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[pigeon interrupted]

Of course, that's only one (albeit prominent, and somewhat incendiary) example. Ether_Snake posted a much more comprehensive list.

Religion is a tool; so easy to bring the world to its knees. The more devout, the easier to press the buttons. Don't matter which denomination. What do people expect if they basically say: here is my most precious thing, here in the open: don't touch.

Of course some asshole is going to manipulate you. People's eyes glaze over and it begins. All I see is individuals on all sides.

 

[Resident_UA]

You'll notice those articles are all from way after the fact, and way after the revolutions were hailed as part of a glorious Arab spring. Or do you think the problems started in 2013?

Of course, the media eventually has to acknowledge a problem. Long after politicians have shaped the initial narrative. A more critical eye towards the revolutions in the first place might have been more befitting some sense of journalistic integrity.

Anyway, I am arguably derailing the thread.

Newsweek cover above is from earlier... Not sure why you had that assumption...

 

[commedieu]

You'll notice those articles are all from way after the fact, and way after the revolutions were hailed as part of a glorious Arab spring. Or do you think the problems started in 2013?

Of course, the media eventually has to acknowledge a problem. Long after politicians have shaped the initial narrative. A more critical eye towards the revolutions in the first place might have been more befitting some sense of journalistic integrity.

Anyway, I am arguably derailing the thread.

You can't derail a thread when you don't have a point.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Religion is a tool; so easy to bring the world to its knees. The more devout, the easier to press the buttons. Don't matter which denomination. What do people expect if they basically say: here is my most precious thing, here in the open: don't touch.

Of course some asshole is going to manipulate you. People's eyes glaze over and it begins. All I see is individuals on all sides.

What the fuck are you talking about?

 

[Resident_UA]

Religion is a tool; so easy to bring the world to it's knees. The more devout, the easier to press the buttons. Don't matter which denomination. What do people expect if they basically say: here is my most precious thing, here in the open: don't touch.

Of course some asshole is going to manipulate you. People's eyes glaze over and it begins. All I see is individuals on all sides.

This is a good reminder that everyone needs to watch "The Square". Documentary about revolution in Egypt.

 

[antonz]

Journalists who were at the Sevastopol Base Raid. others had hands broken etc

Some video footage of the attack on journalists including the person filming gets attacked

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQeIYaxwqF0

 

[pigeon interrupted]

What the fuck are you talking about?

Exactly what is in the words. Your religion can be used against you, the more pride you have in it, the easier to elicit a reaction. I'm not saying its just a tool, in the wrong hands it is.

 

[kingkitty]

mo, the solution is to have a free and fair referendum. Let the Crimean population decide if they want to join Russia.

I don't believe there's a law in Ukraine that allows Crimea to do this kind of referendum.

 

[Resident_UA]

Imagine if somebody with a Russian flag was treated this way... It's really sad state of affairs... Kinda proves that Putin's excuse is BS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYg1xx-yPSU&list=PLPnX89fQLdskWad1VxX92zjlYST8u6veL

 

[antonz]

I don't believe there's a law in Ukraine that allows Crimea to do this kind of referendum.

Correct The Constitution which Crimea approved only allows for National referendums. On top of that the Crimea Government was ousted by Russian Forces last week and Putin installed a Puppet government. So How can you even begin to have a fair referendum

 

[Dead Man]

Correct The Constitution which Crimea approved only allows for National referendums. On top of that the Crimea Government was ousted by Russian Forces last week and Putin installed a Puppet government. So How can you even big to have a fair referendum

Pfft, he cares not for these 'facts'.

 

[Madness]

Doubtful. People don't normally go to places with far worse economical conditions.

Oh, and besides, Crimean Tatars and Tatarstan Tatars are almost completely separate entities. There is really no reason for people to leave Tatarstan for Crimea.

I meant more in the sense if their doors are being marked with X's and if Crimea goes to Russia. Obviously Crimea where they've lived for many, many years is where they'd want to remain, or remain with Ukraine. But in the off chance they can't, maybe a place that shares many ethnic, religious, language and cultural ties would be appealing.

I wonder how many Tatars would go to Crimea if it came to Russia? A region that once belonged to them, much closer to other Turkic states etc.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Correct The Constitution which Crimea approved only allows for National referendums. On top of that the Crimea Government was ousted by Russian Forces last week and Putin installed a Puppet government. So How can you even big to have a fair referendum

A puppet government headed by a mafioso whose party got 4% of the vote in the last elections.

 

[Boudica]

I meant more in the sense if their doors are being marked with X's and if Crimea goes to Russia. Obviously Crimea where they've lived for many, many years is where they'd want to remain, or remain with Ukraine. But in the off chance they can't, maybe a place that shares many ethnic, religious, language and cultural ties would be appealing.

I wonder how many Tatars would go to Crimea if it came to Russia? A region that once belonged to them, much closer to other Turkic states etc.

Not all the Tatars are from Crimea though. The Tartar people lived all over the black sea region, not just exclusively within the Crimean Peninsula.

 

[captainnapalm]

So you're doubling down on your nonsense instead of admitting you were mistaken. Do you need the thread to sift through years of browser histories to dig up the particular articles that came out at the time or what?

Let's assume you're right, and the media highlighted the dangers of the coups to an equal degree as they were touting it as some victory for freedom and democracy - and in fact did so from the very start.

What about the politicians? With all the intelligence at their disposal, how is it that they were so enthusiastically for the Arab Spring, when as we now know, as as many knew at the time it was happening, it was mostly carried out by fundamentalists and, frequently, terrorists. A fact, which has quite obviously led to increased chaos and instability in these countries. Did this just pass them by as they openly encouraged the overthrow of governments?

And do you not see a parallel with the rubberstamping of this latest coup, despite all the violence, the question marks over its legitimacy and the questionable elements in the new regime?

In a treacherous global climate like this, I don't blame Russia one bit for not recognising the current leaders of Ukraine as legitimate.

 

[Madness]

I don't believe there's a law in Ukraine that allows Crimea to do this kind of referendum.

Very few countries have laws that allow for secession based on what a majority in an area decide. I think the declaration of independence by Kosovo was challenged by Serbia but was ultimately denied by the International Court of Justice on whether or not it was legal.

A big problem for Russia is, it's an outside actor to Crimea. Had none of this Euromaidan protests happened, no Russian invasion, and one day, the local government of Crimea asked for a referendum and the majority decided they wanted to leave Ukraine, it would be very hard for countries not to recognize it, especially after what happened in the former Yugoslavia or the breakup of the Soviet Union.

But now, Russia has tainted any notion of impartiality and fairness. Additionally, unlike Kosovo, people in the Ukraine were not fighting them, committing ethnic cleansing, and Crimea was largely autonomous already. This situation in Crimea is probably more similar to that of Tibet and Hawaii, but even then, those were not necessarily a part of another country and we're invaded/annexed. This is a straight up land grab by a powerful state against a weaker one.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I don't believe there's a law in Ukraine that allows Crimea to do this kind of referendum.

Is there a law that allows you to kick a PM out through demonstration? The people's will is the people's will.

BTW, I'm not condemning what happened. Just saying that if Crimea doesn't want to be part of Ukraine, and it's already autonomous, then let it go.

 

[Ether_Snake]

The only way there could be a referendum on the subject is to have an international presence (UN ideally) for MONTHS before a referendum takes place, if not a year before. It's the only way to make sure that the referendum that ultimately takes place would be fair. But even then, after what has just happened and is happening, it will be more difficult than ever to not see both sides fight each other. In the end what we see is that the region has been thrown into a mess needlessly. If anyone was concerned about the treatment of minorities under the new government, it should have been brought up at the UN.

But we all know this is not about protecting civilians.

edit: People can choose to hold a referendum, Crimeans can too. The issue is that the situation has been purposely exacerbated to create a rift which will make things far more difficult going forward than they legitimately had to be.

 

[pigeon interrupted]

Imagine if somebody with a Russian flag was treated this way... It's really sad state of affairs... Kinda proves that Putin's excuse is BS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYg1xx-yPSU&list=PLPnX89fQLdskWad1VxX92zjlYST8u6veL

Your flag, your national pride, your religion. All vulnerabilities on a massive scale. I am not denigrating, but damn. Don't rise to it. See through the red mist, don't turn into a mob. Do you not see how easy it is?

 

[Dead Man]

Is there a law that allows you to kick a PM out through demonstration? The people's will is the people's will.

BTW, I'm not condemning what happened. Just saying that if Crimea doesn't want to be part of Ukraine, and it's already autonomous, then let it go.

Cool, the US is part of Britain again! WOO!

And that is an awfully big if, given the numbers from last year. Additionally, if every region that wanted to secede could do so based only on it's own basis, half the countries in the world would disintegrate. Seceding legally often takes the consent of the whole country for a reason.

 

[antonz]

The Official Referendum Ballot is out to see.

The 2 offficial options are.

1. Join Russia immediately

2. Declare Independence from Ukraine. which would just mean join Russia later
It lacks a No or other option. Its either Yes or Yes.

Surely that isn't rigged

 

[Dead Man]

The Official Referendum Ballot is out to see.

The 2 offficial options are.

1. Join Russia immediately

2. Declare Independence from Ukraine. which would just mean join Russia later
There is No Yes or No or other Option. Its either Yes or Yes.

Jesus, even more ridiculous than expected. Link?

 

[Resident_UA]

Your flag, your national pride, your religion. All vulnerabilities on a massive scale. I am not denigrating, but damn. Don't rise to it. See through the red mist, don't turn into a mob. Do you not see how easy it is?

I can live with it... What bothers me is the irony of all of this. Ukrainians are the ones who get called fascist. But there were no acts like this is Kiev against people simply because of their Nationality.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Cool, the US is part of Britain again! WOO!

And that is an awfully big if, given the numbers from last year. Additionally, if every region that wanted to secede could do so based only on it's own basis, half the countries in the world would disintegrate. Seceding legally often takes the consent of the whole country for a reason.

It historically doesn't. It's just that countries that aren't dictatorships will usually not try to send the army to prevent that from happening, nor should foreign armies be sent to favor cessation.

 

[antonz]

Jesus, even more ridiculous than expected. Link?

here's the ballot though not in english http://www.rada.crimea.ua/textdoc/ru/6/act/1702pr.pdf

article on it.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/two-choices-in-crimean-referendum-yes-and-yes-338745.html

 

[Dead Man]

It historically doesn't. It's just that countries that aren't dictatorships will usually not try to send the army to prevent that from happening, nor should foreign armies be sent to favor cessation.

My history lessons tell me otherwise. Can you tell me the names of places that have seceded without the consent of the territory they were part of and did so peacefully and were widely recognised internationally?

Break away states tend not to be recognised.

here's the ballot though not in english http://www.rada.crimea.ua/textdoc/ru/6/act/1702pr.pdf

article on it.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/two-choices-in-crimean-referendum-yes-and-yes-338745.html

Thanks.

 

[kingkitty]

It historically doesn't. It's just that countries that aren't dictatorships will usually not try to send the army to prevent that from happening, nor should foreign armies be sent to favor cessation.

The American Civil War yo!

The Official Referendum Ballot is out to see.

The 2 offficial options are.

1. Join Russia immediately

2. Declare Independence from Ukraine. which would just mean join Russia later
It lacks a No or other option. Its either Yes or Yes.

Surely that isn't rigged

Ridiculous.

Is there a law that allows you to kick a PM out through demonstration? The people's will is the people's will.

BTW, I'm not condemning what happened. Just saying that if Crimea doesn't want to be part of Ukraine, and it's already autonomous, then let it go.

Good point, but the guy didn't have to run away with his money to Russia. I don't think protesters were dragging him away.

Also, if I was Ukraine I wouldn't stand for what Russia is doing. Russia just walked in with a bunch of soldiers, lied about walking in, then tried to say people were running away in fear from Ukraine, and then got Crimea to pass a referendum that doesn't give any real choice!

 

[antonz]

Latest Vice video on Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGSrcYLsOMI

 

[CrunchyB]

The Official Referendum Ballot is out to see.

The 2 offficial options are.

1. Join Russia immediately

2. Declare Independence from Ukraine. which would just mean join Russia later
It lacks a No or other option. Its either Yes or Yes.

Surely that isn't rigged

Soviet democracy. Join us now, or later!

This shit would be funny if it wasn't incredibly tragic.

 

[Sibylus]

Let's assume you're right, and the media highlighted the dangers of the coups to an equal degree as they were touting it as some victory for freedom and democracy - and in fact did so from the very start.

What about the politicians? With all the intelligence at their disposal, how is it that they were so enthusiastically for the Arab Spring, when as we now know, as as many knew at the time it was happening, it was mostly carried out by fundamentalists and, frequently, terrorists. A fact, which has quite obviously led to increased chaos and instability in these countries. Did this just pass them by as they openly encouraged the overthrow of governments?

And do you not see a parallel with the rubberstamping of this latest coup, despite all the violence, the question marks over its legitimacy and the questionable elements in the new regime?

In a treacherous global climate like this, I don't blame Russia one bit for not recognising the current leaders of Ukraine as legitimate.

Which politicians and which rubber stamps? Talk specifics, because I haven't seen this all-encompassing wave of western political leaders openly calling for revolution in the middle east or elsewhere, and ignoring outright the actions of extremists. The Obama administration in particular has tended to take a wait and see approach on the Arab Spring revolutions, and not encouraging overthrow like you say, but rather the voluntary relinquishment of office after tensions were already at full boil and violence was rampant. On top of that, they've demonstrated keen awareness of extremist elements, look no further than their reticence to get involved with rebel factions in Syria. You want open calls for overthrow and blindness toward extremism, take your beef to John McCain. Don't take it up against the west as this monolithic monster, to be slain with unrestrained hyperbolic diarrhea.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Cool, the US is part of Britain again! WOO!

And that is an awfully big if, given the numbers from last year. Additionally, if every region that wanted to secede could do so based only on it's own basis, half the countries in the world would disintegrate. Seceding legally often takes the consent of the whole country for a reason.

What the fuck are you talking about? Let the US be part of Britain again?

And if you're so sure that Crimea wouldn't vote to leave, then let it happen.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

And if you're so sure that Crimea wouldn't vote to leave, then let it happen.

Do you actually think we're going to get fair elections without international observers? Like Russia is ok with causing a major international incident and invading another country, but they wouldn't stoop so low as electoral fraud?

 

[Dead Man]

What the fuck are you talking about? Let the US be part of Britain again?

And if you're so sure that Crimea wouldn't vote to leave, then let it happen.

You seem to have problems following people's posts, that's twice now you haven't followed rather simple posts.

You have been posting against the legitimacy of removing corrupt leaders through demonstrations. So by extension the US government is not valid. Hyperbole, of course, but not very hard to follow I thought, and no more ridiculous than your posts.

And the reason for not want a vote right now is obvious, and summed up in antonz' posts. Read them and see if you can find the problem.

 

[pigeon interrupted]

I can live with it... What bothers me is the irony of all of this. Ukrainians are the ones who get called fascist. But there were no acts like this is Kiev against people simply because of their Nationality.

The red mist. Once it takes hold, that's it. It ends when it wants. Western secularism maybe, exposure to many other religions, colours. Exposure is how the brain works at least, if that exposure is combined with a negative stimuli then the association is made and if it is broadcast...

Then you have the faithful going against every myriad value by becoming a lynch mob.
That's why faith should be personal, because it is. Everybody has a different set of values or places greater importance, even within the one denomination.

That's why there should be no sacred iconography, because that piece of stone or wood becomes filled with a power that isn't there--or if it is, it shouldn't be. Power is where you believe it to be--you can take it back for yourself from words and wood instead of being played like a fiddle. It doesn't make you less faithful, it makes you moreso.

 

[SoulPlaya]

You seem to have problems following people's posts, that's twice now you haven't followed rather simple posts.

You have been posting against the legitimacy of removing corrupt leaders through demonstrations. So by extension the US government is not valid. Hyperbole, of course, but not very hard to follow I thought, and no more ridiculous than your posts.

And the reason for not want a vote right now is obvious, and summed up in antonz' posts. Read them and see if you can find the problem.

WHAT?!?! I CLEARLY said this.

Is there a law that allows you to kick a PM out through demonstration? The people's will is the people's will.

BTW, I'm not condemning what happened. Just saying that if Crimea doesn't want to be part of Ukraine, and it's already autonomous, then let it go.

And you say I'm the one not following posts?

Is anyone else seeing this?

EDIT: And when did I say that the vote should happen now? It obviously should only happen when it can truly be determined to be free and fair, and that obviously shouldn't be in the CURRENT situation.

 

[SoulPlaya]

Do you actually think we're going to get fair elections without international observers? Like Russia is ok with causing a major international incident and invading another country, but they wouldn't stoop so low as electoral fraud?

Where did I say that the referendum should happen under Russian supervision? Of course there should be international observers to make sure that it's free and fair.

 

[kess]

Cool, the US is part of Britain again! WOO!

And that is an awfully big if, given the numbers from last year. Additionally, if every region that wanted to secede could do so based only on it's own basis, half the countries in the world would disintegrate. Seceding legally often takes the consent of the whole country for a reason.

Minority rights are a linchpin of modern democracy, and a reason why modern politics isn't a zero sum game based on ethnicity and ideology. Ukrainians and Tatars are going to be a sizable minority in an annexed Crimea but I haven't seen any actions from either Russia or the Crimean assembly addressed at accommodating people who are going to be, at least on paper, Russian as well.

 

[Ether_Snake]

My history lessons tell me otherwise. Can you tell me the names of places that have seceded without the consent of the territory they were part of and did so peacefully and were widely recognised internationally?

I didn't say they didn't accept it. Historically cessation has occurred when people called for a referendum, and said referendum was not granted by the country they wanted to split from, it was held by the people themselves (usually a region). The country from which the people seceded simply accept it.

Hence Crimea could hold a referendum if they wanted to. The issue is would it be held in fair conditions or not for the people to be able to vote according to their wishes.

 

[kingkitty]

Well, if those released ballots are legit, it won't matter. Crimea is going to leave Ukraine. There never was a choice to stay.

 

[antonz]

Well, if those released ballots are legit, it won't matter. Crimea is going to leave Ukraine. There never was a choice to stay.

Crimean Government made that clear other day. They said their vote in the Parliament was binding and they didn't even need to hold a referendum but were doing so since the answer was so obvious

 

[Kinyou]

Imagine if somebody with a Russian flag was treated this way... It's really sad state of affairs... Kinda proves that Putin's excuse is BS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYg1xx-yPSU&list=PLPnX89fQLdskWad1VxX92zjlYST8u6veL

Clearly it's the russians that need protection here

 

[Dead Man]

I didn't say they didn't accept it. Historically cessation has occurred when people called for a referendum, and said referendum was not granted by the country they wanted to split from, it was held by the people themselves (usually a region). The country from which the people seceded simply accept it.

Hence Crimea could hold a referendum if they wanted to. The issue is would it be held in fair conditions or not for the people to be able to vote according to their wishes.

Which countries have simply accepted it? That is what I am asking. Without a country wide referendum or national legislation it is very rarely accepted. Which leads to violence. The point I am making is that very rarely are regions able to define their status unilaterally. International recognition and national laws tend to operate against that. Seceding legally often takes the consent of the country as a whole, whether by legislation or referendum.

Minority rights are a linchpin of modern democracy, and a reason why modern politics isn't a zero sum game based on ethnicity and ideology. Ukrainians and Tatars are going to be a sizable minority in an annexed Crimea but I haven't seen any actions from either Russia or the Crimean assembly addressed at accommodating people who are going to be, at least on paper, Russian as well.

They won't be Russian, they will be filthy agitators, and expelled.

WHAT?!?! I CLEARLY said this.


And you say I'm the one not following posts?

Is anyone else seeing this?

EDIT: And when did I say that the vote should happen now? It obviously should only happen when it can truly be determined to be free and fair, and that obviously shouldn't be in the CURRENT situation.

I'm seeing you want to criticise something but then using weasel words to not be held to that criticism.

If taken the way you want, your post is meaningless. It's bad, but it's not bad. :/

 

[kingkitty]

Crimean Government made that clear other day. They said their vote in the Parliament was binding and they didn't even need to hold a referendum but were doing so since the answer was so obvious

Gives the opportunity to wave a piece of paper and say "It was done democratically! The people spoke!"

 

[goomba]

My history lessons tell me otherwise. Can you tell me the names of places that have seceded without the consent of the territory they were part of and did so peacefully and were widely recognised internationally?

Break away states tend not to be recognised.



Thanks.

Kosovo

 

[Dead Man]

Kosovo

Peacefully? Also not unilaterally, the UN was involved.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I'm seeing you want to criticise something but then using weasel words to not be held to that criticism.

If taken the way you want, your post is meaningless. It's bad, but it's not bad. :/

You're the only one right now that's embarrassing himself.

 

[goomba]

Peacefully? Also not unilaterally, the UN was involved.

What do you mean by peacefully if they don't have consent from the territor?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

You're the only one right now that's embarrassing himself.

I know you are but what am I?

 

[CitizenVectron]

Let's assume you're right, and the media highlighted the dangers of the coups to an equal degree as they were touting it as some victory for freedom and democracy - and in fact did so from the very start.

What about the politicians? With all the intelligence at their disposal, how is it that they were so enthusiastically for the Arab Spring, when as we now know, as as many knew at the time it was happening, it was mostly carried out by fundamentalists and, frequently, terrorists. A fact, which has quite obviously led to increased chaos and instability in these countries. Did this just pass them by as they openly encouraged the overthrow of governments?

And do you not see a parallel with the rubberstamping of this latest coup, despite all the violence, the question marks over its legitimacy and the questionable elements in the new regime?

In a treacherous global climate like this, I don't blame Russia one bit for not recognising the current leaders of Ukraine as legitimate.

1. You're moving the goal posts. You started this as an argument about the media coverage, and it has been shown you were incorrect. Politicians will always try to only show the positives of something they support, there is nothing shocking in this. But the western world was shown the mistreatment of Christians in the Arab Spring, and that is the end of that argument. I suggest you drop it as it is very off-topic in this thread.

2. I wouldn't blame Russia for not recognizing the new leaders either. But that is why there is an election planned for May 25th. The person elected then will have full legitimacy as the election will be monitored by international teams, just like the previous 2 Ukrainian presidential elections. Russia should wait until then, like the rest of the world will, to see the new permanent government. Should they have invaded Crimea based solely on not recognizing an interim government? Would it be okay if Mexico invaded Texas if a mob showed up and scared the Texas legislature into impeaching the governor? No, of course not. Nor would it be okay for any other nation state to invade another if there was something wrong in an election with no other violent consequences.

If the new interim government had decided to start attacking Russians in the streets of Crimea then I would sympathize with Russia intervening. But not a single threat has been made against Russians from the interim government, nor has any action been taken with the exception of the attempt to pass a law removing Russian as a recognized language which was vetoed by the interim president.

I hope you read this post and realize that you are on the wrong side of this argument, logically speaking. Russia should not have invaded as there was no violence or threat of violence in Crimea, and there was an election planned already for a new, official government. Instead, Russia invaded for their own strategic interests (and nothing else), and will run a sham referendum with no international observation, and will tell the world to accept it. I will wager now that if a pro-western candidate wins the May 25th presidential election Russia will refuse to recognize them, as well, even though the election will be monitored. That[/i] is what will be hypocritical.

 

[SoulPlaya]

I know you are but what am I?

It's just amazing the assumptions people will make about you, even when you try to be clear about it. I've lived under a dictatorship. My family has suffered under one. To tell me how I feel about people kicking out a corrupt leader is just insulting, you know?