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The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the WIld Combat

And stuff like this.

qV4V2wu.gif


Also every tree we see you can cut down, roll them around or make a bridge across water, or cut it more and make them a bundle of sticks for camp fires.

Didn't someone a while back say there was a way to do this and then like...hop on top of the boulder and ride it? Please tell me that's something you can do.
 

Caelus

Member
Didn't someone a while back say there was a way to do this and then like...hop on top of the boulder and ride it? Please tell me that's something you can do.

I've heard of that, but haven't seen video of it. Depends on whether or not the boulder is climbable.

We do have confirmation that you can construct makeshift catapults:
DqQpddb.gif

NyxWzx.gif
 

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
Riding the boulder was attempted. You either fly along with it and die or fall off and die or get hurt.
 

BY2K

Membero Americo
This was already known but it seems the boss was renamed and it was made more aggressive which was my main issue at E3.

I don't think he was less aggressive, but rather it seems he can lose sight of Link and start looking for him? It looked like the boss was looking around for a while looking for him.
 
Riding the boulder was attempted. You either fly along with it and die or fall off and die or get hurt.

I've seen it attempted where Link got on top of that boulder after a near red-level amount of momentum was applied. The boulder had it's own trajectory and attributes independent of Link (which makes complete sense given the game's engine govern all that) and the thing flew out from under him while also damaging him slightly.

Also saw it attempted where the rep playing climbed on to the boulder after a nearly identical amount of momentum applied, but he grabbed on at the same point he was striking it, so the boulder was to be flying away from him and as it traveled Link lost his grip, which also points to the fact that the physics engine will realistically dictate what link can successfully and continuously hold on to depending on how intensely that object is moving. (quite possible that some equipment later on could strengthen his grip)

The dude, however did not attempt to cling on to the side of the boulder opposite where he was striking it. It seems slightly more likely that Link would either lose his grip or get fatally damaged by the giant rock bullet, or both, but there's potential for the physics engine to be so awesome that the forces at play just keep Link pasted to that rock as it soars, allowing him to release and paraglide.
 
Holy hell, I hadn't seen that one yet...

Imagine the types of things we can do once we increase that stamina wheel by 2x or more...

I hope those upgrades come fast in this game, like hopefully you get a boost every time you get a heart upgrade after killing a boss or completing one of those mini-dungeons.

But it would be good motivation to explore the world a lot if the stamina had it's own "Heart Piece" items (Stamina Pieces I guess). I just don't want to have to find 4-5 of them every time I want to upgrade it a tiny bit.
 

Xbro

Member
Didn't someone a while back say there was a way to do this and then like...hop on top of the boulder and ride it? Please tell me that's something you can do.

This was never confirmed. It was a huge dream of everyone in the e3 roundup thread for someone to try this out though.
 
That's actually really great, not just because of the traditional advantages of ani cancelling (which could help a ton vs Guardians, seemingly,) but because you can combo a jump into an updraft around fires and stuff.

Is this gonna actually be "Legend of Zelda: Fire of the Wild?" ;)

Instead of the Hero of Time or the Hero of Winds, this Link will be the Hero of Flames!
 
To me BotW seems to have taken the best of the combat from the Zelda series and the Soulsborne series, and meshed that with the open world and quest structure of Morrowind.

Which, if true, would make this the absolute perfect game for me. 15/10.

I don't think it's got the best of Soulsbourne Combat. The best part of that combat is that everything the player does consumes stamina which creates interesting decisions at its core. Unfortunately, this has a bad habit of making multiples very annoying unless crowd control is a part of gameplay which it isn't in Dark Souls (Aggroing enemies is not the same as Crowd Control).

BotW's Combat on the other hand seems to be at it's best when the player is forced to crowd control by knocking down enemies or using bomb set ups, various arrow types and the combos they can create while managing these limited resources over the game due to harsh durability. Like a PG The Evil Within lite or something but with more consistent game design.
 
I don't think it's got the best of Soulsbourne Combat. The best part of that combat is that everything the player does consumes stamina which creates interesting decisions at its core. Unfortunately, this has a bad habit of making multiples very annoying unless crowd control is a part of gameplay which it isn't in Dark Souls (Aggroing enemies is not the same as Crowd Control).

BotW's Combat on the other hand seems to be at it's best when the player is forced to crowd control by knocking down enemies or using bomb set ups, various arrow types and the combos they can create while managing these limited resources over the game due to harsh durability. Like a PG The Evil Within lite or something but with more consistent game design.

Oh wow, up until now I thought attacking actually drained stamina but only just a bit! I guess it's just attacking with charged attacks, I'm surprised I missed that.

Anyway, what I find Souls-ey about BotW's combat is that attacks actually carry a lot of weight, impact and damage, compared to other Zeldas which have Bokoblins often do 1/4 heart damage. Also I like the change to health bars and weak points for enemies and mini-bosses. I'm hoping the actual bosses also have health bars rather than the 3 phase 3 hit trope from past Zeldas.

It's hard not to compare the two anyway due to how much Souls drew from the Zelda series.
 
Oh wow, up until now I thought attacking actually drained stamina but only just a bit! I guess it's just attacking with charged attacks, I'm surprised I missed that.

Anyway, what I find Souls-ey about BotW's combat is that attacks actually carry a lot of weight, impact and damage, compared to other Zeldas which have Bokoblins often do 1/4 heart damage. Also I like the change to health bars and weak points for enemies and mini-bosses. I'm hoping the actual bosses also have health bars rather than the 3 phase 3 hit trope from past Zeldas.

It's hard not to compare the two anyway due to how much Souls drew from the Zelda series anyway.

If the Stone Talus is any indication, that'll probably the they way they design boss fights, a main weakpoint with many ways of approach and a logically conveyed weakness with some way to exploit it. And using Health Bars rather than the damage thresholds of previous games. The Great Plateau is basically an Expanded Asylum tutorial if we're doing Dark Souls Comparisons (only it has to be a bit longer because it's giving the player more tools to work in this period with than the Asylum did)

I think one thing that I really like is that when you get off the plateau, Blue Bokoblins are the primary enemy type rather than Red Bokoblins and the enemy camps get way bigger which indicates to me that the designers are aware of the strengths of the combat lie in having a good number of enemies that can deal lots of damage to link that he has to deal with at once.

As for Stamina, you're going to be using quite a bit between Charge Attacks, Sprinting, Climbing, Paragliding and slow motion and draining it has some significant consequences on mobility so there's still some in combat management to handle.
 
If the Stone Talus is any indication, that'll probably the they way they design fights, a main weakpoint with many ways of approach and a logically conveyed weakness with some way to exploit it. And using Health Bars rather than the damage thresholds of previous games.

I think one thing that I really like is that when you get off the plateau, Blue Bokoblins are the primary enemy type rather than Red Bokoblins and the enemy camps get way bigger which indicates to me that the designers are aware of the strengths of the combat lie in having a good number of enemies that can deal lots of damage to link that he has to deal with at once.

I wonder if they'll use the Xenoblade Chronicles X method of slightly "guiding" you in the right direction. You don't have levels here so it's not exactly the same, but that game essentially had no walls, but instead super powerful enemies that either forced you to avoid certain areas till later, or oftentimes required you to sneak around and choose fights wisely. It was actually pretty ingenious. I remember thinking I had done some weird accidental sequence breaking when it would give me missions with monsters of way higher levels before I realized it was intentional
 

Enduin

No bald cap? Lies!
I wonder if they'll use the Xenoblade Chronicles X method of slightly "guiding" you in the right direction. You don't have levels here so it's not exactly the same, but that game essentially had no walls, but instead super powerful enemies that either forced you to avoid certain areas till later, or oftentimes required you to sneak around and choose fights wisely. It was actually pretty ingenious. I remember thinking I had done some weird accidental sequence breaking when it would give me missions with monsters of way higher levels before I realized it was intentional

I think due to the somewhat central nature of the game's start that as you get further out from the center things will get harder. Most people will likely naturally gravitate to the north towards Hyrule Castle at first, placing them dead center in the world on a very large, very open and relatively flat Hyrule Field. So from there the majority of the game world is then all around them in every direction. Those areas closer to the center will likely be easier, save for immediately around Hyrule Castle which will be hardest, while further out towards the edges will be harder and hard without better weapons, upgrades and so on.
 

magnetic

Member
I only recently played both Dragons Dogma and Far Cry 4, and it really ignited my love of open world + good combat.

I always thought that open world really wasn't for me given how godawful the battles in Skyrim were, but when it's fun to mess with enemies I can spend dozens of hours just walking into random directions and see who I can beat up next.

So that alone makes me super interested in this game. I only ever really loved Link To The Past and never really connected with Zelda after that point.
 
I only recently played both Dragons Dogma and Far Cry 4, and it really ignited my love of open world + good combat.

I always thought that open world really wasn't for me given how godawful the battles in Skyrim were, but when it's fun to mess with enemies I can spend dozens of hours just walking into random directions and see who I can beat up next.

So that alone makes me super interested in this game. I only ever really loved Link To The Past and never really connected with Zelda after that point.

Yeah, I'd say that it takes quite a bit from Far Cry's Design in combat being more about how you play with these wacky systems even if the core mechanics themselves aren't the deepest. Though the lack of an Assault Rifle in Zelda will likely make combat more enjoyable more often I feel. Assault Rifles are boring as sin.

Though, the game can generally expect a two handed Sword, One handed with shield and a Spear so expect most of the enemy design to reflect the use of one or more of these weapon types in addition to the Bow and Runes. So there's a lot of potential for complexity in encounters.

One thing that I liked in the Kinda funny Video was that Chico messed up on approaching the base so she charged in and was surprised by a Bokoblin hiding in the Grass. However, it was still a fair trap since there was a wind up to the Swing, but she didn't react in time so she died. And how she used a Bomb arrow on an enemy but another enemy arrow passed through the grass lit up on fire and took off a third of her health.
 
^ A good way to sum up Nintendo game design is that the systems are relatively simple, but mastering the interplay between the systems and the scenarios you face as the game goes on can be quite challenging.

To use a pretty obvious example, Zelda 1 is like an RPG that's ditched all the obtuse things about RPGs (stat management, experience, etc.) and is left with just the bare essentials (health, money, weapons, magic, tools, keys). As a result, approaching the game's core systems is generally pretty easy. Exploiting them to perform well at the game (as opposed to just brute forcing everything or bulking up with the best gear as early as possible and steamrolling enemies) can be really tough, though.

This game wants you to get better stuff if you're too weak or not good enough at the game. It also wants you to be able to ignore stronger gear if the enemies are weak or you're already pretty good at the game. The combat itself is pretty simple, but mastering it - and not using stronger gear as a crutch - is probably much more challenging.
 

GcRayden

Member
And stuff like this.

qV4V2wu.gif


Also every tree we see you can cut down, roll them around or make a bridge across water, or cut it more and make them a bundle of sticks for camp fires.

Looking at that gif, it only makes me think of one thing I want to try:

Imagine getting that boulder near a hill, freeze it and then start hitting it until it's red, then jumping on it for the ultimate fast travel. Then when it's about to land, jump off and glide.
 
^ A good way to sum up Nintendo game design is that the systems are relatively simple, but mastering the interplay between the systems and the scenarios you face as the game goes on can be quite challenging.

To use a pretty obvious example, Zelda 1 is like an RPG that's ditched all the obtuse things about RPGs (stat management, experience, etc.) and is left with just the bare essentials (health, money, weapons, magic, tools, keys). As a result, approaching the game's core systems is generally pretty easy. Exploiting them to perform well at the game (as opposed to just brute forcing everything or bulking up with the best gear as early as possible and steamrolling enemies) can be really tough, though.

This game wants you to get better stuff if you're too weak or not good enough at the game. It also wants you to be able to ignore stronger gear if the enemies are weak or you're already pretty good at the game. The combat itself is pretty simple, but mastering it - and not using stronger gear as a crutch - is probably much more challenging.

I don't feel ignoring gear should be part of difficulty balance but Open Worlds are pretty much impossible to balance already. However, the emphasis on secrets and the tighter durability system could lead to better balancing intrinsically.

I do worry about things like enemy variety though. While the main enemies have multiple movesets and interesting AI interactions (and the sheer polish that went into making their Hitboxes 100% fair), I worry that they may not be able to create enough varied combat scenarios with them because of the amount of effort it took to make them. It's probably a holdover from Skyward Sword however where I felt the poor enemy variety but the trailer showing that there's going to be a reused fight against the Talus signals to me that there might not be enough enemies. Granted it's better than many open world games that only have human enemies, but there's still games like the Witcher 3 which have huge enemy counts.

Your point about the interplay between systems is something that I really think has been missing from 3D zelda for quite some time (Probably since Wind Waker). While even before playing BoTW, it's pretty obvious to see the potential ways I could move and chain my abilities together in both combat and just getting around in general to a level even greater than before plus utilizing the more unique properties of each weapon and weapon type will probably be pretty rewarding. BoTW's combat is streamlined in pretty much the best way I could hope it so far.

It also makes me wonder what the Hero Mode for the game will do. I'd hope they'd do more than just damage because the balance looks great so far.
 
How would that not result in instant death?

Probably something to do with the glider

Best way to describe the combat in this game is "fun". It's not as combat heavy, but if you want to mess around and build catapults or swing your sword or snipe enemies or throw an array of pitchforks or try to fly, you can do so.

If it has enough difficulty, enough, doesn't have to be difficult, then it can hit that balance of the combat being fun and interesting but not having to stand out on its own. The combat is being improved to where you can't criticize the game on its combat as a weak point, you can only say another game does it better.
 

Poyunch

Member
The combat's actually one of things I don't like. It feels a lot more like Monhun/Souls when I wish they went back to the combat of Twilight Princess with the secret moves.
 

bomma_man

Member
I only recently played both Dragons Dogma and Far Cry 4, and it really ignited my love of open world + good combat.

I always thought that open world really wasn't for me given how godawful the battles in Skyrim were, but when it's fun to mess with enemies I can spend dozens of hours just walking into random directions and see who I can beat up next.

So that alone makes me super interested in this game. I only ever really loved Link To The Past and never really connected with Zelda after that point.

You should play MGSV
 
One of the things I am most "ashamed" of in gaming terms is that I was initially disappointed by Wind Waker like so many others. After I had played Majoras Mask, I watched Princess Mononoke and my dream was that there would be a Zelda with that aesthetic. In 1999-2000 it seemed like that N64 Zeldas artstyle tried to emulate an authentic mature fantasy world alongside the likes of LOTR.

Wind Waker was not what people expected and the shock of it became controversial, but this was an instance where they (Nintendo) was absolutely right. Zeldas cartoon aesthetics has made it- Even today, one of the most beautiful games ever made.

Twilight Princess showed a major step back in embracing a more realistic style. Skyward Sword was a lot better but the art style faultered under the hardware. The game had jaggies and framerate problems and resolution problems. It was blurry, full of jaggies.
But this game. This game evolves TP and SS art style with the colorful aesthetics of Wind Waker and the end result looks like Mononoke in motion. That is what excites me a lot about this game, and when I watch combat gifs of Zelda it really, really reminds me of Mononoke.


 
The combat's actually one of things I don't like. It feels a lot more like Monhun/Souls when I wish they went back to the combat of Twilight Princess with the secret moves.

I just got done explaining why it's not like Souls combat. For one, you don't have any I-Frames on your dodge maneuvers which is a HUGE change from Souls or Monster Hunter. Link is Way Faster than most characters in those games to attack. Switching Weapons Pauses the Game to give you time to pick. You have more crowd Control options than in Souls (barring perhaps Bloodborne's Long Reaching weapons), Enemies have Knockdown states which aren't really in Souls games (the only ones that count are Parry states which have different implications for gameplay). Durability in Souls is mostly irrelevant whereas it's vital to combat in Zelda over a by encounter basis. Zelda doesn't have "builds" and all the challenges are built around Link's Complex moveset specifically. The Back Stab is only available via a complex Stealth system and not through Parries and Kiting around an enemy. Link has a Bullet Time meter for god's sake.

If you're going to compare to a game it's a probably closer to something like the The Evil Within or a Mikami game than Souls in my humble opinion.
 

YoodlePro

Member
Not sure if this is the right thread for this.

I've never played a Zelda game, and I've never really seen any gameplay or videos or Let's Plays. I am literally in the dark about the entire series (Don't kill me?).

I am getting the Switch however, which will be my first nintendo home console, and I'm thinking of giving Zelda a try. Would Breath of The Wild be a good starting point, or do I have to replay a good amount of games before I play this one?

The latter is the least preferred option as I don't have that much time to game nowadays and I would much rather spend it on new games than on old ones.
 

TheMoon

Member
Not sure if this is the right thread for this.

I've never played a Zelda game, and I've never really seen any gameplay or videos or Let's Plays. I am literally in the dark about the entire series (Don't kill me?).

I am getting the Switch however, which will be my first nintendo home console, and I'm thinking of giving Zelda a try. Would Breath of The Wild be a good starting point, or do I have to replay a good amount of games before I play this one?

The latter is the least preferred option as I don't have that much time to game nowadays and I would much rather spend it on new games than on old ones.

There is no story continuity (worth mentioning right now) between any of them. Just play this one.
 
Not sure if this is the right thread for this.

I've never played a Zelda game, and I've never really seen any gameplay or videos or Let's Plays. I am literally in the dark about the entire series (Don't kill me?).

I am getting the Switch however, which will be my first nintendo home console, and I'm thinking of giving Zelda a try. Would Breath of The Wild be a good starting point, or do I have to replay a good amount of games before I play this one?

The latter is the least preferred option as I don't have that much time to game nowadays and I would much rather spend it on new games than on old ones.

Other than some small references here and there they've all been pretty much stand alone and there's no reason to assume this one is going to be different. Start wherever you want.
 
Looking at that gif, it only makes me think of one thing I want to try:

Imagine getting that boulder near a hill, freeze it and then start hitting it until it's red, then jumping on it for the ultimate fast travel. Then when it's about to land, jump off and glide.
What if the boulder hits Ganon and the game is over???
 
^ A good way to sum up Nintendo game design is that the systems are relatively simple, but mastering the interplay between the systems and the scenarios you face as the game goes on can be quite challenging.

To use a pretty obvious example, Zelda 1 is like an RPG that's ditched all the obtuse things about RPGs (stat management, experience, etc.) and is left with just the bare essentials (health, money, weapons, magic, tools, keys). As a result, approaching the game's core systems is generally pretty easy. Exploiting them to perform well at the game (as opposed to just brute forcing everything or bulking up with the best gear as early as possible and steamrolling enemies) can be really tough, though.

This game wants you to get better stuff if you're too weak or not good enough at the game. It also wants you to be able to ignore stronger gear if the enemies are weak or you're already pretty good at the game. The combat itself is pretty simple, but mastering it - and not using stronger gear as a crutch - is probably much more challenging.

I hope that switch has an achievement system and that Zelda has an achievement for being the game naked lol
 

Burny

Member
He lands from such a great height and his knees don't even bend.

I have the impression that smooth/realistic animation and snappy controls are to some extend mutually exclusive, with most Nintendo games going for the snappy controls.

Looking at the prime examples of halfway realistically ainmated characters, especially the cinematic Naughty Dog games and the Rockstar games, the characters move pretty realistically, but controls as a result are highly indirect. Nice to look at, but hitting a button.e.g. for jumping or interacting with something is more a wish for your character to execute something, as the animation will take their precious time to blend the various actions. "Please climb up that ledge, whenever you have the time to move your body and all your limbs into a position where that's ok, thanks. Please turn around, but take your time, I know your body won't turn round as fast as I can move the stick."


In contrast, any games where snappy and direct controls are prioritized will invariably end up with janky animations. Taking as an extreme example PC first person shooters. Characters turn as fast as you can hurl the mouse. Characters accelerate from a standstill to full run practically the moment you hit the "forward" key. It wouldn't feel right if they didn't, because of the artificially introduced delay between your input and the execution. From a first person perspective, you hardly bother what your character model does with the rest of it's body other than the arms.

Now, Zelda is a 3rd person game where you see the animation, which however mostly goes for snappy action execution upon input. If they did "realistic" or "smooth" animation, the game would feel very much different to play. Far more indirect and less snappy, because it would have to leave room for animations to play out and blend into each other. Personally I can live with the twitchy animation and snappy controls, as I don't value the cinematic feel of the Naughty Dog and Rockstar games so much for actually playing, but rather for watching those games.
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
I love how chucking your weapon at an enemy really seems to have impact.

9IHMvqg.gif

Lol ouch. I think I felt that.

I can't remember the last game that felt like such a universal "must-play" prior to launch. I'm stupid excited about this and the combat looks like a blast. I wonder how many people are going to wonder why their fire weapons aren't working randomly until they figure out its cause of the rain. I can't wait be randomly struck by lightning. Or, alternatively, I can't wait until I'm in a tough battle and one of my enemies is randomly struck by lightning.
 
I don't feel ignoring gear should be part of difficulty balance but Open Worlds are pretty much impossible to balance already. However, the emphasis on secrets and the tighter durability system could lead to better balancing intrinsically.

Most RPGs (including the first Zelda games) are designed to be beaten without grinding.

That's all I'm saying when I say the game is balanced around the possibility of ignoring gear. You probably don't need to farm weapons or focus on getting stronger stuff if you know how to exploit the game's systems. And that means there's a high skill ceiling even before you get into something like speedrunning.
 

Majukun

Member
I missed seeing this gif. lol



I actually wrote a small bit about each listed and why I ranked them the way I did. Note how you said Ocarina and Majora were simplistic, but Twilight Princess provided too much- TWW maintained the basics of those games and emphasized even more proper item countering. The flash counter as abusive and "braindead" as it was, was the best part about it. It felt good like snapping something into place or pressing the right command in an old school arcade/Capcom game that exploits the enemy. I won't knock it for the accessibility. Not to mention the various ways the counter would show themselves due to enemy variety. Killing a lava centipede felt hella good with the eye stab.

As for Twilight, I actually used a great deal of those moves that were offered, they helped save a lot of time on fights that could've lasted minutes. Especially the helm splitter and that one risk v reward move.

I would praise MM more than OOT due to actually offering more variety via combination of masks and items, but other than that, base combat was the strongest in those 4 games listed imo.

wind waker's counter would have "felt good" to me if it actually took any kind of skill to pull that of, like,as you said,in those old arcades or capcom games..in WW all you had was to wait for the big counter button to flash for what was basically an eternity and defeat everyone. the combat had potential,especially with the ability to use enemies' weapons (like BotW), but was ruined by being way too easy,it needed to be much tighter and the counter be something as an high risk- high reward move instead of a shortcut.

for TP i admit i don't remember much of the combat othe than i very rarely used special moves, so i can't say if it was just me being obtuse and not using them even if needed or if i just didn't need them at all.
Didn't someone a while back say there was a way to do this and then like...hop on top of the boulder and ride it? Please tell me that's something you can do.

that's an idea some people had after hearing that you can send those rock flying,but i don't think anybody ever tested it.
anyway,i doubt it would work because those boulders are way too fast,i imagine the game would have some problems loading the surrounding appropriately with link going that fast
 

TheMoon

Member
that's an idea some people had after hearing that you can send those rock flying,but i don't think anybody ever tested it.
anyway,i doubt it would work because those boulders are way too fast,i imagine the game would have some problems loading the surrounding appropriately with link going that fast

if you read further you'll see someone has explained what happened and how someone tested it in a certain way and it didn't work.
 
One of the things I am most "ashamed" of in gaming terms is that I was initially disappointed by Wind Waker like so many others. After I had played Majoras Mask, I watched Princess Mononoke and my dream was that there would be a Zelda with that aesthetic. In 1999-2000 it seemed like that N64 Zeldas artstyle tried to emulate an authentic mature fantasy world alongside the likes of LOTR.

Wind Waker was not what people expected and the shock of it became controversial, but this was an instance where they (Nintendo) was absolutely right. Zeldas cartoon aesthetics has made it- Even today, one of the most beautiful games ever made.

Twilight Princess showed a major step back in embracing a more realistic style. Skyward Sword was a lot better but the art style faultered under the hardware. The game had jaggies and framerate problems and resolution problems. It was blurry, full of jaggies.
But this game. This game evolves TP and SS art style with the colorful aesthetics of Wind Waker and the end result looks like Mononoke in motion. That is what excites me a lot about this game, and when I watch combat gifs of Zelda it really, really reminds me of Mononoke.

I wholly agree, this game evokes Mononoke like no game before it on more than just a superficial level because of how it represents the world.
 
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