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[Des0lar]

Salutations dear Gaffers,

I was talking with NIN90 over Steam with this and we both came to no definite conclusion.
What am I talking about when I talk about the "most played" game?

According to this article published by Cnet, with data from Riot (the developer of League of Legends aka LoL) themselves, states that in July about 3 million users played the game concurrently.

If we compare this to the latest Call of Duty Black Ops 2 statistic this seems huge. Even CoD:BO2 only managed to get 1.2 million users after launch, Xbox and PS3 combined.

Then we have Dota 2, the most popular game on Steam right now, constantly peaking at ~150.000 users during each day. And the numbers only grow, since this game isn't even released. After official release, I expect these numbers at least to double.

And let's not forget Asia in all of this:
Currently I am not finding sources to back this up, so this is all just what I heard over the last months on different sites:

Dota has an avid following in China, some even claim that there are as many as 10 million chinese Dota players. No one knows for sure and what happens if they start migrating to Dota 2.

LoL enjoys incredible poularity in South Korea
It has replaced Starcraft and Fifa Online 2 as the most played game. [Link to the Kotaku piece on it] At home and at PC Bangs.

Both LoL World Championship and the Dota International are the most watched e-Sports right now.


Another question that NIN and I were wondering was, what caused FPS shooters to never get this kind of big. CoD and Halo are HUGE and have millions of fans out there, there are tournaments played but they just never got this big.

So what are the aspects that make these ARTS games so poular?

Is it the team aspect? 5v5, no one can win alone You live or you die with your team.
Is it the simplicity? Probably not, as these games are really hard to get into, compared to FPS or Fighters.
The community? Not realistic, as ARTS communities are often called the worst there is.
The high skill ceiling? This is more realistic, but does the average player really get this aspect?
The huge amount of different heroes/champions? There are over 100 different heroes, so there is a nigh limitless amount of team compositions possible. Every game is different, even the same heroes are played differently when you buy different items.
They are free. Probably one of THE most important aspects, but then again: Dota 1 was popular as well and you had to have WC3 to be able to play it.

I am not so sure what to believe and I couldn't find a definitive answer online, so I ask thee GAF:

What do you think? Why are these games so popular? Why are you playing these games?

 

[Slamtastic]

There are a lot of interesting elements to them.

A shame about the core gameplay (RTS) though.

Maybe I should give awesomenauts a try, I seems to be a moba with a more real time character control feel.

 

[Heysoos]

It's F2P, doesn't require the most demanding computers, and multiplayer based.

 

[Alec]

I thought they were called MOBAs.

 

[vocab]

When competitive counter strike died off because WoW was taking over, people needed a new non babby game to play. That game was dota.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

When competitive counter strike died off because WoW was taking over, people needed a new non babby game to play. That game was dota.

Wait, competitive CS is dead?

 

[Ikuu]

I thought they were called MOBAs.

Riot made the term up so people wouldn't call LoL a Dota-like.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

You list the fact that they're free as "ONE of" the most of important aspects, I think it's THE most important. If LoL or DotA 2 had even a $20 entry barrier you'd see a fraction of that user base.

Gameplay aspects: You touched on it but the co-op experience in these games is really unlike any other. It's hard to describe but you really feel like a team, a team that can be totally in-sync with one another one minute and then at each others' throats the next.

 

[Huevos de Oro]

Dota 2 is my first venture into the genre so I can't really offer any kind of insight or perspective. I'll just say that on a gut level I kind of understand the reason of their popularity. Once things start to click inside your head in regards to game mechanics, all you start to think about is new ways to play better with your favorite heroes, as well as trying new heroes out.

I guess it also appeals a lot to the competitive side of us, plus the satisfaction after winning a long-hard fought game must be like opium (I wouldn't know since I only have two wins haha).

 

[Zeouterlimits]

It's F2P, doesn't require the most demanding computers, and multiplayer based.

Agreed.
Easy to get into, but hard to master, lots of room for skill, while ultimately only requiring new players to point and click.

New content regularly. Earn ability to purchase characters just through playing the game.
Cartoony style makes dlc skins appealing.

 

[chickdigger802]

I clicked here to see what ARTS stands for, still don't know.


Thanks for making my thanksgiving depressing!

 

[Huevos de Oro]

I clicked here to see what ARTS stands for, still don't know.


Thanks for making my thanksgiving depressing!

Action Real Time Strategy game.

 

[Herbspiceguy]

They're the most rewarding multiplayer games for me.
The number of heroes -> number of team compositions and strategies is definitely a huge draw.

 

[Darryl]

It's so free.

The games are so team-dependent that most people can think of an excuse for even their worst-played games. They're designed well to convince you that you're doing really good even though you're absolutely terrible. This inflation of your own skill leads to a seriously addictive game.

 

[Ragingnight]

Is it the simplicity? Probably not, as these games are really hard to get into, compared to FPS or Fighters.

what? mobas are the easiest to get into out of the 3 at entry level. You tell a person that never played a fighter to do a srk/dp consistently. Have fun.


Mobas at the entry level give the player an easy way to use all of their abilities with the touch of a button. Name a fighter that allows you to do that.

 

[Archie]

what? mobas are the easiest to get into out of the 3 at entry level. You tell a person that never played a fighter to do a srk/dp consistently. Have fun.


Mobas at the entry level give the player an easy way to use all of their abilities with the touch of a button. Name a fighter that allows you to do that.

Smash Bros

(in before 'it's not a fighter xDDDD')

 

[PillowKnight]

I thought they were called MOBAs.

They're called LoMas.

I'd say one of the reasons dota is so popular is that it's a fully featured bite size RPG experience, unlike most RPGs there isn't any grind or significant time investment to trying out new strategies and new builds. In WoW, if you want to try out a new character you have to start a new class and spend dozens of hours leveling and gearing your character, in Dota you just start a new game.

 

[theMrCravens]

You list the fact that they're free as "ONE of" the most of important aspects, I think it's THE most important. If LoL or DotA 2 had even a $20 entry barrier you'd see a fraction of that user base.

Main reason why HoN wasn't picked up as much when it first went retail.

I really hope Dota 2 gets on top once released (more polished IMO), but seems most people playing LoL won't move out because they bought stuff already or have to relearn new heroes and mechanics.

 

[Ragingnight]

Smash Bros

(in before 'it's not a fighter xDDDD')

Smash bro isn't a touch of a button. You still have to press 2 buttons together to get something for majority of the moves. I see where you are coming from but even then you do not get the full range of a characters abilities with just QWER.

 

[vocab]

what? mobas are the easiest to get into out of the 3 at entry level. You tell a person that never played a fighter to do a srk/dp consistently. Have fun.


Mobas at the entry level give the player an easy way to use all of their abilities with the touch of a button. Name a fighter that allows you to do that.

Maybe in ST, DP in SFIV you just wiggle the stick and you get it 80% of the time. There is no gauge of how well you are doing in dota. In a fighting game you have a health bar, meter, and rounds won. That's a hell of a lot more than a game like dota gives you, especially from a team perspective. The number of variables you have to pay attention to is completely retarded and not newb friendly at all.

Don't act like FG's have some high barrier of entry. Punch someone in the face till they die is a lot more straight than an ambiguous statement of go kill shrine.

 

[Des0lar]

It's F2P, doesn't require the most demanding computers, and multiplayer based.

But so is Team Fortress and basically everyone has some sort of CounterStrike on his PC.

Dota 2 is my first venture into the genre so I can't really offer any kind of insight or perspective. I'll just say that on a gut level I kind of understand the reason of their popularity. Once things start to click inside your head in regards to game mechanics, all you start to think about is new ways to play better with your favorite heroes, as well as trying new heroes out.

I guess it also appeals a lot to the competitive side of us, plus the satisfaction after winning a long-hard fought game must be like opium (I wouldn't know since I only have two wins haha).

That may be a very important aspect: A lot of room for improvement on the player side, very rewarding when you win, team focused

So in what way to FPS games for example fail on that side?
Are they not team focused enough? Often times it's every man for himself and see who get's the highest killstreak. Are games to short to give you this sense of accomplishment?

I clicked here to see what ARTS stands for, still don't know.


Thanks for making my thanksgiving depressing!

Well, Dota and LoL are ARTS games. Action Real Time Strategy. Riot calls the genre MOBA. Dota 1 invented it basically.
What is Dota 2?

what? mobas are the easiest to get into out of the 3 at entry level. You tell a person that never played a fighter to do a srk/dp consistently. Have fun.


Mobas at the entry level give the player an easy way to use all of their abilities with the touch of a button. Name a fighter that allows you to do that.

Ok, let a person who never played either game sit in front of a screen and tell them to just play. Tell me what will be easier for them to grasp: How a fighter game works, or how Dota works.
Yes this is a rhetorical question: Most people have played or seen at least once in their life how figher games work. Sure they will probably suck, but they will know how to control a fight stick and the 2-4 buttons so that something happens and you hit the other guy on screen.
Now try the same with a ARTS game.

 

[Makoto]

what? mobas are the easiest to get into out of the 3 at entry level. You tell a person that never played a fighter to do a srk/dp consistently. Have fun.


Mobas at the entry level give the player an easy way to use all of their abilities with the touch of a button. Name a fighter that allows you to do that.

I'm not sure how the last two sentences mean that fighters are harder at entry level. Both genres are capable of being equally difficult. Fighters in general are solo affairs and don't require any team synergy that's demanded from MOBA's. Fighters at entry level don't require that 4 of your other friends sit in training mode and learn the same combos you do.

 

[Orayn]

what? mobas are the easiest to get into out of the 3 at entry level. You tell a person that never played a fighter to do a srk/dp consistently. Have fun.


Mobas at the entry level give the player an easy way to use all of their abilities with the touch of a button. Name a fighter that allows you to do that.

Apples to oranges comparison. Fighters and ARTS games require very different skill sets.

 

[The Technomancer]

The huge amount of different heroes/champions? There are over 100 different heroes, so there is a nigh limitless amount of team compositions possible. Every game is different, even the same heroes are played differently when you buy different items.

This is it for me. Its the worlds largest game of Rock-Paper-Scissors-Shotgun-Twin-headed Dragon

 

[bzm]

They're called LoMas.

I'd say one of the reasons dota is so popular is that it's a fully featured bite size RPG experience, unlike most RPGs there isn't any grind or significant time investment to trying out new strategies and new builds. In WoW, if you want to try out a new character you have to start a new class and spend dozens of hours leveling and gearing your character, in Dota you just start a new game.

This is pretty much why I like them.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

- Free

- Came from Warcraft III which was huge already

 

[Des0lar]

They're called LoMas.

I went with the Wikipedia description.

 

[Ragingnight]

Ok, let a person who never played either game sit in front of a screen and tell them to just play. Tell me what will be easier for them to grasp: How a fighter game works, or how Dota works.
Yes this is a rhetorical question: Most people have played or seen at least once in their life how figher games work. Sure they will probably suck, but they will know how to control a fight stick and the 2-4 buttons so that something happens and you hit the other guy on screen.
Now try the same with a ARTS game.

So you're speaking from concept of how to win then? Then I'll agree. The concept on winning in mobas are definitely more abstract compared to fighters.

I was talking in terms of execution base. Picking up a moba for me was easy. I click to move and use QWER for skills. To even use abilities in a fighting game you have to do certain stick motions that can take hours for a person to learn. Fanatiq couldn't do DPs for the longest time in MvC2 days and he was considered a top level player.

Maybe in ST, DP in SFIV you just wiggle the stick and you get it 80% of the time. There is no gauge of how well you are doing in dota. In a fighting game you have a health bar, meter, and rounds won. That's a hell of a lot more than a game like dota gives you, especially from a team perspective. The number of variables you have to pay attention to is completely retarded and not newb friendly at all.

Don't act like FG's have some high barrier of entry. Punch someone in the face till they die is a lot more straight than an ambiguous statement of go kill shrine.

You would be surprise at how even with SF4 leniency that people can't do dps. MegumixBear (SC2 head that frequest FGC events from time to time) spent more than an hour + trying to do a dp consistently and still got it maybe 50% of the time at best.

Fighting games in terms of winning/losing is the easiest to grasp by miles. But in terms of actually playing the game and being able to use all your abilities (not talking about combos) is totally different.

 

[Randdalf]

ARTS (Action RTS) describes the genre better than MOBA (Multiplayer Online Battle Arena) which is basically a generic term for any online action game.

 

[BurnOutBrighter]

ARTS (Action RTS) describes the genre better than MOBA (Multiplayer Online Battle Arena) which is basically a generic term for any online action game.

The world went with MOBA, so they are MOBA games.

 

[enzo_gt]

It's F2P, doesn't require the most demanding computers, and multiplayer based.

Many other games fulfill all these requirements and are not as big though, and DotA & LoL are certainly not the first to use the model. There's more to it. What that is though, I don't know.

 

[Ragingnight]

imo its a few things together that make MOBAs so successful to the masses.

1) its easy to play at a base level
2) mass amount of characters to choose from
3) no time obligation outside 20-40 min games.
4) F2P
5) Multiplayer PVP centric

I think all of these work together to make mobas the most played genre in the world as of now.

 

[Delusibeta]

I prefer the term "lane pushing games" myself. Accurately describes the gameplay, covers non-RTS DotA-alikes such as Awesomenauts and Monday Night Combat, and also reduces confusion with Diablo-alikes.

 

[Des0lar]

So you're speaking from concept of how to win then? Then I'll agree. The concept on winning in mobas are definitely more abstract compared to fighters.

Yes I was talking about grasping the game at a basic level and knowing what to do. Fighters and FPS games pretty straightfoward but most stuff in ARTS games like lasthitting, denying, upgrading items, laning correctly is very abstract.

imo its a few things together that make MOBAs so successful to the masses.

1) its easy to play at a base level
2) mass amount of characters to choose from
3) no time obligation outside 20-40 min games.
4) F2P
5) Multiplayer PVP centric

I think all of these work together to make mobas the most played genre in the world as of now.

Most of this was done already though; sure CS wasn't F2P back in the day, but basically everyone had it and I guess it's one of the most pirated games on PC. Why aren't more people watching the pro teams duke it out then?
The only other point is the massive amount of characters... Maybe this invokes an illusion of playing a little bit of a different game every time you choose a different hero? In FPS games, every character is the same.
In fighters though, different characters have vastly different skillsets. Are there just too few? Are they too hard to master?
Also fighter games aren't very popular on PC. Could that be a reason?

 

[GalacticSushiman]

Because it's the last genre where video games accept their condition and don't want to be something else.

 

[Ragingnight]

Yes I was talking about grasping the game at a basic level and knowing what to do. Fighters and FPS games pretty straightfoward but most stuff in ARTS games like lasthitting, denying, upgrading items, laning correctly is very abstract.

I think its more of a "what are creeps? I just want to destroy the tower", "whats this area full of mobs in the middle of nowhere", "whats this big monster doing here? Let me hit it", and the non-linear path you can take to accomplish your goal that make it more abstract.

Last hitting, denying, and laning correctly aren't really needed at all to play. Watching sup 700 elo S1 league of legend showed me that.

Most of this was done already though; sure CS wasn't F2P back in the day, but basically everyone had it and I guess it's one of the most pirated games on PC. Why aren't more people watching the pro teams duke it out then?
The only other point is the massive amount of characters... Maybe this invokes an illusion of playing a little bit of a different game every time you choose a different hero? In FPS games, every character is the same.
In fighters though, different characters have vastly different skillsets. Are there just too few? Are they too hard to master?
Also fighter games aren't very popular on PC. Could that be a reason?

Well back in CS days computers weren't the primary gaming systems. They were hot but only for suburban areas. Nowadays you almost need a computer. My brother is in highschool and some of his homework requires a computer and internet connection. Something that I never had to do until college.

I also forgot to mention spectating. FPS provide a horrible spectator experience. Its very hard to get into and back then spectating was almost non-existent. It wasn't until SC2 where spectating blew up big alongside twitch.tv and own3d. Even now spectating a FPS is literally a headache to people outside that community because you can usually only see through the eyes of one of the players rather than the whole scope.

Fighters are in a weird spot. Fighting games require almost no-lag. With the internet infrastructure outside of japan being shitty, its hard to play a fighter online seriously. It has gotten a lot better recently in the past 2 years but before 2010 online play was total garbage (outside GGPO which was its own niche thing in the FGC). Fighters also require time commitments. If you want to able to learn a characters you have to invest a lot of time initially and some of that investment might not carry over to other fighters (BB/GG comes to mind).

Fighters are growing in popularity but still not nearly as fast as MOBA. Some of this contributes to 1) needing a console, 2) needing to put down atleast $60 for the game and 3) the stigma that you NEED an arcade stick. These three things alone put off many peopel from playing fighters.

 

[Randdalf]

The world went with MOBA, so they are MOBA games.

Riot Games went with Moba, the world is as yet undecided.

 

[Rubius]

Its Free, its easy to learn, difficult to master, games are about an hour and its competitive.
The perfect match for casual audience.

 

[Bulzeeb]

So you're speaking from concept of how to win then? Then I'll agree. The concept on winning in mobas are definitely more abstract compared to fighters.

I was talking in terms of execution base. Picking up a moba for me was easy. I click to move and use QWER for skills. To even use abilities in a fighting game you have to do certain stick motions that can take hours for a person to learn. Fanatiq couldn't do DPs for the longest time in MvC2 days and he was considered a top level player.



You would be surprise at how even with SF4 leniency that people can't do dps. MegumixBear (SC2 head that frequest FGC events from time to time) spent more than an hour + trying to do a dp consistently and still got it maybe 50% of the time at best.

Fighting games in terms of winning/losing is the easiest to grasp by miles. But in terms of actually playing the game and being able to use all your abilities (not talking about combos) is totally different.

I kinda see the point here, but in my personal experience, whenever I play a figther the process was like move with the stick or dpad and mash all the buttons hoping for something to happen, keep mashing until you get bored. Now, the first time I played LoL was like "ok click and it moves", "push a button and a click in some cases and you are done with your skills" then you get killed and there is an strange felling of wanting revenge that makes you return looking for blood, you manage to get your revenge and now you fell migthy and want to keep going on and thus a never ending cycle was created

 

[NIN90]

What baffles me is how LoMas are so much more popular on Streams than FPS

Some reasons for me why FPS should be (theoretically) more popular(using Counter-Strike as an FPS example):

-CS showcases skill in a much more direct manner. Sick deagle headshots in a row, crazy AWP shots, ingenious strats and much more. Just look at this shit. I watched some Dota 2 streams here and there and I'm always having a hard time to determine actually good showcases of skill on a pro level.

-CS shows what team is doing well right now better. Round score, money per player and KDR. I have a hard time seeing who is doing better on Dota 2 streams. It's really not communicated all that well.

Maybe it's just because that the time for FPS as an E-Sports has kind of passed. If this whole streaming thing came a few years earlier, maybe FPS would have had a shot.

Also most FPS today are not suited at all for E-Sports. Recent Call of Duty are pretty bad about this. Annual releases that splinter communities each year, a ton of OP equipment and a very closed modding enviroment. It's a pity since CoD1 and CoD2 (and CoD4 to a lesser extent) were actually pretty great E-Sports titles.

 

[Masaki_]

Whoever said fighters are straightforward clearly hasn't played them past a very basic level. And, yeah, MOBAs are fun and easy, with tons of different heroes and abilities to use. Also free.

 

[demidar]

Because these games are mechanically ruthless and interesting. The interaction between 10 different heroes/champions and their spells is completely different every time.

 

[Horsemama1956]

Main reason why HoN wasn't picked up as much when it first went retail.

I really hope Dota 2 gets on top once released (more polished IMO), but seems most people playing LoL won't move out because they bought stuff already or have to relearn new heroes and mechanics.

Neither of those examples are the reason why I won't make the switch. I just flat out don't like/can't get into DOTA2. I've tried for months, but just today uninstalled it.

I don't think people should really have to justify which game they play.

 

[ksan]

-CS showcases skill in a much more direct manner. Sick deagle headshots in a row, crazy AWP shots, ingenious strats and much more. Just look at this shit. I watched some Dota 2 streams here and there and I'm always having a hard time to determine actually good showcases of skill on a pro level.

I would actually say that Dota is a better spectator sport, it's a lot easier to catch the good moments, in CS it's always a guessing game who you should spectate during live games.
The bad part is obviously that it requires a little more knowledge of the game than watching CS as you said.

Spoiler

however when you catch the moment...

 

[Moaradin]

Whoever said fighters are straightforward clearly hasn't played them past a very basic level. And, yeah, MOBAs are fun and easy, with tons of different heroes and abilities to use. Also free.

Fighters like Street Fighter do have a huge skill ceiling, but they are very easy to understand on a basic level. You don't need to know footsies, frame data and so on to know who is winning. That's why I'll never understand why fighters aren't as popular as they should be.

 

[Rubius]

Because these games are mechanically ruthless and interesting. The interaction between 10 different heroes/champions and their spells is completely different every time.

I would not say different every time. Like TF2, its a bit random, but most of the time its always the same kind of thing in every match. Its like Starcraft, people have builds and they follow them without questions until a certain point.

 

[NIN90]

I would actually say that Dota is a better spectator sport, it's a lot easier to catch the good moments, in CS it's always a guessing game who you should spectate during live games.
The bad part is obviously that it requires a little more knowledge of the game than watching CS as you said.

Spoiler

however when you catch the moment...

Yeah good casters are always a requirement for a good stream. It's a skill in itself to spectate the right player at the right time.

 

[CornBurrito]

Hopefully they got popular enough that you can have different skill leagues. Not everyone playing soccer is expected to spend hours and hours practicing and getting good enough to go pro. But it seems in DOTA2 that even self-described "casual" players expect you to get good enough to hold your own with every character.

 

[eso76]

I still have no idea what dota stands for.
There was a time when I was wondering what kind of game it was, or whether I even played it and just couldn't connect the title to the acronym.
Then, suddenly,I realised I didn't care.
I am the 1%

 

[Spookie]

Riot made the term up so people wouldn't call LoL a Dota-like.

Dota-like? MORE LIKE DOTA-LITE! HUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUE!