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http://images.scribblelive.com/2014/3/4/eefc359a-39d1-4630-ac4d-9275f02e3c64.jpg[IMG][/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://abload.de/img/tankh6lfw.png
I see brass knuckles for the six-fingered man too.

 

[pigeon interrupted]

Did this ever get posted? Some days old, but saw it in a Swedish newspaper today.
Some actual analysis, and claims about western reporting early on, by someone who could "arguably" (as in maybe not if you're Putin) be called an expert.

Ukraine: The Haze of Propaganda


Other than that it provides a lot of facts about how and why the revolution actually started and what happened, and regardless if you consider yourself up-to-date with the facts or not it should be a very interesting read.

There are many forces at work here. No observation should be disguarded. No bias assumed... wait we are all biased Well, sit back have a coup of tea with me and think of better days gone by. And how maybe they were the same

Hey jimi o/

conspiracy? What is Gerhard Schröder? A Marxist?

edit: lol more conspiracy

I find adapting to any superimposed notion of infallibility provides me opportunity to watch those who have adopted it close up. I'm a gangster, a fake one. I wear a hood, and I wear none. I have pride that I have none. I just keep my mind closed and open but no matter how smart or great your are, that aint what rises and stays at the top. There is no 100% good or bad state, and ima slap the 'evil' out of anyone who says there is

 

[dapperbandit]

Because they're neo-nazis. I'm all for democracy, but when people leveraging it do so with the intent of taking away the rights of others I'm less inclined to consider them deserving of a voice in the political arena, regardless of how popular their grass roots support might be as a result of economic issues.

A few things.

First off, there are several far right groups, with differing levels of intensity and some of them are in opposition to the other. Right Sector had most power on the streets whereas Svoboda is an established party already embedded in the political system. Right Sector opposes Svoboda because they apparently not radical enough. It's not one cohesive group. As redundant as it sounds, there is a distinction between Ultra-Nationalist Fascists and direct Neo Nazis. For example, Lviv has many of the latter, because historically there were many Western Ukrainians who volutneered for the SS.

Second, you must be aware of the contradiction in your point of view; you're in favour of denying democratic rights to a demographic you disagree with, regardless of their popular support. Does that not sound rather authoritarian to you? If you trully believe in democracy you support democratic rights for people you strongly disagree with; you can't have your cake and eat it.

Third; exactly how do you bar these people from the democratic process at a time like this? Greece is trying to ban Golden Dawn and that group is ready to disband and reform under a new name at any time. What about in the Ukraine? Do you really think it's a smart idea to tell a sizeable group of people like Right Sector, paramilitaries that have already proven their tenacity as street fighters, that they have no say in the future of Ukraine?

Like it or not these people have a voice and I think they are entitled to a vote. Not because I support their ideas, but because I believe defeating them democratically keeps them where they belong, in the fringe. Taking away their right to express their views would only strengthen their movement. You have to trust the better nature of the ordinary Ukrainians.

 

[Nivash]

There are many forces at work here. No observation should be disguarded. No bias assumed... wait we are all biased Well, sit back have a coup of tea with me and think of better days gone by. And how maybe they were the same

Hey jimi o/

A coup of tea? Sir, just what kind of game are you playing here!? How about we just have a pint over at the Leg of Muttony and Cauliflower instead.

 

[Funky Papa]

I've made a sport of trashing Merkel, but a Manchurian candidate she's not.

Stop being silly, people.

 

[MacNille]

I see brass knuckles for the six-fingered man too.

 

[pigeon interrupted]

A coup of tea? Sir, just what kind of game are you playing here!? How about we just have a pint over at the Leg of Muttony and Cauliflower instead.

As long I can get my fix of hero in, we good

 

[captainnapalm]

I must say, the ease and comfort with which the West supports street mobs seizing power from elected leaders these days, and the ease with which it immediately sees this mob as a legitimate power worthy of support and protection, is really disturbing.

Is any country with this kind of Western-blessed coup any better off than they were? The Middle East is a mess after their coups - that glorious Arab Spring. The only advantage I can see is you now have Western puppets in power willing do the bidding of those in Washington.

It seems the West will excuse anything - Al-Qaeda in Syria, hardcore ultra nationalists in Ukraine - if it can just get a government in power willing to play ball. Such a dangerous, dangerous game they're playing.

 

[Osiris]

Yes, murderous cretins that use snipers on their own people really should be left alone and supported. /s

 

[Nivash]

I must say, the ease and comfort with which the West supports street mobs seizing power from elected leaders these days, and the ease with which it immediately sees this mob as a legitimate power worthy of support and protection, is really disturbing.

Is any country with this kind of Western-blessed coup any better off than they were? The Middle East is a mess after their coups - that glorious Arab Spring. The only advantage I can see is you now have Western puppets in power willing do the bidding of those in Washington.

It seems the West will excuse anything - Al-Qaeda in Syria, hardcore ultra nationalists in Ukraine - if it can just get a government in power willing to play ball. Such a dangerous, dangerous game they're playing.

That wasn't really the case though. The "West" only got involved directly when the government started killing protesters, and even then only by sanctioning government officials personally. It's also hard to blame the EU for supporting the protests in spirit because they were, after all, pro-EU.

The "West" only really started siding with the opposition government once Russia went in like a bull in a china shop. There was already a decision to give Ukraine an IMF loan before that, but that was largely to avoid economic collapse because everyone was convinced that Russia would repeal that 15 billion economic agreement they had with Yanukovich. Which they of course wasted no time doing.

 

[Simplet]

I must say, the ease and comfort with which the West supports street mobs seizing power from elected leaders these days, and the ease with which it immediately sees this mob as a legitimate power worthy of support and protection, is really disturbing.

Is any country with this kind of Western-blessed coup any better off than they were? The Middle East is a mess after their coups - that glorious Arab Spring. The only advantage I can see is you now have Western puppets in power willing do the bidding of those in Washington.

It seems the West will excuse anything - Al-Qaeda in Syria, hardcore ultra nationalists in Ukraine - if it can just get a government in power willing to play ball. Such a dangerous, dangerous game they're playing.

What? The new president was already an MP and had been prime minister briefly in 2010. The whole parliament is still the same, the only difference is that they kicked out Yanukovich. You make it sound like some street gang of nazis murdered their way into the parliament and put their leader as the head of state.

 

[Liha]

Yes, murderous cretins that use snipers on their own people really should be left alone and supported. /s

Where was the world when tanks from Saudi Arabia cleared the camps in Bahrain 2011?

 

[Walshicus]

Where was the world when tanks from Saudi Arabia cleared the camps in Bahrain 2011?

Absent. Doesn't invalidate support for Ukraine in this instance though.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Where was the world when tanks from Saudi Arabia cleared the camps in Bahrain 2011?

Probably talking about something else to shift attention so they could avoid condemning the KSA and GCC from occupying a foreign territory under pretense of "maintaining stability" to ensure the safety of military ports.

Hmmmmmmm

 

[Osiris]

Where was the world when tanks from Saudi Arabia cleared the camps in Bahrain 2011?

Is there a rule about ensuring at least one whataboutism post per page or something?

SA was wrong and the world have have reacted to it, satisfied?

 

[Kadayi]

First off, there are several far right groups, with differing levels of intensity and some of them are in opposition to the other. Right Sector had most power on the streets whereas Svoboda is an established party already embedded in the political system. Right Sector opposes Svoboda because they apparently not radical enough. It's not one cohesive group. As redundant as it sounds, there is a distinction between Ultra-Nationalist Fascists and direct Neo Nazis. For example, Lviv has many of the latter, because historically there were many Western Ukrainians who volutneered for the SS.

And when either wishes to build an alliance to strengthen their position whom do you think they're most likely to reach out to exactly?

Second, you must be aware of the contradiction in your point of view; you're in favour of denying democratic rights to a demographic you disagree with, regardless of their popular support. Does that not sound rather authoritarian to you? If you truly believe in democracy you support democratic rights for people you strongly disagree with; you can't have your cake and eat it.

The first tenement of participation in democracy should be the recognition of it as both a universal and immutable state for all. It's all very well to argue that these people deserve a voice because of a popularity based on transitional events, but if their voice is one that would see the very mechanisms of democracy undermined to the detriment of others then forgive me for not being inclined to feel them deserving of a political voice within the very system they themselves would choose to de-construct and deny others given the opportunity.

Third; exactly how do you bar these people from the democratic process at a time like this? Greece is trying to ban Golden Dawn and that group is ready to disband and reform under a new name at any time. What about in the Ukraine? Do you really think it's a smart idea to tell a sizeable group of people like Right Sector, paramilitaries that have already proven their tenacity as street fighters, that they have no say in the future of Ukraine?

So might is right in this particular case?

Like it or not these people have a voice and I think they are entitled to a vote. Not because I support their ideas, but because I believe defeating them democratically keeps them where they belong, in the fringe. Taking away their right to express their views would only strengthen their movement. You have to trust the better nature of the ordinary Ukrainians.

Forgive me if I'm less than confident in an electorate that considers a former heavy weight boxer as a credible candidate to lead their country to be reasoned and considered in their thinking. I'm a celebrity make me president.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Absent. Doesn't invalidate support for Ukraine in this instance though.

According to the article posted last page it does.

But the author is a dumb Trot so yeah.

Third; exactly how do you bar these people from the democratic process at a time like this? Greece is trying to ban Golden Dawn and that group is ready to disband and reform under a new name at any time. What about in the Ukraine? Do you really think it's a smart idea to tell a sizeable group of people like Right Sector, paramilitaries that have already proven their tenacity as street fighters, that they have no say in the future of Ukraine?

Ah. The "More Liberal than Thou" card.

 

[MGrant]

It seems the West will excuse anything - Al-Qaeda in Syria, hardcore ultra nationalists in Ukraine - if it can just get a government in power willing to play ball. Such a dangerous, dangerous game they're playing.

I see what you're saying; that the US/EU are contributing to the problem by pushing for regime change in non-member states.

But Syria is an unsolvable problem because Putin fears that a pro-Western regime will replace the one with whom he has so many deals. Ukraine is becoming unsolvable because Putin AGAIN fears Western presence in what he thinks of as Russia's historical "sphere."

Say what you will about the West's ulterior motives, and I'm sure there are Western actors making power plays here, but in my view the US/EU desires regional stability as its ultimate goal. Putin, however, treats Syria and Ukraine as zero-sum games: fuck regional stability and human lives if it means more for me and/or less for my cold-war adversaries.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Syria and Ukraine aren't immediately comparable. The Syrian opposition is riddled with anti Semites who have taken to murdering those that won't collaborate and chopping off the heads of those that are not ideologically pure enough.


If the West wanted regional stability in either Ukraine or Syria then we wouldn't have seen McCain glad handing Islamists and Fascists prior to the outbreak.

 

[Roude Leiw]

was this posted yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZolXrjGIBJs
Russia Today news anchor heavily criticizing Putin/Russia.

 

[cjp]

17:49
Russia would retaliate if the US imposed sanctions over its actions in Ukraine, the Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman says. "We will have to respond," says Alexander Lukashevich. "As always in such situations, provoked by rash and irresponsible actions by Washington, we stress: This is not our choice." - Reuters.

Respond how, I wonder?

 

[And_Gignac]

I see what you're saying; that the US/EU are contributing to the problem by pushing for regime change in non-member states.

But Syria is an unsolvable problem because Putin fears that a pro-Western regime will replace the one with whom he has so many deals. Ukraine is becoming unsolvable because Putin AGAIN fears Western presence in what he thinks of as Russia's historical "sphere."

Say what you will about the West's ulterior motives, and I'm sure there are Western actors making power plays here, but in my view the US/EU desires regional stability as its ultimate goal. Putin, however, treats Syria and Ukraine as zero-sum games: fuck regional stability and human lives if it means more for me and/or less for my cold-war adversaries.

Stability that is convenient to the west, not to the inhabitants of those regions.

was this posted yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZolXrjGIBJs
Russia Today news anchor heavily criticizing Putin/Russia.

Amazing.

 

[Nivash]

Where was the world when tanks from Saudi Arabia cleared the camps in Bahrain 2011?

You do realize Bahrain went down at the same time as Libya, right? The attention of the west was focused on another brutal crackdown on peaceful protests that escalated to full civil war. The final crackdown in Bahrain occurred at the same time as the Libyan air campaign got into full swing.

The entire Middle East was in an uproar during the Arab Spring. The west spent most of its military and diplomatic capital on Libya because they couldn't be everywhere at once.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

You do realize Bahrain went down at the same time as Libya, right? The attention of the west was focused on another brutal crackdown on peaceful protests that escalated to full civil war. The final crackdown in Bahrain occurred at the same time as the Libyan air campaign got into full swing.

The entire Middle East was in an uproar during the Arab Spring. The west spent most of its military and diplomatic capital on Libya because they couldn't be everywhere at once.

Also the Fifth Fleet had a little something to do with it.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

was this posted yet?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZolXrjGIBJs
Russia Today news anchor heavily criticizing Putin/Russia.

RTs response:

Contrary to the popular opinion, RT doesn't beat its journalists into submission, and they are free to express their own opinions, not just in private but on the air. This is the case with Abby's commentary on the Ukraine.

We respect her views, and the views of all our journalists, presenters and program hosts, and there will be absolutely no reprimands made against Ms. Martin.

In her comment Ms. Martin also noted that she does not possess a deep knowledge of reality of the situation in Crimea. As such we'll be sending her to Crimea to give her an opportunity to make up her own mind from the epicentre of the story.

 

[Partial Gamification]

RTs response:

As such we'll be sending her to Crimea to give her an opportunity to make up her own mind from the epicentre of the story.

Oh wow. I read this so many was.

 

[Purkake4]

This is all really weird and getting weirder by the day. Either there's some super plan in the works or someone's just playing this by the ear.

 

[Freedom = $1.05]

RTs response:

Aw jeez, that's messed up

 

[Roude Leiw]

RTs response:

i hope she comes back alive.

 

[Osiris]

i hope she comes back alive.

Where did it say they were letting her come back?

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

You do realize Bahrain went down at the same time as Libya, right? The attention of the west was focused on another brutal crackdown on peaceful protests that escalated to full civil war. The final crackdown in Bahrain occurred at the same time as the Libyan air campaign got into full swing.

The entire Middle East was in an uproar during the Arab Spring. The west spent most of its military and diplomatic capital on Libya because they couldn't be everywhere at once.

And because we were more than happy to have the Bahrain revolution stamped out.

 

[MGrant]

Stability that is convenient to the west, not to the inhabitants of those regions.

I'm trying to think about this from a different perspective. How do you think Russia's latest moves (support of Assad, rejection of the Ukrainian parliament, and the occupation of Crimea) are more convenient for the inhabitants of Syria and Ukraine versus the Western approach?

 

[commedieu]

Oh wow. I read this so many was.

Eh, i think you're reading the implied threat that the rest of us are.
Flew too close to the sun methinks... RIP.

 

[dapperbandit]

Ah. The "More Liberal than Thou" card.

lol

I'm not that liberal, I'm speaking practically.

Forbidding Fascist paramilitaries a vote leaves them with protest as their only option; guess what, these guys are kind of violent! In the state Ukraine is in at the moment, more turmoil, street fighting and political instability is not desirable. It would be easier to simply sideline them democratically than give them reasons to cause more trouble by essentially legitimizing their protest.

 

[pestul]

RTs response:

In her comment Ms. Martin also noted that she does not possess a deep knowledge of reality of the situation in Crimea. As such we'll be sending her to Crimea to give her an opportunity to make up her own mind from the epicentre of the story.

Ummm.. Christ. That last line.

 

[Partial Gamification]

Eh, i think you're reading the implied threat that the rest of us are.
Flew too close to the sun methinks... RIP.

She could have asked for it? Its a huge story and would be a great opportunity. RT would look good sending someone critical of Russia. It does have that gulag finality too.
Its the degrees of evil that can be interpreted, really from zero to maliciously sacrificing the innocent (to dread it ever getting to that point).

 

[Nivash]

Also the Fifth Fleet had a little something to do with it.

And because we were more than happy to have the Bahrain revolution stamped out.

I'm not denying that it was convenient for the US. But even if the 5th Fleet hadn't been headquartered in NSA Bahrain, NATO was still busy with the even bloodier situation in Libya where there were signs it could even turn into genocide if they didn't step in directly.

 

[Linkhero1]

RTs response:

That doesn't sound right.

 

[commedieu]

She could have asked for it? Its a huge story and would be a great opportunity. RT would look good sending someone critical of Russia. It does have that gulag finality too.
Its the degrees of evil that can be interpreted, really from zero to maliciously sacrificing the innocent (to dread it ever getting to that point).

Oh yeah definitely.. posting on the face value, just sounds a tad ominous.

 

[pigeon interrupted]

Putin, however, treats Syria and Ukraine as zero-sum games: fuck regional stability and human lives if it means more for me and/or less for my cold-war adversaries.

And division is not multiplication...

Sorry, less cryptic: do you honestly think nobody wants peace and safety for their children?

 

[Uncle]

She could have asked for it? Its a huge story and would be a great opportunity. RT would look good sending someone critical of Russia. It does have that gulag finality too.
Its the degrees of evil that can be interpreted, really from zero to maliciously sacrificing the innocent (to dread it ever getting to that point).

And if she then changes her mind while there, it just goes to show how silly the critics are.

 

[captainnapalm]

I see what you're saying; that the US/EU are contributing to the problem by pushing for regime change in non-member states.

But Syria is an unsolvable problem because Putin fears that a pro-Western regime will replace the one with whom he has so many deals. Ukraine is becoming unsolvable because Putin AGAIN fears Western presence in what he thinks of as Russia's historical "sphere."

Say what you will about the West's ulterior motives, and I'm sure there are Western actors making power plays here, but in my view the US/EU desires regional stability as its ultimate goal. Putin, however, treats Syria and Ukraine as zero-sum games: fuck regional stability and human lives if it means more for me and/or less for my cold-war adversaries.

Surreptitiously interfering in the domestic affairs of countries around the globe by fostering revolt is not in the interests of regional or global stability. I don't know how you can look at the Middle East and not see that the West has been actively destabilising that region for the past decade. They don't care about destabilisation if their greater interests are being satisfied. They have no concern for how that chaos may affect the people of those countries. If they did, they wouldn't be backing street mobs and terrorists in the region over governments in power.

We've seen this narrative play out many times now. And it will play out again in Ukraine. People there will soon realise who they've made a deal with. Nothing good will come of this coup.

 

[Partial Gamification]

That doesn't sound right.

Seems legit:

UPDATE (11:39 a.m.): RT has released the following statement (first to HuffPo UK) defending its journalists' editorial independence and announcing that Martin will be dispatched to Crimea:
politico

Unless someone pranked huffpo.

edit:

And if she then changes her mind while there, it just goes to show how silly the critics are.

yeah that too.

 

[Amalthea]

I really hope Putin ends up like Mussolini one day.

 

[pigeon interrupted]

Surreptitiously interfering in the domestic affairs of countries around the globe by fostering revolt is not in the interests of regional or global stability. I don't know how you can look at the Middle East and not see that the West has been actively destabilising that region for the past decade. They don't care about destabilisation if their greater interests are being satisfied. They have no concern for how that chaos may affect the people of those countries. If they did, they wouldn't be backing street mobs and terrorists in the region over governments in power.

We've seen this narrative play out many times now. And it will play out again in Ukraine. People there will soon realise who they've made a deal with. Nothing good will come of this coup.

And nothing was lost or gained.

EDIT:
Apart from lives of the young. I'm not tryiung to be clever or flippant, RIP

 

[Kadayi]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/03/no_contest_ukraine_obama_putin

Ouch

 

[CitizenVectron]

Surreptitiously interfering in the domestic affairs of countries around the globe by fostering revolt is not in the interests of regional or global stability. I don't know how you can look at the Middle East and not see that the West has been actively destabilising that region for the past decade. They don't care about destabilisation if their greater interests are being satisfied. They have no concern for how that chaos may affect the people of those countries. If they did, they wouldn't be backing street mobs and terrorists in the region over governments in power.

We've seen this narrative play out many times now. And it will play out again in Ukraine. People there will soon realise who they've made a deal with. Nothing good will come of this coup.

But they haven't made a deal with anyone. It's not like the US put them in power. Some people seem to think that the US or EU were behind this whole thing. They are taking advantage, I am sure, but they didn't orchestrate it.

 

[EvaristeG]

Has this been posted already ?

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/...-martin-condemns-russian-incursion-crimea-rt/

 

[Simplet]

Surreptitiously interfering in the domestic affairs of countries around the globe by fostering revolt is not in the interests of regional or global stability. I don't know how you can look at the Middle East and not see that the West has been actively destabilising that region for the past decade. They don't care about destabilisation if their greater interests are being satisfied. They have no concern for how that chaos may affect the people of those countries. If they did, they wouldn't be backing street mobs and terrorists in the region over governments in power.

We've seen this narrative play out many times now. And it will play out again in Ukraine. People there will soon realise who they've made a deal with. Nothing good will come of this coup.

You're not making the slightest bit of sense. Mubarak was the mother of all western puppets, and somehow the evil US got the CIA to put millions of people in the streets just to replace him with the muslim brotherhood?

The whole thing happened three years ago, hopefully you just have a very short memory instead of being completely ignorant.

 

[pigeon interrupted]

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/03/no_contest_ukraine_obama_putin

Ouch

New con is the old con. Not sure any1 realises tho.
There are always other forces at work (._.)