Sorry for the OT, but is there any kind of list of reddit astroturfers?
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Ukraine/Russia conflict NEWS thread - Updates on the Ukrainian crisis.
- Thread starter CitizenVectron
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Sorry for the OT, but is there any kind of list of reddit astroturfers?
No list. I lurk the Ukrainian Conflict subreddit. It's like the Astrodome in there. After a few weeks it's pretty easy to spot the difference between astroturfers and Russian citizens.
Also RT was banned because of the content they put out. Many news threads were created using RT as the main source. It was right around the Arab Spring that they were banned. If I remember correctly people began to point out that Alex Jones was a contributor/expert for RT and soon after it was banned.
Phantast2k
Member
Apparently this is from Luhansk, half a hour ago or so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP9xY5iO7Bo
/what's strange about the footage: who puts an HD cam on the windowsill to film the city at night? Smells like a Russian casus belli.
No way this left people on the ground unharmed, RIP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CP9xY5iO7Bo
/what's strange about the footage: who puts an HD cam on the windowsill to film the city at night? Smells like a Russian casus belli.
No way this left people on the ground unharmed, RIP.
Dictator93
Member
What the hell was that? shit.
Funky Papa
FUNK-Y-PPA-4
People at warzones expecting shit to go down. That's my guess.
It looks like whoever bombed the place knocked a power plant out.
Guileless
Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
I think an RT story about aliens contributed to the banning.
EricTheCleric
Member
it is part of a script decided in Kremlin
"Ukraine" continues to attack the civilians despite the ceasefire.
Russia heeds requests from "Russians" in east Ukraine to protect them and "deploys peacekeepers".
Resident_UA
Member
Unofficially Russian "peacekeepers" are already there... Ukraine has no reason to advance on Luhansk... Plus Minsk agreements are not in effect yet. No idea what this is about.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
I think Russia is doing this to get the sanctions lifted, it will be easy for Hollande/Merkel/etc to push for this, they just needed an excuse, and the US will quickly be isolated on that if they want to maintain them.
Then, Russia will proceed again, and there is no way Europe will once again reinstate the sanctions, because domestically it wouldn't fly anymore and the whole objective is just to have a narrative to remove the sanctions; they'll be much more inclined to accuse the Ukrainian government of being irresponsible instead once the sanctions are removed. Ukraine will end up in the same situation Goergia found itself, with no one to back them.
Europe has weighted the cost of the sanctions and they prefer to drop Ukraine. They just need an excuse to be able to reestablish trade with Russia.
Then, Russia will proceed again, and there is no way Europe will once again reinstate the sanctions, because domestically it wouldn't fly anymore and the whole objective is just to have a narrative to remove the sanctions; they'll be much more inclined to accuse the Ukrainian government of being irresponsible instead once the sanctions are removed. Ukraine will end up in the same situation Goergia found itself, with no one to back them.
Europe has weighted the cost of the sanctions and they prefer to drop Ukraine. They just need an excuse to be able to reestablish trade with Russia.
SymbiantXenos
Member
So it falls apart in less than a day.
Saw that coming. Can also smell a Russian provocation.
Sigh....
Saw that coming. Can also smell a Russian provocation.
Sigh....
Yeah, that'd be the blue explosion, probably.
As a Brit, I am exceptionally proud of the French and specifically the Germans, Merkel has alot to be proud of, first discouraging any escalation and now holding off Putin. It is a pity a compromise couldn't have been found months ago that could have saved many lives.
I suspect the integrity of this cease fire, completely depends on the credibility and lawful democratics adhered to in favour of the people around the border. I would guess Putin can live with Ukraine, (providing a diligent reform of its constitution are in the complete interests of its people) joining the EU, aslong has his theory of the bordered counties get political freedom and act as a buffer between the rest of the EU and Russia, Crimea will never be on the table so long as a western interests are proxied in Kiev though.
A day of positivity, hopefully the Ukrainians can take politics into their own hands now and act for their own people, seems a long struggle is ahead, considering they were nearly bankrupt until recent loans. Europe can breath.
I suspect the integrity of this cease fire, completely depends on the credibility and lawful democratics adhered to in favour of the people around the border. I would guess Putin can live with Ukraine, (providing a diligent reform of its constitution are in the complete interests of its people) joining the EU, aslong has his theory of the bordered counties get political freedom and act as a buffer between the rest of the EU and Russia, Crimea will never be on the table so long as a western interests are proxied in Kiev though.
A day of positivity, hopefully the Ukrainians can take politics into their own hands now and act for their own people, seems a long struggle is ahead, considering they were nearly bankrupt until recent loans. Europe can breath.
This isn't over. Russia will continue the push.
Phantast2k
Member
Gemüsepizza;151780106 said:
The country is under attack. Sending people to their death (ill-equipped or not) is what countries do when being attacked. It's what Finns did as a functioning country and it's what Afghans did as a failed country. Both were able to repel an overwhelmingly more powerful Soviet Union (Russia).
Russia will not unleash a full-blown war on Ukraine. They lack the resources, they are very afraid of the consequences. They bluff. Europe fails for it.
What do you mean by that? There was no rebellion before Russia with help of Russian citizens didn't create one.Gemüsepizza;151781093 said:
Besides: Support for separatism in southern and eastern Ukraine is lower than you think - The Washington Post
First Russia had breached the border "on foot" (as seen by their taking of Kramatorsk and Sloviansk and admitted by Strelkov). They also had agents in Mariupol, Odessa, but failed.
Then they started attacking the first border posts from inside (and from civilian housing), like so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUy7MYbSx-0
Then they started shelling border posts from outside with MLRS and artillery. There is literally no way Ukraine could withstand that pressure without loosing control over their border.
Of course, but it still doesn't seem like amateur footage of any other shelling which was filmed in Ukraine (and I which I've seen).
Well, Finland only temporarily. Soviets eventually threw enough of their people into the meat grinder that they were able to take Karelia, and with it, Finland's second largest city at the time (Viipuri).
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Russia shares land borders with Norway, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland (via Kaliningrad) and has a maritime border with the Untied States via Alaska. All of these countries are NATO member states.
It's too late to shut the gate once the horse has bolted.
What does this even mean. Putin threw a shitfit over Ukraine making a *free trade* pact with Europe, let alone joining. Is this "political freedom"? How can they both have political freedom AND act as a buffer if acting as a buffer means non-association (or rather "association with anyone other than Russia")?
And holy crap at holding Putin as some kind of standard bearer for any sort of freedom at all.
There seems to be wide support for these sanctions among the populace, atleast here in the Netherlands, so I have no idea where you are getting the bolded from.
The cost of the sanctions are a drop of water on a hot plate, relative to the total EU economy.
For the sanctions to be lifted Russia would have to comply with the Minsk agreement(s) and serious progress needs to be visible on the ground first. Until then, new sanctions are likely to be implemented next week:
Personally, I wouldn't support the lifting of sanctions until Ukraine's internal sovereignty has fully been restored, including Crimea.
bonesmccoy
Banned
Lol... no dude. What the Germans and French are trying to do is the minimal they can so they can stop the sanctions. Appeasing Russia is pretty much the game plan for them at the cost of Ukraine. Sorry, but they get no kudos from me.
It isn't even about Ukraine to EU anymore. I wish U.S would just arm Ukraine anyways.
Phantast2k
Member
I'll give you that, but the course of action for Ukraine and the world should be clear: make Donbas into a meat grinder for Russian troops while making Russia bleed economically.
There is no other way with this Russia. Moral reasoning or some noble motives won't work here. Putin especially does not give a flying fuck. He is used to stepping over corpses.
It's pretty clear to me what Kremlin wants now. They want to meander between peace and war while finding new ways to survive the sanctions, while everyone forgets about Crimea, while destabilizing Ukraine further and further to make it a failed state.
/note that all of this is tactical, not strategical. There is no strategy in place in this Kremlin. The current course of action is not meant for long-term survival.
The risks for them are immeasurable and they completely underestimated the economic and diplomatic consequences (they are especially shocked at how fast Germany turned away from what I've read). Also Merkel keeps mentioning Crimea at every opportunity she gets.
Interestingly enough Kremlin had a phase of uncertainty around July with unexpected Ukrainian advances ("oh shit, they actually fight back") and MH17. Around that time their inner propaganda had a narrative like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXGHIgM2zCs (activate subs)
Even with all the insane propaganda this is much like the Cold War and Afghanistan even though Russia will fall apart much faster.
The political freedom I am referring too is nothing to do with Putin, im saying so long as the people are given a fair vote, some of the bordering counties could swing eitherway if given the chance, given the ethnicity and language, the new regimes decision to ban Russian as a regional language won't do any favours for those people. Crimea is different, regardless of the legality off it's annex given its demographics and Interests.
Not sure even if east-Ukraine do want to permanently defect that the current government or interested parties would accept it, or not sure about Putin vice versa, although they were happy to once relinquish it from the USSR, not sure what argument could be made for the other eastern counties apart from Crimea being worth a hostile action, since only it holds their main interest as their only Warm water port, housing a vast majority of their fleet.
You've definitely miss interpreted my context of freedom. I was talking about freedom of the people to decide their own future, given the impeachment of the corrupt government prior, not any assertion that Putin is the new Braveheart.
Im not really sure about the politics of the above mentioned countries but at a guess the Russians probably have more issue with a more pro-west installed government, thats why the suggestion that those 'buffer' counties may hold a little more strategic importance to him.
I'm still a little nervous about it all to be honest, anything could kick off.
Yeah I can see your point, sometimes you gotta accept the lesser evil, although not sure they have given up as such, but had to certainly given ground on diplomacy, they get the Kudos from me purely because of their balls to stand up and mediate. Another war would have been shit scary, one that may not be so scary on the otherside of the pond.
The Russians need to get out of the mindset that other sovereign countries are 'buffer' countries. Sovereign countries should be free to determine their own path, and which alliances they join, and which treaties they sign.
Curious to see how Russia is going to react to the US sending in a Battalion from the 173rd Airborne Brigade to train 3 National Guard Battalions in Lviv for eventual deployment.
I imagine going to be lots of propaganda about US troops in Ukraine. I very much doubt there will be peace with this agreement. The US already came out and told Russia that the "rebels" need to cease all hostility now and not on the 15th. Not to try and take Debaltsev etc
I imagine going to be lots of propaganda about US troops in Ukraine. I very much doubt there will be peace with this agreement. The US already came out and told Russia that the "rebels" need to cease all hostility now and not on the 15th. Not to try and take Debaltsev etc
Doesn't the US do joint exercises with Ukraine every year? As to when the fighting ends that is not the US's call. This arrangement was made between Russia, Ukraine, Germany, France and the Rebels. America should stay the fuck out of this as far I'm as I'm concerned, this is a European matter and it's not our problem. Obama also needs to shut up and stop provoking Putin, the man's crazy and has a tendency to call people's bluffs. I would prefer the US not be responsible for turning the whole of Ukraine into a war zone.
As Merkel said the problem is that the chance that ukrainian troops with western weapons somehow get putin thinking "oh shit i might lose" is next to zero. The ukranian army is fighting russian special forces, all these volunteer squads and part time soldiers without real combat training don't stand a chance against a professional russian army.
I was in the german army in the paratrooper division which had some special forces squads and we had no chance against them.
Now imagine volunteers without 12 months training fighting guys like this.
Look at the at the gains russian forces made in the last 1-2 months. Russia is gaining ground faster than the west could train a professional army capable of defending and gaining ground. As cruel as it sounds, eastern ukraine is lost and if putin wants more he can get it.
The west should have trained and supplied weapons last year, now it's too late.
And the best we can do is stop the bleeding
There have been occasional joint maneuvers but until recently the Military was pretty much a joke. It was a paper military while the actual military itself was quite small and underfunded.
Ukraine is serious about its military now so proper training while Ukraine is also dedicating funds does help turn its force into a much more proper force. 3 Battalions are not going to win the war or anything but 3 Properly trained and properly equipped battalions is a game changer in areas they go. The recent success of Batallion Azov comes from the fact they finally changed things up and broke standard operating procedures of the soviet doctrine as far as military operations. Instead of opening up with massive barrages to soften targets they instead got their forces and went in quiet and caught many positions completely off guard and were able to push the Russian lines back over 20 kilometers back to Novoazovsk and close to the Russian Border.
www.armyrecognition.com
Ukraine armed forces have taken delivery first batch of British-made 4x4 armoured vehicles AT105 Saxon. The vehicles were delivered to Odessa and transported by road to to Nikolaev and Kharkov to be upgraded. Ukroboronprom has purchased 75 armoured personnel carrier (APC) which were in storage in UK. The vehicles come with any weapons and will be equipped with a weapon station made in Ukraine.
UDPATE: Already been posted. Sorry.
Ukraine armed forces have taken delivery first batch of British-made 4x4 armoured vehicles AT105 Saxon. The vehicles were delivered to Odessa and transported by road to to Nikolaev and Kharkov to be upgraded. Ukroboronprom has purchased 75 armoured personnel carrier (APC) which were in storage in UK. The vehicles come with any weapons and will be equipped with a weapon station made in Ukraine.
UDPATE: Already been posted. Sorry.
They forgot an important word in this sentence.... "The vehicles DOESN'T come with any weapons"
Also why are you posting this again?
MisterFalcon
Member
Look at that medium machine gun on that fearsome NATO supplied beast of war. Better send another tank regiment into Donbass or it will be overrun by the Kiev nazis.
Mustafa Dzhemiliev banned by Russia as a ‘threat to national security’
http://khpg.org/index.php?id=1423783352
speculawyer
Member
Well the Norwegian border is short and up in the arctic. Alaska is separated by sea. Poland is big. But those 3 Baltic States must be very worried.
Russian forces continue battling to take territory in eastern Ukraine ahead of the ceasefire deadline, with 8 Ukrainian soldiers killed in the last 24 hours.
Meanwhile Merkel has warned of more sanctions against Russia if they continue supplying the "rebels" in Donbass. I'm not optimistic FWIW.
Meanwhile Merkel has warned of more sanctions against Russia if they continue supplying the "rebels" in Donbass. I'm not optimistic FWIW.
GTP_Daverytimes
Member
heh, Russian forces. Always gives me a chuckle when someone say's that.
jakonovski
Member
Russia is fucking invading and IMF wants to cut Ukraine's social programmes? What an insane dedication to a political agenda. Or extremely cynical and opportunist. Fuck them.
Little chance of a Russian invasion of the Baltics or even "little green men" without insignia popping up in Russian majority parts like Narva. But certainly Russian psy ops attempting to undermine the Baltic states are a cert.
What, you don't think Russian forces are directing the battle in Eastern Ukraine, despite the mountain of evidence showing direct Russian military involvement there?
Russia is now basically violating one of the provisions of the Agreement. Kremlin is now saying Pilot Nadia Savchenko will not be released and her fate is strictly up to the courts as she is a "criminal"
Background on Nadia. She is a Ukrainian Pilot who Russia claimed killed journalists then was captured trying to "escape" to Russia. After they realized since that was bull and they had no grounds they changed it to her being arrested for attempting to enter Russia Illegally. The problem is she was kidnapped in Eastern Ukraine and brought to Russia.
She has been on a Hunger Strike for many weeks now so situation is not very good.
Background on Nadia. She is a Ukrainian Pilot who Russia claimed killed journalists then was captured trying to "escape" to Russia. After they realized since that was bull and they had no grounds they changed it to her being arrested for attempting to enter Russia Illegally. The problem is she was kidnapped in Eastern Ukraine and brought to Russia.
She has been on a Hunger Strike for many weeks now so situation is not very good.
jakonovski
Member
Historically, Russia is pretty much incapable of treating any sort of prisoner humanely.
What do you mean? Which history do you refer to?
I cannot recall anything in modern Russia which may resemble the enhanced interrogation techniques in the US Guantanamo Bay.
If you do not refer to modern Russia. May be you mean medieval times? In this case I do not think that barbarian medieval russians could suppress the civilized European Holy Inquisition techniques.
Sinfamy
Member
Gulag.
Do we have to look at the Auschwitz times?
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
It's not that Russia might threaten them, I was just pointing out the absurdity of the idea that Russia needed a buffer state between it and Europe carved out of Ukraine since it already has direct borders in other places. To say nothing of Ukranie not actually being a NATO or EU member state.
ClosingADoor
Member
The Russian strategy: when in doubt, bring up World War 2.
I brought up modern times and medieval times. Then Sinfamy brought up the Soviet Union times.
Kill Your Masters
Member
Did they urge Serbs to stop too? No? right, because they fight on their side.
Bringing up counterpoints doesn't disprove his statement, you know.
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