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The Metal Gear series' legacy: The turning point.

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
I wanted to take a moment and get a few thoughts I had on the series in general (and a little bit of 4 in particular) off my mind.

I was just replaying Sons Of Liberty for a bit of trophy hunting, since I figured it's my favourite game of all time, "how come I don't have the platinum? Come on, son!"

Yep.

I couldn't help but find myself in total fucking awe of how proudly 2 wears its "videogame" badge, and what a monumental achievement that game was for its time, and for the industry years on. All over again, this game has me gushing as a series fanboy.

And it got me thinking.

What happened to 4? Why couldn't I, I don't know... Get to reconcile it with 2's immaculate realization?

It had the makings of 2's proper follow up, it had that legendary E3 trailer hype.

So, this is what I think, partly, it came down to:

MGS4's overall quality can be attributed of a number of often overlooked facts influencing it's development:

1. Hideo Kojima being held creatively hostage for far too much time. He probably needed (wanted!) to pass the torch after MGS2. (No place for Hideo!)

2. Sony and their PS3 spec fuckery. 4 was supposed to be open ended/seamless battlefield early on. Was supposed to be the system showcase, like MGS2 was for PS2 years on. They ended up with awkward cuts in between levels and a frankly disparate use of available hardware resources.

2-a. Lost in translation. Amidst all this reassessing of the project's scope, the team was taking on the deliberate task of "westernizing" the game. The Japanese have a terrible track history of wanting to assimilate anything from the West. I'm not saying they shouldn't have taken notes, but that should've been it, really

3. Stemming from point #2, they were scrambling to finish the project, and in doing so botched a lot of the writing and characters' arcs. (Tomokazu Fukushima's mysterious departure didn't do them any favours) We ended up with a comparatively dumb story, riddled with plot enabling mcguffins, that did little to comment on 2's brilliance and cultural relevance.

Of that epic 15 minute trailer that propositioned so many culturally relevant topics, that had Metal Gear fans the world over flooding the internet with their enthusiasm and anticipation, that promised so much with its premise and that eerie yet tangibly realized atmosphere (surely the spitfire combo of Shinkawa, Fukushima and Kojima's genius), was merely a faint trace by the game's release.

MGS4 is still, in many ways, a more traditional Metal Gear game, and in my opinion, a better Metal Gear than V. But it's a pained, and deformed effort; one marred by what you could call the turning point in Kojima's favourable run as Konami's cash cow (for the better, let's be real).

The moment in Peace Walker when The Boss' arc started getting retreaded and Big Boss' presumed understanding of her sacrifice started getting construed to shoehorn a contrived villainy origin, I had already lost faith in the end of his story arc (and the beginning of Solid Snake's) delivering the emotional resonance of 3 for me.

For me, I didn't feel Kojima's heart was in it with PW and beyond. Whatever channel he managed to find through Metal Gear for his creative well, he seemed to have lost it, and was really only doing it for the fans and Konami's moneyed behest.

And that's where I stand as a long time series fan. Holding my Limited Edition copy of 4 with melancholy, and optimistically eager to see what Death Stranding has in store for us.

What about the rest of you, who voted MGS4 GOTY twice? Where do you stand?
 

forrest

formerly nacire
MGS3 might be my favorite of the series, but I still really love the first one. 4 was just okay for me and I haven't played 5 yet, I'm gonna say after 3.
 

SolVanderlyn

Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I love MGS4, but it was definitely a turning point, and in a bad way. It's a blatantly under-realized game (only the first two chapters let you play it as it seemed to be intended to play) with some truly questionable plot decisions (Cyborg Raiden, Raiden's... general absence throughout the game, Snake's aging) and some true gems (final battle, full realization of the Snake/Otacon buddy duo, Solid Eye, Octocamo, the gameplay segments that are there,
the codec team going HAM and turning into The Patriots, YMMV on this being good or bad
).

Peacewalker was a conceptually sound game with a much-too-anime plot and relatively incoherent writing, suffered from pacing issues due to being a handheld game, ruined authentic character relationships by adding people like Huey, who's just a clone of his son...

MGSV redeemed Huey as
a total jerk, and a truly different man from Otacon
, but it was even more under-realized than MGS4, in all of the opposite ways. It's a good game, and that's enough for some people, but the saying that it's a bad Metal Gear rings true.

It definitely began to decline at 4, you're not wrong.

DevilFox made a similar thread a while ago, with some detailed observations about the change in how the series was handled. There's plenty of articles on the web about Fukushima's contributions (as far as I recall, I remember reading a few) and I think they're also true. He was on board for Ghost Babel, the non-canon GBC sequel that, to this day, feels like the only real continuation of the atmosphere and tone laid out in the first game.
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Hot takes everywhere. 👌🔥
 

Village

Member
It all went downhill after MGS2 which is the best MGS game

Mgs2 is my favorite but you are factually wrong

MGS3 isn't down hill, but rather a different hill entirely, I would argue the same for 4. Peace walker and 5 , i can see your argument
 

Ushojax

Should probably not trust the 7-11 security cameras quite so much
Tomokazu Fukushima, one of the main writers of the MGS series, was not involved in any of the games after MGS3. After that the series fell apart, both 4 and 5 were half-baked and felt like the ramblings of a mental patient.
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Hated MGS2
image.php


Come on, now...
 

Sub_Level

wants to fuck an Asian grill.
MGS4 follows the events and characters set up in 2, so when people ask what happened to 4, I say look at MGS2.

Don't blame MGS2 for MGS4. There was nothing in 2 that suggested they had to write that OtaconxNaomi romance and subsequent embarrassing death scene, a tryhard goofy high heeled melodramatic Raiden, a ridiculous premise of a 7 year old girl creating a virus to wipe out the Patriots while conveniently sidestepping the reservations characters had about that in 2, nanomachines in every cutscene, or the lazy copy-and-paste Beauty and Beast backstories.

MGS4's poor writing choices were MGS4's poor writing choices.
 

Ratrat

Member
Tomokazu Fukushima, one of the main writers of the MGS series, was not involved in any of the games after MGS3. After that the series fell apart, both 4 and 5 were half-baked and felt like the ramblings of a mental patient.
You mean the codec writer right?
 
I still think MGS4 is a great game with a few incredibly slow sections that kill the pace, but I still consider it a massive achievement from a fan service point of view and I've played it multiple times and never gone away having not enjoyed it. I just think it needs more Acts 1 and 2 and less of whatever the rest of it was in gameplay terms.

That said, I definitely think Kojima had lost a lot of love for the series.

He left an open ended finale in 2, everyone wanted more, so he went back to make it about Big Boss, another fantastic achievement which set up the rest of the series and gave Big Boss more context for why he did what he did....he then left another team in charge of Portable Ops and while the result was a decent game, it didn't scratch the itch and became forgotten....then, being pushed, he made MGS4 which, again, tied of the series.... but still people wanted more, so we got Portable Ops, trying to fill in more of the Big Boss saga... but still people weren't happy, so we ended up (almost as a big fuck you from Kojima) a sequel, A DIRECT SEQUEL, to a PSP game. The next big release was a direct follow up to Peace Walker, which now became incredibly important to the series for that alone.... and Ground Zeroes made us think Kojima had been able to throw off the shakles of the series and make something incredible and new.... then The Phantom Pain. The development issues, the time, the final product. Kojima found his passion for the series again, but Konami seemed to have other ideas wheteher it was Kojima being a diva or the money or whatever it was.

I feel like Death Stranding will be the game that Kojima wanted MGSV to be.
 
I like MGS4. Scenes dragged on for too long but it embraced the crazy story elements of MGS2 and rewarded fans with an epic farewell to Solid Snake. It isn't a 10 like many reviewers insisted but it is a damn good game and urged me to buy a PS3. I also liked Peace Walker a lot.

MGSV is the only core MGS title I'm less keen on and I don't think that's down to Konami, I'm simply not a fan of Kojima's open world approach. Ground Zeroes had a fantastic sandbox and it turns out that multiplying the scope didn't have many benefits from a gameplay perspective.

Regardless of content Ground Zeroes is a 9 and The Phantom Pain is a 7 to me. It should have ended at 4 but V was where it dipped in quality in my opinion.

For reference 2 and 3 are my favourites.
 

Vic_Viper

Member
1 Huge factor was how Sony was telling Kojipro that the PS3 was going to be this amazing super powerful machine that ended up being BS, like you mentioned. If they had the power of the PS4 when making MGS4, it would have been soo much better. The whole idea of being able to sneak through a battlefield with 2 opposing forces would have been so cool. You can tell Hideo had some great ideas but just wasnt able to do them once he got the actual PS3 dev kit.

Still appreciate what they were able to do with the game but 4 was for sure the turning point in the series. What once was an amazing story definitely started going downhill with 4 and was pretty much all but forgotten with MGSV. 5 still has the best gameplay, but man do I miss the days of MGS2's and 3's amazing narrative.
 

Guess Who

Banned
The problem with MGS4 is that MGS2 is written almost entirely as allegory/metaphor and doesn't really make any sense when taken as an actual thing that happened, but MGS4 decided to treat it all literally.

Don't blame MGS2 for MGS4. There was nothing in 2 that suggested they had to write that OtaconxNaomi romance and subsequent embarrassing death scene, a tryhard goofy high heeled melodramatic Raiden, a ridiculous premise of a 7 year old girl creating a virus to wipe out the Patriots while conveniently sidestepping the reservations characters had about that in 2, nanomachines in every cutscene, or the lazy copy-and-paste Beauty and Beast backstories.

MGS4's poor writing choices were MGS4's poor writing choices.

Also this.
 

SMOK3Y

Generous Member
To me MGS1 & 2 will always be the ones in my heart i tell ya that MGS2 demo was legendary
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Tomokazu Fukushima, one of the main writers of the MGS series, was not involved in any of the games after MGS3. After that the series fell apart, both 4 and 5 were half-baked and felt like the ramblings of a mental patient.

I really want to know why he left, instead of gossiping and pulling tales out of my ass.

From the looks of it, him and Kojima had a really good synergy going on; kept his ideas grounded and gravitated more towards the military dread and nuclear weapons fear mongering, which was a good part of what I enjoyed MGS for.

Is there anyone here that knows more or less on what terms he took leave?
 
You are wrong sir.

3 > 1 > 2

Exactly my order, 2 was good especially story-wise but sadly it felt way too much of a rehash from 1,plus it's just not as engaging to progress when you just circle around the big shell's similar looking environments.

Haven't played the others yet
 

icespide

Banned
3 is great if you love spending hours in menus changing camouflage and burning off leeches as well as phantom menace level prequel shenanigans
 
I feel completely opposite of Peace Walker. It felt like all of his heart was in it. He seemed very proud of what he was able to pull off on a handheld and his first attempt at a cooperative game. 2 is my favorite, 3 is my least favorite. Love them all. For me: 2 > PW > 4 = 1 > V > 3
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
The problem with MGS4 is that MGS2 is written almost entirely as allegory/metaphor and doesn't really make any sense when taken as an actual thing that happened, but MGS4 decided to treat it all literally.



Also this.

But, almost none of that was even hinted at with the 15 minute reveal trailer...

Like, that wasn't the ham fisted tone they were initially going for. The tonal shift lines up with the timing of Tomokazu Fukushima's leave, and I'd wager it could be attributed to it, also. Along with all the other hurdles they had to get over during development.
 

Breakage

Member
MGS1 and 2 are like Terminator 1 and 2. I like to pretend everything that came after doesn't really exist.
I can't stand all the Big Boss bs, but I'm going to do my best to play MGSV and Peace Walker to completion some day.
 

Jawmuncher

Member
MGS4 is literally the worst title in the series due to how much of it is cutscenes (jokingly so compared to the rest of the series) and how at least to me, it took a dump on everything story wise prior. Sure the gameplay was a good improvement from MGS3, but it's so little compared to the rest it doesn't save it.

This might all be part of it being one of my most hyped games, and it not coming anywhere near what I wanted. But regardless, when I replay the series I don't go out of my way to waste time with MGS4.

V might have less story, but the gameplay and tone it has dumps on 4 from a very high height. Still curious how MGS4 wouldn't turned out without troubled dev and Kojima sticking to his guns story wise.
 

Peroroncino

Member
Exactly my order, 2 was good especially story-wise but sadly it felt way too much of a rehash from 1,plus it's just not as engaging to progress when you just circle around the big shell's similar looking environments.

Haven't played the others yet

Yup, my biggest issue with 2 was its monotonus level design, to make matter worse, for me, Big Shell was unappealing from both visual and artistic standpoint.
 

ckaneo

Member
Story was never good.

The series went downhill after 3. After that, I think the technical spectacle got the best of them.
 
Am I crazy or overthinking this or did Kojima pretty much kill off every prominent female in the series? By the time MGS4 ends Meryl, Mei Ling, Rose, and Sunny are all that's left.
 

MCD250

Member
The problem with MGS4 is that MGS2 is written almost entirely as allegory/metaphor and doesn't really make any sense when taken as an actual thing that happened, but MGS4 decided to treat it all literally.
I've always thought this was a problem, yeah.



That being said, I actually like 4 more than 2.
 
4 has an epic soundtrack and, IMHO, one if the most emotional, gut wrenching, fist pumping endings in gaming history. Yes you could tell it was the start of punished Kojima, but even at that point he crafted a great game.


Like 2 , it's also hauntingly accurate in its vision of the war economy and the inevitable growing of control on the battlefield just so we don't destroy ourselves.


2 is my favourite though, a post modern gaming masterpiece with epic tier gameplay and yes, that ending. It still looks great too, purchased the HD version not too long ago and it holds up well.
 
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