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Ukrainian Conflict - Donetsk Boogaloo

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Cold war restart. Sad times.

Has it ever left though ? Cold War, when you strip it of the ideology, was just another Great Powers contest, only they were unable to settle the matters between them because of nukes and geographical isolation.

What is the EU supposed to do about this? It's an economic union first and foremost, not a military or foreign affairs union. That isn't and was never what the EU is about, and the council has no say in those matters at all.

+1

It would take a fiscal, military and foreign affairs union for UE to able to do anything in those situations. UE as it is now is a glorified consultation board with no real power behind it,
 
Let Crimea go? I know far too little about this to just say "Eh, just give Crimea to Russia, who cares" but it seems inevitable anyway. The population of Crimea are more Russia than Ukraine as far as I know (which , like I said, doesn't mean much)

That's a difficult situation. Eastern Ukraine is where most of the heavy industry is, so the Western half wouldn't want to use it. Sadly, Eastern Ukraine laborers stand to lose the most with any EU/IMF deals that come to fruition.
 
I can't really imagine any realistic situation right now that would end well for everybody...
The best realistic option I see is to let Russia rent part of the Crimea as an enclave for 100 years or something, with a transit route for unhindered access, and let the Crimean Russians move to Russia or that enclave.
 
The best realistic option I see is to let Russia rent part of the Crimea as an enclave for 100 years or something, with a transit route for unhindered access, and let the Crimean Russians move to Russia or that enclave.

Sure, but why would Russia agree to the when they can just swallow the whole region?
 
How apt:

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Crazy stuff...

I wonder what would be the US reaction had we not invaded 2 countries ourselves. These dumb wars continue to haunt us in more ways than one.
 
What is the EU supposed to do about this? It's an economic union first and foremost, not a military or foreign affairs union. That isn't and was never what the EU is about, and the council has no say in those matters at all.
I don't know if it still true but in the past to be a member of the EU you had to join the NATO. Any military decision if it happens would be through the NATO but the EU could still impose economic sanctions.

In the end I doubt anybody want to risk anything helping Ukraine unless a genocide happens.
 
Crazy stuff...

I wonder what would be the US reaction had we not invaded 2 countries ourselves. These dumb wars continue to haunt us in more ways than one.

Yep, gave up all moral authority (such as it was) and soft power to use a big stick to poke other countries.

Edit: Probably doesn't make that much difference for this particular situation, but still, I am saddened by what the US could have been doing for the last 13 years,
 
Of course the EU isn't going to do anything, they rely on the gas that gets transported from Russia through Ukraine.

Hope the Ukrainians give the Russians a good show before they lose Crimea and their eastern and coastal areas.
 
Crazy stuff...

I wonder what would be the US reaction had we not invaded 2 countries ourselves. These dumb wars continue to haunt us in more ways than one.

While I don't condone the two wars (especially the Iraq one), this is a different situation. The goal of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars was never about changing borders of those two nations. This is more similar to Iraq gobbling Kuwait. I think the official US reaction is the same in any case -- they know they have to tread very, very carefully.
 
That's a difficult situation. Eastern Ukraine is where most of the heavy industry is, so the Western half wouldn't want to use it. Sadly, Eastern Ukraine laborers stand to lose the most with any EU/IMF deals that come to fruition.
Crimea isn't the eastern half though, there is very little heavy industry located there.

I don't know if it still true but in the past to be a member of the EU you had to join the NATO. Any military decision if it happens would be through the NATO but the EU could still impose economic sanctions.
If it ever was true it hasn't been for a while since several EU members are not members of NATO.
 
Why on earth are the Russians asking Putin to withdraw their ambassadors from the US? The US has done fuck all in all of this. From what said they said that Obama had insulted Russia. In what way has he insulted Russia? The EU and the US have said very little in all of this.
Also that vote in the Russian senate shows how corrupt the whole thing is.
 
Has it ever left though ? Cold War, when you strip it of the ideology, was just another Great Powers contest, only they were unable to settle the matters between them because of nukes and geographical isolation.

I think one of the main differences is that you can't hide crimes so good anymore. Could help actually.
 
http://www.economist.com/blogs/easternapproaches/2014/03/russia-and-ukraine

RUSSIA and Ukraine have edged closer to a military confrontation after Vladimir Putin, Russia’s president, asked the upper house of the Russian parliament to approve the deployment of the country's armed forces in Ukraine. The request was made “in connection with the extraordinary situation developing in Ukraine and the danger to the lives of the citizens of Russian Federation and our compatriots and military personnel located within the territory”.

An official in Ukraine’s armed forces says that after several days without the use of force, military units across Ukraine have been put on heightened alert and told to open fire if they come under attack. A week ago Russian and Ukrainian military commanders informally agreed among themselves to avoid confrontation and provocations. But in the past two days several Ukrainian military units have come under attack from unidentified armed men, who are widely believed to be Russian forces. A Ukrainian military airport in Kirovsky was attacked on February 28th by some 350 men in camouflage, who smashed up navigation systems, rendering the airport unusable. Feodosiya, Ukraine’s naval base in the Black Sea, was approached by Zubr, Russian-made air-cushioned hovercraft, which retreated after the Ukrainian navy threatened resistance...

...It is understood that Russia has sent its elite units to Crimea, and that it now has between 6,000 and 7,000 men on the peninsula in addition to those already stationed in Russian bases there. The movement of troops started on February 23rd, the day of the closing ceremony of the Sochi Olympics. “This feels like 22nd June 1941,” the Ukrainian official said, referring to the day when Nazi Germany attacked the Soviet Union.

Ukraine's armed forces are much less well-equipped than the Russian army. The total number of Ukrainian military personnel in Crimea is estimated at about 14,000. But only a few thousands of those troops are ready for combat. The forces have lacked a clear chain of command since the overthrow of Viktor Yanukovych, who on February 28th gave a press conference in Russia in which he insisted that he was still Ukraine's president. Ukraine's new defence minister was appointed only a couple of days ago. Russia has chosen Ukraine's moment of greatest weakness to move into Crimea.
 
Putting armed forces on Crimea also fuels separatists in other pro-Russian regions in Ukraine.
 
I remember my dad telling me that the Polish president warned Ukraine that Russia was planing on expanding, shortly before his plane went down a few years back. Probably just conspiracy from a random Polish website but if not, there ain't not time like the present to start making those moves.

I'm sure a lot of people saw this coming and we're just waiting for the Olympics to end.
 
Lithuanian Minister of Foreign Affairs :

Yeah, no surprise they are feeling vulnerable.

Edit: Assuming they mean Article 4 of the NATO agreement, that means they are calling a meeting as a member nations sovereignty is threatened.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm
Article 4

The Parties will consult together whenever, in the opinion of any of them, the territorial integrity, political independence or security of any of the Parties is threatened.
 
This cannot be happening... Go to hell, Russia, why arent you just leave us alone?

God please help us, noone else will, it seems. Budapest 1994 agreement worth nothing now, and with it goes away the balance. Good luck to convice
anyone now to stop development of nuclear weapons, any garantees have zero long term value now.
 
Why on earth are the Russians asking Putin to withdraw their ambassadors from the US? The US has done fuck all in all of this. From what said they said that Obama had insulted Russia. In what way has he insulted Russia? The EU and the US have said very little in all of this.
Also that vote in the Russian senate shows how corrupt the whole thing is.

http://qz.com/174674/the-kremlin-this-leaked-tape-shows-the-us-is-backing-ukraines-opposition/

tl;dr version: Russia thinks the US played a large role in ousting Yanukovych.
 
Really is a shame that Ukraine gave up its nukes. Good luck convincing any other nation to do this now. At the very least (since giving Ukraine its nukes back isn't a good option) the US / NATO could deploy anti-missile batteries all over (remaining) Ukraine should this go down the way it is looking.
 
Sure, but why would Russia agree to the when they can just swallow the whole region?
Because contrary to what some people in this thread seem to believe, Russia can't really afford to fuck with the EU in general and Germany in particular. Not for military, but for economic reasons. Sure, we depend on them, but they also depend on us.
 
This cannot be happening... Go to hell, Russia, why arent you just leave us alone?

God please help us, noone else will, it seems. Budapest 1994 agreement worth nothing now, and with it goes away the balance. Good luck to convice
anyone now to stop development of nuclear weapons, any garantees have zero long term value now.

You are Ukrainian? Good luck friend, all the best.

Yeah. NATO meeting on Monday. EU meeting on Monday too.

Monday? Bloody hell, get off your arses.

The Baltic states do have a significant amount of ethnic Russians as well, so Russia could even use the same excuse of "protecting Russians" that they are so fond of.

And those naval ports they love so much too,
 
Obama's Syrian Red Line bluff has completely deflated US credibility on big dick measurements.

Putin will take advantage of Obama's hesitance and try to get away with as much as he can

Yeah. This is getting scary. It's not like anyone predicted this either...oh wait...

"After the Russian army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama's reaction was one of indecision and moral equivalence – the kind of response that would only encourage Russia's Putin to invade Ukraine next."
--Sarah Palin, October 21, 2008.
 
Yeah. This is getting scary. It's not like anyone predicted this either...oh wait...

"After the Russian army invaded the nation of Georgia, Senator Obama's reaction was one of indecision and moral equivalence – the kind of response that would only encourage Russia's Putin to invade Ukraine next."
--Sarah Palin, October 21, 2008.

Piss off with that rubbish in here. Half the world predicted it.
 
They know what they want.

If I remember correctly, the upper house consists of representatives from each region or republic of Russia, selected by the governor of that region.

Regional governors are directly appointed by the President, and have been since Beslan. So the chance of the Federation Council being anti-President is more or less non-existant.
 
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