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Ukrainian Conflict - Donetsk Boogaloo
- Thread starter Salvadora
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Would you rather have a nuclear war.
Nikodemos
Member
His endgame is the successful Balkanisation of Ukraine. A fragmented Ukraine with 'autonomous' (de facto Russian-controlled) regions becoms completely powerless. It can no longer adhere to various international treaties or pacts (like the one which started the whole things).
maquiladora
Member
They won't have the benefit of the doubt, but the pro-Russian protests, raising of flags and calls for "protection" in eastern cities yesterday felt to me like laying the groundwork for troops to roll across the border in those areas. I don't think Putin sees that region as "Ukraine proper". Whether the units there would stand down or fight, or be the first to open fire if the Russians just calmly drive across the border remains to be seen I think.
Ukraine is not part of NATO. NATO cannot just interfere in something like this. It's more complicated than that.
Klendathu Club Owner
Member
But Russia also depends on the EU countries to buy the gas.
Gas is only one thing in this puzzle. A lot of companies have large plants in Russia - i know that our two huge pharmaceutical companies have 90% of their production capacity based in Russia. You can imagine what any sanctions could bring to them...
Ukraine PM : Russia has declared war
I expected something outrageous after the Olympic games but I think the whole international community is in shock at the moment. I wonder what China thinks, shouldn't they believe in the doctrine of absolute sovereignty of nation states?
If we are talking about repercussions, I'd prefer if the west started freezing assets from Putin's little oligarch minions by any legal means necessary.
I expected something outrageous after the Olympic games but I think the whole international community is in shock at the moment. I wonder what China thinks, shouldn't they believe in the doctrine of absolute sovereignty of nation states?
If we are talking about repercussions, I'd prefer if the west started freezing assets from Putin's little oligarch minions by any legal means necessary.
Right, but it seems to me that having gas to generate electricity, heat homes, etc., is more economically significant than having the income from selling it. Russia can rack up debt more easily than Europe can heat and light their homes without gas.
maquiladora
Member
Ukraine is not a NATO member.
Strictly speaking, NATO was created to defend member nations from aggressors, Ukraine is not a member state. Preventing that is probably one of the aims of Russia here.
Edit: Too slow
Nicktendo86
Member
What good would it do Russia if they stopped selling their only export though?
Edit: I don't doubt they would do it though, fucking nuts.
Russia's entire economy depends on their natural resources, it would be more painful for them to not be able to sell their gas to the EU than it would be for the EU to not be able to buy it. Russia is probably far more willing to take the pain than the EU is though, especially over a non-member country like Ukraine.
I have some Russian friends who said Krim belongs to Russians. So that maded me interested. I searched to this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Crimea#Demographic_history
and it maked me realise that Ukranians did not lived or only 10% of population was maked up of Ukranians in Krim. Only since after WW2 they make a quarter of population. It also belonged to Russia for centuries untill they gave it to Ukraine as in a friendship deal. Does this information changes anyonce mind? (assuming you did not know that information) Personally i say that just let the Ukranians have that land because no one wants a war. But yes i can understand why Russians say it belongs to them.
and it maked me realise that Ukranians did not lived or only 10% of population was maked up of Ukranians in Krim. Only since after WW2 they make a quarter of population. It also belonged to Russia for centuries untill they gave it to Ukraine as in a friendship deal. Does this information changes anyonce mind? (assuming you did not know that information) Personally i say that just let the Ukranians have that land because no one wants a war. But yes i can understand why Russians say it belongs to them.
Trans-atlantic gas pipe!
This.
Why oh why are EU so dependent on gas from Russia? Build nuclear reactors and whatnot.
jakonovski
Member
I appreciate that being the king of the rubble pile may give Putin an erection, but balkanization doesn't actually benefit anyone. Not Ukraine, not Russia, not Europe, not the US. Maybe it'll be good for China, they can get more powerful in peace, while their rival shits where he eats.
Forsete
Member
Not eco friendly though! Nuclear reactors can kill thousands.
So its better to be dependent on gas and german coal power, while we slowly transition to expensive wind power.
In seriousness, yes I find that hyper stupid. Its time to invest in new safer nuclear tech.
Escape Goat
Member
I suspect he wants a civil war because he will gain the Pro-Russia territories (the ones with industry). Whether there is a war or an international resolution where the country is split, he wins.
nephilimdj
Member
jakonovski
Member
Which is also nuts in my book, because it would be way more constructive for Russia to just invest in Ukraine or build the damn industry yourself. The modern world economy doesn't reward instability.
Make bigger deals with Australia. We'll take all your money.
NATO statement time. http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/events_67375.htm
EDIT: What a piss weak response. Expected as much, though.
EDIT: What a piss weak response. Expected as much, though.
ThoseDeafMutes
Member
Australia is capable of stepping up output by allowing new mines to be open, we got the world's largest reserves. Canada is at #2, I believe.
Very brief and just as predicted, a sloppy tuna slap to the wrist for Russia.
It's obvious that NATO are scared shitless of drawing their ire.
That's it?!!!
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
That was helpfull.
"Yeah, we are talking about something. Stop being mean Russia. Thanks, bye"
Forsete
Member
Sweden has large deposits though, but they arent being mines at the moment.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/ENF-Swedish_resource_worlds_second_largest-2308128.html
nephilimdj
Member
But would EU really sanction Russia, just so it can buy everything from Chinese owned Mines in Canada and Australia?
USA wouldn't be to happy.
What makes you think the Chinese own Australian mines?
EU isn't so dependant on Russian gas that it would halt the economy.
Even Ukraine isn't that dependant on it anymore actually. They need 40% less gas from Russia today than just 5 years ago.
Nikodemos
Member
Well, what are they supposed to say? Hold a spiritism session and channel "We begin bombing in five minutes" Reagan's ghost? Putin's desperate, and desperate dictators do weird and unfortunate/unpleasant things. Which is why they're so cautious.
And Ukrainian soldiers accepting to lay down arms willingly really messes with their plans to pull another Georgia.
The NATO statement was to show, what the meeting was about and why they held it (As if there was any doubt) They couldn't really say anything else, as no action had, as of yet, been decided on. Better to make very vague statements than empty threats that might escalate things further. I think that whatever Statement that NATO will have after the meetings will have more "meat" on it. At least I hope it does.
A fuel embargo? That'll end well..
I wonder if this is linked to the decision to reject the EU and go for closer ties to Russia. When that backfired so dramatically and Putin lost his man in Kiev, maybe he figured he could achieve the same thing militarily? Take advantage while things are chaotic
And the olympics are only half over, we still have the Paralympics to come
fizzelopeguss
Banned
maquiladora
Member
Yes.
True, but a few more firmer words could have been used. It's just a mess all round, really. I suppose we'll get the stronger talk after the meeting, after they've decided what's to be done.
Before anyone says anything else, most of Ukraine's lands were given by monarchs and totalitarian regimes, Russian people (especially ones living in Crimea) had no say in it. Not to say that Russia is going about it the right way right now.
maquiladora
Member
Ukrainian army base at Perevalnoye in Crimea has been surrounded by Russian troops. Ukrainian troops have driven an APC to the gates and are refusing to surrender.
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