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UC4 Director Says They Had To Ask One 'Sexist Focus Tester' To Leave [Spoilers]

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Jul 23, 2010
31,050
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And again, even if we do get characters that people who make this argument would describe as "tokens", what exactly is the problem with that? We have enough white men in gaming who are terribly written, hell a lot of them are the main protagonists (looking at you Aiden "why am I such an asshole" Pearce). It's like there's some sort of rule that every character who isn't white and male has to be perfect, otherwise you immediatley have people going "well I wouldn't have a problem with it if the writing was better". Bullshit. You're just using that as an excuse.
Oh, absolutely. It's a paper thin excuse to discourage others from writing in minorities.


That's what I thought as well. He's moving the goalposts.
Yeah well, small wonder, I mean look at that post again:

A good baddie for such a romp would be a Bane type character. Remember, its supposed to be fun for players, not an Exercise in Political Correctness at every step.
In other words, a cliché, generic villain like Bane would be good, but not Nadine because it's "too PC". LOL
 

Mushroomer25

Member
Jan 5, 2012
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twitter.com
If she was a generic vilain , she would have died and pitifull end , like all the previous vilain in the franchise ( lazarevich anyone ? ). First she was a strong leader of men, second she got away with the money, third she was able to say: "we need to stop , this is too much loses !" , and she kicked ass in hand to hand combat even against multiple opponents.
I don't even think she can be considered generic, considering how all the other vilains of the franchise ended

Being less generic than other Uncharted villains doesn't mean much. That's a pretty low bar. Even then, the few elements that don't make her a complete cliche don't mean much in the grand scheme of the narrative. She's barely above the bottom of the barrel.
 

The Lamp

Member
Nov 6, 2010
17,178
2
0
I know. But there was supposedly a technical reason for that.

Also I remember people arguing about the primitive hunter gatherer culture thing that the fallen societies reverted to.

In U4 there doesn't seem to be a good reason why women are omitted from Nadine's army especially considering she's strong enough to kick anyone's ass and survive, including the protagonist TWICE
 

Raiden

Banned
Sep 19, 2005
10,068
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I just wanted to read what he said and still spoiled myself. Not blaming you OP but goddamnit.
 
Oct 9, 2013
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Nadine as old mentor to Cassie in a way like Sully and Nate, Cassie inspiring Nadine to want to hunt treasure for the sheer adventure of it (Cassie main character, Nadine side-kick), Nadine teaching Cassie how to kick 2 grown ass men's asses at the same time.
What the... You do know she's the leader of a PMC group that talks about massacres and "bad press" and works to topple third world governments? Nate and Elena are trying to not influence Cassie to be a psycopath (like Nate is in the game). He even hangs up his gun holster in the closet, but they are still treasure hunting. Just legally.
 

BoxManLocke

Member
Aug 4, 2014
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Are there actual exemples of characters that were created solely "for diversity's sake" who had a negative effect on the game they were in ?
 

HeelPower

Member
Mar 12, 2013
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The multiplayer character bio says that Nadine apparently inherited her father's crime business.

It would be amazing if the DLC is about her.Nadine probably isn't a true criminal bychoice but someone who grew up in an environment that didn't offer any alternate view of life.
 
Nov 23, 2011
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I know. But there was supposedly a technical reason for that.

The technical reason sounds like bullshit now that ND omitted women again. They said they couldn't fit female animations in memory on the PS3, but they wouldn't have such a problem on the PS4. But here we go, Uncharted 4 went all male again, what is their excuse this time?
 

CrispyBoar

Banned
Dec 31, 2015
3,086
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I legitimately don't understand why people would elect not to play a game because it stars a woman. Like, how childish do you have to be? I can at least kind of wrap my head around casual sexism but acting like that guy? Why?

I agree. Has this guy never heard of games like Tomb Raider back in the 90's? Or with the Reboots where the lead character of those games is a woman?
 
Oct 9, 2013
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The multiplayer character bio says that Nadine apparently inherited her father's crime business.

It would be amazing if the DLC is about her.Nadine probably isn't a true criminal bychoice but someone who grew up in an environment that didn't offer any alternate view of life.
I don't know. At some point, you can't just blame the environment or inheritence when it comes to handling a modern and expensive PMC that sets out to murder people in already fucked up places. After all, she set out to prove herself so says the game and put her PMC back on the map, after mesding up on a few jobs. (Hence the 'Bad publicity' and 'Getting Avery's treasure would repair Shoreline's Rep' lines in the game)

But then again this ND we are talking about. Solid writing and character building would be amazing. Some Godfather type stuff and making players sympathize with her would make a great DLC. Thpugh to be honest she probably was just a one off character... Here's to hoping!
 

GlamFM

Banned
Sep 22, 2009
16,012
245
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Preview image from the full interview :p

There:

I don't believe that you weren't nervous. I do believe that you don't make games for them.

I'm always nervous how a game will be received, how successful we'll be, is it going to make its money back. I guess what I meant is that I know we're going to lose some people. I know there are people on NeoGAF right now complaining about the beginning of this game. Because I read some. They hate how slow it is. They don't believe it's really a game until you get to the end of the auction and you get your gun and you start shooting at people. That, to them, is the game. I'm OK if we lose some of those people. Hopefully they're replaced with other people who are intrigued by the more conscious pacing.

You're surfing the comment forums at NeoGAF right now?

That's my sick obsession. You listen to movie directors in interviews, and they can go sit in a theater and get the reaction of people to their movie. We don't have that experience. Sure, I can invite someone over who hasn't played the game and watch them play, but it's not quite the same. Going on NeoGAF or watching Let's Play videos is how I get to experience the game now, and see what works, what doesn't work, how people interpret the material. That, to me, is part of the payoff of making this game. You have to have thick skin. But it can be quite enjoyable.
 

HeelPower

Member
Mar 12, 2013
11,342
1
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I don't know. At some point, you can't just blame the environment or inheritence when it comes to handling a modern and expensive PMC that sets out to murder people in already fucked up places. After all, she set out to prove herself so says the game and put her PMC back on the map, after mesding up on a few jobs. (Hence the 'Bad publicity' and 'Getting Avery's treasure would repair Shoreline's Rep' lines in the game)

But then again this ND we are talking about. Solid writing and character building would be amazing. Some Godfather type stuff and making players sympathize with her would make a great DLC. Thpugh to be honest she probably was just a one off character... Here's to hoping!

You're right about your analysis.

But it would be really interesting if there's someone maybe pulling her strings from behind the scenes?

There's so much potential here..As much as I love the main cast,I think Nadine DLC would be something far more interesting to me.
 

VeeP

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Jan 14, 2013
3,691
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430
You're supposed to feel powerless in that fight, that was the point! No matter how hard you try, you still lose.

Eh. It was annoying. At least let us dodge her attacks or something like that final fight with Rafe.
 

m4st4

Member
Oct 5, 2015
1,556
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The epilogue
being their daughter is cool, but I REALLY like that they made it an old woman in the mansion. Really would've been less interesting if it was man, looking back.

Absolutely, one of my favorite new characters.

I also like how she had them at gunpoint and called the police. Lessons and all.
 

Jangowuzhere

Banned
Mar 12, 2015
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The technical reason sounds like bullshit now that ND omitted women again. They said they couldn't fit female animations in memory on the PS3, but they wouldn't have such a problem on the PS4. But here we go, Uncharted 4 went all male again, what is their excuse this time?
I think it makes Nadine a stronger character.

The fact that an all male army is willing to follow her without question implies a lot about her leadership skills. I don't think that comes across as elegantly if shoreline was a diverse mercenary group.
 

Golgo 13

The Man With The Golden Dong
Jun 14, 2014
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Huge spoilers for Uncharted 4 below.


It just sucked to see Nate get his ass kicked so badly and fight like such an amateur, didn't care that it was a woman. But I guess when you think about it, Nate isn't any kind of a skilled martial artist, just a dude who's been in a few scrapes and a bar fight or two, so it makes sense that someone with real training would open a can of whoop-ass on him.

I actually thought they'd delve deeper into Nadine's character than they did, which is a shame. Also, playing Nate's daughter at the end was a beautiful touch. What kind of a psychopath do you have to be to be offended by that? Heh.
 

dottme

Member
Sep 28, 2013
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This topic ruin everything for me. For the ending :
For me, the daughter was a reference to Tomb Raider, as Ucharted was clearly inspired by Tomb Raider. It was a way to finish the loop.
Telling me it was just, why not, is kind of ruining what might have been a thank you to the inspiration.
 

Iztok Mravlja

Banned
Sep 4, 2015
336
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Slovenia
Shockingly I haven't heard much push back against this. The game seems to have lots of interest. Maybe it's because we haven't seen much of it yet. I guess when marketing for it starts to ramp up we'll start seeing the undesirables voicing their shit.

Has there ever been push back over this for new IPs like Horizon Zero Dawn? From what I gather, it's usually over things people are used to suddenly being changed.

Unless I'm missing some examples (please correct me), I think this is a noteworthy distinction.

edit: For example, I'd be pretty annoyed if they changed Tomb Raider to star Larry Croft, but had no problem with a similar, brand new game having a male lead (the first Uncharted).
 

Zolo

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Jan 3, 2015
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If they wanted to do different, they should have made Sam Drakes sister.

The big question to ask in a lot of these occasions is if it matters or if it's more interesting to switch genders. In Sam's case, changing genders could be seen as different dynamics due to it being a brother-sister relationship rather than a brotherly one that is often going to be different.

Don't know about Horizon, but there was for Remember Me.
I feel like there's always going to be a degree of it. It's just a matter of if it's any actual notable number. I haven't heard any real pushback for the changes that this tester really complained about either.
 

SomTervo

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Jan 19, 2015
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Since people are talking about the future: Id prefer if Naughty Dog didn't do another white woman protagonist as a means to diversify. I'm just afraid that the games industry will do the exact same thing as Hollywood and think that diversification means putting more white women front and center. It'll still be better than nothing I guess, but looking beyond just changing the gender would be pretty cool.

Totally.

Only part that actually confused me regarding genders was why there were no female enemies. Especially with Nadine as the leader you'd think she'd be interested in diversifying her group a tiny bit.

Good point.
 

CEO

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Mar 7, 2007
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didnt come of as strange to me, the choices of characters i mean. nadine was bad ass... threw me off a little in the end since she could've destroyed anything or anyone... in a "spare the dynamite, here comes nadine with her temper" kind of way :D

anyhow, since the tomb raider series is the only comparable one in terms of exploration and story in this regard i was rather fond of nathan being male. tomb raider had a lot of strong women. even her enemies were female at times whereas competitors were mostly male which already gives a hint at the "competitive" perspective on the gaming market in a way.

there just wasn't a male explorer except for indy. it was lara all the way since the first tomb raider.

i'm perplexed by the whole sexist debate since the beginning... okay, they have a daughter now because of sarkassian, why the kcuf would she need those NERDY glasses? just to look all dorky. would've been fine without them, talking cliché and stereotyping...

bah... hope all that made sense.
 

SilentRob

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May 27, 2015
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Eh. It was annoying. At least let us dodge her attacks or something like that final fight with Rafe.

Then you wouldn't feel powerless if you managed to evade her punches, which would destroy the purpose of the whole scene.
 

timetokill

Banned
Oct 19, 2004
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Et tu, Naughty Dog?


I would like to see them add some female enemies if they really want to be diverse. The idea that bad guys have to be men just reasserts the notion that men are disposable, as well as that women are inherently good.
 

Zolo

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Jan 3, 2015
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Then you wouldn't feel powerless if you managed to evade her punches, which would destroy the purpose of the whole scene.

Yeah. I actually think it would make an interesting thread to go over hopeless fights in games and which people thought did it well and which didn't. I know the Kai Leng fight was the kinda recent one that most people hated.

I would like to see them add some female enemies if they really want to be diverse. The idea that bad guys have to be men just reasserts the notion that men are disposable.
I'd like more of this as well especially in a Last of Us sequel. Technical limitations were given as a reason in games before, but that doesn't seem like a reason now.
 

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Sep 14, 2005
43,284
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www.playism-games.com
I really liked the epilogue in Uncharted 4 BECAUSE of what they did. It was neat.

Why does this anger people? I don't understand.

I actually thought they'd delve deeper into Nadine's character than they did, which is a shame. Also, playing Nate's daughter at the end was a beautiful touch. What kind of a psychopath do you have to be to be offended by that? Heh. [/spoiler]

100% agree.
 

the_batman

Banned
May 29, 2013
7,585
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now that i think about it,
Nate and Elena shoud've had TWO kids at the end, a girl and boy. they can be a new adventuring duo..

"Hey, Victor, come see what I found in mom and dad's storage room.."
"What is it, big sis"
"It's a map leading to (insert lost city here).."
 

SomTervo

Member
Jan 19, 2015
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To be honest it never made sense, it was all a bunch of "women are hard to animate" nonsense.

I can imagine it not being a case of difficulty but that it would require too many resources. Imagine doubling the already-substantial animation count in the game. Like you wouldn't be able to use the same animation set for all the men in the game, women would be able to mirror a few of them but would need their own suite for a handful of things to account for different bodytype/height etc. That might add more time to develop than ND had in the schedule, or take up more on-board memory than they can spare. Naughty Dog games are already brimming with animations.
 

Dragon_Rocks

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Jul 12, 2013
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If you think about it, there are no completely good men in Uncharted 4. All male characters are portrayed to be on the bad side of the spectrum.

Nate - Career criminal, has been to jail several times, cheats Elena in Uncharted 1, lies to her in Uncharted 4.

Sully - Similar to Nate

Sam - Similar to Nate and lies to Nate to get his help.

Rafe - Obvious

Nate's boss - Ready to indulge in illegal things for his profit

Nate's Dad - As per what was told to us in story he was bad father and husband.

On the other hand almost all female characters are good and strongly portrayed:

Elena - Obvious

Nate's Mom - Strong willed, took good care of her kids, was good at what she did, no involvement in any questionable activities (based on whatever we are told).

Nate's Mom's boss - Strong independent woman, gives Nate and Sam their Mom's property back, didn't blindly shoot them for her protection but held them at gun point and called the cops (she didn't simply shoot even hen she did not know that they were kids due to darkness) etc.

Nadine - At least from game's point of view she only started attacking Nate and co. after they stole what should legally belong to her employer/partner as they won it in the auction. So technically Nate and co. attacked them by stealing from them and she reacted like any mercenary would do. She didn't kill Nate and Sam (and Rafe) when she had the chance to in the end and left. Not completely a good person but probably justified in her actions.

Cassie - Innocent kid

So yeah, the game is a masterpiece but it is one sided when comes to character morals. Just because the main male characters are likable does not justify the bad things they do or have done while almost all females are on the good side of the spectrum.

Like the question they were asked, can we not ask them that what if Nadine was purely evil and tried to kill Nate, Sam and Rafe to get all the treasure (and died in the process)? Would that have changed anything overall in the game but only that in the end she dies as well along with Rafe?
 

Auctopus

Member
Apr 6, 2014
13,924
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This topic ruin everything for me. For the ending :
For me, the daughter was a reference to Tomb Raider, as Ucharted was clearly inspired by Tomb Raider. It was a way to finish the loop.
Telling me it was just, why not, is kind of ruining what might have been a thank you to the inspiration.

To be fair, that was a bit of a stretch anyway.
 

OmegaX0

Member
Oct 30, 2014
491
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Eh. It was annoying. At least let us dodge her attacks or something like that final fight with Rafe.

It's pretty inconsistent if you compare the fights. If Nate is supposed to be some random dude getting by on luck then he shouldn't be getting so many hits in on Rafe, who is implied to be a trained fencer.
 

SomTervo

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Jan 19, 2015
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If you think about it, there are no completely good men in Uncharted 4. All male characters are portrayed to be on the bad side of the spectrum.


Nate's Mom's boss - Strong independent woman, gives Nate and Sam their Mom's property back, didn't blindly shoot them for her protection but held them at gun point and called the cops (she didn't simply shoot even hen she did not know that they were kids due to darkness) etc.

Nadine - At least from game's point of view she only started attacking Nate and co. after they stole what should legally belong to her employer/partner as they won it in the auction. So technically Nate and co. attacked them by stealing from them and she reacted like any mercenary would do. She didn't kill Nate and Sam (and Rafe) when she had the chance to in the end and left. Not completely a good person but probably justified in her actions.

1. 'Strong independent woman' is not at all the story with the old woman in the mansion.

Did you read any of the side texts in that area?

She pushed away everyone she loved to the extent that they shunned her. She refused to help a friend's son. Seriously, go back to the bit in her room with the hospital-like bed, and read the letter from the asian guy. He pretty much hates her, says she's a prick, and that he never wants to hear from her again.

She's just as flawed as Nate is. Except, unlike Nate - who almost ruined his life for the cause - she did ruin her life. She's far more embittered and angry about everything. She was evidently mean-spirited and antisocial. She is not 'all good'. Until she knew Nate was Cassandra's daughter, she was legit about to shoot a fucking child.

2. Nadine is in no way 'completely good'. She's a mercenary. She owns a company who's business is killing people or killing to protect people - for money, not for a passion for history like the Drakes. It's clear from how Sully speaks to her that she is dangerous af and has no qualms. She throws Nate out a window and tries to shoot him more than once.

3. In the rest of the series you've also got Chloe who is definitely Chaotic Neutral.
 

Reedirect

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Jul 28, 2014
1,404
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Only part that actually confused me regarding genders was why there were no female enemies. Especially with Nadine as the leader you'd think she'd be interested in diversifying her group a tiny bit.

As much as we scream for diversity in videogames, female enemies in non-cartoony, realistic looking games are still mostly a no-no. And Drake already had to deal with being a "mass murderer".
 

SomTervo

Member
Jan 19, 2015
15,314
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I just realised – the Sidekicks in multiplayer all have female variants. The minigun-carrying brutes get female voices too and shout badass aggressive shit just like the male brutes. It's pretty great.

As much as we scream for diversity in videogames, female enemies in non-cartoony, realistic looking games are still mostly a no-no. And Drake already had to deal with being a "mass murderer".

I think the only game I've seen get it right was AC Syndicate, where it was really refreshing to encounter just as many female goons as male ones.

Definitely on the cartoony end of the spectrum, though.
 

Dragon_Rocks

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Jul 12, 2013
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Did you read any of the side texts in that area?

She pushed away everyone she loved to the extent that they shunned her. She refused to help a friend's son. Seriously, go back to the bit in her room with the hospital-like bed, and read the letter from the asian guy. He pretty much hates her, says she's a prick, and that he never wants to hear from her again.

She's just as flawed as Nate is. Except, unlike Nate - who almost ruined his life for the cause - she did ruin her life. She's far more embittered and angry about everything. She was evidently mean-spirited and antisocial. She is not 'all good'. Until she knew Nate was Cassandra's daughter, she was legit about to shoot a fucking child.

2. Nadine is in no way 'completely good'. She's a mercenary. She owns a company who's business is killing people or killing to protect people - for money, not for a passion for history like the Drakes. It's clear from how Sully speaks to her that she is dangerous af and has no qualms. She throws Nate out a window and tries to shoot him more than once.

3. In the rest of the series you've also got Chloe who is definitely Chaotic Neutral.

I've read all the notes and what I meant was that she stuck by what she believed and was living alone without any support. She may be a miserable person but not a criminal in any way. She was not involved in anything illegal from the info that was given. She was not going to shoot them unless it was a life threatening risk for her. She clearly told them that she has called the police and she did not want to shoot them but would do if they meant to harm her, She didn't know who these kids were and for all she knew they would kill her.

Nadine is a mercenary and she did what mercenaries do when put in a situation that Nate and crew created. She and Rafe would have simply won the bid in the auction and would have gone their way. Would she have bothered attacking Nate and co. if they didn't start a confrontation with her and partner? For all the damage Nate and Sam did to her and her group she did not choose to kill them both in cold blood in the end when she very well could have. Instead she chose to leave them to their fate and leave. What impact would the game have had if she was left as a pure villain who also died in the end? Why choose to let her suddenly change her mind and not kill Nate/Sam when she had a very good chance to even though earlier she was very much ready to do so?

This discussion is only about characters in Uncharted 4 so Chloe doesn't fit here.
 

OmegaX0

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Oct 30, 2014
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She pushed away everyone she loved to the extent that they shunned her. She refused to help a friend's son. Seriously, go back to the bit in her room with the hospital-like bed, and read the letter from the asian guy. He pretty much hates her, says she's a prick, and that he never wants to hear from her again.

Wasn't that letter from her own son? I thought the story was that the son was living with the father and she was too caught up in her work to visit her family, even when the father fell ill and died.
 
Jun 27, 2010
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It shouldn't be funny but I'm picturing this guy falling to his knees, with tears in his eyes and crying out "not you too ND. Goddammit. You were the chosen ones"...and it's hilarious.
 

zsynqx

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Sep 5, 2015
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Wasn't that letter from her own son? I thought the story was that the son was living with the father and she was too caught up in her work to visit her family, even when the father fell ill and died.

You are correct. Evelyn was married to Ken and the note in that room was from their son..
 

SomTervo

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Jan 19, 2015
15,314
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I've read all the notes and what I meant was that she stuck by what she believed and was living alone without any support. She may be a miserable person but not a criminal in any way. She was not involved in anything illegal from the info that was given. She was not going to shoot them unless it was a life threatening risk for her. She clearly told them that she has called the police and she did not want to shoot them but would do if they meant to harm her, She didn't know who these kids were and for all she knew they would kill her.

I feel like there's a bit of a double standard here. Going by the metrics in your paragraph there: Sam, Sully and Rafe all stick by what they believe and have lived alone without any support. All of the men in the game, except Rafe, only fight/shoot/kill when they are being threatened (this has been the case in every Uncharted game). If this old woman, Evelyn, was in Nate's shoes in any gunfight in the game, regardless of her ostensible 'by the law' attitude (which is never confirmed) she would have fought, too. That's the point. She is an elderly mirror of what Nate could become. But she pushes Elena (her husband Ken) away rather than becoming closer.

None of what you said negates the fact that she pushed away her family who now hugely resent her and are estranged. She is exactly the same as Nate, except that Nate comes to the mature conclusion that he should talk to Elena about it, and they get closer. The old lady never did that. She removed herself from her husband and family, to keep having adventures and treasure hunting, to the point that they cut off all ties.

Imagine if the game ended with Nate ignoring Elena and going on more adventures, to the point that she divorced him. Nate would be a prick, a 'bad guy', right? That's exactly, exactly what this old woman did. But you're not here justifying Nate's choices as 'his conviction' etc.

Nadine is a mercenary and she did what mercenaries do when put in a situation that Nate and crew created. She and Rafe would have simply won the bid in the auction and would have gone their way. Would she have bothered attacking Nate and co. if they didn't start a confrontation with her and partner? For all the damage Nate and Sam did to her and her group she did not choose to kill them both in cold blood in the end when she very well could have. Instead she chose to leave them to their fate and leave. What impact would the game have had if she was left as a pure villain who also died in the end? Why choose to let her suddenly change her mind and not kill Nate/Sam when she had a very good chance to even though earlier she was very much ready to do so?

Nate is a treasure hunter and did what any human being would do when put in a situation that Nadine and Rafe created.

Leaving Nate, Rafe and Sam to die was exactly the same as killing them in cold blood. She left them for dead. She just didn't waste her bullets and wanted to save herself first.

You're not wrong that Nate and Sam 'started' the whole thing at the auction, but... What does that have to do with anything? None of them are 'good guys'. None of them are 'bad guys'. They just all have their own agenda. That goes for everyone, including Elena who starts coming around to the treasure hunting again by the end, despite the dangers they've experienced.

I think you're justifying the elegance of the 'all males are problematic' argument with increasingly convoluted logic. The whole point of characters in any fiction is that they are flawed. Because human beings are flawed. Every single character in Uncharted 4 is flawed in some way. You're just trying to differentiate based on 'law', based on predetermined distinctions of what men or women should be (your phrase 'strong independant woman' gave that away) and based on reductive readings of various situations in the game.

Wasn't that letter from her own son? I thought the story was that the son was living with the father and she was too caught up in her work to visit her family, even when the father fell ill and died.

You are correct. Evelyn was married to Ken and the note in that room was from their son..

I may have misread it. I was on hour 8 of straight playing and it was 1am on a work night when I read it, haha.

Regardless, she basically pushed everyone away.
 
Jun 10, 2014
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It shouldn't be funny but I'm picturing this guy falling to his knees, with tears in his eyes and crying out "not you too ND. Goddammit. You were the chosen ones"...and it's hilarious.