the world through the story telling and narrative of Joel and Ellie. The game was never about the player, it was about those two and of you really immersed yourself in the game then you would've empathized with the 2 conflicting feelings of Joel and Ellie. To randomly make a decision for Joel would've lessen the impact of the game.

 

[Reedirect]

I agree completely. Multiple endings are almost never done well in narrative-driven games.

I know I'm kinda crazy about this, but I also don't really care for multiple endings even if the game relies heavily on choices made by the player. When developers brag that their game has 32 different endings, I don't see that as a positive.