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[phaze]

About pics of military lorries and APCs on trains that some lunatics posted on Twitter. aka that Russia is moving their forces to Poland-Russia border. Russia wouldn't mobilize their forces to the border with Poland, there is no need for that (for all that missed the point - there is no Poland-Russia border anymore)

And that speech from Polish PM doesn't surprise me at all.

The Kaliningrad Oblast is part of Russian Federation and as such Poland and Russia do share a common border.

Apparently it took more than 7 months for the French and British to cross the Maginot Line

? French troops conducted forays into the Saar already in September 1939. During the 1940 campaign there was no large scale movement past the MG line, only delaying forces.

 

[Nivash]

Yeah, that was an stupid statement. I don't know why i was thinking in the NATO-Warsaw Pact scenario. NATO though that in case of a Soviet Invasion the first defend line would be at the wesser river, the second at the rhine river, but the next line of defense wasn't in france but Spain (at Pyrenees mountains), so yeah, back at that time they coudl have reached paris in a short period of time.

Back in those days the Russian border basically started a short distance from Hamburg and the assumption was that continental Europe would get steamrolled with NATO not considering themselves to have a fighting chance until the mid-80s.

So yes, times have changed. Thank God for that.

 

[jufonuk]

so what NATO mentioned, just a general, please keep calm Russia, and stop.

or a we're gonna kick your ass?

 

[cebri.one]

you're wrong is the other way around, europe has more troops and reserves. Also the T90 has no chance against a Leopard thank, in range alone the leopard gun can shoot a russian tank far sooner.

What about the AT capabilities? I though the Refleks gave the T90 an advantage over the Leopard and Abrams.

 

[Tugatrix]

You realize we had carries, planes, trains, cars, tanks, helicopters in WWII right? What is this new technology we have to move people faster now?

They were pretty mobile in WWII, we're not talking Naploeonic Wars here.

US and Japan had carries, planes yeah but they weren't use to move troops and they could only take small numbers, Cars and Trains were in their war infance, helicopters????????????? The mobility wasn't that great now you can move an army in days, then in weeks

Not so much technology more a thing call alliance and a US base on Germany called Ramstein with many troops in there.

 

[Konka]

What about the AT capabilities? I though the Refleks gave the T90 an advantage over the Leopard and Abrams.

Tank warfare is a relic of the previous century.

 

[DrM]

The Kaliningrad Oblast is part of Russian Federation and as such Poland and Russia do share a common border.

Ouch, forgot about that one.

 

[Roland Gunner]

How exactly is it different? You're not demonstrating an argument. You're simply saying it's unacceptable. How so? Why are the rights of ethnic Russians in Ukraine any less important than those of Scots living in the UK?

England hasn't invaded another country since what, the Suez Canal crisis? Russia just did the exact same thing in Georgia six years ago and still has troops stationed in two Georgian provinces. Honestly, if the Crimea wants to split off from the Ukraine thats fine with me but it should be a democratic vote. Not the result of Russia invading the region and threatening anyone who disagrees with them.

 

[Ether_Snake]

England hasn't invaded another country since what, the Suez Canal crisis? Russia just did the exact same thing in Georgia six years ago and still has troops stationed in two Georgian provinces. Honestly, if the Crimea wants to split off from the Ukraine thats fine with me but it should be a democratic vote. Not the result of Russia invading the region and threatening anyone who disagrees with them.

There would never be a democratic vote in Crimea. It's already fully manipulated.

 

[mnz]

"We're coming Poland, we'll be there...sometime."

I'm sure they would've wanted to be ready to beat Germany (and the Soviet Union, since they also attacked) within the 4 weeks it took them to invade Poland. But nobody was. So what are you even saying? They should've had a stronger military than Germany? Well, duh.

 

[ICKE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSUrTUHP9zo

So Poland is definitely taking precautions at the moment. Probably a lot of emotions over there, given the history of the country.

 

[antonz]

What about the AT capabilities? I though the Refleks gave the T90 an advantage over the Leopard and Abrams.

Russia only has 550 T-90. Lots of older Tanks though no doubt. For comparison the US has over 9,000 Abrams

 

[ISOM]

TBH I think it was kind of going down those lines regardless. There's clearly issues in the country due to the mix of cultures and it was inevitable that things were going to come to a head eventually. It's worth listening to that Stephen Cohen interview and how he pretty much predicts the invasion of the Crimea because of Russian military interests in the region.



I talked about the idea of giving the people the right to self determination. And basically said that they're not entitled to it. You still haven't adequately explained why a referendum would be ridiculous. What's more democratic than a vote? For get real world events for the moment. I'm just curious as to why some people are allowed a vote and some people aren't in your view?

You conveniently ignore that russia is exhibiting undue influence in crimera and the surrounding areas. Why should the Ukraine allow democratic votes when there have been obvious outside influences that make the voting less than unbiased?

 

[Kadayi]

England hasn't invaded another country since what, the Suez Canal crisis? Russia just did the exact same thing in Georgia six years ago and still has troops stationed in two Georgian provinces. Honestly, if the Crimea wants to split off from the Ukraine thats fine with me but it should be a democratic vote. Not the result of Russia invading the region and threatening anyone who disagrees with them.

I'm more interested in the philosophical argument as to why if a referendum was on the cards, it would be somehow be unacceptable? Still that's largely another debate.

You conveniently ignore that russia is exhibiting undue influence in crimera and the surrounding areas. Why should the Ukraine allow democratic votes when there have been obvious outside influences that make the voting less than unbiased?

What by having pretty much the bulk of the population there be ethnically Russian? Putin planned that for sure......smh

 

[Sneds]

England hasn't invaded another country since what, the Suez Canal crisis? Russia just did the exact same thing in Georgia six years ago and still has troops stationed in two Georgian provinces. Honestly, if the Crimea wants to split off from the Ukraine thats fine with me but it should be a democratic vote. Not the result of Russia invading the region and threatening anyone who disagrees with them.

Iraq and Afghanistan are the most recent invasions.

 

[H6rdc0re]

There would never be a democratic vote in Crimea. It's already fully manipulated.

I think the Ukraine is corrupt from both ends of the spectrum. My only hope is that men like Vitali Klitschko can turn things around.

 

[antonz]

I'm more interested in the philosophical argument as to why if a referendum was on the cards, it would be somehow be unacceptable? Still that's largely another debate.

A Referendum that would be called by a puppet government installed by Russia while Russia stokes the ethnic flames etc.

I have no issue with a referendum. Right now is not the time and 6 months is not the time though. The Region needs time to chill out and have Russia not directly meddling

 

[jerry1594]

I think the Ukraine is corrupt from both ends of the spectrum. My only hope is that men like Vitali Klitschko can turn things around.

Lol

 

[ISOM]

I'm more interested in the philosophical argument as to why if a referendum was on the cards, it would be somehow be unacceptable? Still that's largely another debate.



What by having pretty much the bulk of the population there be ethnically Russian? Putin planned that for sure......smh

They are ethnically russian but they are not russian citizens. They are ukraine citizens. Russia has no right to be in the Ukraine right now and russia being in the Ukraine right now obviously pushes those regions to be more biased towards separating then they would have been if russia stayed out of the ukraine. That is why a vote should not be allowed. Do you get it yet?

 

[maquiladora]

England hasn't invaded another country since what, the Suez Canal crisis? Russia just did the exact same thing in Georgia six years ago and still has troops stationed in two Georgian provinces. Honestly, if the Crimea wants to split off from the Ukraine thats fine with me but it should be a democratic vote. Not the result of Russia invading the region and threatening anyone who disagrees with them.

A 2011 poll found that 71.3% consider Ukraine as their motherland. The idea that there is some kind of frantic and sudden desire to split with Ukraine among the entire population and rush under the arms of Russia in the face of a non-existant "neo-nazi" threat from Kiev to their lives would be hilarious if this wasn't so serious. Russian troops (the same 'unknown gumen' that took over the airports) stormed the Crimean government building and forced the appointing of a pro-Russian puppet who then 'invited' Russian forces to Crimea for protection from the same non-existant threat. The whole thing is an obvious charade to facilite the annexation of Crimea. The idea that anything remotely democratic will be happening in such an environment is crazy.

 

[Dice//]

Please stop calling it "the Ukraine". :S

 

[LQX]

Please stop calling it "the Ukraine". :S

The Ukraine?

 

[zeroOman]

Out of the big countries (according to Global Firepower):

• Germany: 408
• [B]Poland: 1063[/B]
• Italy: 600
• United Kingdom: 407
• France: 423
• Romania: 1100

Keep in mind they aren't all equal. Germany and the UK have the best tanks (Leopard II and Challenger II), while the former eastern bloc use mostly old Soviet equipment (T-XX stuff).

No way

 

[Kadayi]

A Referendum that would be called by a puppet government installed by Russia while Russia stokes the ethnic flames etc.

I have no issue with a referendum. Right now is not the time and 6 months is not the time though. The Region needs time to chill out and have Russia not directly meddling

Russian interest in the Crimea extends principally to securing their navel base Sevastopol. Post soviet collapse the base has been leased by the Russian government from the Ukranian government. Given the upheavals in Kiev the invasion was pretty much an inevitability.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26367786

They are ethnically russian but they are not russian citizens. They are ukraine citizens.

And people who identify themselves as Scots are British citizens, so your point of distinction is what exactly between the two? Because so far you're not demonstrating one.

 

[cebri.one]

Russia only has 550 T-90. Lots of older Tanks though no doubt. For comparison the US has over 9,000 Abrams

But they are not deployed in europe. At least not all of them

BTW, after looking at some numbers i admit i was completly wrong. I guess i mixed up some numbers from the cold war with actual situation. Right now the EU has a more advanced equipment and beats the russians in raw numbers. However EU has an huge energy dependence from other countries, including russia which could diminish their advantage on the long run.

 

[NyMartin]

Russian Military Helicopters and Infantry convoys moving in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT8zs566fvM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjuLHPVGabA
Operation Oборотень or "Werewolf" is a go

 

[ISOM]

Russian interest in the Crimea extends principally to securing their navel base Sevastopol. Post soviet collapse the base has been leased by the Russian government from the Ukranian government. Given the upheavals in Kiev the invasion was pretty much an inevitability.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26367786


And people who identify themselves as Scots are British citizens, so your point of distinction is what exactly between the two? Because so far you're not demonstrating one.

Russia has no right to be in the Ukraine right now and russia being in the Ukraine right now obviously pushes those regions to be more biased towards separating then they would have been if russia stayed out of the ukraine. That is why a vote should not be allowed. Do you get it yet?

People have been pretty clear in the last couple of pages, you are being either purposely obtuse or acting like an idiot.

 

[H6rdc0re]

Russia only has 550 T-90. Lots of older Tanks though no doubt. For comparison the US has over 9,000 Abrams

Actually it's more like 6.000-6.500 counting M1s, M1A1s and M1A2s but that's still a shit load. Total number of units don't tell the whole story when a lot of equipment is in reserve. Russia especially has about 766.000 active soldiers but about 2.485.000 soldiers on reserve. With the US about 1.430.000 soldiers are on active duty with about 850.000 soldiers on reserve. Like manpower much military equipment is in reserve waiting to be used but counting those wouldn't matter now because you couldn't call on them right now.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Hispanics are the majority race in California, no? (Source). It's a province that was formerly owned by Mexico (Source). So, by your logic, a Mexican invasion of California would just be them protecting their interests, unless they start sending soldiers to the rest of the US?

(Yes, this is exaggeration but I still think it shows how stupid your point is. All countries have mixed demographics, and you can't just invade another country because there are people of the same ethnicity living there. If Crimea wanted to secede to Russia, there are more peaceful ways of going about it.)

I keep telling everyone that Peña Nieto is making Obama look weak!

 

[zeroOman]

WOLVERINES!

mmm weird

 

[Sendou]

Russian Military Helicopters and Infantry convoys moving in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MT8zs566fvM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjuLHPVGabA
Operation Oборотень or "Werewolf" is a go

Few days old stuff already.

The first video is better when set to Hell March.

 

[Dice//]

The Ukraine?

No "the/The/THE/Le" of any sort.

 

[Jinko]

And people who identify themselves as Scots are British citizens, so your point of distinction is what exactly between the two? Because so far you're not demonstrating one.

It's actually more like Ireland being separate from Britain/UK, whilst Northern Ireland being part of it.

 

[RedShift]

The Ukraine?

Drop the "the". Just, Ukraine. It's cleaner.

 

[Osiris]

No "the/The/THE/Le" of any sort.

Use of the definitive article used to be valid when referring to Ukraine, until fairly recently in historical terms, which is why you still see it used.

But admittedly it isn't anymore, at least not in English.

 

[Kadayi]

People have been pretty clear in the last couple of pages, you are being either purposely obtuse or acting like an idiot.

And you're dodging a straight question.

And people who identify themselves as Scots are British citizens, so your point of distinction is what exactly between the two? Because so far you're not demonstrating one.

Fact of the matter is if you're a true proponent of democracy then there is no distinction. You are a true proponent of democracy right?

Drop the "the". Just, Ukraine. It's cleaner.

Outstanding.

 

[mnz]

https://twitter.com/RegSprecher (government spokesperson) talking about talks between Merkel and Putin:

- Merkel blames Russia to have broken law of nations over telephone talks with Putin

- She requests territorial integrity of Ukraine

- Putin accepts proposal to form a "fact finding mission" aswell as a contact group (?) for politcal dialogues

 

[Resident_UA]

FYI - the latest data shows that 41% of Crimeans want to join Russia (Feb 18th). Not sure how reliable it is but it comes from pretty reliable survey agency.

Link: http://m.ukrainian.voanews.com/a/poll-russia-ukraine/1862567.html

 

[jufonuk]

https://twitter.com/RegSprecher talking about talks between Merkel and Putin:

- Merkel blames Russia to have broken law of nations over telephone talks with Putin

- She requests territorial integrity

- Putin accepts proposal to form a "fact finding mission" aswell as a contact group (?) for politcal dialogues

wait so this is a big bluff?, I mean does Putin "invade Crimea", propose military action Ukraine, knowing no one is going to step up, he decides to make himself the good guy by allowing a way out and to save face?

 

[Resident_UA]

wait so this is a big bluff?, I mean does Putin "invade Crimea", propose military action Ukraine, knowing no one is going to step up, he decides to make himself the good guy by allowing a way out and to save face?

We can only hope... It does not sound like him...

 

[MrKnives]

We can only hope... It does not sound like him...

Maybe he just wanted to make sure nobody will do anything. Now the backs off and starts to plan his world domination.

 

[Funky Papa]

Out of the big countries (according to Global Firepower):

• Germany: 408
• Poland: 1063
• Italy: 600
• United Kingdom: 407
• France: 423
• Romania: 1100

Keep in mind they aren't all equal. Germany and the UK have the best tanks (Leopard II and Challenger II), while the former eastern bloc use mostly old Soviet equipment (T-XX stuff).

Spain also has over 300 Leopard II tanks and about 100 Centauro tank destroyers.

Not that we are anywhere close to use them anyway.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

Russia has a lot of tanks. I dont know how Europe could hold them back.

A continental invasion would require more than having lots of tanks in storage. You'd need tons of logistical support, intellegence gathering, months upon months of planning, and thats before you consider having to actually fight a ton of countries. I don't think Russia is geared up to "invade Europe".

 

[ISOM]

And you're dodging a straight question.



Fact of the matter is if you're a true proponent of democracy then there is no distinction. You are a true proponent of democracy right?



Outstanding.

If being a true proponent of democracy is ignoring what Russia being in Ukraine influences than no I am not.

 

[Kadayi]

If being a true proponent of democracy is ignoring what russia being in the Ukraine influences than no I am not.

That's not the question I posed. I'm not interested in the particulars of events at this point in time, more the concept.

 

[CyclopsRock]

http://stopwar.org.uk/news/ten-thin...crisis-in-ukraine-and-the-crimea#.UxOco_B9SuZ

Stop The War aren't even pretending to be anything other than a left wing pressure group now.

 

[demolitio]

Russia has a lot of tanks. I dont know how Europe could hold them back.

There's a reason why some military officials are asking to stop spending on money on new tank designs and that's because the don't play nearly a big of a role as they used to when air superiority is key right now.

Russia has always had an impressive amount of tanks which is why the other nations have focused on complete air superiority and precision bombing.

What ground they gain early on can be taken back and while their anti-air systems are more advances than others, there's ways around them too.

Tanks still serve a role, but having a lot of them is not the game-changer it used to be.

People still overlook the most important aspect of war and that's logistics. Something that France struggled with and Mali and not many countries take seriously. Managing all those tanks and supplying them is a nightmare. Logistics is key and it's the biggest advantage the U.S. has and is something some E.U. nations are working on after recent events.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

http://stopwar.org.uk/news/ten-thin...crisis-in-ukraine-and-the-crimea#.UxOco_B9SuZ

Stop The War aren't even pretending to be anything other than a left wing pressure group now.

This is why I can't take most far left types seriously, even though I lean left.

"Oh, the local Communist Party doesn't like the protests? Obviously the protesters are all fascists and should be shot down on the streets." Some of the stuff I've read about the "bourgeois, US-influenced" Venezuela protests in leftist websites is hilarious.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

There's a reason why some military officials are asking to stop spending on money on new tank designs and that's because the don't play nearly a big of a role as they used to when air superiority is key right now.

Russia has always had an impressive amount of tanks which is why the other nations have focused on complete air superiority and precision bombing.

What ground they gain early on can be taken back and while their anti-air systems are more advances than others, there's ways around them too.

Tanks still serve a role, but having a lot of them is not the game-changer it used to be.

Tanks are not important in surgical, small scale operations. In country vs. country open warfare, they're still very much essential.

 

[mnz]

http://stopwar.org.uk/news/ten-thin...crisis-in-ukraine-and-the-crimea#.UxOco_B9SuZ

Stop The War aren't even pretending to be anything other than a left wing pressure group now.

Also, their map is wrong, Croatia and Albania already joined NATO.