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[THE DUCK]

What are these arbitrary margins? The Xbox had a peak theoretical TF advantage which so far has failed to materialize. We've had more 3rd party showdowns that have favored the PS5 over the Xbox. Either PS5 is punching above it's peak TF advantage or Xbox is significantly punching below it's peak TF advantage. Again that is not the only spec that matters but for Microsoft to boast that spec since March, the trend so far is really not a good look for them.

You can claim bs all you want and try to spin all you want, the fact that there are articles like this in the first place means something hasnt gone as per plan for Microsoft.

I dont really care if everything has gone according to plan or not. Its the absurd nothing floating around this thread now that the ps5 is more powerfull than the series x. They ate both heavyweights, one might win one round, the other might win the next. I own both machines, both are great.

 

[Invalid GR]

Things are getting really funny when even sites like GSMArena posting the "delayed due to RDNA2 feature" article...
Crazy times.

 

[Md Ray]

So the odd scene where one console happens to drop frames vs the other scene where the other drops frames? Image quality and frane rate is near identical, in all these games, to the average player who isn't scanning every frame they largely look and play the same, plus or minus 5% either way depending on the scene.

The word outperform means to do better than - in most of these cases if you put gamers in from of all of these games without watching the YouTube videos first, I bet they couldn't tell you which is which.

AssCreed: V is clearly noticeable with the drops due to heavy tearing and such. That's not a problem on PS5. Tearing is very minimal, with fewer fps dips. This is outperforming.

 

[Cato]

I keep telling people launch games are not a good metric for performance. What is even more laughable is if the patches and update from ms erases the minor performance differences between platforms. There would be a lot of crow served.

Yes. You are right! We have to wait until the end of the generation before we know which console is most powerful.

Until then, people that don't care about TF or sustained clocks or other weird nonsense will just enjoy the games.

 

[wachie]

I dont really care if everything has gone according to plan or not. Its the absurd nothing floating around this thread now that the ps5 is more powerfull than the series x. They ate both heavyweights, one might win one round, the other might win the next. I own both machines, both are great.

Whole lot of nothing then, why enter threads like these to assert a conclusion that is not relevant to the discussion?

 

[Self High Five]

The proof is in the pudding. Claims of PS5 closing the gap with "special sauce" before launch was just words, but they have proven themselves as of now. The XBOX devkit issues could be true, but until they restore a performance gap....those are just words as well.

The original term 'secret sauce' was famously coined by shill Arthur Gies in 2013 to hype an advantage that couldn't be found on paper (directX, power of the cloud, etc).

The PS5 has legitimate advantages that got lost in the simple 12 > 10 TFLOP calculation. While there is a significant shader compute advantage for XSX, there is roughly a 20% advantage for the PS5 in GPU clock, rasterization, culling rate, pixel fill rate.Not to mention the SSD speed and having a non split memory pool.

As usual the truth will lie somewhere in the middle. Xbox GDK is likely in its infancy and will get better over time, but that doesn't do away the other advantages the PS5 has. Both systems will be trading blows for the foreseeable future.

 

[Alphagear]

Sony didnt?

What do you think?

So the odd scene where one console happens to drop frames vs the other scene where the other drops frames? Image quality and frane rate is near identical, in all these games, to the average player who isn't scanning every frame they largely look and play the same, plus or minus 5% either way depending on the scene.

The word outperform means to do better than - in most of these cases if you put gamers in from of all of these games without watching the YouTube videos first, I bet they couldn't tell you which is which.

Mate, this topic should never have been a discussion. That says alot.

We heard there was a 30% power difference in favor of XSX yet somehow PS5 is not just on par but outperforming the XSX. Go figure.

 

[Md Ray]

What are these arbitrary margins? The Xbox had a peak theoretical TF advantage which so far has failed to materialize. We've had more 3rd party showdowns that have favored the PS5 over the Xbox. Either PS5 is punching above it's peak TF advantage or Xbox is significantly punching below it's peak TF advantage. Again that is not the only spec that matters but for Microsoft to boast that spec since March, the trend so far is really not a good look for them.

You can claim bs all you want and try to spin all you want, the fact that there are articles like this in the first place means something hasnt gone as per plan for Xbox.

It is likely that, as Mark Cerny said, it's much harder to utilize all the CUs on XSX. And the higher clock speed of PS5 is paying off. If you look deeper, beyond TF, the PS5 GPU's pixel fillrate, rasterization rate are all 22% faster than XSX GPU. This is a smart way to achieve higher performance at lower cost.

 

[Vae_Victis]

Tools will get better, but the hardware is final. The issue here is that devs didn't have final MS hardware until more recently.

Digital Foundry was given a complete preview of the Series X and all of its specs, including a physical teardown of the unit, back in March:

Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …

www.eurogamer.net

I think it's fair to assume that the hardware has been finalized since at least then?

 

[longdi]

The original term 'secret sauce' was famously coined by shill Arthur Gies in 2013 to hype an advantage that couldn't be found on paper (directX, power of the cloud, etc).

The PS5 has legitimate advantages that got lost in the simple 12 > 10 TFLOP calculation. While there is a significant shader compute advantage for XSX, there is roughly a 20% advantage for the PS5 in GPU clock, rasterization, culling rate, pixel fill rate.Not to mention the SSD speed and having a non split memory pool.

As usual the truth will lie somewhere in the middle. Xbox GDK is likely in its infancy and will get better over time, but that doesn't do away the other advantages the PS5 has. Both systems will be trading blows for the foreseeable future.

Ps5 gpu advantage comes from its higher core clocks. My only concern is how much room can that run should a future multiplatform game hits the apu hard.

While the new 6800 gpus can run current designed games at 2.2~2.3ghz. We have to acknowledge the standalone gpu have various enablers like sole consumption of >200w++ through their own vrms, a kg of heatsink metal cooled by tri-fans sitting on the large die.

Consoles don't have such single piece benefits. I wonder if future games start hitting the avx2 parts, in addition to RT, there will be lots of contention for the 'lite' ~300w psu in the consoles.

 

[DinoD]

It is likely that, as Mark Cerny said, it's much harder to utilize all the CUs on XSX. And the higher clock speed of PS5 is paying off. If you look deeper, beyond TF, the PS5 GPU's pixel fillrate, rasterization rate are all 22% faster than XSX GPU. This is a smart way to achieve higher performance at lower cost.

That. Plus PS5 APU engineering wasn't constrained by having to serve for the dual purpose like XBOX SX APU.

Regards

Edit: Addendum. I therefore generally think that PS5 APU is better solution to achieve best performance within the possible TDP for a console. I also think that XBOX SX APU can only be fully utilised as a server APU.

 

[DinoD]

So much fear. Just go enjoy your favorite box.

I wish that you could actually do this yourself.
Regards

 

[Evilms]

With a joker : Call Fail Spencer

tom warren doesn't want to assume he's a fucking Xbots fanboy and big hater Sony

 

[Panajev2001a]

That. Plus PS5 APU engineering wasn't constrained by having to serve for the dual purpose like XBOX SX APU.

Regards

Edit: Addendum. I therefore generally think that PS5 APU is better solution to achieve best performance within the possible TDP for a console. I also think that XBOX SX APU can only be fully utilised as a server APU.

For both consoles people forget the advantages of designing HW and SW together. Look at what Apple was able to achieve with the M1 chip (switching memory ordering mode when running x86 code to help x86 emulation run at near native speed more easily and many other tricks that make macOS a lot faster and power efficient).

 

[Kumomeme]

It is likely that, as Mark Cerny said, it's much harder to utilize all the CUs on XSX. And the higher clock speed of PS5 is paying off. If you look deeper, beyond TF, the PS5 GPU's pixel fillrate, rasterization rate are all 22% faster than XSX GPU. This is a smart way to achieve higher performance at lower cost.

this is what the crytek developers said before too. small number cu should be easier to utilize than larger number and he also said ps5 should be easier to achieve full performance than xsx.

 

[DinoD]

With a joker : Call Fail Spencer

tom warren doesn't want to assume he's a fucking Xbots fanboy and big hater Sony

TBH. I didnt know about him until late last year. With string of his tweets over the last 12 months. He's an embarrassment to gaming journalism and the gaming community in general. I am also being very gracious with this comment.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

I am still not convinced that this result is what we will see through all of this generation.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Guy, are you talking about bottlenecks? Don´t you think microsoft engineers thought on this before you? Please, trust a little bit more in the profesionals of hardware sector. Maybe you can tell them how to do their work.

The problem is partly DX12 and cross compatibility of GDK with Series S and PC. Outside of possible (likely) hardware bottlenecks, the potential for wringing more performance out of XsX is lower as a result of this.

 

[DinoD]

The problem is partly DX12 and cross compatibility of GDK with Series S and PC. Outside of possible (likely) hardware bottlenecks, the potential for wringing more performance out of XsX is lower as a result of this.

Do you state this as the fact (internal knowledge) or just speculating?

Regards

 

[Agnostic2020]

Yea xsx tools are gonna improve while ps5 tools are ready 100% and won't change .

Makes total sense

 

[jroc74]

Digital Foundry was given a complete preview of the Series X and all of its specs, including a physical teardown of the unit, back in March:

Inside Xbox Series X: the full specs

This is it. After months of teaser trailers, blog posts and even the occasional leak, we can finally reveal firm, hard …

www.eurogamer.net

I think it's fair to assume that the hardware has been finalized since at least then?

This really doesn't help the current narrative.

I await the response to this....

 

[Alphagear]

It is likely that, as Mark Cerny said, it's much harder to utilize all the CUs on XSX. And the higher clock speed of PS5 is paying off. If you look deeper, beyond TF, the PS5 GPU's pixel fillrate, rasterization rate are all 22% faster than XSX GPU. This is a smart way to achieve higher performance at lower cost.

Is this similar to what we see with CPUs?

Like Single core performance being more important. CU cores in the PS5 are better because of the clockspeeds?

 

[wachie]

Is this similar to what we see with CPUs?

Like Single core performance being more important. CU cores in the PS5 are better because of the clockspeeds?

Basically the thread scheduler and the granularity will dictate what kind utilization one can get out the units. Theoretically more units, it's tougher to achieve the same level of utilization.

 

[Memorabilia]

UBI just announced a patch incoming today that...wait for it...fixes screen tearing and performance issues on XSX/S, as well as adds new performance or quality mode choice to both and PS5.

A patch fixing these issues was about as predictable as saying the sun will rise tomorrow. Yet Sony fanboys are running around like flaming chickens with their heads cut off, as if the current state of things is somehow a permanent indicator of performance deltas into the future. Hint: it's not.

As I've said before, the XSX has certain advantages and the PS5 has others. It's called math. Fanboys live in a fantasy world.

 

[Alphagear]

UBI just announced a patch incoming today that...wait for it...fixes screen tearing and performance issues on XSX/S, as well as adds new performance or quality mode choice to both and PS5.

A patch fixing these issues was about as predictable as saying the sun will rise tomorrow. Yet Sony fanboys are running around like flaming chickens with their heads cut off, as if the current state of things is somehow a permanent indicator of performance deltas into the future. Hint: it's not.

As I've said before, the XSX has certain advantages and the PS5 has others. It's called math. Fanboys live in a fantasy world.

Not seeing the 30% advantage is the issue.

Games are on par or better on PS5. Now we are seeing patches and those are to put games on par with PS5 not exceed them.

 

[YeulEmeralda]

I am still not convinced that this result is what we will see through all of this generation.

Propose that Microsoft blows PS5 out of the water in year 4. Will it even matter anymore? Xbox needed an early win before this generation is decided.

 

[Leyasu]

A few launch games without their day one patches and all hell breaks loose.

Assassins Creed alone is going to push up the price of crow today.

The Sony fanboys should have waited.

I also love the talk of Microsoft PR, yet every word from Sony is gospel. Lol

Fanboys are annoying no matter their preference, but I think that the sheer number of the Sony variety make them even more insufferable

 

[Alphagear]

Basically the thread scheduler and the granularity will dictate what kind utilization one can get out the units. Theoretically more units, it's tougher to achieve the same level of utilization.

So how likely is it that third parties will go actually take advantage of the extra CU units in the XSX.

More likely we will see parity and the PS5 clockspeeds still giving it an advantage?

 

[DinoD]

Propose that Microsoft blows PS5 out of the water in year 4. Will it even matter anymore? Xbox needed an early win before this generation is decided.

Agree. Its like One X being better machine than the Pro, but for the mainstream it just didn't matter anymore.

 

[jufonuk]

It's a compelling conversation. We're seeing that raw power and better specs doesn't necessarily guarantee a better experience. Could be interesting to talk about why that is.

Well shit. DS and PSP ?!?

 

[Alphagear]

A few launch games without their day one patches and all hell breaks loose.

Assassins Creed alone is going to push up the price of crow today.

The Sony fanboys should have waited.

What crow?

We all know XSX is more powerful and expect games to look/perform better yet we are seeing games on par or better on PS5.

Don't understand your logic.

 

[Md Ray]

Is this similar to what we see with CPUs?

Like Single core performance being more important. CU cores in the PS5 are better because of the clockspeeds?

Yes. I'm no developer but it seems parallelizing is hard even on GPU from what I hear.

I'm not suggesting that more CUs are bad. It has its own advantages just like a CPU with more cores has its advantages when utilized properly and when Softwares are well multi-threaded.

In the case of PS5 and XSX. The PS5 has certain advantages over XSX GPU due to higher clock speed. Like the ROPs, caches receive a 22% uplift.

Games favoring pixel fillrate, etc. will likely see higher frame-rate/res on PS5. Games favoring ALU, compute will likely see higher frame-rate/res on XSX.

 

[Agnostic2020]

A few launch games without their day one patches and all hell breaks loose.

Assassins Creed alone is going to push up the price of crow today.

The Sony fanboys should have waited.

I will quote u soon enough .meanwhile keep waiting. that split L3 cache isn't going anywhere on xsx

 

[Leyasu]

So how likely is it that third parties will go actually take advantage of the extra CU units in the XSX.

More likely we will see parity and the PS5 clockspeeds still giving it an advantage?

Probably the same way that devs take advantage of the extra CUs in grfx cards...

 

[DinoD]

What crow?

We all know XSX is more powerful and expect games to look/perform better yet we are seeing games on par or better on PS5.

Don't understand your logic.

There's no logic in tribalism.

 

[Leyasu]

I will quote u soon enough .meanwhile keep waiting. that split L3 cache isn't going anywhere on xsx

Lol post your credentials. I have not seen one tech site speak with apprehension regarding this. Yet forumite who I would bet has no experience or knowledge knows better. Ok

 

[Sejanus]

Yes. I'm no developer but it seems parallelizing is hard even on GPU from what I hear.

I'm not suggesting that more CUs are bad. It has its own advantages just like a CPU with more cores has its advantages when utilized properly and when softwares are well multi-threaded.

In the case of PS5 and XSX. The PS5 has certain advantages over XSX GPU due to higher clock speed. Like the ROPs, caches receive a 22% uplift.

Games favouring pixel fillrate, etc. will likely see higher frame-rate/res on PS5. Games favouring ALU, compute will likely see higher frame-rate/res on XSX.

Why we don't have more post like these

 

[Leyasu]

What crow?

We all know XSX is more powerful and expect games to look/perform better yet we are seeing games on par or better on PS5.

Don't understand your logic.

??

What does the very first sentence of my post that you quoted say??

 

[Agnostic2020]

Lol post your credentials. I have not seen one tech site speak with apprehension regarding this. Yet forumite who I would bet has no experience or knowledge knows better. Ok

U need to read more tech sites then if u haven't seen it

4mb + 4mb L3 cache . Split instead of unified

 

[Memorabilia]

Not seeing the 30% advantage is the issue.

Games are on par or better on PS5. Now we are seeing patches and those are to put games on par with PS5 not exceed them.

There is no issue at all for people who aren't fanboys and understand how this stuff typically works. There is only an "issue" for fanboys who want to irrationally crow about short term performance deltas that will be erased with a simple patch within a week or two of launch.

As has been discussed ad nauseum, no one in their right might was ever taking random Xbox fanboy Twitter claims of a supposed "30% advantage" any more seriously than Sony fanboys who are currently losing their minds. You people are cherry picking statements by fanboy idiots to justify your own (perhaps momentary) fanboy idiocy.

As for any *real* advantages that each console has over the other, those will no doubt play out on a game by game basis throughout the entire generation. As anyone with a brain would expect, this will sometimes favor PS5 and others times favor XSX.

It should also be discussed that *perceptual* differences are just as important (or perhaps more so) as actual differences. Most gamers don't use pixel counters and benchmarks. They just play. Even if the XSX had a real 30% advantage (it doesn't, the GPU advantage is more like 18%) it would likely be imperceptible in many or most circumstances, especially when we consider that even with multiple quality/performance options, there may not be much or any variation when locked to specific framerate targets (certainly unlikely at 30, a little more likely at 60 and possibly marginally more so at 120).

 

[Leyasu]

U need to read more tech sites then if u haven't seen it

4mb + 4mb L3 cache . Split instead of unified

You need to read what I said instead of posting a slide.

Post the links to the tech sites that have expressed misgivings instead please?

 

[Alphagear]

There's no logic in tribalism.

I know what you mean.

Patches coming to put XSX performance on par with PS5 is somehow crow for Sony fans.

We never said PS5 was 30% more powerful.

 

[DinoD]

With Xbox SS chained around its neck, SX will never achieve dramatic performance increase over PS5 or cause a paradigm shift in gaming. I am convinced that we'll continue to see this "trading a small blows" throughout the whole generation.

 

[Heisenberg007]

A few launch games without their day one patches and all hell breaks loose.

Assassins Creed alone is going to push up the price of crow today.

The Sony fanboys should have waited.

Unless the AC patch shows a definite 20-30% XSX advantage over PS5 (think 2160p on XSX vs. 1600-1700p on PS5), the price of crows will remain consistent.

 

[Leyasu]

I know what you mean.

Patches coming to put XSX performance on par with PS5 is somehow crow for Sony fans.

We never said PS5 was 30% more powerful.

You know exactly what I meant. I even wrote that you lot should have waited instead of celebrating. I was not addressing what should be the perceived advantage of the XsX version, more the fact that you lot were celebrating it as if it was proof of something else.

You knew that too.

 

[Agnostic2020]

Unless the AC patch shows a definite 20-30% XSX advantage over PS5 (think 2160p on XSX vs. 1600-1700p on PS5), the price of crows will remain consistent.

They will drop the resolution more sever on xsx and activate vsync . It will look worse after update (now without screen tearing and severe drops we saw on xsx which means better performance but at a graphical cost). Book this

 

[Leyasu]

Unless the AC patch shows a definite 20-30% XSX advantage over PS5 (think 2160p on XSX vs. 1600-1700p on PS5), the price of crows will remain consistent.

See my post above.

 

[Alphagear]

??

What does the very first sentence of my post that you quoted say??

Those patches are putting XSX versions on par with PS5.

A console which is 30% less powerful or so they said.

Crow for who?

 

[Three]

I keep telling people launch games are not a good metric for performance. What is even more laughable is if the patches and update from ms erases the minor performance differences between platforms. There would be a lot of crow served.

I like the fact that your view on this keeps changing based on the results. You were singing a different tune not too long ago:

Digital Foundry: “PS5 teardown is uninteresting, until we get our own hands on"

It was from the early days of the SSD = GPU marketing blitz Sony had you just knew Sony would hate Digital Foundry.

www.neogaf.com

Same with your 'Halo will look better than anything on PS5' before it was shown.

 

[Alphagear]

You know exactly what I meant. I even wrote that you lot should have waited instead of celebrating. I was not addressing what should be the perceived advantage of the XsX version, more the fact that you lot were celebrating it as if it was proof of something else.

You knew that too.

The fact that even after the patches games are now on par with PS5 is an embarrassment for Microsoft.