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TRUTHFACT: MS having eSRAM yield problems on Xbox One

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Uh, the same Matt as this one?

Not sure, they are saying he hasn't responded.

EDIT: Maybe to clarify, the thread title here is ESRAM yield issues, and your post link just said "yes this is true" so that is still vague.

I could see yield issues 100%.

Down clocking is another thing entirely and maybe that is what they wanted confirmed?
 
the first xbox had power supply issues that forced them to give out replacement cords with a trip switch in them to prevent your house from burning down.

If these rumors are true, this is the third console in a row that MS has had trouble designing. It's kind of sad.

i wouldn't call this a problem but and oversight the disc scratch issue
 

Perkel

Banned
the first xbox had power supply issues that forced them to give out replacement cords with a trip switch in them to prevent your house from burning down.

If these rumors are true, this is the third console in a row that MS has had trouble designing. It's pathetic.

and smoking hot official xbox wheels.

It is interesting reading over there, they do not have a high opinion of our GAF "insiders."

So far all rumors from gaf were true. Rumors reliability here is based on users history. This is why if Arthur "Special Souse" Gies will say some rumor then no one will believe him anymore here.

Thuway or Gopher are valid sources of information and many people (including me, trust them). Where you have lot of viable sources saying one thing then it is valid rumor and most of the time true.
 

1-D_FTW

Member
Whatever about great advancements. It may just be about maximizing performance based on expected operation. I'm sure MS' hardware/software team at XBOX is aware of what they're doing. Do you have an inside line into how and why they decided upon their design? I mean, you're always down on it in every thread, dismissing it out of hand. So, clearly, you're not fooled by MS' apparently poor or not-so-special configuration. I'm being serious here, so I would like you to explain for us plebs considering your constant lack of enthusiasm for MS' approach.

Why are you so mad at him? Intel knows a heck of a lot more about hardware than MS ever will. And they've made some colossal blunders in their day. Pentium 4 sucked. Larrabee was such a dog they just took it out back and put it down. Brilliant people can make poor decisions.
 
I really really love HALO. But Xbone is such a dissaster that i can live without it easilly....
Still, is there anybody who can live without Naughty Dog ? :)

I can, i hate their games all the cinematic and handholding bullshit.
Love their tech but that is the nerd side of me.
The gamer side of me is a big microsoft and halo fanboy.
 
Something I've never understood is why people are so quick to hang us insiders. We literally go out of our way to give you something to talk about and a glimpse behind the scenes. As far as I know- Bruce, Cboat, Matt, or Gopher- none of them have any intentions of starting a console proxy war. The Xbone community we are just telling you what we heard.

Most of us really appreciate the info you guys drop on us. Don't let the fanboys get you down.


Always trust the bird.
 

Donnie

Member
Right now, the EDRAM seems to be only available on 40nm/32nm nodes. 28nm EDRAM is in development, but I'm aware of any shipping products with it.

For MS, I think the decision was a XCGPU setup APU + eDRAM daughter die, a WiiU like setup with CPU and GPU/EDRAM on separate dies (since the eDRAM would be on a different node), or APU with ESRAM on chip. In theory, with everything on chip power consumption and performance could be better.

Using eSRAM guarantees that there will be little issues when shrinking to 20nm, 14nm, and if there's anything beyond that as SRAM is fundamental to any chip design. eDRAM is not guaranteed at those nodes. I think MS just decided to bite the bullet knowing that yields could be an issue now, but after a shrink to the next node, the decision will payoff. It seems everything was designed with long-term cost savings in mind.

I see, that makes sense, also explains why Nintendo put its GPU on 40nm.
 
I have to admit this is so incredible to believe at times. Everything so far suggests MS was caught on the hop by Sony. It sounds to me as if MS wanted this generation to go on longer than it has.

Despite the rep of those posting the rumour it is very difficult to actually believe MS will release a sub 1Tflop console in this day and age, but I guess stranger things have happened.
 
Why are you so mad at him? Intel knows a heck of a lot more about hardware than MS ever will. And they've made some colossal blunders in their day. Pentium 4 sucked. Larrabee was such a dog that just took it out back and put it down. Brilliant people can make poor decisions.

Me? I'm not mad at anyone. Kidbeta just comes into every single X1 hardware thread to point out how MS fucked up or, at least, how X1 isn't all that special and all the specified changes/additions MS designed/requested aren't anything special. He never explains it, though, so it's annoying to read it when there's no pleb-friendly explanations coming behind it.
 

Goldmund

Member
So the real question is MS can't afford this, not in a cost perspective - but in PR, being like W8 and they can't have another RROD issue.

So wouldn't this be he best time to start figularitvely "from scratch" with this system. It allows the tool pipelines to be in place for developers, allow them to at least attempt to have a message about indies and show a little "hey guys we messed up" even if your trying to spin it back to MS message.

After all it isn't where you start it is where you end up.
Sounds like they didn't adhere to the Cerny Method.
 

Erasus

Member
All this takes me back to 2009.

WODDEN SCREWS
1.7% YEILD

How many worked out of the (4 x 104) 416 candidates? Try 7. Yes, Northwood was hopelessly optimistic – Nvidia got only 7 chips back. Let me repeat that, out of 416 tries, it got 7 ‘good’ chips back from the fab.

http://semiaccurate.com/2009/09/15/nvidia-gt300-yeilds-under-2/

EsRAM seems to be the problem I guess if you believe OP and posts. Is its so big it takes up 25%. MS has 5billion transistors vs Sonys 3. And a lot of those transistors is fixing the bad bandwidth of DDR3. Damn.
 
Me? I'm not mad at anyone. Kidbeta just comes into every single X1 hardware thread to point out how MS fucked up or, at least, how X1 isn't all that special and all the specified changes/additions MS designed/requested aren't anything special. He never explains it, though, so it's annoying to read it when there's no pleb-friendly explanations coming behind it.

I can understand your point. In fairness, there has been no good news about the XBone since May so its easy to pile on it.
 

Rebel Leader

THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
I believe the N64, Saturn and PS3 are the consoles people point at with the "curse."
I don't think 64 doesn't fall in there. The saturn "available now" shit is definitely there and so is the early Ps3

All this takes me back to 2009.

WODDEN SCREWS
1.7% YEILD

http://semiaccurate.com/2009/09/15/nvidia-gt300-yeilds-under-2/

EsRAM seems to be the problem I guess if you believe OP and posts. Is its so big it takes up 25%. MS has 5billion transistors vs Sonys 3. And a lot of those transistors is fixing the bad bandwidth of DDR3. Damn.

I believe it though. But 25%? Damn I didn't even think of that
 

Perkel

Banned
I can see that, as I myself guessed at months ago in another of these threads. Still, seems like an awful big miss for Sony to get and MS to not see considering that they're shipping at nearly the same time with the same visibility for hardware availability. Still, it just seems ridiculously patchwork if it really is just to accommodate DDR3.
.

This is the thing in nutshell. MS designed APU with SRAM inside of it from start. From rumors we know their OS will take about 3GB of ram. Considering this they couldn't just bet on 8GB of GDDR5 ram. If they would bet on it in case of 8GB not being on market they would need to put 4GB of it in their console. Now do subtraction and you will see that this would mean 1Gb for games. So if that would be the case they would have to change whole OS. With 8GB of DDR3 they have 3 GB for OS and safe 5 GB for games. To change DDR3 for GDDR5 they would need to change whole architecture where Sony just switched parts.

Sony on other hand did not plan whole media hub thing. From rumors we knew that they planned 512MB OS. 3,5 GB of GDDR5 is amazing but it wasn't "safe" for them so when 8GB became available they just switched it. As some devs said 8 GB of GDDR5 is bit to much but 3,5GB of it wasn't safe.
 
Honestly after you take physic off from CPUs there isn't really much that CPU need to calculate. Only few games on PC are CPU limited like Civilization and i don't see many of those games being on consoles.

Aren't mesh deformations still done on the CPU? (IE the skeleton is moving how does it deform the character mesh)

I know in Maya/Max/Softimage/etc that is still very much a single core of a CPU operation and hasn't been multi-threaded or moved to the GPU yet.
 

KageMaru

Member
To be fair, the Xbox OG was not well designed. It was just some PC tech slapped together that cost MS way to much to make. The 360 was much better thought out. Even the Xbone is a smart design on paper.

Well I was thinking the OG xbox was well designed from a development perspective, but you're right, it was horribly designed from a cost management point of view.

The Xbone design may be smart on paper, but it's too much added complexity just so they can have their multi-media push IMO. I'm also thinking that down the line this will be a pain to cost reduce, unlike the PS4 which should be much simpler.

the first xbox had power supply issues that forced them to give out replacement cords with a trip switch in them to prevent your house from burning down.

If these rumors are true, this is the third console in a row that MS has had trouble with.

To be fair, IIRC Sony had a similar issue with one of the PS2 slims. IMO Nintendo are the only company without a track record of hardware difficulties.
 
I have to admit this is so incredible to believe at times. Everything so far suggests MS was caught on the hop by Sony. It sounds to me as if MS wants this generation to go on longer than it has.

Despite the rep of those posting the rumour it is very difficult to actually believe MS will release a sub 1Tflop console in this day and age, but I guess stranger things have happened.

There game release schedule has been pretty dry lately no? So that wouldn't really support a continuation would it? Plus, as much everyone on GAF hates it, the X1 non-gaming features can bring in more revenue for MSFT, so I don't see that being a deterrence.

Anyways, both SoCs are made by AMD, and are almost the same chip minus the ESRAM / GPU differences. It isn't like MSFT went with a 100% different hardware design team. They just looked over the proposals by AMD, and accepted the one with the ESRAM. If AMD is having issues making the things at a foundry, then I would split the blame between both companies since they were heavily involved in saying what could be done.

However, AMD has done this before on the PC component side of things of under delivering an engineering promise, so......
 

cyberheater

PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
Objectively I disagree.. More than likely in no case will the XBONE games look "unplayably" bad. Worst case they may employ simpler AA and render at a lower res... but the mainstream who isn't F5'ing Digital Foundry will be fine. And of course the system will still have its exclusives.

Honestly this doesn't change anything.. Anyone who was deciding on consoles based heavily on performance likely already decided on PS4. Anyone who decided on XBONE did so more than likely having nothing to do with performance, and this really won't change any of that.

Not an XBONE fan... but I really don't see this as being any sort of (further) game changer.

Objectively. I agree. I guess I'll be getting a PS4 then.
 

IMBored

Member
Wouldn't a significant downclock now be pretty upsetting for devs making launch games? I can see the games shown at E3 being considerably less stellar come release date if this is true.
 
Sony handing the PS4 to Cerny and not their traditional stable of hardware engineers is the equivalent of Nintendo telling Miyamoto to just focus on games and letting real hardware guys design an efficient, powerful console.

Off topic, but someone really should put Miyamoto in the corner and tell him the truths. His games are great but he should work with the limitations of the hardware, not force the hardware design to fit a very specific way of programming. He literally killed the N64. He moved Nintendo from a trend setter to a niche market on subsequent consoles. Overall, it is a failure.
 

longdi

Banned
Has gaf policy on rumors/insiders changed?
in the past the admin would require a private verification of rumor monger-ling "insiders"...and usually most of these insiders get ridicule and permban shortly.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Well so much for SenjutsuSage's "insider" haha.
Why do you think that? His source was apparently claiming that there's no downclock, but that they do have yield problem because of ESRAM.

Unless it's been confirmed by some legitimate that there is in fact downclock happening, his claim seemed to corroborate what a lot of others were saying yesterday.
It's a fact that guy sucks at math and is willing to perform mental gymnastics but that doesn't make him outright liar.
 
Has gaf policy on rumors/insiders changed?
in the past the admin would require a private verification of rumor monger-ling "insiders"...and usually most of these insiders get ridicule and permban shortly.

No clue, but the emotion has been very high for the past month. Sometimes not for the betterment of GAF.
 

Salaadin

Member
Has gaf policy on rumors/insiders changed?
in the past the admin would require a private verification of rumor monger-ling "insiders"...and usually most of these insiders get ridicule and permban shortly.

A lot of these guys have been verified in the past...either by a mod/admin or by their own track record
 
Has gaf policy on rumors/insiders changed?
in the past the admin would require a private verification of rumor monger-ling "insiders"...and usually most of these insiders get ridicule and permban shortly.

Nope standards are the same. Still have to verify with a mod.
 
wow @ this thread.


When PhatSaqs begins deflating his optimism for the Xbone, you know shit got real. :p



Thanks for the contribution, insiders. Interesting stuff.
Will the information carry any weight with the masses, though? Even though at first I was chuckling at those saying "Won't matter. Megaton games next week. Won't matter", the more I thought about it the more I realized those posts might be accurate.
In the long run, I could see these implications being massive, though.

Regardless, it just baffles me how dizzy MS appears to be right now. I honestly can't believe a week hasn't gone by since May 21st without some kind of troubling news/speculation coming out.

Next week is going to be one for the ages.
 

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
Nobody else on this site outs who their sources are. And clearly I'm in no position to say who their sources are, or how they come by that information, but I've heard from a very reliable individual whom I trust completely, and that individual has said both that this is not true, and that they have heard no such thing. I place extra weight on the person saying it, more so than what I might hear from any site, or even from typically reliable posters on this forum, because it is my firm belief that if this person doesn't know what's going on, then shit has truly hit the fan.

People can take that for what it's worth. If a mod deems it necessary to ask me why I'm so sure, I'm more than happy to tell them why, on the grounds that it remains confidential, of course.

Personally, I have the feeling you're full of BS. But even so, I do not believe you should have to divulge your source to anyone. And if you were asked to, my opinion of gaf would dramatically plummet. Truth will come out eventually. You'll either become a gaf insider with established credibility, or another sad console war martyr.
 

gcubed

Member
Why do you think that? His source was apparently claiming that there's no downclock, but that they do have yield problem because of ESRAM.

Unless it's been confirmed by some legitimate that there is in fact downclock happening, his claim seemed to corroborate what a lot of others were saying yesterday.

theres only one saying downclock correct? most just focusing on yield issues. Gopher said there were performance problems, sometimes significant
 
Seems like Sony's original 4 GB design worked out better. A breakthrough in yields and chip size got them an easy upgrade while MS struggles to maintain its original plan.
 

gcubed

Member
Seems like Sony's original 4 GB design worked out better. A breakthrough in yields and chip size got them an easy upgrade while MS struggles to maintain its original plan.

with MS's original plan for the console (3gb used by OS's) there was no way that MS could have ever entertained coming to market with 4gb of memory
 
Not sure, they are saying he hasn't responded.

EDIT: Maybe to clarify, the thread title here is ESRAM yield issues, and your post link just said "yes this is true" so that is still vague.

I could see yield issues 100%.

Down clocking is another thing entirely and maybe that is what they wanted confirmed?

By confirming the yield issues it almost confirms downclocking as well. The latter follows the former in order to boost yields. MS will have a stated cost structure in place for Xbone, if the main APU yields are poor (and rumours suggest they are) then the solution is to either fuse off more CU's, CPU cores or lower clocks to ensure more usable parts, thus increasing the yield to an acceptable figure.

The problem with this is that unlike Nvidia or AMD with regular GPUs, MS can't exactly release what they have onto the market then refresh the line up 6-9 months later when the chip has been respun and clocks can be increased. If they release a 700MHz GPU then it will be 700MHz for the whole cycle.

The choice seems to be this:

1. Fuck it, stick to the plan, deal with the costs and stock issues (even delays) caused by poor yields later.

2. Lower the clockspeed, get more usable dice per wafer, lower costs, no chance of delays and no serious stock issues. Play down the power aspect and hope the public don't notice the gulf in between Xbone and PS4.

Of those the former is what I think a hardware company like Sony would choose, but the Xbox division seems to be run by bean counting suits, so I expect they have chosen the latter. Waiting for a respin just seems out of the question right now as it would delay the console into 2014.
 

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
Canceling their post E3 round table does not bode well....

Yeah, the timing on all this leads me to believe there's MASSIVE FUCKING PANIC over at MS these last few days. Holy crap.

i only have confidence in verification by mod/admin.
track "record"? how about no...

crazybuttocks has been verified legit. He has confirmed all this. So there you go.

By confirming the yield issues it almost confirms downclocking as well. The latter follows the former in order to boost yields. MS will have a stated cost structure in place for Xbone, if the main APU yields are poor (and rumours suggest they are) then the solution is to either fuse off more CU's, CPU cores or lower clocks to ensure more usable parts, thus increasing the yield to an acceptable figure.

The problem with this is that unlike Nvidia or AMD with regular GPUs, MS can't exactly release what they have onto the market then refresh the line up 6-9 months later when the chip has been respun and clocks can be increased. If they release a 700MHz GPU then it will be 700MHz for the whole cycle.

The choice seems to be this:

1. Fuck it, stick to the plan, deal with the costs and stock issues (even delays) caused by poor yields later.

2. Lower the clockspeed, get more usable dice per wafer, lower costs, no chance of delays and no serious stock issues. Play down the power aspect and hope the public don't notice the gulf in between Xbone and PS4.

Of those the former is what I think a hardware company like Sony would choose, but the Xbox division seems to be run by bean counting suits, so I expect they have chosen the latter. Waiting for a respin just seems out of the question right now as it would delay the console into 2014.

Interesting stuff. I really wonder what's going to happen.
 

Perkel

Banned
Aren't mesh deformations still done on the CPU? (IE the skeleton is moving how does it deform the character mesh)

I know in Maya/Max/Softimage/etc that is still very much a single core of a CPU operation and hasn't been multi-threaded or moved to the GPU yet.

Cerny said in one of his interview that they changed compute power of their console (in comparison to original GPU) because they expect mid-gen change in how things are done.

Right now physic is done on CPU as standard but next gen will move it completely to GPU. Right now we don't really know what will be ported or not that is up to tech wizards out there.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Gopher said there were performance problems, sometimes significant
That would just corroborate what we already heard from, say, Jonathan Blow the other day. That there's performance difference between the machines. But we pretty much know that's going to be there, regardless of downclock. That still doesn't confirm they are degrading anything.

IMO, unless there really is downclock going, low yield won't affect us, the end user in any meaningful way. It will be more expensive for MS to manufacture this, they may not be able to ship as much initially as they hoped, but that's the only thing that will be affected.
 
IMO, unless there really is downclock going, low yield won't affect us, the end user in any meaningful way. It will be more expensive for MS to manufacture this, they may not be able to ship as much initially as they hoped, but that's the only thing that will be affected.

Low yields always has an effect. In most cases, it means higher prices.
 

velociraptor

Junior Member
objectively I disagree.. More than likely in no case will the XBONE games look "unplayably" bad. Worst case they may employ simpler AA and render at a lower res... but the mainstream who isn't F5'ing Digital Foundry will be fine. And of course the system will still have its exclusives.

Honestly this doesn't change anything.. Anyone who was deciding on consoles based heavily on performance likely already decided on PS4. Anyone who decided on XBONE did so more than likely having nothing to do with performance, and this really won't change any of that.

Not an XBONE fan... but I really don't see this as being any sort of (further) game changer.
Absolutely. I don't expect too much of a difference between PS4 and Xbone games besides resolution and AA. As you have said, the mainstream will not notice any difference between the two consoles, except GAF. Lol. Though on a typical LCD TV, the difference between 1080p and 720p is substantial if the rumours are indeed true.
 

guek

Banned
I was confused too about why sram yields problems would mean downclocks but people have explained that the esram architecture is intrinsically tied to gpu clock and would logically be improved by lowering the latter.
 
Absolutely. I don't expect too much of a difference between PS4 and Xbone games besides resolution and AA. As you have said, the mainstream will not notice any difference between the two consoles, except GAF. Lol. Though on a typical LCD TV, the difference between 1080p and 720p is substantial if the rumours are indeed true.

Yeah, no one really noticed the Skyrim issues on PS3 outside of GAF!
 

Salaadin

Member
Im not a huge techie like some of you guys, so its my understanding that the PS4 and XBO were pretty similar in terms of architecture. So why are we only hearing of issues coming from MS and not Sony? Is Sony just tighter with leaks this time around? Is there some kind of major difference between the two (the ESRAM?) that is causing all of this? Can we expect similar problems from Sony? Is Mark Cerny a god-like creature sent from heaven to guide Sony on a path of revengeance?
 
Absolutely. I don't expect too much of a difference between PS4 and Xbone games besides resolution and AA. As you have said, the mainstream will not notice any difference between the two consoles, except GAF. Lol. Though on a typical LCD TV, the difference between 1080p and 720p is substantial if the rumours are indeed true.

Wish i was still that ignorant...
 
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