Support NeoGAF

[RipperGrim]

It's the politician's conundrum.

A politician will promise you things and you vote for him/her to get those things. Unless you live in somewhere like Russia or NK.

A game maker will promise you things and you give him/her money to get those things. Unless the game maker is Peter Molyneux.

However, in the end: the politician will do nothing but steal to fill his own pockets. The game maker will back down from the promises because they end up being too difficult to realize, too expensive to make or upon closer inspection, they do not hold up. By that time, the game maker already has the money, so fuck those who pre-ordered or backed his crowdfunding scheme.

It's as old as the world itself.

Yea when a person makes promises that costs people money they deserves all the shit flung at them.

I am more talking about game journalists, I have no clue what gamers want from them if it's not something like this interview.

 

[glaurung]

Yea when a person makes promises that costs people money they deserves all the shit flung at them.

I am more talking about game journalists, I have no clue what gamers what from them if it's not something like this interview.

When push comes to shove, I expect that some educated gamers want the games media journalists do their job. And calling bullshit developers out on their nonsense is a good thing. Massive faceless corporations like EA or Ubi can simply funnel these questions through a stonewall PR department/company and the journalist gets shot down.

With smaller developers and people with real names, harsh questions need to be asked and answered. If the developer's reputation gets damaged in process, so be it.

 

[JDSN]

Loving this new "low hanging fruit/everybody does it" defense. This board in particular is consumer-minded so to say there is no sacred cow here is BS.

 

[Saintguine]

Loving this new "low hanging fruit/everybody does it" defense. This board in particular is consumer-minded so to say there is no sacred cow here is BS.

Loving this strawman suggesting that the use of the phrase is a defense for the man.

 

[Pureauthor]

He's going for the low hanging fruit. Unless he does this to more developers in the future then I really just consider it a scapegoat to try and wash the hands clean of any suspicion.

Molyneux did have this coming though with all the lies he said throughout his career. Just keep it humble Peter, geez.

RPS has indeed come down hard on other bullshit,most notably Ubisoft's execrable treatment of their PC games and the Simcity debacle.

Interviews like this, however, will always be incredibly rare because 99% of such interviews will have a PR dude who will say 'This interview is over' the second the first question gets asked.

 

[SomTervo]

Read the bloody interview then.

I didn't have time to read the article, and there's an incredibly substantial OP already. No need to ridicule me over nothing.

Now we've gone from budgeting games being difficult to it being "borderline impossible"? How does anything get done in the industry, then? How have so many Kickstarter projects delivered on their promises, then?

That was an exaggeration on my part, admittedly. Has his job ever been to manage entire games financially, though? He's always been a creative director. Ie game design with a heavy slop of rubbish PR? Probably a reductive argument, but hey, I'm playing devil's advocate here.

It really does seem to be, yes.

Thank you.

Spoiler

Props to my main man, you earth-walking son of Mr Az

On-topic/not-devil's-advocating: I think there's a place for interviews like this, and I love that Walker totally takes him to task for his shite – not just recently, but over the years. Peter will have given many interviews with drips who won't challenge him on much/anything, and I feel Walker is making up for that gap with aplomb.

However I don't think every interview should be like this and I don't think Peter deserves to be treated like this by every interviewer

 

[Messofanego]

Former Lionhead dev, Tadhg Kelly, wrote this article about Molyneux so he has more intimate knowledge and seems to corroborate what we've been hearing about Molyneux in recent weeks:

http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/15/the-lesson-of-peter-molyneux/

The other reason Molyneux thrived was that his team delivered. There are, and will forever remain, disputes over exactly how much he was involved with some of the titles to his name (Glenn Corpes, Sean Cooper, Demis Hassabis and a variety of others deserve their credit) but what was inarguable was that Molyneux had managed to create an environment in which great games happened. Though his eye was bigger than his belly, many would say he at least dared to dream where others wouldn’t. And yet there are distinct phases when the Molyneux schtick worked better than others. The Bullfrog years were generally groundbreaking, for example, whereas the Lionhead years were more difficult.

I worked at Lionhead and had first hand experience of what those years were like. It was like the jungle and the Bengal tiger. All the animals in the jungle know where the tiger is at all times, if they have any sense.

It was all a personality thing. Molyneux was one of those people who had phenomenal charisma and the ability to use it. He was very good at inspiring people, particularly younger and more impressionable developers. He thought laterally rather than literally, metaphorically rather than functionally. Every conversation you’d have with him about one of his games focused on experiences, moments, possibilities, emotional pay offs, and other high–point ideals. He would combine those ideals to form an exciting story for what a game might be, often road testing a certain phrase or image with you before using it with the press. This, I gather, is not unlike the way Steve Jobs seems to have been.

However Molyneux struggled with consistency. He often couldn’t reconcile conflicting ideas no matter how many ways a team explained their problems to him, responding by trying to sell them all the harder, and if that didn’t work becoming emotional. Being questioned about details seemed to irritate him immensely, as though doing so compromised his dreams. Molyneux would also get fixated. In one example he had an idea for our business sim game (The Movies) to remove all cash meters because he felt numeric progress shouldn’t matter even though all the gameplay was based around generating profits. It would take weeks or months for commonsense to prevail in these situations, often leaving senior management feeling at their wits end.

His dual nature led Molyneux’s teams to treat him with kid gloves. They needed him to sell big visions and keep the press excited, but dreaded the day he’d turn up to get involved. In hindsight – and I choose these words carefully – subsequently learning that he’s dyslexic sort of put this in context. Dyslexics are often brilliant, but the multi-webbed way in which they think can make it hard for them to be understood, and some of them tend to react emotionally when they’re not. Looking back (and I don’t necessarily offer this as an apology) I think a lot of that held true in Molyneux’s case. He could be supremely inspiring, which is why many of the people around him were so loyal, but had a magpie brain that often undermined his intent. He was well suited to those verdant mid-90s days when there was room to experiment, be fun for the press and eventually stumble onto an idea that shone. But as games became more expensive to develop and the industry more corporate, I personally believe he struggled.

The week that I left Lionhead was coincidentally the week that the studio was sold to Microsoft. This, it seems to me in retrospect, was also when the Molyneux story stalled. While he had made some promises for both Black and White and Fable that never came to pass (later mea-culpa’d and accepted by the press as overeager-Peter-is-overeager) post-Microsoft Lionhead didn’t have the same ambitious aura. It had one solid franchise in Fable, but also an infamous project named Milo and Kate. A Kinect-powered adventure featuring an supposedly-real AI character with whom you could talk and play, it made many waves at places like TED. And yet it never went anywhere, never even seeing the light of day.

...in 2012 he departed, declaring that he wanted to get back to a small studio environment and do great work. This – in retrospect – seems to have been a big mistake. While it wasn’t the freewheeling 90s any more, one of Molyneux’s biggest advantages had been his relationship with the publishing industry that propped him up. With the formation of 22Cans, on the other hand, he got into Kickstartering and working directly for the fans. That was his undoing.

Then he goes into mobile/AAA gaming and pattern thinking (basically, follow the leader with similar feature products) which is not how the game industry moves forward (fall of Facebook gaming). Personally, Ubisoft is on this path, too. How design conservatism has taken hold and it's more about business and distribution channels than ambition. Molyneux's ambition is still praiseworthy in this day and age, ending on a more positive note.

Peter Molyneux managed to do something that very few of us in this industry ever do. He built name recognition. Like a movie star carrying his brand from film to film, he became known as a voice, a presence, whatever. He had magnetism, and this meant that he was one of very few of us who could count on an audience to follow him. He could muster both the funding and the press attention required to make original games happen, something that most of his detractors could not do. Despite all his flaws, Molyneux’s story teaches an important lesson.

Ambitious design, big ideas and bold visions are what propel the games industry forward. When all is said and done, create-a-cash-engine mentalities are only ever temporary, but it’s the ambition that makes video games forever. I for one hope that Molyneux rises from the ashes one last time to teach us this lesson again.

 

[SomTervo]

^Amazing

A lot of that sounds like exactly what one would expect from Molyneux. Those dyslexic, probably ADHD, personality traits of aiming too high and pushing blindly for new ideas while getting frustrated with mundane, practical, necessary details. A extroverted dreamer. It's a tragedy, really.

Spoiler

I once chummed a to get the ADHD test (among others) and also to receive the results, and this is familiar territory (not to get too couch-pscyhologist about it).

I, too, hope he rises from the ashes. (And doesn't leave all that kickstarter money to go to waste).

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Former Lionhead dev, Tadhg Kelly, wrote this article about Molyneux so he has more intimate knowledge and seems to corroborate what we've been hearing about Molyneux in recent weeks:

http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/15/the-lesson-of-peter-molyneux/

Then he goes into mobile/AAA gaming and pattern thinking (basically, follow the leader with similar feature products) which is not how the game industry moves forward (fall of Facebook gaming). Personally, Ubisoft is on this path, too. How design conservatism has taken hold and it's more about business and distribution channels than ambition. Molyneux's ambition is still praiseworthy in this day and age, ending on a more positive note.

I am shocked by absolutely none of this.

 

[jelly]

Tech Crunch article is a good read, thanks.

The last few paragraphs are terrific. Feels like we're doomed but maybe not.

 

[Haunted]

Former Lionhead dev, Tadhg Kelly, wrote this article about Molyneux so he has more intimate knowledge and seems to corroborate what we've been hearing about Molyneux in recent weeks:

http://techcrunch.com/2015/02/15/the-lesson-of-peter-molyneux/

All the pieces are falling into place.

 

[SURGEdude]

Former Lionhead dev, Tadhg Kelly, wrote this article about Molyneux so he has more intimate knowledge and seems to corroborate what we've been hearing about Molyneux in recent weeks:

This deserves it's own thread. Really insightful.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

I may well be absolutely wrong about this, but everything looks as though PM didn't set up the kickstarter to fund his game, he set it up to found his new studio.

The assumption on his behalf was that people would be happy with incremental releases because he was at least doing something, but the reality is the money went into a project much bigger than the game itself; the game was the bait.

Problem being, founding the studio, growing his team, paying for his equipment, all the other associated expenses made it nigh on impossible to get a team of really experienced professionals together. So he hired youngsters.

And given how Kickstarter works, PM probably thought that was fair play.

I wasn't ever particularly bothered about Godus. Anybody who gives money to PM based on a promise of getting something, one day, had this coming. In a way a kickstarter was perfect for PM, as he doesn't have the same contractual obligation to fulfill his stated goals and provide the goods he would've 'sold' in any other sense.

This is major problem with kickstarter. It gives businesses an excuse to become unaccountable for things that businesses should take responsibility for, in legal terms and the general principles of customer service and product development.

The positive of this happening through kickstarter is that it will not happen again. People have already been burned, and he's blew his chance. But it's worked out. He has his new studio.

 

[Alec]

Towards the end of the new Broken Age Kickstarter video, Tim talks about the unfair treatment of Peter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnY0TdkXZwI&feature=youtu.be

 

[Aikidoka]

Towards the end of the new Broken Age Kickstarter video, Tim talks about the unfair treatment of Peter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnY0TdkXZwI&feature=youtu.be

Well didn't Tim do basically the same thing?

 

[samn]

He goes from .."i don't have free time , i don't have a social life , because i'm invested in my work" ... and then AFTER RPS correct him he says "a friend gave it to me"...to help do charity stuff.

YEAH , so busy peter ...

and then again :

People can be extremely busy much of the time and then have a night off every couple weeks or months. It's such a cheap, stupid, dull point to hammer away at him with.

 

[Horp]

Oh man, GAF is on fire lately. Good stuff!

 

[Alec]

Well didn't Tim do basically the same thing?

Eh...I don't really think so. Peter's eyes were bigger than his stomach. He loves to share his ideas but has had trouble executing on them.

AFAIK, Tim has never overpromised like Peter. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Peter is sort of on his own level with the whole "life-changing" Godus stuff. Peter promised a certain type of game on Kickstarter and hasn't been able to deliver. Tim is delivering.

 

[kiguel182]

Towards the end of the new Broken Age Kickstarter video, Tim talks about the unfair treatment of Peter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnY0TdkXZwI&feature=youtu.be

Tim speaking the truth again. Great message.

And can't wait for part two, glad is close.

 

[Almighty]

Well didn't Tim do basically the same thing?

I don't know about that, but I do think Molyneux's fuck ups surrounding this aren't explained away with the "game development is hard" defense people like to use.

Unless developers want us all to believe they are all incompetent with no real plans in place to carry out their vision, no compunction about misleading their fans, and then when they get bored have no problem moving on to the next big thing until they get called out on it. Which is why as I said before if this is the shit that game developers consider normal then I am feeling bad for publishers who have put up with it for so long.

 

[R_thanatos]

People can be extremely busy much of the time and then have a night off every couple weeks or months. It's such a cheap, stupid, dull point to hammer away at him with.

If you accuse me of using a cheap point , why not stop with the defense force a bit ?

He said that he's working 16 hours a day, that his full attention is on his projects so much he can't do sh*t else and then goes do something else.

I'm not saying don't sleep or don't take a day off , because we all need that ..i'm saying that if you have time in your so busy schedule to take a trip to go help someone then your schedule is not so busy after all. Especially since you're late of delivery !

Now escuse me before you take offense of my opinion before someone else take it the wrong way

..because my answer to pepboy is perfectly in context

 

[samn]

If you accuse me of using a cheap point , why not stop with the defense force a bit ?

He said that he's working 16 hours a day, that his full attention is on his projects so much he can't do sh*t else and then goes do something else.

I'm not saying don't sleep or don't take a day off , because we all need that ..i'm saying that if you have time in your so busy schedule to take a trip to go help someone then your schedule is not so busy after all. Especially since you're late of delivery !

Now escuse me before you take offense of my opinion before someone else take it the wrong way

..because my answer to pepboy is perfectly in context

Okay, so his statement about being busy 100% of the time should actually have been about being busy 99% of the time. He took a night off a few months ago to do some charity work. What a scandal!

 

[gabbo]

Well didn't Tim do basically the same thing?

Tim also came out with it rather quickly instead of keeping tight lipped about it.

 

[Haunted]

Well didn't Tim do basically the same thing?

You're phrasing it as a question, which I will interpret as you not being sure/not knowing details.

Because the situations with Broken Age and Godus (and by extension, the history of the two creators and designers Tim Schafer and Peter Molyneux) couldn't be more different. While both deal with Kickstarters and responsibility towards backers, one has been open in his intent and completely transparent all the way through, in addition to providing an interesting, exciting documentary series that chronicled the development of Broken Age. Doublefine are about to deliver the second part of an excellent, critically well-received game (after, admittedly, a significant delay - even past the expansion of scope you'd expect when a game's budget suddenly increases tenfold), while Molyneux has been exposed as a liar and fraud, caught in the act trying to sweep his deception and deflection under a rug, not a step closer to fulfilling backer's demands and expectations than he was years ago.


Consider this: while Godus' backers are the biggest attackers of Molyneux and how 22cans has handled development, Broken Age backers are regularly the ones who defend Schafer and Doublefine, explaining what happened during development when criticism arises. A direct result of the differences I pointed out above.

 

[Uthred]

Consider this: while Godus' backers are the biggest attackers of Molyneux and how 22cans has handled development, Broken Age backers are regularly the ones who defend Schafer and Doublefine, explaining what happened during development when criticism arises. A direct result of the differences I pointed out above.

Broken Age is hardly Doublefine's only, or arguably biggest, mis-step. How many Spacebase early access backers are going to be defending Doublefine?

 

[Haunted]

Broken Age is hardly Doublefine's only, or arguably biggest, mis-step. How many Spacebase early access backers are going to be defending Doublefine?

Well, if you want to attack how JP Le Breton and his team have handled that particular game and strike up comparisons to Molyneux, be my guest.


But don't forget that this was in response to "didn't Tim basically do the same thing". And no, Broken Age has been handled completely differently and - probably the most important factor - satisfactorily.

 

[R_thanatos]

Okay, so his statement about being busy 100% of the time should actually have been about being busy 99% of the time. He took a night off a few months ago to do some charity work. What a scandal!

Still ignoring the part about answering someone else question i see.

Suit yourself

And nevermind that i clarified my statement 2 or 3 posts afterward already way before your intervention .

but continue , it's a great time to make me feel depressed ..

 

[adamsappel]

Okay, so his statement about being busy 100% of the time should actually have been about being busy 99% of the time. He took a night off a few months ago to do some charity work. What a scandal!

Nobody is saying developers can't take time off. What is being criticized is a developer saying, "I never take time off!" and an interviewer pointing out a recent time they did indeed take some time off.

 

[m360]

This is probably going to be an unpopular opinion but I think the interview was needlessly confrontational. There is a way to ask the hard questions without coming across like that.

Agree. I had the chance to do three interviews with PM myself. And yeah, Walker in asking what happend to his promises ... but how he does is without any respect for not just peter but a human being.

And yeah, i like Peter ... as a charming person and a game designer. Of course he does overpromise stuff. But he even has visions for cool games, new features and worlds. He does not ever achive what he has in mind but he's trying - and that's something rare.

 

[fester]

He does not ever achive what he has in mind but he's trying - and that's something rare.

I think this is a BS sentiment. I don't believe people should be rewarded or respected for simply "trying". Millions of people try and fail at whatever - there's nothing rare about it. It's great that they made an effort, but when your "trying" comes at a cost to those around you, and involves many broken promises, that's nothing to tolerate, let alone celebrate.

So kudos to RPS for calling a spade a spade. Hopefully we start to learn our (collective) lesson and reward people who not only try, but also stick with it and succeed.

 

[Sethista]

I think this is a BS sentiment. I don't believe people should be rewarded or respected for simply "trying". Millions of people try and fail at whatever - there's nothing rare about it. It's great that they made an effort, but when your "trying" comes at a cost to those around you, and involves many broken promises, that's nothing to tolerate, let alone celebrate.

So kudos to RPS for calling a spade a spade. Hopefully we start to learn our (collective) lesson and reward people who not only try, but also stick with it and succeed.

Agree. This time he asked the consumers direct money to "try".

His risk with the godus kickstarter was 0. I doubt that if the keckstarter fell through the game would be gone, Mobile distro would have published it regardless just because of Peter and his notoriety.

Meanwhile, awesome games like the black glove did not reach their goal, and they dont have peter´s money or connections to get their way regardless.

Also what a dishonest thing, to justify your kicksstarter as being able to do things freely, then months later cave in to a publisher because there wasnt enough money because "you have to ask for less money in kickstarter".

Really the more I think about all this the more PM looks bad.

 

[moggio]

As an addendum, John discusses the interview with Peter in the latest episode of his podcast:

http://rumdoings.jellycast.com/files/audio/181_rumdoings.mp3

From about 2 minutes 45 seconds if you're interested.

 

[CecilRousso]

Broken Age is hardly Doublefine's only, or arguably biggest, mis-step. How many Spacebase early access backers are going to be defending Doublefine?

How many Spacebase early access customers are there really? The problem with Spacebase was that it sold so poorly that it couldn't sustain a barebones team.

 

[samn]

Nobody is saying developers can't take time off. What is being criticized is a developer saying, "I never take time off!" and an interviewer pointing out a recent time they did indeed take some time off.

Yes, and I'm saying it's a ridiculous thing to go after him for. It stinks of just wanting to pile onto him for anything one can think of rather than focusing on a real issue.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Yes, and I'm saying it's a ridiculous thing to go after him for. It stinks of just wanting to pile onto him for anything one can think of rather than focusing on a real issue.

Calling out a discrepancy between what Peter Molyneux says and the recorded events of what happened in an interview that leads with the premise that Peter Molyneux cannot help himself lying isn't focussing on the real issue?

 

[adamsappel]

Yes, and I'm saying it's a ridiculous thing to go after him for. It stinks of just wanting to pile onto him for anything one can think of rather than focusing on a real issue.

It isn't being brought up like, "In an interview with Eurogamer last March, you claimed you didn't take time off, but this September you went to a conference." Peter makes the claim in the preceding sentence! And what do you think is the real issue?

 

[Sethista]

Lo and Behold, he talked to the press again

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/molyneux-says-talking-to-press-about-early-ideas-i/1100-6426887/

Molyneux Says Talking to Press About Early Ideas Is a Mistake
"The mistake I made is to go and talk to the press about my current ideas."

 

[LurkerPrime]

Lo and Behold, he talked to the press again

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/molyneux-says-talking-to-press-about-early-ideas-i/1100-6426887/

Molyneux Says Talking to Press About Early Ideas Is a Mistake
"The mistake I made is to go and talk to the press about my current ideas."

GI.BIZ: "Molyneux keynote at Reboot entertains, but avoids the elephant in the room."

The press are reporting on his keynote, nothing more.


But, yeah, the man might as well be a helicopter with how much he tries to spin.