• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Twitter Death Watch |OT| How long until the bird dies?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
Well, the 1st amendment starts with “congress shall make no law…”

It’s a restriction on Congress, not a private entity. Elon Musk is not the legislative branch. He can ban or unban whom he pleases. And forcing him or another entity to do otherwise would be infringing on their right to free speech.


Then how do you propose to remove their ability to do so within a principled and lawful method?

Shouldn't it be about protecting the masses from the powerful?

When "Congress shall make no law..." was written, no one could predict the power and influence a small number of media companies would end up wielding. Back then, we put limits on government because that was the only conceivable threat we could imagine.

In other words, if forced to infringe on free speech, shouldn't we all agree that it's better to step on giant media company toes rather than everyday people?

My proposal is to tie policy to the free speech laws of the land. I'm sorry if this hurts the rights of Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, and Jeff Bezos.
 

gothmog

Gold Member
Shouldn't it be about protecting the masses from the powerful?

When "Congress shall make no law..." was written, no one could predict the power and influence a small number of media companies would end up wielding. Back then, we put limits on government because that was the only conceivable threat we could imagine.

In other words, if forced to infringe on free speech, shouldn't we all agree that it's better to step on giant media company toes rather than everyday people?

My proposal is to tie policy to the free speech laws of the land. I'm sorry if this hurts the rights of Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, and Jeff Bezos.
No. It's quite explicit about it protecting free speech from government restriction. If they wanted to protect people from the rich it would have said so.

Convincing the people that having higher standards for influential people and companies is important, but has nothing to do with government.

And who exactly would be stepping on these toes anyways?
 

Men_in_Boxes

Snake Oil Salesman
No. It's quite explicit about it protecting free speech from government restriction. If they wanted to protect people from the rich it would have said so.

Convincing the people that having higher standards for influential people and companies is important, but has nothing to do with government.

And who exactly would be stepping on these toes anyways?

Our government has a history of changing based on new problems that constantly arise.
 

Thaedolus

Member
Shouldn't it be about protecting the masses from the powerful?
Perhaps, but that’s not what the law says (in the US)

When "Congress shall make no law..." was written, no one could predict the power and influence a small number of media companies would end up wielding. Back then, we put limits on government because that was the only conceivable threat we could imagine.
Perhaps, and in the US there’s a way to error correct. Good luck getting the required majority to do it.

In other words, if forced to infringe on free speech, shouldn't we all agree that it's better to step on giant media company toes rather than everyday people?
Why? If everyday people want to say “burn the Jews!” and a giant media company says “hey maybe we shouldn’t…”, why should we agree the former is better than the latter?

My proposal is to tie policy to the free speech laws of the land. I'm sorry if this hurts the rights of Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, and Jeff Bezos.
That’s cute, just know that hardcore porn is protected speech so if your idea is anything legal goes, expect a lot of non-family friendly content everywhere you look
 
In other words, if forced to infringe on free speech, shouldn't we all agree that it's better to step on giant media company toes rather than everyday people?

My proposal is to tie policy to the free speech laws of the land. I'm sorry if this hurts the rights of Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, and Jeff Bezos.
And here's what I find so fascinating about the conversation of where the lines should drawn regarding speech, and who gets to draw them. There is a theory of thought that says the internet should be treated like the phone company. The phone company doesn't have the right to restrict what you say, so neither should massive social media platforms.

There are a few potential issues with that and similar ideas, though. If you have absolutely no limits on speech beyond what the first amendment says, then there's no way to stop slurs and similar content, making for an environment that most people would dislike.

If the government requires platforms to have free speech but also limits it beyond what the first amendment allows, that can and will be eventually used to silence those who criticize those in power.

And perhaps worst of all, if you repeal section 230 and require all platforms to also be considered publishers, only the largest and most powerful companies will support that measure, because it will destroy their competition, because it will be very expensive and very restrictive.

Everything is an imperfect solution, but that's life. If there was a perfect solution, everyone would have agreed on it already.

[edit]




At the same time, we should not be dependent on billionaires to save us from other billionaires. I would be perfectly fine with the government forcing Apple and Google to act like the phone service providers that they are, and not allowing them to restrict any app on their service for ideological reasons. Two companies should not decide for the entire country what is and what is not acceptable.
 
Last edited:

gothmog

Gold Member
Lol. I welcome Elon trying to get anywhere in that market. Microsoft couldn't even hold on and they had some share before smartphones got big.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
And here's what I find so fascinating about the conversation of where the lines should drawn regarding speech, and who gets to draw them. There is a theory of thought that says the internet should be treated like the phone company. The phone company doesn't have the right to restrict what you say, so neither should massive social media platforms.

There are a few potential issues with that and similar ideas, though. If you have absolutely no limits on speech beyond what the first amendment says, then there's no way to stop slurs and similar content, making for an environment that most people would dislike.

If the government requires platforms to have free speech but also limits it beyond what the first amendment allows, that can and will be eventually used to silence those who criticize those in power.

And perhaps worst of all, if you repeal section 230 and require all platforms to also be considered publishers, only the largest and most powerful companies will support that measure, because it will destroy their competition, because it will be very expensive and very restrictive.

Everything is an imperfect solution, but that's life. If there was a perfect solution, everyone would have agreed on it already.

[edit]




At the same time, we should not be dependent on billionaires to save us from other billionaires. I would be perfectly fine with the government forcing Apple and Google to act like the phone service providers that they are, and not allowing them to restrict any app on their service for ideological reasons. Two companies should not decide for the entire country what is and what is not acceptable.

Musk has to be trolling with that. Multi-billion dollar companies have trouble competing in that market and no one is going to buy a phone that has neither the Apple system or Android just to use Twitter.


He is out of his tree at this point.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
Lol. I welcome Elon trying to get anywhere in that market. Microsoft couldn't even hold on and they had some share before smartphones got big.

Well, all he has to do is just buy from an existing manufacturer of an Android phone and rebrand it, make some minor alterations to the OS. It would be a tool for distributing Twitter easily to general audiences, not as an actual competitor in the marketplace.

Personally I predict very few people buying a phone just for one app. In fact I am pretty sure someone tried that before. I vaguely recall something like that happening in the early to mid 2010's.
 

gothmog

Gold Member
Well, all he has to do is just buy from an existing manufacturer of an Android phone and rebrand it, make some minor alterations to the OS. It would be a tool for distributing Twitter easily to general audiences, not as an actual competitor in the marketplace.

Personally I predict very few people buying a phone just for one app. In fact I am pretty sure someone tried that before. I vaguely recall something like that happening in the early to mid 2010's.
Facebook and Amazon branded their own phone and watched huge piles of money go up in smoke.
 

MrMephistoX

Member
Leave it to social media whores to contradict themselves (amazing that a guy who looks like he's 70 years old would be wasting his time on Twitter). Give them enough time and they probably all do. No thinking. Just posting. Whatever works as the click bait tweet of the day for followers.
This is ironically why I think Twitter won’t fail. Almost every credible journalist and media commentator left is on Twitter and the only way they can get the type of engagement their content needs to satisfy advertisers on their site currently is to tweet it out. Twitter is still the first place everyone goes for breaking news and that has to be a significant source of referral traffic to sites like CNN and The NY Times otherwise they’d pull the plug. Until a rival gets the type of referral traffic they can get on Twitter they may kvetch about Musk but they aren’t going anywhere.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
That’s cute, just know that hardcore porn is protected speech so if your idea is anything legal goes, expect a lot of non-family friendly content everywhere you look
sub-buzz-591-1565737963-1.png
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
That’s cute, just know that hardcore porn is protected speech so if your idea is anything legal goes, expect a lot of non-family friendly content everywhere you look
Hardcore porn has been on Twitter for ages.



I mean....I have HEARD its been on Twitter for ages. From a friend.



I heard that from a friend. 👀
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
Could be true, could be false.

Oh, I somehow missed this notification.


Blind has been a reliable, anonymous source of information for years. Users have to go through a verification process to insure that they are actually employed by who they claim they are.
 

Guilty_AI

Member
Oh, I somehow missed this notification.


Blind has been a reliable, anonymous source of information for years. Users have to go through a verification process to insure that they are actually employed by who they claim they are.
Article forgets to mention other advertisers are increasing their spending to take advantage of the vacuum tho.
 
Last edited:
Article forgets to mention other advertisers are increasing their spending to take advantage of the vacuum tho.
I also doubt the article mentions that advertisers were already pulling out before Musk even walked in the door, and all the car companies left Twitter for reasons that have nothing to do with speech moderation concerns, but why put context and nuance in a hit piece.
 
Last edited:

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Is there anything that you can do in the Twitter app that you cant do from their site?
Not really, but in a world that lives and dies by their phones that is a HUGE fucking deal if it were to happen.


And if Elon continues on his ridiculous path of decision making it just come to that.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
If Apple and Google banned Twitter for the crime of being owned by the wrong billionaire they'll be begging for the US Government antitrust investigation. They aren't that stupid. Probably.
They would not. That is an absolute nonsense scenario. They have every right to remove the apps that are offered in their stores if those apps breaks their terms of service. The person owning the apps has nothing to do with it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Like most people, I do want there to be censorship on twitter. I just want it to be fairly applied to everyone and not be ideologically driven. With that in mind, I thought it was good to see this exchange:




And this clarification:




Personally, I'm glad that sort of hate is still going to be against the rules. I didn't really think otherwise, but it's nice to see him confirming it.
 
Last edited:

Moneal

Member
Like most people, I do want there to be censorship on twitter. I just want it to be fairly applied to everyone and not be ideologically driven. With that in mind, I thought it was good to see this exchange:




And this clarification:



Personally, I'm glad that sort of hate is still going to be against the rules. I didn't really think otherwise, but it's nice to see him confirming it.

Yea, saying anyone deserves to die should be prohibited.
 

Toons

Member
The same could have been said in the 1950s by the overwhelming majority of society when talking about the 4 percent of people who supported interracial marriage. I'm sure there were lots of "experts" back then who would have said just about what you did. That is the concern. When you allow people in power to decide the truth, and then silence all opposing thought, it's an incredibly authoritarian and dangerous thing to accept.

The 4 percent of people who supported interracial marriage faced ostracism and repercussion for those stances. They still held them. History agreed with them in the end.

I dont see history agreeing with Kanye.
 

Toons

Member
When you have governments (including the US) threatening platform holders if they don't get a handle on what people in power decide to be misinformation, we're past the point of "they're a private company and can do what they want."




There's a very important ideological principal that you can choose to adopt that says you want all people to be allowed to speak, because you never want your own speech to be censored. You accept speech you do not like, and may even despise, to protect your own speech in the future. That's the agreement. Because power never stays in the hands of anyone one group, so you do not create a precedent that could silence your voice in the future.

When you want your opponent's speech to be treated the same way as your yours, you will never be accused of being a hypocrite, and you will always be standing on firm ground whenever you fight for your own right to be heard.

And that's the answer to your question. People need to demand that the platforms they use treat all speech fairly, and that those platform holders do not consider themselves to be the arbiters of truth.

The platforms are the arbiters of what is allowed on their platform. Dorwh5 have to be a universal truth. But they get to decide what's allowed.

If I run a shirt printing business I can reserve the right to refuse to make shirts with swastikas. If the patron requesting it doesn't like that he can go elsewhere and get his shirts printed. If no one else wants to print his shirt because nazis suck, Tough titties. He can print them himself.

Thats always been how it works.
 

Toons

Member
Neither did the people who criticized interracial marriage in the 1950s

Those people who supported interracial marriage were right. Kanye is wrong.

Your stance not only condones the abhorrent racism and suffering that those people then went through, but it welcomes it.
 

Toons

Member
And here's what I find so fascinating about the conversation of where the lines should drawn regarding speech, and who gets to draw them. There is a theory of thought that says the internet should be treated like the phone company. The phone company doesn't have the right to restrict what you say, so neither should massive social media platforms.

There are a few potential issues with that and similar ideas, though. If you have absolutely no limits on speech beyond what the first amendment says, then there's no way to stop slurs and similar content, making for an environment that most people would dislike.

If the government requires platforms to have free speech but also limits it beyond what the first amendment allows, that can and will be eventually used to silence those who criticize those in power.

And perhaps worst of all, if you repeal section 230 and require all platforms to also be considered publishers, only the largest and most powerful companies will support that measure, because it will destroy their competition, because it will be very expensive and very restrictive.

Everything is an imperfect solution, but that's life. If there was a perfect solution, everyone would have agreed on it already.

[edit]




At the same time, we should not be dependent on billionaires to save us from other billionaires. I would be perfectly fine with the government forcing Apple and Google to act like the phone service providers that they are, and not allowing them to restrict any app on their service for ideological reasons. Two companies should not decide for the entire country what is and what is not acceptable.


That's because the core problem is late stage capitalism which creates these conditions where only someone like musk would have a change to do what you're describing.

The above scenario with the phone plan situation works fine if everyone can have an even shot at establishing their own business and values.
 
Last edited:
The 4 percent of people who supported interracial marriage faced ostracism and repercussion for those stances. They still held them. History agreed with them in the end.

I dont see history agreeing with Kanye.
But history may not have agreed with them in the end, if it wasn't for free speech. Civil rights, women's suffrage, gay rights, trans rights, and whatever comes next that we can't even see coming. None of these could have moved forward if we didn't allow those discussions to happen. All of these things would have been considered "hurtful ideas that would cause harm to society" before they were accepted. It's why restricting speech can ultimately cause a lot more harm than it prevents. Sorry if that point didn't come across with what I said initially.

And I didn't even realize we were talking about Kanye. I was just taking the point you made as a general statement and responding to that. But you can take a look at Kanye and see the consequences of hateful generalizations. I don't see why keeping him banned from twitter would help matters.* If anything, I'd hope he can be exposed to some arguments that would help him rethink his views.

* Apparently his account was restored before Musk got there anyhow.

If I run a shirt printing business I can reserve the right to refuse to make shirts with swastikas.
You're conflating compelled speech with free speech. But otherwise, yeah, private businesses are definitely a big part of this debate.
 

FunkMiller

Member
private businesses are definitely a big part of this debate.

If people believe in the freedom of anyone to do or say what they want, then they can't complain about a company's business decisions.

Otherwise that's hypocrisy, pure and simple.

"I think someone should be able to voice their conspiracy theories on Twitter, but I'm mad at the idea of Apple not carrying the Twitter app anymore because of it" ...ain't much of an argument.
 
If people believe in the freedom of anyone to do or say what they want, then they can't complain about a company's business decisions.

Otherwise that's hypocrisy, pure and simple.

"I think someone should be able to voice their conspiracy theories on Twitter, but I'm mad at the idea of Apple not carrying the Twitter app anymore because of it" ...ain't much of an argument.
Two companies should not have so much power that they can decide which opinions can and cannot be held on every phone in the country. Call it "late stage capitalism" or perhaps a matter of oligarchy, but if the government still took their antitrust duties seriously we wouldn't even need to have this discussion.

On a Twitter related note, I can finally use Twitter as much as I want without ever signing in or having an account. I can scroll and scroll without being asked to sign in or sign up. This is honestly the most "free" twitter has felt in years. Not a bad alternative to eight dollars.
 

BadBurger

Is 'That Pure Potato'
But history may not have agreed with them in the end, if it wasn't for free speech. Civil rights, women's suffrage, gay rights, trans rights, and whatever comes next that we can't even see coming. None of these could have moved forward if we didn't allow those discussions to happen.

The first amendment guaranteed that people could have such conversations regardless of the tyranny of the majority. I think it's a flawed, even a little obscene, argument to point to people's successful struggles of the past to try and justify forcing private companies to host the same kind of hate and oppression that we overcame.
 

RAÏSanÏa

Member
Leave it to social media whores to contradict themselves (amazing that a guy who looks like he's 70 years old would be wasting his time on Twitter). Give them enough time and they probably all do. No thinking. Just posting. Whatever works as the click bait tweet of the day for followers.
You're naively trusting that clickbait tweet and assuming a contradiction exists by believing a false equivalency from a cropped statement. There can be some minor confusion with homonymous speech referring to different things and sounding the same which needs to be overcome that's made more difficult when it's appealing to bias, but it's not that difficult.
 
Last edited:
The first amendment guaranteed that people could have such conversations regardless of the tyranny of the majority. I think it's a flawed, even a little obscene, argument to point to people's successful struggles of the past to try and justify forcing private companies to host the same kind of hate and oppression that we overcame.
That would be a more appropriate argument to make if I hadn't already said I do think Twitter should be censored when it comes to slurs, calls for physical harm, etc. And it seems Elon Musk agrees as well.

But if free speech is such an important concept for our nation, I do not think it's a ridiculous request to feel that American people and companies should value that concept beyond what the government requires, especially when it comes to people who control massive speech platforms.
 

RAÏSanÏa

Member
This is what he’s fighting against and that’s why he has my support.


An alarmist says among their delusional claims that there's only one narrative by the media and all dissent is quashed." and Musk says "Accurate". LOL

That does help this situation for Musk make more sense now. He thinks(or is playing) he's a hero, when in actuality they're in a LARP against a made up foe in an imaginary situation. What a bubble that's going to pop. It's no wonder so many people left Twitter when it's operating contradictory to reality. Adds another reason why Musk was looking for loyalty and can only have yes men/hype men around.

As for getting banned on Google and Apple, it's more likely Twitter will fall from compliance and get removed and all this 'play the victim' theatrics going on is just an attempt to get ahead of that.
Making his own phone would mean another way for him to lose his wealth(would he find substantial investors after twitter failing so fast and part of the same personal agenda?). More time away from Tesla?
 

FunkMiller

Member
Two companies should not have so much power that they can decide which opinions can and cannot be held on every phone in the country. Call it "late stage capitalism" or perhaps a matter of oligarchy, but if the government still took their antitrust duties seriously we wouldn't even need to have this discussion.

Well, quite possibly. But here we are, in a free capitalist market. If you advocate for freedom, then part of that advocation must be for the freedom of major companies to make whatever decisions they feel is best for their continued profit.

If you are demanding that free speech for individuals and organisations is more or less absolute on Twitter, then you must also demand that individuals or organisations be allowed to react to that free speech in whatever way they choose.
 
Last edited:

RAÏSanÏa

Member
Truly. Not all dissent is quashed, just the majority of it. LOL
Maybe in Russia and Iran to put it in perspective.

In the West, there's examples of different enviro/economic protests that get some rougher treatment than others but they aren't quashed, only certain behaviors are, and there's strict oversight in high profile federal cases.

If talking about passive suppression by the media narrative, those and much more go unreported nationally, but that may be a matter of desk time and more immediate relevant issues. Usually one or another pops up once in awhile but these are always happening and reported somewhere.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom