MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Most of the people defending PM in this topic have admitted they haven't read the interview, they just read a few select quotes then get outraged at how dare some unknown blogger be disrespectful to the man who made populous
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The Trial Of Peter Molyneux by RockPaperShotgun
- Thread starter Pie and Beans
- Start date
Most of the people defending PM in this topic have admitted they haven't read the interview, they just read a few select quotes then get outraged at how dare some unknown blogger be disrespectful to the man who made populous
SquiddyCracker
Banned
British journalism at its best.
I'm not surprised at some of you guys reacting negatively to this, seeing as a lot of the userbase on GAF are americans - haven't seen hard hitting interviewers like Paxman when it comes to american journalism.
We ain't afraid of calling people cunts and making people look like twats - because the truth should never be veiled behind posh language.
I'm not surprised at some of you guys reacting negatively to this, seeing as a lot of the userbase on GAF are americans - haven't seen hard hitting interviewers like Paxman when it comes to american journalism.
We ain't afraid of calling people cunts and making people look like twats - because the truth should never be veiled behind posh language.
FranXico
Member
So, journalists never make mistakes when they decide whether someone should publicly be called a cunt? That's a hell of a responsibility, not sure how aware are british journalists of that...
SquiddyCracker
Banned
If a journalist throws around cunt recklessly and without due cause, they're probably going to be forgotten about pretty soon (essentially, what tabloid journalists does), and that is how the true mettle of a proper journalist is shown - by pretty much only calling cunts, cunts.
Make no mistake, Peter Molyneux is a cunt for sitting atop his ivory horse as he spews out his impossible ideas while twisting them into seeming possibilities using fancy language and lies.
Doctor_Thomas
Member
You need to look at some of our journalism to get a feel for what RPS is actually taking a fairly normal approach when people need to be questioned in a harsh manner. It's a technique to point out why they are wrong and also make them backtrack or trip themselves up. There's a real difference between calling someone a prick and letting them prove how much of a prick they are.
FranXico
Member
Oh, I am fully aware of who Peter Molyneux is. I really feel bad for all the people who believed in him. Trust me, you'll see no defense for him from my part.
freakzilla149
Banned
Oh, I am fully aware of who Peter Molyneux is. I really feel bad for all the people who believed in him. Trust me, you'll see no defense for him from my part.
Yet sadly, most of the discussion has revolved around the tone of the interview and not the many many instances in said interview where Molyneux was caught lying and pretending to be shockingly ignorant about how to make a video game.
The man has admitted to knowingly misleading the KS backers, he knew the KS goal was too small, and he would end up going to a publisher, but he still said "no publishers".
What actually happens is that the truth is veiled behind a grandstanding journalist.
Not really. Especially not in this case.
Son of Cervantes
Member
The guy is scummy, that's for sure. There was an interview where he claimed the Curiosity winner would get 5-10 years worth of profit from Godus, another interview where he claimed they were already saving up his share but wouldn't give it to him until multiplayer was enabled...which ultimately changed to six months worth of profit, if multiplayer ever happens.
I don't understand how there are people still defending this guy, and falling for his "oh, pity me, it's not my fault" routine.
Neverwinter27
Member
Would you lump Peter in with Dennis Dyack?
Well, the list so far appears to be:
1) "That's not journalism he was rude!" - Generally from people in the USA who don't seem to have journalists with spines.
2) "But he made dungeon Keeper 18 years ago and I loved that game!" - Ignoring the fact he hasn't made anything since and past glories dont excuse present con tricks (and the fact he had an entire team behind him - no one man makes a game).
3) "He went downhill with Fable but look at his earlier stuff, its amazing!" - Ignoring the fact he's been doing this con trick since the days of Populous.
4) "Gaming needs visionaries and dreamers" - Ignoring the fact gaming is in a better state now than it has been for decades and every day people are actually delivering on promises. through kickstarter, the indie scene etc.
5) "He always overpromises, it's PM, but he doesn't lie" - ignoring the *actual interview* where he admits to lying, the Milo video, quotes from his own mouth etc etc
6) subset: "It's kickstarter, people shouldn't expect what they pay for" - that one is just beyond me. Admits to lying for his kick starter several times, apparently thats okay!
7) "Development is hard, you always slip dates and things take longer, the journalist just showed how little they understand by questioning that" - gnoring PMs 30 year track record of doing this con every single time, and the fact that 2+ years is a lot more than a slipped date, AND the fact we know they never intended to deliver on what they promised in the first place - from PMs own mouth.
It's not comprehensive, but that's a fair list to start. Honestly, sometimes it reminds me of the article a few weeks ago about why people don't believe contradictory evidence when presented to them. The more you present evidence they are wrong, the more they double down on their initial beliefs. I don't think people want to admit that the guy who was involved in such amazing games from their younger years was actually a con artist all along, and has now been caught literally defrauding people. It's shatters some illusions people seem to prefer to have.
Personally, the biggest tragedy is actually all the people at Bullfrog who were clearly responsible for the brilliance of those earlier games, and instead gaming history seems to have gone down that it was PM from start to finish on them.
(Oh, and the people who had money stolen from the kickstarter, or the poor guy who won curiosity. But see above, apparently they had what was coming to them and it's their own fault!)
1) "That's not journalism he was rude!" - Generally from people in the USA who don't seem to have journalists with spines.
2) "But he made dungeon Keeper 18 years ago and I loved that game!" - Ignoring the fact he hasn't made anything since and past glories dont excuse present con tricks (and the fact he had an entire team behind him - no one man makes a game).
3) "He went downhill with Fable but look at his earlier stuff, its amazing!" - Ignoring the fact he's been doing this con trick since the days of Populous.
4) "Gaming needs visionaries and dreamers" - Ignoring the fact gaming is in a better state now than it has been for decades and every day people are actually delivering on promises. through kickstarter, the indie scene etc.
5) "He always overpromises, it's PM, but he doesn't lie" - ignoring the *actual interview* where he admits to lying, the Milo video, quotes from his own mouth etc etc
6) subset: "It's kickstarter, people shouldn't expect what they pay for" - that one is just beyond me. Admits to lying for his kick starter several times, apparently thats okay!
7) "Development is hard, you always slip dates and things take longer, the journalist just showed how little they understand by questioning that" - gnoring PMs 30 year track record of doing this con every single time, and the fact that 2+ years is a lot more than a slipped date, AND the fact we know they never intended to deliver on what they promised in the first place - from PMs own mouth.
It's not comprehensive, but that's a fair list to start. Honestly, sometimes it reminds me of the article a few weeks ago about why people don't believe contradictory evidence when presented to them. The more you present evidence they are wrong, the more they double down on their initial beliefs. I don't think people want to admit that the guy who was involved in such amazing games from their younger years was actually a con artist all along, and has now been caught literally defrauding people. It's shatters some illusions people seem to prefer to have.
Personally, the biggest tragedy is actually all the people at Bullfrog who were clearly responsible for the brilliance of those earlier games, and instead gaming history seems to have gone down that it was PM from start to finish on them.
(Oh, and the people who had money stolen from the kickstarter, or the poor guy who won curiosity. But see above, apparently they had what was coming to them and it's their own fault!)
Dylan once sang:
For me, 'everything' in te above quote can mean a lot of things in the context of this topic, it'll depend on your disposition and involvement; belief, money, trust, hope
We also must see this specific interview in the context of all the articles that have come out this week (and there's a lot)
It started on Monday with RPS http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/02/09/oh-godus-what-the-hells-going-on/
Go and talk to anyone on the Godus boards here http://godus.boards.net/ and they will be more than happy to give you a rundown of events in 2013, 2014 and now 2015.
For me, 'everything' in te above quote can mean a lot of things in the context of this topic, it'll depend on your disposition and involvement; belief, money, trust, hope
We also must see this specific interview in the context of all the articles that have come out this week (and there's a lot)
It started on Monday with RPS http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/02/09/oh-godus-what-the-hells-going-on/
Go and talk to anyone on the Godus boards here http://godus.boards.net/ and they will be more than happy to give you a rundown of events in 2013, 2014 and now 2015.
eot
Banned
Quite a different situation IMO and Molyneux still has a career, like it or not.
I really do not understand, why everyone is hating Peter. I mean, the interview was terrible. Why does no one understand Peter's personality? He is, what he ist. This little kid who is overpassionate about games, believes in what he says.
Just do not believe everything anybody says. Trust is dangerous.
Just do not believe everything anybody says. Trust is dangerous.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Maybe little kids shouldn't be allowed to take peoples money and not be held accountable.
I wouldn't trust kids to run a game development studio for a day, much less own one and use other people's money on it.
He's been coddled with all sorts of "boys will be boys" statements for 15 years. Time someone grabbed him by the ear
cheers.
BrassDragon
Member
Because he's an incredibly charismatic pitch man. This very thread is testament to that - people still give him the benefit of the doubt because aw shucks, he's Peter Molyneux the court jester.
Molyneux being Molyneux. The interview is really straighforward, but frankly I'm not that surprised. Whether he is lying on purpose or not became irrelevant: this man doesn't keep his promises, oversell his projects, and overall can't be trusted. And once you are convinced you can't trust someone, there is no going back.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Cato the Censor
Member
The interview is one of the best ways of learning about his personality we have. Did you read it in full?
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
It's the people saying "OMG, just leave him alone, he's just passionate and wrong all the time not a liar" who are asking for him to not be held accountable for his actions
You can be a hard hitting journalist without throwing personal attacks at the interviewee. Speaking of UK journalism, I love the interviews done by David Jenkins, and I don't recall him ever doing anything as low as this.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Is asking if someone is a liar inherently a personal attack?
I don't understand how it's a personal attack to ask someone if they are a pathological liar when the rest of the interview goes on to prove that they've lied at least a couple of dozen times, sometimes lying during the very process of giving the interview, and sometimes openly admitting that they were deceiving people and knew it (the kickstarter funding goals and tentative release date).
If he had accused Molyneux of fucking goats or told him he looked funny or he was a big fat poopy pants, you might have a point. But he asked a direct question and systematically justified why that question was being asked throughout the entire rest of the interview.
The interview is almost brillantly Sophoclean in that in that the opening question lays out a thesis and then pretty much everything Molyneux says afterward to deny the thesis only confirms it to be true. .
Especially when that person literally and openely admits to decieving people in the actual interview. He literally said they knew that the kickstarter funding and release schedule were impossible when they made the kickstarter and that they did it anyway because "that's what you do on kickstarter." I actually couldn't believe I was reading him admit that.
SaganIsGOAT
Junior Member
Great interview.
MrNyarlathotep
Banned
Or as the interview itself (which people choose not to read because reaction to soundbites is way easier):
It is really really really hard to read the entire interview and not be coming to the conclusion that pathological liar - as in someone who cannot help themselves to not embellish the truth - is an accurate description.
Stiler
Member
For a long time I defended Peter.
I always looked up to him , that even though he doesn't always deliver with every single thing he wants he's one of the few people that still try "new" things.
Just looking back over his games, from Populous to Black and White, and then fable (any other rpgs have an evolving character that changed as you played? Wish more did), and the dog in Fable 2 (still imo one of the better dogs in a video game, actually useful at finding things and not simply there for cosmetic reasons). Most of his games actually tried new/interesting things that you didn't really get in other games.
However Fable 3 was a letdown and Godus, well that's the big whale here in this entire interview. I didn't back it (glad I held off now), but man it's hard to try and defend the game.
Seems like he may have bit off way more then he could handle and without a huge studio to answer there he just got carried away.
Worst of all is the guy who won curiosity. Just hope things work out for him in this whole mess.
I do agree on dates this, reading this interview it's like the guy thinks dates and deadlines are somehow "easy" to do and if you are an experienced developer you should know "EXACTLY" when a game will be done.
Lets see...
The Witcher 3, delayed.
Elove, delayed.
Batman: AK, delayed
The Division, delayed.
etc etc.
These all from experienced devs and studios.
Still, think crowdfunding was just a bad idea in general for 22cans.
I always looked up to him , that even though he doesn't always deliver with every single thing he wants he's one of the few people that still try "new" things.
Just looking back over his games, from Populous to Black and White, and then fable (any other rpgs have an evolving character that changed as you played? Wish more did), and the dog in Fable 2 (still imo one of the better dogs in a video game, actually useful at finding things and not simply there for cosmetic reasons). Most of his games actually tried new/interesting things that you didn't really get in other games.
However Fable 3 was a letdown and Godus, well that's the big whale here in this entire interview. I didn't back it (glad I held off now), but man it's hard to try and defend the game.
Seems like he may have bit off way more then he could handle and without a huge studio to answer there he just got carried away.
Worst of all is the guy who won curiosity. Just hope things work out for him in this whole mess.
I do agree on dates this, reading this interview it's like the guy thinks dates and deadlines are somehow "easy" to do and if you are an experienced developer you should know "EXACTLY" when a game will be done.
Lets see...
The Witcher 3, delayed.
Elove, delayed.
Batman: AK, delayed
The Division, delayed.
etc etc.
These all from experienced devs and studios.
Still, think crowdfunding was just a bad idea in general for 22cans.
Haunted
Member
I think it's valid to love the games he helped design in the past, even admire and respect him as a game designer (well, back then) and still call him out on the bullshit and snake oil salesman style pitches.
It's rarely constructive to reduce a complex character to just one trait, but if we're talking about Godus and what happened to it during development, it's easy to see which facet of Molyneux should be talked about to find an investigative angle on this whole mess.
It's rarely constructive to reduce a complex character to just one trait, but if we're talking about Godus and what happened to it during development, it's easy to see which facet of Molyneux should be talked about to find an investigative angle on this whole mess.
That's not correct. The RPS interviewer emphasizes that delays happen but also:
1) that has been over two years and the game still isn't listed as over 50% done on Kickstarter and many of it's key features exist in no form whatsoever
2) Molyneux litteraly admits in this interview that he knew when they kickstarted it that the date was crap.
These are things the RPS interviewer emphasizes. He isn't jumping all over Molyneux because there is any delay whatsoever. He openly acknowledges that delays happen but not to this extent and not with the people responsible admitting to knowing they were giving a deceptive timeframe from the start.
magnumpy
Member
it's too bad but peoples personal motivations are rarely flaunted in public. is he a pathological liar, unable to help himself, believing his own lies? is he just a charismatic liar who is completely aware that his lies are actual lies? it's somewhat anecdotal at this point, the important thing is that he is a liar and a cheat. whether or not he is conscious of his own lies is just a piece of irrelevant trivia.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Why do you feel the need to defend it even though you don't know the specifics?
I respond to people who have responded to me. It a courtesy. And defend isn't really the right word in that connotation. More like I am correcting the poster's presumption and trying to redirect the focus back to the point of my post which was to say that it is a common practice for teams to shift personnel even before a project is completely finished.
ShadowKingpin
Member
I actually admire this style of interviewing. Yeah, it may come off brutal, but if I donated money to that Kickstarter, I would probably have questions similar to RPS's.
"My question wasn't 'do you shit the bed uncontrollably at night,', it was 'do you sometimes have troubly controlling your bowels when you sleep'."
I dunno, I have a hard time sympathizing with the argument of "asking someone if they're a pathological liar right off the bat is a totally valid question that anybody would truthfully answer!"
Like, we can all debate on whether we personally think it is appropriate to go through an interview with that kind of tone and intention, personally I'd rather have my journalists not act like a vindictive, out-for-blood kickstarter backer as that would set a pretty bad precedent, but overall I don't get the argument of "it's totally a common and non-confrontational question"
ZackieChan
Member
I agree with your proposition that some personnel should be moved off of the project. But the designer seemingly having nothing to do with it anymore? And leaving two people on the game that has entire modules incomplete, while apparently making millions of dollars in IAP (by PM's own admission)? One of whom was an unpaid intern until very recently, the other of which is currently an intern?
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
The craziest thing about this whole range of stories is how this guy has managed to cultivate this 'creating games for the passion, not the money, he's just totally misunderstood' persona with the gaming public. That's all well and good when you're not deceiving people and taking their money then not following through because you wanted to work on something else.
He's obviously very used to playing the victim when someone rightly calls him out on his shit, it almost seems like his natural response to any honest criticism or questioning.
Absolutely depressing and brutal read. Molyneux did lie, but the depressing part to me is his tone throughout the entire interview. It smacks of someone going through a mid-life crisis and desperately trying to stay relevant ("we're going to make a great game and no one will care about this in 20 years, I swear" while the game they actually have is terrible and broken, and they're too understaffed and disorganized to actually turn it into a great game). Reminds me of the movie Birdman.
It's true that people lie about things to sell themselves, in every industry, and in fact Kickstarter as a business model even kind of encourages this (as Molyneux points out). But the interview isn't about that. It isn't some expose of corruption in the videogame industry, it's a public humiliation of one specific person. Granted, I'm maybe not the target audience of the interview because I didn't back Godus and I don't really have any interest in it, but it seems kind of unnecessary to me?
It's true that people lie about things to sell themselves, in every industry, and in fact Kickstarter as a business model even kind of encourages this (as Molyneux points out). But the interview isn't about that. It isn't some expose of corruption in the videogame industry, it's a public humiliation of one specific person. Granted, I'm maybe not the target audience of the interview because I didn't back Godus and I don't really have any interest in it, but it seems kind of unnecessary to me?
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
While I get that the interview is really uncomfortable, I think it's valid to call him out - you can't be a figurehead and use the gaming press to your advantage and then cower away when someone calls you on your shit. It's not a personal attack so much as an attack on how he has knowingly oversold and deceived people - and I think more of this should happen.
Clearly things have come to a point with this studio and Molyneux in particular and people have had enough. Taking funds from backers then basically claiming "I didn't know" and moving on to a new project then lying about who's working on in isn't taking responsibility or a proper way to respond. His preferred response seems to be "Oh, did I say that? Let me just check with a colleague... Ok, I did say that but it's not what i meant".
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Reminds me of when people were defending Chris Taylor's actions during Wildman.
"Who cares if he fired everyone and his company is going under? He is following his dream."
The Silver
Member
This interview was over a decade's build up of frustration, all of Peter's embellishments and lies coming back at him in one fell swoop.
Being "passionate" is not an excuse for constantly doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Being "passionate" is not an excuse for constantly doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
It's truthism. Asking if someone is a liar implies that lying is bad.
How can a liar answer that properly? They say no, it fits squarely in the truthism agenda. If they say yes, then it also fits in the truthism agenda.
This discriminates against people who don't perceive events as you do. Move beyond your narrow limits please.
They aren't too understaffed and disorganised. They've already moved on from Godus and started on their next game. They never had any intention of fulfilling those kickstarter promises. It's a lie. And one that really should have legal ramifications for them.
It's not really true for indies though. They tend to be working one project at a time primarily.
For some reason this made a great deal of sense to me for a moment.
IdreamofHIME
Member
We're all a bit sick of Kotaku and Polygon, but going in the complete opposite direction and acting like an asshole with your questions isn't good journalism either.
His interview reminds me of Dermot Murnaghan from Sky news, a little snot of man who thinks he's better than who he's interviewing.....or maybe even Jeremy Kyle.
His interview reminds me of Dermot Murnaghan from Sky news, a little snot of man who thinks he's better than who he's interviewing.....or maybe even Jeremy Kyle.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I think Molyneux is magnitudes worse than Dyack. The worst allegations against Dyack (mismanaging funds for Xmen and mistreating employees) are still unproven, and he has never actually taken money from fans or repeatedly lied to them. Yet somehow he is far, far more vilified than Molyneux. Go figure.
Ollie Pooch
In a perfect world, we'd all be homersexual
I don't see the comparison. Jeremy Kyle is a bottom feeding shitbag feigning concern for people while standing on their back. (As an aside, I loved Jennifer Suanders' Vivienne Vyle version of him)
I think someone who dodges and weaves around the truth like Molyneux needs an interviewer who is a little on the nose. It's not about proving 'this guy is a grade-a asshole' and destroying his personal reputation, it's actually getting him to admit that he IS liable and responsible for screwing people out of a fairly decent amount of cash.
People can put it down to 'it's Kickstarter, you took the risk' all they want but the fact is people paid for something in good faith on the promise of multiplayer and other things that this company now, evidently, has no intention of providing or completing. Also don't forget he got donations knowing a) it wouldn't be enough money to complete what he promised and b) the ludicrous timeline he proposed wasn't workable. I'm sorry, but using excuses like 'I'm just so busy, I don't have a social life' is a load of rubbish. Just namedropping Cheryl from the canteen as working on the game doesn't instantly convince people you're still committed to your promises. He's too 'busy' because he's focused all their resources onto another game!
I mean, fuck. He used the general public as an experiment in microtransactions and PR to create hype for his game, then failed 100% to follow through on his promise to the 'winner' to the point of FORGETTING about him and not even realising that 'someone' (whoever that was, but they've now left the industry!) on his staff wasn't even in touch with the guy anymore. The only reason he's even commenting on these glaring issues is because he's been called out on it big time. It's pretty disgraceful.