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[Lime]

HariKari nailed it in the other thread:

The crux of the issue is that modding has always been this free thing on the side that has enhanced games, authorized or not. It being authorized is not the magical green light to profit land everyone thinks it is. When you've got major stakeholders suddenly involved in what was largely a passion hobby, shit is going to go sideways real fast. They are the gatekeepers in a paid system. They can pick the winners and losers. They can decide who even gets to play.

Everyone should be asking why this seems equitable, not searching for some sort of silver lining. The premise is bullshit. Valve and companies that take part in this are going to spin some serious yarn about it being good for creators, while they lop off 75% of every transaction. It's really about profit for them, not enhancing the community.

We're already seeing stolen mods, early access mods, all sorts of crap. This is a poorly implemented feature system that is meant to generate revenue for Valve and its partners, nothing more. If they cared, they'd curate and moderate the store rigorously, and they'd also not be removing donation links. There'd be a "pay what you want" option. There are many ways to do this better, and in a way that's more beneficial for the modders and the consumers.

Instead, we get another IV drip of money hooked up to Valve and we're all supposed to smile about it.

 

[Mushroomer25]

Getting a 25% cut for being a 3rd party provider for something that is not your product is INSANELY high except for apparently bideo james mods

Steam (allegedly) takes 30% of typical game sales.

If we're following that path, they're technically giving modders a discount on their distribution services.

It's the 50% cut to Bethesda for use of their software that doesn't have a comparable precedent.

We buy their games. That should be sufficient.

Bethesda was compensated for their original work when the user paid $60 for Skyrim, and more for the DLCs.

Again. Buying software for personal use doesn't equal commercial use.

 

[alexandros]

Bethesda and Valve get 75% for doing absolutely nothing?

Are you guys serious? Bethesda made the game and provided the Creation Kit, Valve is providing the whole infrastructure. How is that "nothing"?

 

[Shuggananas]

Yes but do you make mods?

Valve is distributing.

 

[Lucc]

Always knew Valve were scum bags not better than Activision or EA. Hope more people realize and stop blindly worshipping them.

 

[Lime]

Are you guys serious? Bethesda made the game and provided the Creation Kit, Valve is providing the whole infrastructure. How is that "nothing"?

We buy their games. That should be sufficient. Modability is a feature that draws in more consumers and modders add value to their product. Charging more for this when we've already given them money is just greedy and exploitative of labor that isn't even theirs

 

[U-R]

And my respect for Valve died there.

 

[Mavromatis]

Well if everyone started giving the modder 100%, there'd be no incentive for Valve to provide the service someone will say. Ignoring that Valve benefits tremendously in terms of sales ( along with the publisher ) when games have workshop support, and that they've comfortably provided it all for free up until now.

There's nothing stopping Bethesda or Valve from picking winners and losers either. There's money involved now. They can promote the most expensive mods, shut down mods that they don't like. The jig is up.

If everybody gave %100 to modder Humble Bundle would bankrupt long ago. Mod collections can do BTA's too.

 

[Mushroomer25]

I might be misinterpreting your posts but it seems as though you're approaching this like Bethesda were surprised about mods for Skyrim. People have been modding their games for over a decade and Bethesda releases official tools to support the ecosystem. People weren't selling mods before this, only allowing people to donate to them if they appreciated a free mod. Now that Valve and Bethesda have decided that they want to monetise these community efforts, they are taking steps to eliminate sources of revenue for modders that they do not get a cut of. The question now is what becomes of other mod distribution networks like Nexus where Valve/Bethesda don't have the authority to remove donation options. Will future Fallout/Elder Scrolls titles be locked down to force modders onto the Steam Workshop?

They likely foresaw mods. They probably didn't assume anybody would try to sell them. Personally, I don't see Steam interfering with free mod installation the way it is. However, if another service tried to sell mods without compensating Bethesda, that's a cease-and-desist letter right there.

 

[HariKari]

Are you guys serious? Bethesda made the game and provided the Creation Kit, Valve is providing the whole infrastructure. How is that "nothing"?

Both were provided free of charge up until now, in exchange for the extra sales that mods generate. They're double dipping. We're making the horse armor for them now.

 

[elyetis]

I find it interesting that no one bat an eye at TF2/Dota for valve taking 75% the past few years but this is now blowing up

Well Dota 2 is kind of free to play, so it's not really surprising that people are less likely to complain about them taking a bigger cut.

 

[Shuggananas]

Always knew Valve were scum bags not better than Activision or EA. Hope more people realize and stop blindly worshipping them.

lol, nope, not even close

 

[Nzyme32]

HariKari nailed it in the other thread:

To me this is entirely expected. My hope would be that people realise from there download and sales data that people do not purchase mods that have had no additional or continual effort applied to them; while the ones that do could actually see some people pay a reasonable price.

The way Valve is going about this is beyond shit. They need to be communicating in depth, but I get the distinct impression they really want to experiment and see what happens further before making any changes. The 75% thing needs a full open breakdown. If you are doing something like this for modders, they should treat it in the same way and be open and forward about what is happening there.

 

[eot]

If people want to sell their mods then it's perfectly reasonable for Valve and Bethesda to take a cut, but if the mod is free and they're just taking donations then piss off. Personally I'd rather they didn't allow people to sell their mods because then they wouldn't have the need to control that aspect of the community. If there's no money there they don't get greedy and ruin it for everyone.

 

[Mushroomer25]

We buy their games. That should be sufficient. Modability is a feature that draws in more consumers and modders add value to their product. Charging more for this when we've already given them money is just greedy and exploitative of labor that isn't even theirs

Your spirit is understandable, but the legality just doesn't work that way. Bethesda's software is a core part of these mods. The content literally would not exist without that original work. As the rights holder to that original work, they are entitled to a cut if they chose to claim it.

Does it make sense in the long term for Bethesda to keep their hands out of the cookie jar, for the long term life of the game? Possibly. Mods make Skyrim more popular. Yet, most people seeing these mods already own the game. The sales added will be minimal at best. So, take what they can now, I suppose.

I could see a company voluntarily waving their share of mod sales to prosper a community.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

If this was being done by EA or Ubisoft we would have a big twitter campaign already or something.

Valve has been making scummy moves lately so it's not surprising.

 

[HariKari]

If people want to sell their mods then it's perfectly reasonable for Valve and Bethesda to take a cut

A small convenience fee, similar to what transactions on the market cost? Sure, absolutely fair. 75%? That's way too big of a stake for both Valve and Bethesda to have in the modding community. That large of a chunk will cause problems beyond it just being a pretty crappy split for mod creators.

 

[Mushroomer25]

If this was being done by EA or Ubisoft we would have a big twitter campaign already or something.

Valve has been making scummy moves lately so it's not surprising.

This story has been trending on Twitter for hours. It's at the top of most gaming community discussions. It's not being buried under the rug by fanboyism. If anything, the "betrayal" angle is giving it more attention than another case of "EA being EA".

 

[params7]

PC gaming thrives on its open-ended platform. The fact that a private company (Steam) was able to monopolize PC gaming, I'm not surprised it is coming to this now. Of course they are going to capitalize and make money off mods now, more profit.
PC gaming needs to go back to the way things were before Steam.

 

[Spookie]

PC gaming needs to go back to the way things were before Steam.

Don't be silly.

 

[Nzyme32]

I wish Steam followed the Humble Bundle's method for cutting the pie.

This would be awesome!

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Always knew Valve were scum bags not better than Activision or EA. Hope more people realize and stop blindly worshipping them.

How cynical must you be to be waiting for something bad to happen.

 

[Rawket Lawnchair]

More like 75%, amirite?

 

[theJohann]

I already had some apprehensions about them allowing for paid mods in the Workshop, though there were many convincing arguments in favour of it; this is entirely immoral, to me, and probably quite indefensible.

 

[Lime]

Your spirit is understandable, but the legality just doesn't work that way. Bethesda's software is a core part of these mods. The content literally would not exist without that original work. As the rights holder to that original work, they are entitled to a cut if they chose to claim it.

Does it make sense in the long term for Bethesda to keep their hands out of the cookie jar, for the long term life of the game? Possibly. Mods make Skyrim more popular. Yet, most people seeing these mods already own the game. The sales added will be minimal at best. So, take what they can now, I suppose.

I could see a company voluntarily waving their share of mod sales to prosper a community.

I understand why they are doing it. But I don't think it's justified or morally defensible.

 

[Ge0force]

If this was being done by EA or Ubisoft we would have a big twitter campaign already or something.

Since both EA and Ubisoft replaced support for mods and community content by loads of overpriced DLC, that's no issue here

I don't agree at all what Valve is doing here tho.

 

[Neverforget]

I really feel bad for the free mods creators that just give you the choice to donate. Steam is being greedy.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

75% off of, what, a .99 cent mod?

Jesus.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

PC gaming thrives on its open-ended platform. The fact that a private company (Steam) was able to monopolize PC gaming, I'm not surprised it is coming to this now. Of course they are going to capitalize and make money off mods now, more profit.
PC gaming needs to go back to the way things were before Steam.

Have you heard of Gog, Amazon, Origin, Uplay, Battle.Net and so on?


Steam doesn't have monopoly. Nobody has to do this.




I am really surprised at some of the responses. It's like early access games. Don't do it. Don't use it. Go do something else.

 

[Intheflorsh]

This is really the Nintendo/Youtube situation all over again. Once again a publisher is poisoning a mutually beneficial relationship they share with the community for some quick cash.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

It's like early access games. Don't do it. Don't use it. Go do something else.

Um, absolutely nobody here is complaining that paying for mods is going to ruin their day. That's not the issue.

 

[PensivePen]

Pretty terrible practice, especially in conjunction with the huge percentage Valve/Beth are taking from the profits. Looking forward to seeing people defend this.

 

[Momentary]

People here getting mad just to get mad. Buy from GOG download mods from Nexus.

"But it's not as convenient as Steam."

Well if you don t like what a PRIVATELY owned company is doing with its service then go elsewhere. There are other companies to buy and download mods from in the world of PC gaming. Help them get to the top. Donate to creators there. And once they become corrupt like everyone else, move on to the next small guy.

Why should a company provide a consumer or content creator a service for free? It's good if they do, but come on man. Businesses want to make money. If their decisions at how to do it irk you, then do something about it by supporting the other guy and having some other website host your content.

 

[Mavromatis]

75% off of, what, a .99 cent mod?

Jesus.

For a dollar mod you'll need 100/0,25=400 sales to get any payment.
The most subscribed mod for Skyrim has 815.978 subscriptions. If s/he charged 1$ for it and everyone of them paid there will be ~204.000$ maximum without counting the banking and conversion fees.

 

[Daria Morgendorffer]

Were donation links allowed before the whole paid mods thing happened?

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Why should a company provide a consumer or content creator a service for free? It's good if they do, but come on man. Businesses want to make money. If their decisions at how to do it irk you, then do something about it by supporting the other guy and having some other website host your content.

What happens if Valve puts up DRM that blocks external mods?

 

[Klossen]

Are you guys serious? Bethesda made the game and provided the Creation Kit, Valve is providing the whole infrastructure. How is that "nothing"?

Bethesda made the game in which I already paid money for. Providing kits doesn't mean they get to take a majority of the profits. That's ridiculous. With or without Valve's infrastructure, modding existed. Now, what's happening is people removing their mods from other sites and putting them on the Workshop instead. It's hard to see this as anything but the death blow to community-made modding and sharing.

PC gaming thrives on its open-ended platform. The fact that a private company (Steam) was able to monopolize PC gaming, I'm not surprised it is coming to this now. Of course they are going to capitalize and make money off mods now, more profit.
PC gaming needs to go back to the way things were before Steam.

Pretty much. By allowing Valve to seize near complete monopoly, we've allowed the once open PC platform to become glorified consoles. There have been benefits to that, no doubt. Centralized patches, servers and communities. But the negatives are starting to reveal themselves aswell.

 

[SmartWaffles]

I'm leaning towards more GOG from now on if this doesn't change in the short future.

 

[diaspora]

Since both EA and Ubisoft replaced support for mods and community content by loads of overpriced DLC, that's no issue here

I don't agree at all what Valve is doing here tho.

I don't see EA charging for Dragon Age or Mass Effect mods.

 

[Skyzard]

We all knew valve would turn evil one day.

 

[Acinixys]

Dota 2 and TF2 workshop artists only get a 25% cut of all sales of their item

Plus something that you were providing for free you can now charge for on a massive platform used by almost 50 million people

The unwarranted anger is this thread is astounding

 

[Momentary]

What happens if Valve puts up DRM that blocks external mods?

Valve is going to put DRM on games that they don't develop? If it came down to that there are other distribution companies. Why not use them? Hell, there are free file hosting websites. Why not use them for mods and make post about it somewhere and hope that word of mouth gets it out there to the people. Include a donation link in the zip file.

"But it's not as convenient as the service that so and so provides."

Well them pay up buddy.

I'm not agreeing with what they are doing, but that's what happens when a company knows that they have a service that offers convenience to the consumer.

 

[mclem]

An essential question here is whether this applies to free or only to paid mods. The former would indeed be reprehensible.

Isn't the point here that mod developers are doing this *instead* of swapping to paid?

 

[BigDes]

People here getting mad just to get mad. Buy from GOG download mods from Nexus.

"But it's not as convenient as Steam."

Well if you don t like what a PRIVATELY owned company is doing with its service then go elsewhere. There are other companies to buy and download mods from in the world of PC gaming. Help them get to the top. Donate to creators there. And once they become corrupt like everyone else, move on to the next small guy.

Why should a company provide a consumer or content creator a service for free? It's good if they do, but come on man. Businesses want to make money. If their decisions at how to do it irk you, then do something about it by supporting the other guy and having some other website host your content.

It would not surprise me in the least if Nexus used this as an opportunity to start looking at the most popular mods behind a premium paywall

 

[Skyzard]

This just discourages people who want to not charge everyone for their mod, but still may expect some donations as the mod is high quality.

It's a very shitty thing to do. Fuck them for it tbh.

 

[hemo memo]

Valve is going to put DRM on games that they don't develop? If it came down to that there are other distribution companies. Why not use them? Hell, there are free file hosting websites. Why not use them for mods and make post about it somewhere and hope that word of mouth gets it out there to the people. Include a donation link in the zip file.

"But it's not as convenient as the service that so and so provides."

Well them pay up buddy.

We need a real competitor to Steam soon or the situation will get worse.

 

[diaspora]

It would not surprise me in the least if Nexus used this as an opportunity to start looking at the most popular mods behind a premium paywall

They already have a subscription service for faster DL speeds, I doubt they'll add mods to it, that'd be suicide.

 

[test_account]

Is the problem that the author(s) of the mods only get 75% or that the donation links cant be included?

I'm not sure how i feel about donation links in something that its being purchased. I mean, its there so the author(s) can try to make more money, fair enough, but i wouldnt really like it that much if it started to appear in games as well.

 

[GoonerTRON]

What a scummy move.

 

[Lime]

Dota 2 and TF2 workshop artists only get a 25% cut of all sales of their item

Plus something that you were providing for free you can now charge for on a massive platform used by almost 50 million people

The unwarranted anger is this thread is astounding

"Valve is already exploiting consumers, so why should another exploitation matter?" is the argument you are making.

Secondly, you then completely ignore that they are taking 3/4 of labor they don't even own.