PARTYNEXTDOOR
Banned
Lost all sympathy when I read that she got killed by a truck driver. That was such a shitty thing to do to potentially fuck someone else life up just because your life sucked. Such an entitled and short sighted thing to do jesus
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Tragedy of Transgender Suicide in a Single Note
- Thread starter Amir0x
- Start date
- Status
Fuck, I wish I could've talked to her about this before she died. I felt the same way when I was younger. I was so pissed at the people saying "it gets better" because it wasn't happening for me. I was depressed as hell throughout my teen years and even into my early twenties. But eventually you become an adult, start making choices towards the direction in life that you want, and things really do get better. My life couldn't be happier right now, and I'm sure she could've had a happy life as well.
I generally feel the same way about death by police suicide or something like this except i can still sympathize. Suicide is a personal choice and i can empathize with those going through it having my own history and issues. i don't agree with those yelling saying people committing suicide are selfish but when you bring others in on it and put that burden on strangers then that is selfish. i can understand the thought of maybe not being able to do it yourself or religion being a factor which from the OP I feel that might have been a factor not being able to take your own life.
People in these situations aren't exactly making sound rational decisions so I empathize on that level. This is really an all around shit situation. I lay all blame at the parents door and the mother acting the way she is after her daughter's death is extremely telling. I have some relatives that are big in religion and i've seen first hand how everything is a show to them. i would not be one bit surprised behind closed doors the mom is actually thankful on some level she doesn't have to deal with her daughter anymore.
Unknown Soldier
Member
This made it to the front page of BBC News for most of the day:
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-30645896
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-30645896
MisterGrey3000
Member
This is incredibly upsetting to read because this rings true for so many powerless young LGBT people who have no feasible way of escaping their terrible situations.
R.I.P
Leelah
Yes. A suicidal person wasn't thinking clearly, how awful of them.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Always sad to see persons of such a young age killing themselves like this. Such a waste...
She made a mistake, yes, and she's guilty of this, yes, but in the end it's a mindset of a person who just... gave up.
I personally find it difficult to judge considering that.
She made a mistake, yes, and she's guilty of this, yes, but in the end it's a mindset of a person who just... gave up.
I personally find it difficult to judge considering that.
Yeah I mean on the subject of how she did it, I can certainly see why that upsets people. It's definitely unfortunate she chose that way compared to, say, jumping off a bridge or something (I don't think there's really any good way to kill oneself, really). When you involve someone else in your death, it does muddle the message one is sending if they indeed are trying to send a message as was the case here (and in many suicides).
But the mitigating factors is that she is 17, still painfully young. That she was abused and neglected and insulted by every part of society, even down to the people she thought were her friends. That she had lost any semblance of hope. She probably was not thinking rationally about the how she was going to do it, and probably had relatively little concern for anyone else in the situation. I don't want to go too far with the conjecture, but it may even be likely she felt the world was so cruel to her that there was little reason to give it regard on that score.
But no matter why she chose to go out the way she did, I think we can safely assume her mental state was sufficiently deteriorated to the point where she wanted to die and she likely chose the way that was most convenient to her. Maybe there wasn't a building or bridge high enough near her with easy access, and the highway was closer. I don't really know the layout of where she lives, though
But the mitigating factors is that she is 17, still painfully young. That she was abused and neglected and insulted by every part of society, even down to the people she thought were her friends. That she had lost any semblance of hope. She probably was not thinking rationally about the how she was going to do it, and probably had relatively little concern for anyone else in the situation. I don't want to go too far with the conjecture, but it may even be likely she felt the world was so cruel to her that there was little reason to give it regard on that score.
But no matter why she chose to go out the way she did, I think we can safely assume her mental state was sufficiently deteriorated to the point where she wanted to die and she likely chose the way that was most convenient to her. Maybe there wasn't a building or bridge high enough near her with easy access, and the highway was closer. I don't really know the layout of where she lives, though
Side note: A few users have expressed valid concerns about potential copycats. As is the case when discussing any highly publicized suicide or violent crime, there is a not insignificant chance someone might be inspired to copy that act. Now it's impossible to police for this and should not discourage discussion, but due to this we've come to a decision to add a few suicide prevention numbers up front in the OP.
Sorry to any who were concerned about that.
Sorry to any who were concerned about that.
But in their minds they've done no such thing. They've been taught to believe that the Bible contains the answer to everything and that those answers cannot be contradicted because they are the word of God.
When their child came out as trans, the first thing they'll do is look to their faith for guidance and that was only going to tell them that she was wrong but, hey, God can solve anything. Abandoning God was going to be the last thing they'd donat their time of need.
They are as much victims as their daughter. Their ignorance has been institutionally ingrained in them since birth and they are no more obliged to denounce their faith than their daughter was obliged to live as a male, just to make the other party happy.
We can sit here as atheist or agnostic and judge these people but without a time machine to go back and set these people straight as children, you aren't going to break the programming.
I wouldn't say they are close to "as much" as victims as their daughter is, but I don't disagree with your sentiment. I think the effects of her actions are seriously damaging and that she does need to have some serious introspection (which, judging by her insulting of the transgender community and her blaming the transgender community for her daughter's death in certain online places is rather unlikely to happen I'm afraid), but I also totally agree that she is the result of massive social pressure and indoctrination regarding religion and topics like surrounding LGBT.
The reason though I'd not rate her as much as a victim though is that it is possible to break the programming. I was from a huge religious fundamentalist family that was extremely strict and made me go to church three times a week, preach at least two other times per week, and study in private my Bible at least once a day besides. Even I was able to eventually start thinking constructively, the second I first saw Carl Sagan's Cosmos when I was nine or ten years old. But it's still extremely difficult for many and there is no doubt she likely did not feel she was doing something wrong due to this indoctrination.
This issue is quite complicated because I don't believe it's necessarily constructive to just say something as simple as "religion is the problem here." But on the other hand, it is impossible to remove the connection entirely. It clearly played a big role here.
The reason though I'd not rate her as much as a victim though is that it is possible to break the programming. I was from a huge religious fundamentalist family that was extremely strict and made me go to church three times a week, preach at least two other times per week, and study in private my Bible at least once a day besides. Even I was able to eventually start thinking constructively, the second I first saw Carl Sagan's Cosmos when I was nine or ten years old. But it's still extremely difficult for many and there is no doubt she likely did not feel she was doing something wrong due to this indoctrination.
This issue is quite complicated because I don't believe it's necessarily constructive to just say something as simple as "religion is the problem here." But on the other hand, it is impossible to remove the connection entirely. It clearly played a big role here.
no, the parents aren't "just as much of victims". That's pretty ignorant to say.
so because they are religious they are allowed (and supposed to be forgiven for) to completely lack a sense of moral responsibility and logic? okay. I think it speaks to their intelligence moreso than the 'programming'. Not every devout Christian thinks and behaves like these parents do.
so because they are religious they are allowed (and supposed to be forgiven for) to completely lack a sense of moral responsibility and logic? okay. I think it speaks to their intelligence moreso than the 'programming'. Not every devout Christian thinks and behaves like these parents do.
No. Nope. Not even close. I get what you're trying to say but that is just flat out untrue.
I just can't agree with this.
Religion does have some role to play, but I've met ALOT of Faith filled parents that are good to Gay/Trans Children and would never do this.
Even if it's programmed, people still have a choice, they could choose to drop Religion or understand that God would want them to be there for their daughter even if she was living in sin.
No offense to you, I just know to many good hearted Christians for me to buy into this.
JasonUresti
Member
My sympathies to the driver. The girl is now beyond pain, her parents for all they did to help make this happen don't inspire much sympathy, but the driver was just some person doing their job, and now have to live the rest of their lives knowing they caused someone's death.
^^ Go Beth, you look great in your real pic January avatar! <3
Right, of course. I agree she isn't just as much of victims and believe that was more hyperbole than something to really emphasize in the point he was making.
But part of what makes these subjects so complex and filled with ambiguity in places is that we cannot fairly completely disconnect the role society and the pressure it exerts has on an individual. To compare it to this situation, look at how society acting horrendously impacted poor Leelah - she eventually committed suicide. When you can acknowledge social/religious/economic influence works that way, it's also necessary to accept it can work the other way as well... create an environment in which one is far more susceptible to believe and preach extremely hateful and damaging things. For example, another neoGAFer who always goes into topics to preach Christianity will smile through his teeth in his thinly veiled attempt to pass on the word of Jesus, while also defending child rape and genocide and even slavery because it's in the Bible and supported by God at points.
That does not completely absolve her from part responsibility in this tragedy, but it does mean that I can have some understanding and some empathy for what led her too to be trapped with a mindset that allows one to so vigorously deny their child the love and respect she deserved. I can also accept that, due to the near total lack of education on the subject of transgender in schools in America (and in most of the world), that it is even easier yet to get trapped in a circular void of ignorance. The more isolated one is from culturally and sexually and genetically diverse individuals, the less likely they are to actually understand the issues facing these different communities. Or as the Nashville Police Chief put it:
An additional consideration though is what brand of Christianity she was being taught. Because depending on how literally they take it, there are passages where Jesus makes parables about slaves and implicitly supports it, and other passages where God supports sexual slavery and the beating of slaves (even going so far as to provide guidelines for how viciously one is allowed to beat slaves before being punished themselves). There are passages where God supports child rape and genocide, and even gets angry when Moses doesn't command his people to rape more women and children.
Given this complex and unfortunate situation that occurs when endowing books with holy authority, it's hard to know how to approach it in relation to discussions like this.
Right, of course. I agree she isn't just as much of victims and believe that was more hyperbole than something to really emphasize in the point he was making.
But part of what makes these subjects so complex and filled with ambiguity in places is that we cannot fairly completely disconnect the role society and the pressure it exerts has on an individual. To compare it to this situation, look at how society acting horrendously impacted poor Leelah - she eventually committed suicide. When you can acknowledge social/religious/economic influence works that way, it's also necessary to accept it can work the other way as well... create an environment in which one is far more susceptible to believe and preach extremely hateful and damaging things. For example, another neoGAFer who always goes into topics to preach Christianity will smile through his teeth in his thinly veiled attempt to pass on the word of Jesus, while also defending child rape and genocide and even slavery because it's in the Bible and supported by God at points.
That does not completely absolve her from part responsibility in this tragedy, but it does mean that I can have some understanding and some empathy for what led her too to be trapped with a mindset that allows one to so vigorously deny their child the love and respect she deserved. I can also accept that, due to the near total lack of education on the subject of transgender in schools in America (and in most of the world), that it is even easier yet to get trapped in a circular void of ignorance. The more isolated one is from culturally and sexually and genetically diverse individuals, the less likely they are to actually understand the issues facing these different communities. Or as the Nashville Police Chief put it:
Nashville Police Chief Steve Anderson said:
An additional consideration though is what brand of Christianity she was being taught. Because depending on how literally they take it, there are passages where Jesus makes parables about slaves and implicitly supports it, and other passages where God supports sexual slavery and the beating of slaves (even going so far as to provide guidelines for how viciously one is allowed to beat slaves before being punished themselves). There are passages where God supports child rape and genocide, and even gets angry when Moses doesn't command his people to rape more women and children.
Given this complex and unfortunate situation that occurs when endowing books with holy authority, it's hard to know how to approach it in relation to discussions like this.
Reading that suicide note and Reddit post was so heartbreaking. All of this could have easily been avoided if her parents just showed just a little bit of support. I'm not a parent yet, but I just don't understand how some of them can't see when their child is hurting emotionally.
Thanks Ami<3
You do bring up some good points about the type of Religion and just how that can be different as there are many doctrines of the Christian Faith.
Still I'm a firm believer that we as species can over come our Faith and the fact is the vast majority of Christian Faith's so long as they do follow the King James Bible is taught to protect the lives of those around them.
However I am clearly biased in this issue, but still I can't help but feel it's wrong to say the Parents/Mother is a victim in any measurable degree to her daughter.
I agree with you. It's maybe hard to find the nuanced tight rope I'm walking in my analysis, but I am saying the mother clearly does have to share some blame and responsibility for this event, whilst also acknowledging the impossibly complicated road that led her to have the mindset she does. So, empathy more than anything... just an understanding of how messed up the whole indoctrination process can really be.
None of this feels fair to really even give her considering the scale of the fuck up and what it caused, but I feel it may still be instructive to acknowledge the subtlety of the problem in places.
I don't think you quite understand how "in" the system these people are. If your children have problems and your first instinct is to run to the church for help (thus the use of "Christian therapy") then it's pretty clear that their faith isn't just something they'd turn off at the drop of a hat.
Nor would they have any reason to for that matter. If God is the answer, why would you give that up once your kids start asking the questions that test that answer?
As I said before and as Amirox has quite eloquently put it, different denominations and even different churches within those denominations and the people within those churches will all let their interpretations of the bible dictate their lives in different ways.
This is why they are victims. Their understanding of the world based on what they've been taught since birth, the advise they've been given when they've sought it from priests or pastors or fellow parishioners has led them to believe that their child was wrong and that God would eventually "save" them via the therapy, via the Church, via the prayers.
The system has failed them just as it has failed so many before them and will continue to fail people forever more. It doesn't absolve them, it doesn't forgive their actions. But it does explain how they could have let such a tragedy happen seemingly cold heartedly.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Blaming religion is easy, but I think that would probably be a confusion of cause and effect.
Christian texts span multiple centuries, cultures, and authors. Countless stories with countless different lessons, some of them contradictory. You can find support for pretty much anything you want in the Bible if you really want to dig for it.
Most Christians don't use their faith as a justification to shun the real child they have for not being the imaginary child they wanted, especially to the point of taking their own life. I have very little sympathy for those who do.
Religion is a tool. Just as a hammer can be used to build a house or to smash in another person's skull, faith can be used as an inspiration to build a better world or to justify whatever bigotry rests in your own heart. I have very little doubt that those who preach hate against others would continue to do so even without religious justification; they'd find some other reason.
The mother is a profoundly selfish person no matter how you try to explain it.
Christian texts span multiple centuries, cultures, and authors. Countless stories with countless different lessons, some of them contradictory. You can find support for pretty much anything you want in the Bible if you really want to dig for it.
Most Christians don't use their faith as a justification to shun the real child they have for not being the imaginary child they wanted, especially to the point of taking their own life. I have very little sympathy for those who do.
Religion is a tool. Just as a hammer can be used to build a house or to smash in another person's skull, faith can be used as an inspiration to build a better world or to justify whatever bigotry rests in your own heart. I have very little doubt that those who preach hate against others would continue to do so even without religious justification; they'd find some other reason.
The mother is a profoundly selfish person no matter how you try to explain it.
Agreed.
Dragonborn
Member
I just don't understand how some people can be so closed minded. How a parent can turn their backs on their children.
I think it's probably the very primitive human nature of wanting to be accepted and belong. I imagine the parents probably have friends who they go to church with who share the same philosophies and ideologies, and generally have a great time. In their eyes, having a transgirl as a child is embarrassing and humiliating because their friends with the "normal" children have something to brag about or insult them for not being good parents and letting their "corrupted child fall into the hands of Satan." You would think that their love for their child would be stronger than this feeling, and it might have been, but some are scared of not belonging that they chose to go against the child.
They lived in ignorance, where they see reality in black and white, and they are perfectly content with it. They did what they thought was best, but that was from their own selfish fears, lack of education, and blind ignorance without any attempt to understand reality or support their child even the littlest bit.
I mean blaming religion isn't really "easy" though, and I agree it'd be inappropriate to try to say it's 100% religions fault.
But the fact is one cannot disconnect the hugely negative impact religion has on so many individuals. Representatives of various faiths constantly attempt to legislate hateful laws into existence, politicians and community leaders and terrorists of every stripe use religion as a justification for their hateful shit.
And the truth is, because of how much abhorrent content is within these books, they are not actually wrong to interpret it this way. That is a real problem. The fight between literalism and the non-literalistic interpretation has been waging for ages, but even within these categories there are subcategories of interpretation. Truth is when you have holy books that endorse stoning homosexuals or killing infidels or raping children or beating slaves, it is obviously going to have a degenerative moral impact on a person who has been indoctrinated from birth to believe these works are the inerrant work of Godly inspiration. It does a big disservice to how serious this issue can be to merely interpret it as people inappropriately using the Bible - to use that as an example - as a bludgeon to promote their hate.
You say "Most Christians don't use their faith as a justification to shun the real child they have for not being the imaginary child they wanted", but that's not true. For example, the vast majority of religious folk polled support the hateful legislation against gay marriage. People who attend church regularly were 76% against the law. That is in of itself hateful and using religion as a way to limit and insult the people for being born the way they were. Even though views are rapidly changing and improving every year, a whopping 46% of the country believes being gay/lesbian is morally reprehensible in the latest nationwide poll that was conducted about it. Of that number, those most motivated to believe that were almost uniformly religious - protestants and mormons and other such faiths.
So to say 'most' Christians don't use their faith as justification to shun a child is at best only very slightly true... because while they might not outwardly reject their kid in overt forms of hate, they may indeed reject everything they stand for and comment about how negative they feel that behavior is. And this is tantamount to rejecting the individual. It is hate by any other name. It drives people to suicide, the links have been shown in statistical studies.
The mother may indeed be Selfish (I think it's likely), but in a society that fails to adequately educate its people on the truth about LGBTQ individuals (and especially on the subject of transgender folk, there's almost no education to be named of), the ignorance that can fill the void is often "closed" by using Biblical inspiration to come to their conclusions. Religion is undoubtedly a vessel for this hate. That it can also be a vessel for good in other ways is also true, but it is impossible to understate just how significant a role it plays in the negative perceptions society has of it.
Pre-Christian societies that had no significant faiths with a stated prohibition on types of sexuality were frequently much more open and accepting about homosexual relationships, for example. Some advocated it, some even engrained it into the very basic cultural and social norms the society was used to. What changed? One major change was that different faiths had different interpretations of what was acceptable, right down from traditional sexuality to LGBTQ individuals. Even traditional sexuality originally suffered mightily underneath the prude St. Paul interpretation of celibacy/asceticism.
There have been countless historical investigations showing the correlation. So even your feeling about people just preaching hate without the religious "tool" would suggest leaning false based on historical precedent. People prior did not simply replace the empty void of Biblical/Qu'ran truth with more hatred against homosexuality, at least not a significant portion of the time.
Her Tumblr has been removed, here's an archive link: http://web.archive.org/web/20141231...ess.tumblr.com/post/106447705738/suicide-note
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked