Not a knock on Bones, but a knock on his skills. He's a good fighter, but he's god's gift to fighting because of his skills or his "crazy moves." He's lanky and athletic, and he uses those gifts well, but he's also cheap. That hand holding thing was cheap. When he touches the ground so he doesn't get kicked in the face, that's cheap too. He gets by on his physical advantages more so than on skill. That's all I'm saying.
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UFC 145 |OT| A Special Night with Jon Jones
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Not a knock on Bones, but a knock on his skills. He's a good fighter, but he's god's gift to fighting because of his skills or his "crazy moves." He's lanky and athletic, and he uses those gifts well, but he's also cheap. That hand holding thing was cheap. When he touches the ground so he doesn't get kicked in the face, that's cheap too. He gets by on his physical advantages more so than on skill. That's all I'm saying.
Isn't using your gifts skillful? That's the difference between being Bones and being Struve.
Ninja Scooter
Member
that's just crazy. His skill has been improving steadily each fight, and the things you call "cheap" are smart, sometimes unpredictable techniques that throw his opponents off. His ability to be relentless and aggressive but still smart and think on his feet quickly is pretty remarkable.
Again, it's like saying Hendo is cheap and just getting by on his physical gifts because he just loads up on that right.
Having some physical advantages is one thing, but using them and imposing them on your opponents AT WILL the say Bones does is another thing altogether. There are plenty of basketball players who are 7 feet tall or can jump out of the gym, but not all of them become hall of famers.
That's more gameplanning, I think, to which I credit Greg "get some fans" Jackson.
Edit: once again, Ninja, I'm not knocking JBJ as a fighter. He's a beast. But you have to acknowledge that he had a tremendous physical advantage over every single opponent in his last few fights. His greatest skill, like Heel said, is utilizing his physical gifts.
Hendo is a poor counter example too, I think. Yes, he has knockout power, but so do many of other fights. Now, if he had an 80 inch reach in addition to that knockout power and no one could get in striking distance with him.... Yet Hendo fights bigger guys without complaint.
It's hilariously idiotic and petty to try to use an athlete's physical advantages as a strike AGAINST them. Welcome to sports. Man, Wilt sure was tall. Damn, MJ certainly had a significant quickness and jumping advantage over almost everyone. Clearly they were just supreme athletes, nothing more.
Ninja Scooter
Member
of course he does. It's mixed martial arts. It's two guys engaging in hand to hand combat. Most likely, the whoever wins an MMA match had one sort of physical advantage over his opponent. This isn't chess.
TheKaeptain
Banned
My biggest problem is how Jones is always adding more things to his skill set but not correcting his flaws in the the most basic shit. Shad was able to land a few shots because Jones likes to drop his hand after he jab's someone. The way he leaves his arms out while in someone's guard also bothers me.
The thing is he's only 24. It's crazy to think he's green and still developing the "skill" you require that only comes with being a seasoned veteran. Imagine him with a few more years under his belt.
Host Samurai
Member
Can you imagine Jones in Pride? No elbows buddy and Shogun head stomps for dinner and Wand soccer kicks for dessert for Jones.
Host Samurai
Member
Joe Rogan even said that Jones reach is the biggest advantage in UFC history and having a big reach advantage is the best advantage you can have in an MMA fight. Watch the fight again and listen to the commentary.
TheNatural
My Member!
So what's your point? A shocker that the more physically gifted guy is the one who's dominating?
Ali had the footwork of a guy several weight classes down with the power of a heavyweight and great reach as well. Is it unfair he's probably the greatest boxer of all time?
Ninja Scooter
Member
yeah he could have had the Yakuza pay his opponents to lose on purpose and had an even MORE impressive record!
So you're saying they should ban elbows?
TheNatural
My Member!
PRIDE is always the nostalgic haven for haters of anyone good nowadays.
"Jones thinks he so great but if he were in PRIDE with that era Shogun he would jump off Antonio Inoki's back with a wheel kick and knock him into Bas' announcing table and the PRIDE theme would play while animu girls danced on his grave wooooo"
I understand what you're getting at. Believe me, if Bones ever reaches Klitschko status I'll be the first to complain. Here's no where near that, though.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Host Samurai
Member
Noway. Its just a different game when playing in Pride. The one thing I don't like about elbows is that they can cause cuts which can end fights prematurely.
How is he arrogant though? Dude is one of the best around so I don't have any problems with him being cocky.
He would throw guys to ground and stomp them to death? Or he would take guys down(which he is the best at doing in the division) and knee them in the head until the tap? He beat shogun on the feet anyways so I'm not seeing how pride rules would help Shogun. You have a better chance of taking down Jones in the UFC because of the rules and the cage than you do pride.
Hong Man Choi has one of the hugest size advantages around, but somehow he's not dominating in MMA. A lot of people simply don't like Bones, so they are looking for any excuse to hate. Reach is an advantage, but it takes skill to use, just as being compact and explosive is an advantage of it's own.
DKehoe
Member
He would have had a whole load of steroids to make up for it though.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Shogun probably wishes he had a cut to end his beat down prematurely.
Host Samurai
Member
Hes also not athletic, probably doesn't train in a good camp has a goofy build and is fighting strong HW's. Nobody is saying that Jones sucks and has no skills we are just saying that his size and reach play a big part of his success. Rashad looked a solid 2 weight classes below Jones.
ahahah this pretty much sums up every jones hater's position so succinctly
buh buh buh his body's more better so that's like ... not fair and stuff
What exactly would change in pride? Joes is better than Shogun at everything. We also already know Shogun can't stand up to Jones power because every time Jones hit Shogun in their fight Shogun got rubber legs. I don't see Shogun beating him in pride and I don't see a prime Wand beating him either because Wand is too small and not technical enough to rush Jones while avoiding the cross.
Host Samurai
Member
I see a Pride era Shogun actually fighting back and utilizing leg kicks and kicks in general. Shogun hasn't kicked anybody since Machida. Wand is a guy that will "go for broke" He was like a crazy baboon in Pride and has very fast recovery time. I see him getting inside Jones and kneeing him till he hits the ground than soccer kicking him in the face.
Right. Because Hong Man Choi is an extremely athletic guy, not a slow lumbering person who is big because of a medical condition. Jesus.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
Jones would still be favoured to win against Pride-era Shogun, but I think Shogun's aggressiveness and explosiveness would give him a far better chance to win, and we would've seen a much better fight. A lot of people think Shogun vs Hendo was a great match... it was, but it was also really depressing to watch fat, slow, one-dimensional Shogun lumber around the ring.
TheNatural
My Member!
Maybe you should get that checked out. Sounds like the early signs of delusional schizophrenia.
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
Wanderlei is one of the most overrated fighters ever. I came to believe this many years ago because my first introductions to him were in UFC fights, both of which he lost. Belfort absolutely murdered him and Tito Ortiz dominated him thoroughly (Wanderlei spent 95% of the fight on his back). Then, when I first saw him in Pride, I was completely unimpressed by his standup game, which involved a lot of wild punches and the prayer that they would hit. He also fought a ton of cans. I was late to get into Pride, so when I did I was very surprised at how highly regarded he was. Great fighter, but he never had an aura of invincibility because the holes in his game were so obvious and he was dominated by several fighters early in his career. Jones would've killed Wanderlei.
parrotbeak
Member
I agree if Shogun and Wand fought Jones when Jones was 15 or 16, they probably would have won.
Dat Zuffa brainwash. How about one of the greatest fighters ever to put 4oz gloves on? I'm done here.
I see Jones overpowering both of these guys and feeding them north-south knees until they black out or judo toss and then stomps until they black out. Shogun wouldn't last long enough for his leg kicks to be effective. Neither guy would get a chance to recover if Jones got a hold of either guy in the clinch and got a takedown. Clinching with Jones is the wrong to do. The only person that would be eating anything is the guy that was dumb enough to clinch with Jones. Jones would still be bigger, stronger, quicker and more powerful than both guys.
Rashad is a better athlete than Shogun ever was and he had problems getting in on Jones. Machida is a slick striker than actually got in on Jones and for his troubles he got wrecked after Jones came out for the second round and then choked out. Shogun's head movement was even worse back then. He would have tried to rush Jones and would have ate a right cross or would have gotten judo tossed.
Jones didn't beat a Prime Shogun
guy has no knees anymore. out there looking like Penny Hardaway and shit.
AwesomeSauce
MagsMoonshine
Jones will legit kill anyone at 205 past , or present.
You're talking about the Shogun that won the belt from Machida? The same one that most people said was better than ever after he won the belt? Shogun was only over the hill after Jones dominated him. A lot of people thought he would expose Jones. The only thing that happened is that Jones showed that MMA is still young. He showed that the game will be different when the better athletes start taking part in MMA instead of other sports.
The only guy I can think of from the past that might have a small chance is Couture. And only because he finds ways to take guys down in the clinch.
...........
OpinionatedCyborg
Member
All of his opponents have had a small chance. Hendo will have a small chance (a very small chance). Jones is the superior athlete and fighter, but there's always a chance he'll get caught with a punch or get a freak injury. I agree that Couture would do better against Jones than many of Jones' recent opponents.
Being great and being overrated aren't mutually exclusive. I've seen nearly all of his fights since 1998 (every UFC and Pride fight), and I'm comfortable with my assessment of Wanderlei. I saw people in this thread ranking him as the best LHW (Pride middleweight) of all time, which is crazy.
Dat Zuffa brainwash. How about one of the greatest fighters ever to put 4oz gloves on? I'm done here.
I have a friend who thinks elbows should be banned from the UFC for this reason. Personally I disagree. I don't really view cut stoppages as premature. To me if you cut someone open so badly that they can no longer see, then that is just as legitimite a way to win a fight as by KO or sub.
As far as Jones losing to Shogun or Wand in his prime, honestly I think a prime Liddell would give Jones a better fight than anybody. His counter-punching style and great defensive wrestling would help him. We saw Rashad connect with a good overhand right saturday, well that is Liddell's signature punch.
Ninja Scooter
Member
There's only going to be more and more great, young athletic fighters like Jones in the next 10 years or so when youth and high school football gets more and more regulated (and outright banned) and kids are steered towards other sports.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
Posting in this thread even though it's probably not a good idea (been away from the internet for a few days). Bullet point time!
- LOL at the hybrid fraud. Very satisfied.
- I picked Hominick-Yagin as a potential FOTN but the fact that it got it shows how lacklustre the entire card was.
- The main event went pretty much to expectations, but I was (shock horror) hoping to see more wrestling. I don't know why anyone was predicting a blowout, the fight against On-Rails Weapons-Platform Shogun seems to have coloured people's expectations of Jones. Rashad had some moments of decent infighting (good combo somewhere in the first I believe) before proceeding to spend the majority of the fight ignoring Tyrone ***** after the awesome elbows (these were probably the most impressive standing strikes I've seen Jones throw). Jon seemed content to coast even with Evans sitting there like a stunned mullet, maybe he was reticent to grapple with Shad in the middle of a round. Jones' striking looked much improved (barely any tripping!) but there are still holes obviously, if short-ass Rashad was going to hit him with anything a head kick was way down on the list... maybe that's why it worked?
- Hendo has a puncher's chance, but I'm excited for the fight because it's going to be a finish. Either Hendo causes the most entertaining fallout since Werdum wrapped his legs around Fedor's neck/Anderson did the same to Chael or Jones does whatever he wants to round 3+ lifeless Dan.
- Lyoto is the only one I'd bet on against Jon; not because he's a guaranteed win but because there's no way the odds would be accurate. He needs to work on keeping his head safe during his straight counters, because people (should) know what to do against it and the second he slows down they can get it to work. Keeping an almost perfect fight for 3 to 4 rounds in his style is also going to be hell on his cardio. His last fight with Jones something (rumours of pneumonia? King Mo said something was up) had him doing the Shane Carwin dance of mana rejuvenation throughout the second, but even when healthy he slowed against Shogun (leg kicks probably accelerated that). I don't think he could finish Jones (if the fight goes his way) even with his great killer instinct as Jones' clinch and resetting of distance with an outstretched hand are great for forcing recovery time.
- If we're playing PRIDE fantasy matchups, 205 Reem is my suggestion. The first five to ten would be a crazy storm of flying knees, guillotine attempts and clinch tosses, with Overeem and the ring/ruleset negating Jones' physical advantages. The second round Jones would either sub or GnP TKO Alistair. Not sure about Jones' GnP without elbows though, has he ever got a stoppage on the ground via punches?
- LOL at the hybrid fraud. Very satisfied.
- I picked Hominick-Yagin as a potential FOTN but the fact that it got it shows how lacklustre the entire card was.
- The main event went pretty much to expectations, but I was (shock horror) hoping to see more wrestling. I don't know why anyone was predicting a blowout, the fight against On-Rails Weapons-Platform Shogun seems to have coloured people's expectations of Jones. Rashad had some moments of decent infighting (good combo somewhere in the first I believe) before proceeding to spend the majority of the fight ignoring Tyrone ***** after the awesome elbows (these were probably the most impressive standing strikes I've seen Jones throw). Jon seemed content to coast even with Evans sitting there like a stunned mullet, maybe he was reticent to grapple with Shad in the middle of a round. Jones' striking looked much improved (barely any tripping!) but there are still holes obviously, if short-ass Rashad was going to hit him with anything a head kick was way down on the list... maybe that's why it worked?
- Hendo has a puncher's chance, but I'm excited for the fight because it's going to be a finish. Either Hendo causes the most entertaining fallout since Werdum wrapped his legs around Fedor's neck/Anderson did the same to Chael or Jones does whatever he wants to round 3+ lifeless Dan.
- Lyoto is the only one I'd bet on against Jon; not because he's a guaranteed win but because there's no way the odds would be accurate. He needs to work on keeping his head safe during his straight counters, because people (should) know what to do against it and the second he slows down they can get it to work. Keeping an almost perfect fight for 3 to 4 rounds in his style is also going to be hell on his cardio. His last fight with Jones something (rumours of pneumonia? King Mo said something was up) had him doing the Shane Carwin dance of mana rejuvenation throughout the second, but even when healthy he slowed against Shogun (leg kicks probably accelerated that). I don't think he could finish Jones (if the fight goes his way) even with his great killer instinct as Jones' clinch and resetting of distance with an outstretched hand are great for forcing recovery time.
- If we're playing PRIDE fantasy matchups, 205 Reem is my suggestion. The first five to ten would be a crazy storm of flying knees, guillotine attempts and clinch tosses, with Overeem and the ring/ruleset negating Jones' physical advantages. The second round Jones would either sub or GnP TKO Alistair. Not sure about Jones' GnP without elbows though, has he ever got a stoppage on the ground via punches?
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