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The UK votes to leave the European Union

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A

Arksy

Member
phisheep said:
Turning mildly positive actually.

Speaking as a fervent Remain campaigner I am trying hard to build bridges now. And there are good things that can come out of this, even though it is not the way I would have chosen and even though there is a lot of turmoil around.

I was heartened by the performance of the Commons yesterday. It had a sort of end-of-term feel about it, but it is clear that there is no appetite in Parliament for denying the referendum result and it is clear that there is going to be no immediate invocation of Article 50. It was on the whole a grown-up performance on all sides.

So, we are going to leave the EU. Or at least we are going to "leave" the "EU".

It's important I think to recognise that there are genuine arguments on the other side. I don't need to reiterate those from the Remain side as we can see the consequences all around us right now. For the Leave side, it is not so easily dismissed as the Remainers made out. First of all it had a *lot* of voters for whatever reason. Second, the centralising tendencies of the EU that go way beyond what is necessary for free trade - remember the Maastricht Treaty and Black Friday? The In/out Euro thing that bedevilled Blair's first term? The Constitution that Ireland had to vote on twice so they got it "right", that was also rejected in a few other countries and was anyhow shovelled in through the back door? The crises in Greece and Italy? All triggered by EU overreaching.

None of these reflected in the Leave campaign much, and it is sad that it has triggered so much racism - or in part been triggered by it. It is even sadder that to some extent everyone is seeking someone else to blame, be it Corbyn or Cameron or old people or young people - everybody but the Scots. We have somehow to deal with that.

The political turmoil we have in the UK has been long needed. Our political alignments are based on and ossified in the industrial relations of the immediate post-war era and it is about time they had a bloody big shake-up. There's going to be some serious thinking in other Euro countries as well.

I'm glad that we have not been kneejerked into invoking Art 50, I'm glad that Chancellor Merkel is being calm and playing the long game, I'm glad that Tak3n hung around this thread despite brickbats (and being from Boston does help understand his views). I'm glad I can still talk sensibly to my customers about what is going on - unless there are Remainers and Leavers in the shop at the same time, in which case I divert the conversation!).

And I'm getting more politically involved and I hope a lot of other people are too.

Mildly positive.

That's a lot better than the immediate shock and despair of, what, only four days ago.
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As an Aussie who was flown over for the campaign, I can tell you that I very much enjoyed watching your Parliament in action. I find it really odd that the PM answers all questions directly, whereas here in Australia questions are directed to the responsible minister.

You're right in that everyone acted in a rather adult like manner. I really felt a bit sad that David Cameron, probably the best conservative politician in the world right now, was stepping down. I could see that echoed across the chamber, and while I understand why, still would have preferred him to stay on...but that's not my choice.
 
Z

Zaph

Member
What a complete tosser, how fucking dare he even be in that room.

He sounds like a facebook post.

Tak3n said:
and now France's right wing are up....

Tell you what, respect to them to let them have their full say, our parliament could learn a thing or two
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By listening to people who peddle hate speech? Right down at the bottom of the list of things parliament could improve on.
 
R

Rektash

Member
Palette Swap said:
It's fascinating and chilling to see that after the vote is cast, people are trying to figure out what Leave really means.

I honestly can't see a solution that will please all Leave voters considering freedom of movement will be a huge roadblock sooner or later.

It's 100% democratic and reflects the will of the people until you realize people had no idea what they were very concretely voting for, as even the politicians that were pushing it were clueless.
Click to expand...

Democracy requires responsible citizens.

This whole thing shows what happens when your citizens are not politically mature. Politicians need to understand (and act upon) how important it is to raise politically mature citizens as politically immature citizens are at the center of this whole fiasco.

I blame the UK goverment and media for what happened here.
 
Spladam

Spladam

Member
Maledict said:
Polling shows a relatively large swing back to remain from people who had voted leave (7% leave voters would now vote remain versus 4% of remain voters who would now vote leave). That might be enough to swing it already - I think everyday this mess continues the greater the chance of a second referendum being won.

Saying that, I don't think a second referendum on the same question is a good idea. Either parliament blocks it following a GE, or the referendum is on a proposed deal. That's difficult however because we will have already activated article 50 by that point, and that messes everything up.
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I get the sense that article 50 is not going to be activated anytime soon, even after the elections. Does parliament have the power to block it?
 
T

Tak3n

Banned
mrklaw said:
so the leave campaign is based on wishful thinking. Thanks Nige.

Fucking Fucking twat face fuckwit

I'm so angry now - I shouldn't have watched this.
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he does say incendiary stuff, no doubt, but he is right about one thing, it is in both our mutual advantages to come up with a deal that both can live with
 
M

Maledict

Member
Spladam said:
I get the sense that article 50 is not going to be activated anytime soon, even after the elections. Does parliament have the power to block it?
Click to expand...

No-one really knows - various lawyers have offered differing opinions as to whether the PM need parliaments agreement before he can even activate article 50. You absolutely need parliaments agreement to leave the EU though as it requires the reversal of primary legislation.
 
T

Tak3n

Banned
Zaph said:
What a complete tosser, how fucking dare he even be in that room.

He sounds like a facebook post.



By listening to people who peddle hate speech? Right down at the bottom of the list of things parliament could improve on.
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I thought one of the things this vote bought to the fore, that we have suppressed peoples racism and hate rather than challenging it head on...

by listening (I know people dont like it) but by listening rather than shouting down, you can challenge and put forward your own arguments
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Tak3n said:
he does say incendiary stuff, no doubt, but he is right about one thing, it is in both our mutual advantages to come up with a deal that both can live with
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Sure. But a 'hey have free unfettered access with no tariffs' is never going to work without some of the regulation that the rest of Europe needs to abide by. Otherwise we have an unfair advantage with lower overheads. So that would then cause unease and upheaval in the rest of Europe.

So it is ignorant and nonsensical for him to ask for that. It also exposes how poorly the leave campaign were, arguing that we'd get a good trade deal when no such thing exists and the only practical approach would actually be worse for costs, worse for control and the same for immigration.


I was angry on Friday and the weekend, but I'd just become numb by Monday. I'm back being fucked off again now.
 
Z

Zaph

Member
Tak3n said:
he does say incendiary stuff, no doubt, but he is right about one thing, it is in both our mutual advantages to come up with a deal that both can live with
Click to expand...

But once again, Leave is great at saying what should happen, but not how it happens.

"best deal for both" basically translates to give us everything we want in trade, we pay nothing, have our own rules, and control borders. It's madness.
 
K

Kabouter

Member
Tak3n said:
he does say incendiary stuff, no doubt, but he is right about one thing, it is in both our mutual advantages to come up with a deal that both can live with
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone who matters truly disagrees that a trade deal of some sort between the EU and UK would be favourable. I don't think you can really give someone credit for stating such an obvious fact.
 
cormack12

cormack12

Gold Member
The more I think about this, the more I think this has been spectacularly architected. First UKIP get an MEP position, which let's be honest no-one was really too bothered about, or saw as a major issue. He'd just be spouting bile somewhere else. He hasn't even attended most of the meetings as I understand it.

We suddenly have the EU referendum. I don't think he even expected to win. And now he's on the biggest political stage basically ostracising us from Europe. I don't think he wants good terms. He wants us out and to crow that Europe wouldn't accept England's terms. I have to say, this looks like brilliant and devious politicking in hindsight. What an absolute c**t.

Let's be honest about this referendum. It's stupid. This is akin to saying 52% of people said we should burn witches again and the government blindly signing off on it because it's the will of the people.....
 
L

liquidtmd

Banned
Tak3n said:
he does say incendiary stuff, no doubt, but he is right about one thing, it is in both our mutual advantages to come up with a deal that both can live with
Click to expand...

If I go to a shop and tell the shopkeeper to sell me a 4K TV for £100 and use that line, it is 'technically' correct.

However...nevermind. It is pointless at this point to argue with you.
 
M

Maledict

Member
mrklaw said:
what basis did the EU use to force revotes in the Irish referendum? And can we use it?
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This referendum is non-binding anyway - the UK government could do it another 50 times if they wanted without any actual legal meaning.

And in terms of Ireland, it was more that the government wanted to redo it, and the EU accommodated them with some language change so they could claim victory. The EU couldn't "force" them to redo a referendum without the government leading on it.
 
A

avaya

Member
Satisfying the leave voters is the functional equivalent of treason right now. Willfully cratering the economy.

The commons will not do it. Free movement stays, along with the rest. There is no compromise. 80% of the House knows that.
 
Spladam

Spladam

Member
Maledict said:
No-one really knows - various lawyers have offered differing opinions as to whether the PM need parliaments agreement before he can even activate article 50. You absolutely need parliaments agreement to leave the EU though as it requires the reversal of primary legislation.
Click to expand...

Well, I guess they are suppose to reflect the will of the people, but don't necessarily HAVE to. The U.S. congress does that shit all the time.
 
J

jelly

Member
Spladam said:
I get the sense that article 50 is not going to be activated anytime soon, even after the elections. Does parliament have the power to block it?
Click to expand...

The fact that the EU will not make a deal before we initiate it and any deal we make afterwards will be guaranteed to be worse with none of the benefits or changes Leave wants, I can't believe anyone will do it but all talk of respecting democracy, the vote etc. What the hell are they thinking, it's scary. Are they just faking all this talk until they suddenly say, this would be stupid, the vote goes against our interests and economy, deal with it. Every day that goes by gets worse.
 
H

HazySaiyan

Banned
http://news.sky.com/story/1718563/jeremy-hunt-considering-tory-leadership-bid

ZD3WV1h.gif
 
R

RedSparrows

Member
Maledict said:
This referendum is non-binding anyway - the UK government could do it another 50 times if they wanted without any actual legal meaning.

And in terms of Ireland, it was more that the government wanted to redo it, and the EU accommodated them with some language change so they could claim victory. The EU couldn't "force" them to redo a referendum without the government leading on it.
Click to expand...

Interesting: as I posted above, I was curious about these 'forced' referenda, as they sounded slightly... shakey. The EU is clearly a behemoth, but it's good to learn more about the intricacies.

I wish I had done so before. That's my own regret. idiot.
 
D

DukeLongfellow

Member
I followed UK politics relatively well before but I'm not really familiar with the whole administrative/technical side of things. Even though I assume not (because UK is the sovereign here) is there any basis in which Scotland can remain the EU while also being a part of the UK? If not, are their talks and current stance simply a push for another independence referendum or something more?
 
M

Maledict

Member
cormack12 said:
Let's be honest about this referendum. It's stupid. This is akin to saying 52% of people said we should burn witches again and the government blindly signing off on it because it's the will of the people.....
Click to expand...

Yes - this is something that really annoys me. If we hold a referendum to bring back slavery and it passes by 52%, should the government do that? If we hold a referendum to increase the taxes on everyone earning more than £20K by 200% should we do that? If we hold a referendum that says companies with more than 50 staff should be dismantled should we do that?

We are a parliamentary democracy. MPs should vote to decide these things, it's why we elect them.
 
F

ferrasvansen

Member
avaya said:
Satisfying the leave voters is the functional equivalent of treason right now. Willfully cratering the economy.

The commons will not do it. Free movement stays, along with the rest. There is no compromise. 80% of the House knows that.
Click to expand...

Agreed, wilful damaging of the UK economy should carry consequences, so it's unlikely they will do it, once the electorate wakes from this anti immigration fury and realises the very real severe consequences to their wallets, common sense will sink in surely....
 
M

mrklaw

MrArseFace
Maledict said:
This referendum is non-binding anyway - the UK government could do it another 50 times if they wanted without any actual legal meaning.

And in terms of Ireland, it was more that the government wanted to redo it, and the EU accommodated them with some language change so they could claim victory. The EU couldn't "force" them to redo a referendum without the government leading on it.
Click to expand...

I wonder if the EU could help by making some kind of statement around a EEA/Norway style deal being the only likely deal available to us if we leave. That could maybe give enough wiggle room to require a new referendum because such a deal would not deliver what leave promised and what people really want (less immigration, more control)
 
M

Maledict

Member
jelly said:
The fact that the EU will not make a deal before we initiate it and any deal we make afterwards will be guaranteed to be worse with none of the benefits or changes Leave wants, I can't believe anyone will do it but all talk of respecting democracy, the vote etc. What the hell are they thinking, it's scary. Are they just faking all this talk until they suddenly say, this would be stupid, the vote goes against our interests and economy, deal with it. Every day that goes by gets worse.
Click to expand...

They can't come out right now and say "FU referendum". It's not possible. They need the EU to give us space to revel in our misery and take the short term economic hit, in return for a climb down to preserve the longer term economy.

If they came out right now and started talking about ignoring the result it would lead to unrest in the northern cities, and would galvanise Leave supporters. They need to give time to peel off those who aren't idiotic racists so they can then not activate article 50.
 
K

Kabouter

Member
avaya said:
Satisfying the leave voters is the functional equivalent of treason right now. Willfully cratering the economy.

The commons will not do it. Free movement stays, along with the rest. There is no compromise. 80% of the House knows that.
Click to expand...

Acting in accordance with the will of the majority of voters, even if it craters the economy, does not sound like treason to me.
 
Yautja_Warrior

Yautja_Warrior

Member
Rektash said:
Democracy requires responsible citizens.

This whole thing shows what happens when your citizens are not politically mature. Politicians need to understand how important it is to raise politically mature citizens again.

I blame the UK government and media for what happened here.
Click to expand...

Yep, 100% the governments fault because if they actually gave people real answers instead of arguing with each other, the result might have been different.
 
P

Protome

Member
A second referendum would be pointless and it's crazy to me that it keeps getting brought up. If it has a smaller vote turnout than the first one it should be considered completely irrelevant and the moment that stipulation is made, Leave voters simply wont vote.
 
L

liquidtmd

Banned
mrklaw said:
I wonder if the EU could help by making some kind of statement around a EEA/Norway style deal being the only likely deal available to us if we leave. That could maybe give enough wiggle room to require a new referendum because such a deal would not deliver what leave promised and what people really want (less immigration, more control)
Click to expand...

My sole hope.

They NEED a hypothetical deal to pin a Second Ref on. With Informal talks off the table until Article 50, this is very difficult.
 
Spladam

Spladam

Member
Yautja_Warrior said:
Yep, 100% the governments fault because if they actually gave people real answers instead of arguing with each other, the result might have been different.
Click to expand...
This is the single biggest problem with U.S politics and democracy, and perhaps the biggest problem with democracy around the world, politically and economically uneducated electorate.
 
L

liquidtmd

Banned
Yautja_Warrior said:
Yep, 100% the governments fault because if they actually gave people real answers instead of arguing with each other, the result might have been different.
Click to expand...

I blame the media also. Here in Wales over the weekend the papers were showing front and center EXACTLY the EU money they stand to lose in the most starkest non bullshit terms.

THIS COVERAGE DID NOT HAPPEN LAST WEEK. WHY THE FUCK NOT.
 
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