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[veloxStrix]

Except that you can create interesting missions, creating open sandbox missions that allow for multiple approaches not only is inherently more interesting than smaller scripted missions but the missions then become about player expression, it's the reason why something like Dishonored can lead to shit like this because although the mission itself is standard infiltration there are a shit ton of dynamic interwoven systems, so many that half the stuff that happens is stuff that the devs didn't intend.

Open-world is not "inherently" more interesting in anything. Dishonored can only be used as an example due to the core gameplay mechanics - something of which Ubisoft has never once gotten close to getting right. Aside from this, people tend to talk about linear games like they are literally a hallway. Most of the StealthGamer clips could be replicated exactly if Dishonored were a linear game with various battle arenas. The open-world emergent paradise isn't particularly interesting at this point and I cannot imagine it will get more exciting by removing real narrative from them.

When Ubisoft releases a game without worthless collectibles, I might reconsider the company. But as it stands they are miles behind in gameplay, no matter how pretty their games get.

 

[dr_rus]

So the entire game is now boring side missions.

Yeah, all of this sounds awful as I personally think that AC2 was the proper way to handle such games and they were deviating from it more and more since then.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Open-world is not "inherently" more interesting in anything.

You misread the post, OPEN SANDBOX MISSION DESIGN

Dishonored can only be used as an example due to the core gameplay mechanics - something of which Ubisoft has never once gotten close to getting right.

Except for Far Cry and WD2 offering incredibly similar open sandbox mission design

Aside from this, people tend to talk about linear games like they are literally a hallway. Most of the StealthGamer clips could be replicated exactly if Dishonored were a linear game with various battle arenas. The open-world emergent paradise isn't particularly interesting at this point and I cannot imagine it will get more exciting by removing real narrative from them.

Except they aren't talking about removing narrative altogether.

When Ubisoft releases a game without worthless collectibles, I might reconsider the company. But as it stands they are miles behind in gameplay, no matter how pretty their games get.

Play Watch Dogs 2, or any of the last 3 AC games.

 

[RedSwirl]

Yeah, all of this sounds awful as I personally think that AC2 was the proper way to handle such games and they were deviating from it more and more since then.

I think Ubisoft moved away from that because feedback suggested most players preferred the sandbox stuff like clearing outposts or commanding a pirate ship.

I think if AC2's story had been written into a game structured like Dishonored, it possibly would have been just as good, maybe even better if that allowed Ubisoft to design better levels.

 

[benny_a]

Play Watch Dogs 2, or any of the last 3 AC games.

I'm not addressed in that quote but dude. I grant you WD2 especially as I haven't played it yet, but the last three AC games are full of garbage collectibles boring taking over fill the map mission shit.

That's not player expression, that's mind rot. I'm hoping they can put more systems and such in Assassin's Creed but if you think they've already arrived or that even the last Assasin's Creed has great moment to moment gameplay then good night Ubisoft.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

It's like they asked "How can we make our Ubisoft games even more Ubisoft?"

Pretty much haha. I don't think I'll ever play a Ubisoft open world game again.

 

[TheSpaceBetween]

Open-world is not "inherently" more interesting in anything. Dishonored can only be used as an example due to the core gameplay mechanics - something of which Ubisoft has never once gotten close to getting right. Aside from this, people tend to talk about linear games like they are literally a hallway. Most of the StealthGamer clips could be replicated exactly if Dishonored were a linear game with various battle arenas. The open-world emergent paradise isn't particularly interesting at this point and I cannot imagine it will get more exciting by removing real narrative from them.

When Ubisoft releases a game without worthless collectibles, I might reconsider the company. But as it stands they are miles behind in gameplay, no matter how pretty their games get.

Not to mention Dishonored's fantastic level and world design, which Ubisoft is generally garbage at.

Edit: sorry for the double post.

 

[Skux]

Ubisoft says this change in decision is driven by both their internal creative direction, but also market trends that favor this type of game design. As an example, he mentions that (basically) no one goes out of their way to share a video of a cutscene as opposed to their awesome mission solution or gameplay clip.

This is true. Everyone loves sharing crazy BF1 plays, or ridiculous GTAV stunts, or examples of emergent gameplay in MGSV. It's much more personal and unique than just capturing and uploading a game cutscene.

 

[Damerman]

My thought exactly lol.

Count me out if this is the way they're going. Assassin's Creed without story sounds like the definition of pure tedium.

ya'll are trippin. mgsv emergent gameplay is unprecedented.

 

[Skux]

So they basically want to make Assassin's Creed 1.

They want to do the opposite. AC1 was a linear game set in an "open world". Newer titles expanded the open world, but the way you progressed through the story was still linear. You did mission 1, then some side stuff, then mission 2 and 3, then some side stuff - the main plot was still the same for everyone.

What they're talking about is giving players truly open worlds. Not being constrained into a single main story with ultimately meaningless side quests. Having the gameplay mechanics in place to be create your own experiences beyond going to A and killing X. Making it fun to do stuff that isn't tied to a main story.

Count me out if this is the way they're going. Assassin's Creed without story sounds like the definition of pure tedium.

But if it had MGSV-quality gameplay, that would be an entirely different kettle of fish.

 

[Omega Kirby]

And except Ubisoft's open world games aren't even close to MGS V in terms of gameplay design, depth, or even fun.

Was about to agree with you, then I remember Ubisoft made Assassin Creed 2 and 4 , so no.

 

[Damerman]

Was about to agree with you, then I remember Ubisoft made Assassin Creed 2 and 4 , so no.

I'll never understand the love for AC4... AC 3 is arguably better than black flag.

and those games can't even reach MGSV's knees.

 

[benny_a]

But if it had MGSV-quality gameplay, that would be an entirely different kettle of fish.

But that part is quite difficult.

What is seemingly easy for AAA developers is making an open world collectathon with 5 mission templates and Batman inspired combat.

But hey, at least they have identified that change is needed externally and internally desired.

 

[NathanS]

open world game design in general is shit. it hasn't really evolved beyond what we had in the nes days aside from visuals and presentation. it's still "go to this person and press x to talk and get side quest." the worlds themselves aren't very dynamic or reactive. the concept of 'freedom' in these games is largely an illusion in my opinion.

i'm waiting for this to dawn on someone and see them go the other way: give me a game that takes place on one city block. all of the ai in the game have daily routines and 'lives.' dialog options are extensive and the entire world truly reacts to your choices and actions. basically, stop focusing on graphics and size so much and focus on the a.i. i actually have a few cool ideas for a game along these lines, but i don't have the resources to do anything about it.

Have you ever looked at any of the Classic computer sandboxes? Stuff like Ultima 7 and Elite? They tend to out class a LOT of modern open world games.

 

[Crossing Eden]

I'm not addressed in that quote but dude. I grant you WD2 especially as I haven't played it yet, but the last three AC games are full of garbage collectibles boring taking over fill the map mission shit.

That's not player expression, that's mind rot. I'm hoping they can put more systems and such in Assassin's Creed but if you think they've already arrived or that even the last Assasin's Creed has great moment to moment gameplay then good night Ubisoft.

The only collectible I would deem useless or even unneccessary are the cockades in Unity, (which have a use as they unlock colors and usually require a better understanding of the parkour system to get easily), otherwise they have a good place, like the songs in AC4/R, the flower subplot in ACS, the templar key quest lines, etc.

 

[JeffZero]

I'm not particularly interested in this approach and will not purchase their games as a result, unfortunately. I quite enjoy more cinematic central-narrative approach. But I understand they did the necessary marketing research and decided from there.

 

[benny_a]

The only collectible I would deem useless or even unneccessary are the cockades in Unity, (which have a use as they unlock colors and usually require a better understanding of the parkour system to get easily), otherwise they have a good place, like the songs in AC4/R, the flower subplot in ACS, the templar key quest lines, etc.

I have no issue with the songs, they are an amusing addition. But the never ending book pages? All the hundreds of crafting shit in ACS?

And to what end? Those games aren't difficult when it comes to combat so all you craft for is appearance, due to the win button (aka counter.) [Which isn't as bad as in Shadow of Mordor, so it isn't the worst offender.]

I think the stealth could be fun, but if you're spotted you can just just fight your way out of every situation and it's so mindless. Hitman has bad shooting and you're flimsly so you just die and restart and take a different approach. Batman in AA couldn't take many fully assault shots. (It often has the disappearing with Gargoyle cheapness, which they sometimes restrict but should restrict more often.)

 

[Crossing Eden]

I have no issue with the songs, they are an amusing addition. But the never ending book pages? All the hundreds of crafting shit in ACS?

And to what end? Those games aren't difficult when it comes to combat so all you craft for is appearance, due to the win button (aka counter.) [Which isn't as bad as in Shadow of Mordor, so it isn't the worst offender.]

First of all, what game did you play? It seems like you didn't play ACS at all considering that countering has been outright removed since AC:Unity...there are only 12 letters that you can collect, ACU only had five categories of collectibles, and since the games now are more like RPGs upgrading equipment is much more important, leading to a good incentive to actually get crafting materials for upgrades.

I think the stealth could be fun, but if you're spotted you can just just fight your way out of every situation and it's so mindless.

Good luck dealing with higher level enemies with standard equipment in ACU or Syndicate, it's either gonna take awhile or you're gonna die very quickly as reinforcements show up.

Hitman has bad shooting and you're flimsly so you just die and restart and take a different approach. Batman in AA couldn't take many fully assault shots. (It often has the disappearing with Gargoyle cheapness, which they sometimes restrict but should restrict more often.)

Batman not being able to take many bullets makes sense but Hitman being that bad at shooting really doesn't considering his profession.

 

[benny_a]

First of all, what game did you play?

The last AC game I played is AC Syndicate

Good luck dealing with higher level enemies with standard equipment in ACU or Syndicate, it's either gonna take awhile or you're gonna die very quickly as reinforcements show up.

Yay, more tedium. Or is this one of those it gets good after 20 hours things? Because it sure as hell wasn't good the first 20 hours.

I must take your word for it, because the game was so boring to play with no difference if I fought with Dude Frye or Dudette Frye, despite their alleged difference of focus.

Batman not being able to take many bullets makes sense but Hitman being that bad at shooting really doesn't considering his profession.

It's not that he is bad at shooting. It's that if you get swarmed you're going down quickly, therefor discouraging sloppy play. The same with Batman.

The punishment in those games is death. The punishment in Assasin's Creed is tedium.

Even the latest Arkham Knight, which I don't think was that great was very far above AC Syndicate combat.

 

[Jay Sosa]

They had me at 'new approach'

I just hope it's not just PR bs. Even though I'm completely certain it's just PR bs.

 

[UrbanRats]

Yay, more tedium. Or is this one of those it gets good after 20 hours things? Because it sure as hell wasn't good the first 20 hours.

I must take your word for it, because the game was so boring to play with no difference if I fought with Dude Frye or Dudette Frye, despite their alleged difference of focus.

It's a really bad implementation in both games, for different reasons.
Both use enemy levels to artificially control what you can and can't do, to the point where it doesn't feel like skill has that much to do with it, in combat (as opposed to something like a Souls game, where you can overcome greater obstacles even at lvl 1, with enough skill).
In Syndicate, the rest of the game is solid enough though, that you can sort of excuse the abysmal combat, you just learn to ignore it.
In Unity however it's a pain in the ass start to finish, it's bad and it's surrounded by mostly bad and clunky mechanics, that force you to resort to it more often that they should.

Also, at least in Syndicate the combat is mindless, so it's boring, but you can at least phase out and kill people quickly, in Unity it's also very punishing (unless you're over leveled) so it's also and exercise in frustration, especially paired with the stuttering, bad framerate, input lag, animation priority, and annoying canned finisher animations the game is riddled with, often you'll be able to take a couple of hits, before the canned finisher animation starts and sends you to the grave, many times skipping frames so i couldn't even understand what parry i had missed.

In syndicate it's a bad mechanic you can ignore.
In Unity it made for one of the most frustrating gaming experiences in the last two gens at last, for me.

EDIT: So to your point, in Unity the punishment was definitely death, and swift, too, but it wasn't good, because it didn't feel earned, the tools given to you lacked the polish necessary to be able to face overwhelming severity and rigor, when it comes to combat and stealth.
Essentially, good punishing games like Bayonetta, DMC, Dark Souls, all offer a smooth gameplay (in terms of mechanics at least, if not performance, too), to make up for the very punishing gameplay loop.

 

[benny_a]

In syndicate it's a bad mechanic you can ignore.
In Unity it made for one of the most frustrating gaming experiences in the last two gens at last, for me.

I can see that perspective. I bought Syndicate because of the relatively good impressions.

And if those two are the options on offer then I would probably also take Syndicate's implementation.

But there can be better ways to do things. Hitman is an example of how to do stealth better than Assassin's Creed and IMO Batman AK is an example on how to do the already de facto AAA 3rd person brawling system better.

I just don't agree with the perspective that somehow AC:S already arrived. If that is the peak gameplay I can expect from Ubisoft then I am not impressed.
The combat I said isn't quite Shadow of Mordor but the countering to victory is definitely very much present and very much boring, except now you make 12 hp of damage in the background instead of 17 due to the crafting system.

 

[Zojirushi]

This sounds like Ubi Open World but remove all main story missions and double down on repetitive ass side stuff.

 

[Omega Kirby]

I'll never understand the love for AC4... AC 3 is arguably better than black flag.

and those games can't even reach MGSV's knees.

Have to agree to disagree, the sense of exploration and adventure that AC4 offers is something neither MGSV and much less AC3 can touch.

 

[RedSwirl]

I think the real initial test for this approach is going to be Ghost Recon Wildlands. That game seems to be all about "do the mission however you want."

 

[golem]

Watch Dogs 2 seems to be a step in the right direction of more coherent plotting and allowing a variety of approaches to story missions. Hopefully they continue along this path

 

[infinityBCRT]

They want to do the opposite. AC1 was a linear game set in an "open world". Newer titles expanded the open world, but the way you progressed through the story was still linear. You did mission 1, then some side stuff, then mission 2 and 3, then some side stuff - the main plot was still the same for everyone.

What they're talking about is giving players truly open worlds. Not being constrained into a single main story with ultimately meaningless side quests. Having the gameplay mechanics in place to be create your own experiences beyond going to A and killing X. Making it fun to do stuff that isn't tied to a main story.



But if it had MGSV-quality gameplay, that would be an entirely different kettle of fish.

AC1 was not as linear as the games that followed it (you could do discovery missions and assassinations in varying orders), and the story was minimal and suffered for it.