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Ukrainian Conflict - Donetsk Boogaloo

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The Horror the horror said:
Correct, and that's been confirmed by quite a few experts. Most of whom state that Russia possesses a moderate military, way behind the likes of America, Great Britain, and Germany; some even say China. The common belief is that Russia is a big bully, one who'll back off once you bloody its nose. That's been the case with Stalin, if a remember correctly -- he was good at pushing around the little countries but never came through any of his threats that would draw the immediate and significant response from allies.
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This is why america and russia have this huge military force going on at this date and spend huge amounts of cash maintaining it. This is why France also is ramping up there militairy and pushing tech forwards. Because this is what fights war's. Not atomic bombs.

I don't know why Obama takes so much crap from Europe. Because every time i see a conflict its all about "obama please help us, because we don't want to spend a peny on military as we have no issue with anybody!". But then hell breaks lose and America needs to safe us again, because europe is so god dam lazy with pushing there own military forwards.

Atm europe is weak and russia knows it. US isn't going to do shit and therefore he can do whatever the fuck he want's.
 
Liha said:
Around 80- 90% in eastern Ukraine have voted for Yanukovych and russia is an important partner and friend. There is also a historical aspect (Kievan Rus).
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And your point being is what? That the EU should not make deals with Ukraine or allow it to join the EU or something because Eastern Ukraine votes strongly towards one Ukrainian candidate and it has historical ties to Russia?

Basically, you are saying that Ukraine is Russia's bitch and has to do what its told and EU should be mindful of that?

You have an odd concept of the rights of sovereign nations.
 
mnz said:
Most of these countries want to be part of NATO and/or the EU. Being a member has many upsides.
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Very true but at the cost of political instability? Ukraine is going to get nadda from the EU, this appears to just be continued and slow expansion of the Western leaning countries since the cold war ended.

The Horror the horror said:
What if the leaders of those easter bloc countries and their people choose to join the EU? Should they be denied because Russia wouldn't like that?
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I am a cynic and believer in realpolitik so my answer to this would be yes.

I am sorry but if you thought you were gradually being encircled by your historical enemies would you stand for it? No serious nation would. The USA blatantly meddles in other countries affairs if Canada were to become Communist overnight, you think that would last very long?

Panama, Nicaragua, Cuba, Britain vis a vis the Suez canal - the list goes on, hell in a very recent example who provides a shit load of funding to the "democratically elected" Egyptian military (yes a lot of funds coming from Saudi but a lot of American dollars there too).

No country which took itself seriously would allow it, you want to extend western influence all the way to my doorstep and remove a key submarine base? Noooooo.gif

I urge everyone in this thread to listen to that link to The Nation podcast another poster linked in this thread really puts it all in perspective.

If you dont want to get bitten stop kicking rattlesnakes.
 
Razgriz-Specter said:
Eh, against a country like Iraq tanks were useful. in an all out war between countries like the US and Russia it will be much less so.
Not only woud you have 1 side with many A-10s and Apache each made for the destruction of multiple tanks at a time, you'd even have shit like the thousands of Predator drones able to take out tanks.
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Iraq was using old shit and downgraded T-72M tanks which were already downgraded from the original T-72 firing training rounds. No reactive armor, no advanced optics, no composite armor and training rounds can't penitrate armor. The Russian armed forces these days are tailored toward defense not offense with some cold war relics like the insane amount of fire arms and tanks. Russia on the assault would very vunerable but is quite effective fighting on domestic soil. Anti air defense is problably the most lethal in the world with no chance of A-10s, Apaches, Predator drones and even stealth equiped aircraft being able to penitrate it's airspace without high casualties. Google S300, S400 and S500 anti air to see what I'm talking about. Those are also of the reasons we haven't taken care of Syria yet.
 
CHEEZMO™;102888059 said:
As someone who is as far left as you can get, I hate this shit. You get people who identify as leftist defending fascist strongmen because they make anti-US/West noises every so often. So fucking dumb.
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there is a good left = socio-democratic who want to defend civil liberties

n u got there is the bad left = Chavez types who want everything for nothing who begrudge anything that is the west at the rest risk of putting civil liberties at risk
 
Piecake said:
And your point being is what? That the EU should not make deals with Ukraine or allow it to join the EU or something because Eastern Ukraine votes strongly towards one Ukrainian candidate and it has historical ties to Russia?

Basically, you are saying that Ukraine is Russia's bitch and has to do what its told and EU should be mindful of that?

You have an odd concept of the rights of sovereign nations.
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The Ukraine will not join the EU in the next 15 - 20 years, it was just an agreement. I have just said, Ukraine must be a bridge between the EU and Russia and no wall against russia.
 
Liha said:
The Ukraine will not join the EU in the next 15 - 20 years, it was just an agreement. I have just said, Ukraine must be a bridge between the EU and Russia and no wall against russia.
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So you basically want to ignore a Nation's sovereign rights to make its own decisions based on its own perceived best interests. Gotcha
 
Piecake said:
So you basically want to ignore a Nation's sovereign rights to make its own decisions based on its own perceived best interests. Gotcha
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I think you ignore facts. Yanukovych was always pro russia and 80 - 90 % voted for him. You ignore people in ukraine who are pro russia and say that all people in ukraine are pro-eu.
 
I don't know why but it feels like a lot (not everyone) of people on the internet are kind of looking forward to WW3. They might not admit it but everything they say has a slight give to it, almost like a faint excitement.

It's strange, everyone is already discussing strategies different countries could be taking, discussing troop counts, tank counts, (no loss of life mind you, at least not that I have seen), who would be involved, etc.

Shouldn't we be discussing how it could not happen rather than how it could, I mean,
Is conventional war in a Nuclear World even possible?

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, fool me thrice, the world becomes a fireball of death, regret, and radiation.

Just a thought, don't bash me to tears.
 
78w53.jpg
 
teh_rhn said:
I don't know why but it feels like a lot (not everyone) of people on the internet are kind of looking forward to WW3. They might not admit it but everything they say has a slight give to it, almost like a faint excitement.

It's strange, everyone is already discussing strategies different countries could be taking, discussing troop counts, tank counts, (no loss of life mind you, at least not that I have seen), who would be involved, etc.

Shouldn't we be discussing how it could not happen rather than how it could, I mean,
Is conventional war in a Nuclear World even possible?

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, fool me thrice, the world becomes a fireball of death, regret, and radiation.
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Just no. People love to speculate about this shit but nobody really wants shit to hit the fan. Also it's hard to see how WW3 would come to be. What other military alliances are there but NATO? Unlike you know what went down in WW1 and 2. Russia alone isn't what they used to be. Sure any clash with them is going to be a bloody one but it won't happen because it makes no sense to anybody.
 
Liha said:
I think you ignore facts. Yanukovych was always pro russia and 80 - 90 % voted for him.
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I didnt realize that Eastern Ukraine was its own Sovereign nation. And Ukraine's elected parliament booted Yanukovych out. Oh, and btw, the Prime Minister of Ukraine is appointed by the president with the approval of parliament. He is not elected by popular vote

Konka said:
So what. Large portions of the US didn't vote for Obama, that doesn't mean they get to break off from the country.
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Shit, we better protect the South from invasion
 
Konka said:
So what. Large portions of the US didn't vote for Obama, that doesn't mean they get to break off from the country.
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Seriously. Do southern counties in the US get to break away to Mexico because their is a higher number of Hispanics ? Can the United States annex cancun because have a lot of tourists that we need to "protect"?

I don't know how people are justifying any of Russia's actions.
 
Piecake said:
I didnt realize that Eastern Ukraine was its own Sovereign nation. And Ukraine's elected parliament booted Yanukovych out. Oh, and btw, the Prime Minister of Ukraine is appointed by the president with the approval of parliament. He is not elected by popular vote
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He was booted out because he was a corrupt sob who got caught when they found out he embezzled millions of euros. Not because he was pro-Russia and agreed everything what Russia said.
 
Soyongdori said:
He was booted out because he was a corrupt sob who got caught when they found out he embezzled millions of euros. Not because he was pro-Russia and agreed everything what Russia said.
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Yes, but his deal with Russia was tainted by his corruption since it was basically a pile of cash to keep his government afloat, which was in trouble thanks to him and his cronies bleeding the country dry
 
Liha said:
Around 80- 90% in eastern Ukraine have voted for Yanukovych and russia is an important partner and friend. There is also a historical aspect (Kievan Rus).
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First of all what does Russia have to do with this. Second of all Hitler was also democratically elected. What's your point?
 
Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/02/ukraine-warns-russia-crimea-war-live

A senior US official has said that Russian forces “now have complete operational control of the Crimean Peninsula.”

The Guardian’s Jon Swaine reports that the official estimated that 6,000 Russian forces “with considerable materiel” were in the region and were flying in reinforcements.

The officials told a conference call with reporters that there had also been “occasional ethnic skirmishes in parts of the east” of Ukraine, and that there was particular concern about the north-eastern city of Kharkiv, where “efforts to stir up ethnic Russians” against Kiev had been detected.

“We are concerned as we watch this situation that the Russians have badly miscalculated,” one senior official said. “There is a very fierce and proud tradition in Ukraine of defending their sovereignty and territorial integrity.

“So far Ukraine has showed, and Ukrainians individually have showed, marked restraint ... but the longer this situation goes on, the more delicate it becomes”.

Officials said Kerry would travel to Kiev on Tuesday to meet the interim Ukrainian government and discuss American support.

Plans for a trip to Moscow by the US trade representative and a visit by Russian officials on energy cooperation have both been cancelled.
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Putin, from the start, has been talking about East Ukraine. The Russians aren't mobilizing like this just for Crimea.
 
Piecake said:
So you basically want to ignore a Nation's sovereign rights to make its own decisions based on its own perceived best interests. Gotcha
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I wonder if your regard for a nations sovereign rights extends to nations that are invaded , bombed or have uprisings funded by the US ?
 
Going for the ammo dump is logical progression by Russian Forces. If it escalates and Ukrainian forces push out from their bases in the area they would head for the Ammo storage for obvious reasons.

Take out the storage facilities and you already weaken the local forces alot
 
Piecake said:
Yes, but his deal with Russia was tainted by his corruption since it was basically a pile of cash to keep his government afloat, which was in trouble thanks to him and his cronies bleeding the country dry
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Also, he wouldn't have been removed from power if he hadn't reacted so erratically to the protests. He tried to pass a law making all the protesters terrorists and then tried to forcibly pacify them. The protests had been dying down before he started that shit.
 
antonz said:
Going for the ammo dump is logical progression by Russian Forces. If it escalates and Ukrainian forces push out from their bases in the area they would head for the Ammo storage for obvious reasons.

Take out the storage facilities and you already weaken the local forces alot
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The ukrainian forces are not suicide.
 
goomba said:
I wonder if your regard for a nations sovereign rights extends to nations that are invaded , bombed or have uprisings funded by the US ?
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What does that have to do with the current situation? Scary that people brush off Russia's aggression due to US past actions.
 
goomba said:
I wonder if your regard for a nations sovereign rights extends to nations that are invaded , bombed or have uprisings funded by the US ?
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Yeah your main concern is calling out the US. Good job. Why not recall every fucking war ever and accept people killing each other because it's human nature anyway. Not like we can actually protest against wars without shits remembering us all the time humanity is doomed etc...

Seriously what's your aim? Remembering people we're bad? So what? No one can ask to be better ?
 
goomba said:
I wonder if your regard for a nations sovereign rights extends to nations that are invaded , bombed or have uprisings funded by the US ?
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Where the fuck did this come from? Are you one of these people? That all of the world's problems are caused by the evil American empire and we shouldnt blame anyone else because they are just poor victims of the insidious Western imperialist might?

But to answer your question, yes. Though I think genocide removes that right, and, depending on the circumstances, peacekeeping missions to end a civil war is a reason as well.
 
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