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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT3| To infinites... and beyond!

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
I had something super weird happen last night.

We were playing random teams and I got stuck with Dr. Strange/Rocket Raccoon. I hit with Logtrap Assist while I was teleporting behind. The opponent's body carried Dr. Strange all the way across the entire stage, even as I was hitting it with Strange's normals... and he still wallbounced even though Dr. Strange was blocking his trajectory. Is that normal?


Hey man I definitely suggested a buff to Multilock.

I think at the minimum though 3D, 3C, 2D1C and 1D2C have to be very good. In Vanilla only 3D was good, the rest were meh. In Ultimate the first 3 are good but 3C still sucks so we were trying to fix that.

Beyond that I couldn't give a damn about the 1D, 2C stuff especially the 00 spell. These particularly can't be that good, your end goal should always be full stock. I mean 00 should not even have a hit box, it should just be Dorm flexing and realizing he has nothing then gets bopped for it (like PW trying to present bad evidence). That's why it was nuts that Karst proposed the move should be a 5 framer move on Dorm...

I'd just as soon remove the partial stock spells and add an HDR T.Hawk whiff animation to Dormammu for not having full stock, but I know that won't be popular.

0D3C is the one that creates slowdown and inability to jump, right? If you're making it OTG, I don't see why it needs to be projectile invincible. Frankly, it OTGing borders on being too good for reset potential. Being unable to jump is a ridiculous cripple.
 
D

Deleted member 13876

Unconfirmed Member
I'm skimming through some old posts from the OTs. It's funny seeing who was right and wrong.

I remember a certain someone shouting bloody murder because they were going to nerf Morrigan to oblivion.
 

Frantic

Member
The first buff I'd give to Dantes special moves would be making Scat Shot come out from frame 1-12 instead of 18-29. I just want a fast fullscreen projectile with Dante, man.

But honestly, Dante has too many moves to make good. If you make all of them have good uses in the neutral(which they already have if you know what you're doing), he would probably end up far and away the best character(which he might end up being in this changelist, anyways!)
 

Dahbomb

Member
We are not adding the slow on 3C and its not unblockable.

Karst we are just deciding on air OK Rising Fang without projectile invulverability.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
The first buff I'd give to Dantes special moves would be making Scat Shot come out from frame 1-12 instead of 18-29. I just want a fast fullscreen projectile with Dante, man.

But honestly, Dante has too many moves to make good. If you make all of them have good uses in the neutral(which they already have if you know what you're doing), he would probably end up far and away the best character(which he might end up being in this changelist, anyways!)

I dunno. You seem so gun-shy about making Dante too good, but everything's changing with this "update". There is no way that the current changes have suddenly made Dante the best character. And Dante's tools should be good considering how slow they are.

And again. I know most of them have uses in neutral, but quite frankly, several of them don't. I will never see Revolver outside of combo videos.
 

Dahbomb

Member
But you guys gave him a faster st.L... so he's not slow anymore. Especially with the range on that move.

Also Dante not having all of his moves being useful in neutral is canon.
 

Fringot

Neo Member
Sorry, I meant Doom instead of Wesker.

Anyways, here is what user ifbpwnstar posted on Shoryuken.com's forums:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/180783/rebalancing-umvc3-post-evo-2013
SRK just now posted an article detailing Capcom's interest in rebalancing the game. I'm sure we all have a long list of what to change and what not, but I urge that we really evaluate concepts that make the game...more chaotic and random versus consistently skillful. So here are my issues with the game and what needs to be fixed beyond simple character buffs/nerfs.

Current State of the Game - Currently the game is still very open to much of the cast unlike MvC2. However 2 archetypes tend to dominate in high level play for the most part: TOD vortexes and Space Control Lockdown. The TOD vortex is the standard 1 combo kill with an ambiguous reset on incoming. Space Control Lockdown is using characters like Morrigan or Vergil to constantly keep the opponent pinned down till you open up. Typically these teams follow the concept of not letting the other player play once things get rolling, which leads to hype comebacks...but generally braindead gameplay once this establishes and turns into a dexterity competition. Gimicks and team tech have begun to thin out fundamentals and neutral game is occurring less and less with how far damage and synergy has come since Vanilla day1.

So what concepts are breaking the game?

TODs are too easy to accomplish and build - TODs make perfect sense in marvel, however currently a lot of characters can accomplish them for little effort, resources, or team consideration. Capcom took strides to lessen meter gain in attempts to lower damage output and nerf Phoenix indirectly, however combos and unexpected no-hitstun extensions have evolved too far and typically most teams can deal 1 mil with a single meter at start without need of X-factor. If your character can't, simply adding a character like Vergil or Spencer, a free reset gimick, or a TAC infinite can give any character a free TOD. Team synergy to accomplish this is a good thing, but we are seeing it become too commonplace with too many mixes. Resources and shells need to be planned more carefully and give the player narrower options if they must have a TOD. There needs to be a sacrifice in utility or some other area to justify an easy TOD with a single character or pairing.

This has lead to making the game less deep by invalidating the need for neutral game resets, managing resources, and making characters who should do TODs invalidated by characters that shouldn't by design (EX: hulk vs zero...why does zero get self 1meter TODs and hulk has to use a specific team???). We also have some characters that deal too much damage for minimal effort, making optimal combos laughably pointless at times (EX: doom s.HS, sjc.MM,footdive,footdive (x3!)).

Incoming vortexes - This is by far the worst problem in UMvC3 right now. In combination with easy access TODs, it's not uncommon for wolverine or zero to open the match up with a hit and literally end the fight in 3 combos with 2 incoming vortexes. For the opponent, the incoming is a guess...it is not a skillful block unless the attacking player messes up and leaves an indication of the side to block. What we have is far too much reward for being hit and no real options for the other player. Sometimes these can be inescapable, give the attacker more free set ups to keep attacking even if you block right, etc... Basically the skill is purely in how ambiguous the set up can be crafted, but for the other player there's no real level of training that can prepare you for high level set ups that are truly ambiguous.

A simple fix of letting incoming choose a direction to emerge or placing a temporary scaling penalty to a combo if hit (similar to a throw which scales damage and hitstun remaining). The offense deserves neutral game advantage, however they do not deserve a free setup with no consideration to the actions of the second player. This is a two player game, not a combo video. You shouldn't be rewarded for a guess scenario that wasn't set up in neutral game. Calling jam session and running under the opponent who can't even see you is not exactly a skill intensive effort that should yield a free TOD followup because they guessed wrong. The incoming opponent is already disadvantaged by a lost teammate and a 4 second penalty denying them access to assists, alpha counters, THCs, DHCs, hard tags, and a forced arc of movement.

Some characters have excelled beyond their design - I think the worst case of this is Zero. Zero has high priority normals, great movement, self setting cross ups/mix ups, gimicks, auto correcting safe buster, etc... This character is blatantly designed to open the opponent up and have a dominating neutral game. The trade off was low damage and low life...however with TODs so highly prevalent, life totals have become more meaningless and Lightning Loop has now made Zero one of the most efficient self sustaining TOD vortexs in the game for very low meter limitations. The character has exceeded his role as a low damage mix/up and heavy priority character that would need a heavy hitter normally to deal damage, burn 3 meter, or depend on drop combo resets. The character now doesn't need to focus on those problems and has a free pass to build teams to fill his other gaps, leaving no real weakness to the character unlike others who must pick and choose what they can or cant have in the end.

This is simple a matter of forcing characters into respective archetypes. Strider is a great example of how Zero should work out. He possess great neutral game advantage and very solid assists, however he must work really hard for damage or burn resources that may not guarantee a full comeback. He is a balanced. As well reset heavy characters should not be out damaging heavy hitters like Hulk who must work hard to get in and land a hit.

X-Factor offensive perks - I fully believe in the concept of a comeback factor in UMvC3. Why? Because without it the game snowballs as you lose utility. It cripples the opponent too much after the fact. The solution however needs to work as an equilibrium...not a get out of jail free insane mode. The idea behind it should be one that is more defensive in nature not offensive. Right now it can be used as an offensive tool for insane dmg buffs, speed to dominate neutral game, and worst of all punishing the opponent on block for a free kill. There's a lot of room for thought, but at the end X-Factor should be about aiding survivability and compensating for loss of utility of an assist. Concepts to play with are more healing, less damage taken, armor, buffing only hyper dmg or certain moves not normals, bursting out of combos or adding hitstun penalty if you get hit, both characters return to neutral (canceling an attack but removing the freebie punish factor), etc... X-factor needs to balance the playing feel, not hand you control.

TACs - In short TAC infinites need to go, but more importantly the concepts of TACs don't work. TAC's give 3 specific perks and a free character swap out. The idea is that the 3 perks will give a mindgame of wagering at risk of dropping the combo. Up - more dmg, down - free meter, side - steal meter. Now combos have made up and down completely pointless since you will likely deal more damage and gain enough meter to make it a mute point. The side is the only true perk that gives the defending player a coherent mind game. If the offense doesn't care about stealing meter, they likely don't care what option they pick so long as it works. The mind game is broken, we are now just guessing.

TAC's need to accept the trade off that you broke the combo and the swap out and immediate perk should be more than enough with a small ender after wards to wrap it up. This means the up and down need to be reevaluated. Down should provide more meter or something related, and up needs a whole new perk added to it. Perks that would create a solid mind game of utility between the 3 are: regen red health, dmg or speed buff after the combo ends, snap back, debuff to opponent such as slow, etc... So rather than be about guessing it becomes more about locking out the option you dont want your opponent to get. This also means the combo following should be very limited as the rewards are already justified for the attempt.

Unblockable/inescapable vortexes - This is a gray area, sometimes this is justified by needing a very specific team that can fall apart to make it a risk/reward, but sometimes they can cheat the game and win the whole match. This is mostly still in relation to incoming, but beyond the initial incoming attempt there's some dirty vortexes that can repeat to get easy TODs and too many free set ups. There should be unblockables indeed, but in terms of free setups they simply just need to be looked at. Being hit by an unblockable should come at the price of doing something wrong in the neutral game to get set up.

SOMETHING TO REMEMBER - The FGC adopts a wonderful concept of "adapt, don't nerf". However I feel this is a philosophy that makes a better player, not a better game. At the end of the day you need to ask, does current tech add depth? Or invalidate options and make it more shallow? Buffs can fix neutral game and output issues, but sometimes rewards and options are too strong with disregard to what the other player can do. I see UMvC3 as intensely over buffed. Giving you tools to fight zero or vergil doesn't change the fact they output way too much damage and gain too much reward once you are hit or blocking. Basically it's like firing at the hip with bazookas right now. We need to see neutral game options become more prevalent and free kills and set ups become more justified. I think it's fair to say that sometimes the character makes a bigger difference than the player more often than it should.

His observation of the Umvc3 metagame is spot on and his analysis of the top playing styles are fairly accurate.

From my own experience, I have experienced TOD vortexes from fighting pro players and its quite difficult to defend against or avoid with my mostly low tier team, especially since I usually use Hsien-Ko or Thor on point: {Team is usually Hsien-Ko, Thor, with a rotating third from the choices of Nova, Zero, and Phoenix Wright, and no, I've never done Zero's "slip and slide" lightning loop. I use him for the same reason I use anybody on the team, since they are favorites.}

Speaking of which, it would be awesome if Juggernaut was in this generation of MvC. Plus, there would finally be a fist big enough to punch Modok's head.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
But you guys gave him a faster st.L... so he's not slow anymore. Especially with the range on that move.

No, we gave him a faster c.L. That's a big difference. But you're still right, he isn't as abysmally slow.

Anyway, I don't mean to derail. Maybe some things can be revisited during the second review.
 

Dahbomb

Member
This guy has said what we all have been talking about, all extremely valid points and all well said. A particularly like his comment about Zero in that the character has far surpassed his original design.

I agree on pretty much all his points BUT I don't agree with his solutions to the problems. Yes TOD vortexes are too good but side switch on incoming is too drastic and big for the game. Yes TACs are bad but just changing around the benefits of TAC is a poor solution to the real problem which is the random factor.
 

Frantic

Member
I dunno. You seem so gun-shy about making Dante too good, but everything's changing with this "update". There is no way that the current changes have suddenly made Dante the best character. And Dante's tools should be good considering how slow they are.
Mainly because I view Dante as one of the best characters in the game already if you've got the know-how. With the nerfs to the other top tiers, and the slight buffs to Dante, he's pretty up there in this proposed changelist imo.

And again. I know most of them have uses in neutral, but quite frankly, several of them don't. I will never see Revolver outside of combo videos.
I use it! After a Million Dollars in the corner, you have zero time to set up anything, so I just cr.L > Revolver and if someone pushes a button I win. If they don't, they have to block fireworks(cr.L is to time it so they can't just throw you in between the final hit of Revolver and Fireworks, but not enough that their buttons wins, since they still haven't come in yet).

I use it in other spots, too, but they're more situational and harder to describe!

Also Dante not having all of his moves being useful in neutral is canon.
I've always found it funny that a lot of the less used moves in DMC3 get a lot more use in MvC3(Hammer, Volcano, Acid Rain, Hysteric, Drive, Crystal).
 

Dahbomb

Member
Hmmm...what would he lose?
Just add it in the section where it says "Rising Fang can be used outside Rekka series".

Crystal is useful in neutral for DMC3 because the follow up Carats is very strong in crowds. Hammar is great for tall enemies/bosses, does a lot of damage really fast. Drive has gradually been improved in every DMC game, even in DMC3 it was pretty good thanks to buffering. Acid Rain and Hysteric definitely are meh as hell move though, low damage lots of start up.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Mainly because I view Dante as one of the best characters in the game already if you've got the know-how. With the nerfs to the other top tiers, and the slight buffs to Dante, he's pretty up there in this proposed changelist imo.

I use it! After a Million Dollars in the corner, you have zero time to set up anything, so I just cr.L > Revolver and if someone pushes a button I win. If they don't, they have to block fireworks(cr.L is to time it so they can't just throw you in between the final hit of Revolver and Fireworks, but not enough that their buttons wins, since they still haven't come in yet).

I use it in other spots, too, but they're more situational and harder to describe!

I've always found it funny that a lot of the less used moves in DMC3 get a lot more use in MvC3(Hammer, Volcano, Acid Rain, Hysteric, Drive, Crystal).

Why would I Revolver in that situation when I can Crystal instead? Generally speaking, I have enough time to setup an assist call after a corner Million Dollars, so I don't have to worry too much about setting something up separately anyway.

Dante has alwys been one of the best and underutilized characters in the game. I firmly believe that. But I don't think that these tweaks suddenly make him overly powerful. The meta has changed with the rise of the low tier.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I think we are done with IF, we have packed in as many buffs as we possibly can. He now has every tool he needs while still having some weaknesses that can be rectified by having assists.

Nova got slap on the wrist type nerfs and a couple of considerable buffs (better cr.L and better ways to use his Grav moves). Buffed still due to getting Energy Javelin as an assist.

Dorm got 2 decent sized nerfs, some decent buffs to his useless spells (which still won't get used much), a big buff to 3C (which still won't get used much) and some buffs to his normals that revert them to Vanilla status. Mostly was buffed due to better assists.

Skrull got 2 great assists now, a hyper that is safer, a special that is safer and more ways to utilize armored moves in tight situations. Does less damage because Inferno did a tad bit too much damage so its fair.


I think we are done here unless someone has additional changes. Definitely tapped out on IF and Dorm... Nova and Skrull can use a few more talking points other than that we are ready to move on.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
I think you should leave Nova's j.H unchanged if you're going to nerf his airthrow. The airthrow nerf is a bigger deal than the j.H.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I think you should leave Nova's j.H unchanged if you're going to nerf his airthrow. The airthrow nerf is a bigger deal than the j.H.
I think we did, we opted only for air throw changes, j.H remains in tact.

BTW I just realized they don't even need new coding for Meteor Smash tracking... his LVL3 already tracks so they can just port over that property.
 

Frantic

Member
Why would I Revolver in that situation when I can Crystal instead? Generally speaking, I have enough time to setup an assist call after a corner Million Dollars, so I generally don't have to worry too much about setting something up anyway.
Because Revolver catches airdashes and double jumps, Crystal does not. It forces every character(besides Sent, but if he uses Hard Drive against Dante, he isn't safe) to come down to the ground and block. It's also much less likely to get stuffed by stupid shit like incoming Dimensional Slash, and will punish any attempt at doing a Dimensional Slash.
 
Doctor Doom:
*Hitstun reduced on s.M and s.H (fewer OTG relaunches).
*If Doom is hit during Hidden Missiles, missiles which have not yet gained their tracking property fail to do so.
*Hidden Missiles assist now fires 2 fewer missiles missiles.
*Plasma Beam no longer appears behind the point character.
*Plasma Beam assist hitstun reduced slightly.

Assists: Plasma Beam M, Molecular Shield H, Hidden Missiles

M.O.D.O.K.:
*M.O.D.O.K. automatically powers his assists up through levels of understanding when able to.

Assists: Psionic Blast M, Balloon Bomb H, b.H

Thor:
*Mighty Spark startup hitbox extended downward more.
*Mighty Smash M causes a hard knockdown after the ground bounce.
*Mighty Smash L super armor from frames 6-20.
*Flight Startup reduced to 20 frames.

Assists: Mighty Spark M, Mighty Smash M, Mighty Speech (complete speech)

Trish:
*Trick “Hopscotch” travel time and hitstun increased; assist version now OTGs.
*Flight startup reduced to 15 frames.
*s.L reduced to 4 frames.
*High Voltage creates a small vacuum effect to ensure more hits connect.
*Duet Pain now hits OTG.
*Low Voltage recovery reduced to 30 across the board.
*Sign Switch H now causes Sparda to home in on the opponent.

Assists: Low Voltage H, Trick “Peekaboo”, Trick “Hopscotch”
 

Sigmaah

Member
New 4 batch:

Doom
MODOK
Thor
Trish

Aka team fliers or "nerf Missiles" batch


Doom
Nerf Damage
Nerf Missiles
Revert j.S back to Vanilla Status
Nerf how many times he can relaunch a nigga as well.

That's about it for Doom on my part. Got no knowledge of the other 3 so that's on y'all.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
Doom:
* Reduce hitbox, hardknockdown time from Footdive
* Hidden Missiles assist reduced from 6 to 4 missiles, missiles disappear upon hitting assist, assist is faster overall
* Shift Plasma Beam assist to be closer to point character
* Increase projectile durability of Molecular Shield
 

Dahbomb

Member
*Plasma Beam assist hitstun reduced slightly.
No need for this, would start affecting people's combos with it. And without the hit stun Iron Man's beam becomes way, way better by default (it already is now better thanks to Doom appearing with the point character).

I also think there is no way Doom can go into the patch without a Foot Dive nerf. I think the hit box should be adjusted so it's not an auto cross up all the time (it can still cross up but it has to be more deliberate). The hit box fucking goes up to his head... HIS HEAD!!!!!


*If Doom is hit during Hidden Missiles, missiles which have not yet gained their tracking property fail to do so.
That's a weird change, just have all missiles be deactivated when Doom gets hit. Way easier that way. He's also firing less missiles now so he won't be on screen as much.
 

Fringot

Neo Member
Dahbomb: I see. That's good to know. As for TACs, I'm not sure how I feel about them. I admit that I like when I guess the opponent's input right and repel their combo. But in terms of game balance, I guess as long as it doesn't lead to a 100% of your life combo or has damage scaling that prevents it from doing too much damage so that it can be mostly used to just build meter or take meter.

As for the future of the game itself, I hope they bring in more characters, I feel that doing so would bring the game closer to being an incredible game as well as bring in new fighting styles to the mix.

By the way, there's actually a 3D Juggernaut rig out there that would fit them environment of MvC3. Maybe Capcom should go and buy it from this artist.

http://the-3dartist.deviantart.com/art/Juggernaut-toonstyle-84952811?offset=0#comments

http://the-3dartist.deviantart.com/art/Dynamesh-doodle-261386534

Juggernaut would be a great addition to the roster, being a high hp, large melee fighter with focus on rushdown attacks and unlike the other big fighters, has no command grab. They should give him a 2 more hypers and a special to round him out though, possibly something to cover what he's missing. Sentinal and Thor are more balanced in their abilities while Hulk has some ranged ability with his hypers.

Plus, these fights would happen:
http://farm1.staticflickr.com/211/524741834_bb93142f33_z.jpg

http://www.leaderslair.com/lightningcrashes/thor429.jpg
 
No need for this, would start affecting people's combos with it. And without the hit stun Iron Man's beam becomes way, way better by default (it already is now better thanks to Doom appearing with the point character).

I also think there is no way Doom can go into the patch without a Foot Dive nerf. I think the hit box should be adjusted so it's not an auto cross up all the time (it can still cross up but it has to be more deliberate). The hit box fucking goes up to his head... HIS HEAD!!!!!
I don't support a j.S nerf.

My Plasma Beam change was before we made some of the system changes; I'll remove it.

That's a weird change, just have all missiles be deactivated when Doom gets hit. Way easier that way. He's also firing less missiles now so he won't be on screen as much.
That's too big of a nerf. This is the change FGTV suggested IIRC, and I really like it.

Doom:
* Reduce hitbox, hardknockdown time from Footdive
* Hidden Missiles assist reduced from 6 to 4 missiles, missiles disappear upon hitting assist, assist is faster overall
* Shift Plasma Beam assist to be closer to point character
* Increase projectile durability of Molecular Shield
Molecular Shield is good as it is. The windup period has infinite durability and absorbs all non-hyper projectiles. It's a shield/approach combination that works really well. You don't want to give it more durability, it should lose to fireballs after it releases.
 

JeTmAn81

Member
Hah, it is fun. I still think she's firmly in the A-/A range at most.

What are you talking about? She definitely has firm C's at the minimum.

marvel_vs_capcom_3_morrigan_181454366742_640x360.jpg
 

Dahbomb

Member
That's too big of a nerf. This is the change FGTV suggested IIRC, and I really like it.
That's not the change that FGTV requested. I think yours is the one that Viscant suggested.

The FGTV Doom nerf suggested that ALL missiles just follow the first missile. That is to say there is no "shot gun spray" effect of the missiles. This greatly decreases the tracking potency of the assist.

I don't support a j.S nerf.
I definitely do, it's way too derp and leads to unneeded ambiguity. The move has a hit box extending to his face!

30_drdoomhitboxt.jpg


What is this non sense? We nerfed both the Helm Breakers hitting behind them, Doom Foot Diving hitting you on your collar bone for a cross up is the same exact thing.
 

Sigmaah

Member
No need for this, would start affecting people's combos with it. And without the hit stun Iron Man's beam becomes way, way better by default (it already is now better thanks to Doom appearing with the point character).

I also think there is no way Doom can go into the patch without a Foot Dive nerf. I think the hit box should be adjusted so it's not an auto cross up all the time (it can still cross up but it has to be more deliberate).

Agreed, all that needs to be fixed about Plasma Beam is where doom shows up, no need to change the beam.

I don't mind if j.S crosses up, the main issue is Doom having like 10 fucking seconds to combo off of a YOLO footdive which needs to fucking go.

Oh word, we just traded hits and Doom has more then enough time in the world to get back up and combo you? Swerve.

This is the one thing I will not let go, WE ARE NERFING J.S DAWGS.
 

GuardianE

Santa May Claus
I definitely do, it's way too derp and leads to unneeded ambiguity. The move has a hit box extending to his face!

30_drdoomhitboxt.jpg


What is this non sense? We nerfed both the Helm Breakers hitting behind them, Doom Foot Diving hitting you on your collar bone for a cross up is the same exact thing.

No fucking way should Doom Footdive remain as is. Not only is the hitbox ridiculous, but the hard knockdown timing is absolutely silly. You nerfed Nova's hardknockdown timing after throw in a similar fashion.

The only reason why he has that much hardknockdown time is so that people can get one relaunch without dash canceling the Footdive. There's no need for it. Doom shouldn't be able to trade with Footdive, get groundbounced, recover, then get a full combo.
 

Dahbomb

Member
It's not like he even needs the Foot Dive, his air dash down j.M protects him well enough and is safer too. Foot Dive is just an auto derp button.... we just have to reduce the derp.

We reduced Nova's throw time for the same reason. Doom can tea bag you and still pick you up after Foot Dive. He can trade with you and still pick up after Foot Dive.

We reduced posterior hit boxes of Vergil/Dante Helm Breaker because it's retarded getting clipped from behind, Doom gets way more cross up Foot Dives than Dante does.

*Trick “Hopscotch” travel time and hitstun increased; assist version now OTGs.
Why not just make this a point version buff too? This would allow her to pick up after air throws rather than needing a Wesker OTG. The hit stun would be just enough to allow for a pick up after throw but just like Spider's Web Zip it would be too low later in the combo.
 
I think these are my last two focus characters. Only adding changes that fix real problems.


Thor
  • Mighty Smash assist now has super armor
  • Standing H has super armor from frames 6-20
  • Standing L reduced to 6 frames
  • Startup on all versions of Mighty Strike reduced to 15-25(charged) frames, have super armor from frames 12-30 regardless of charging

Thor's major problems are that his normals are terrible and his mobility options are too slow to be as useful as they should be. The change that would make the biggest impact on Thor's viability is making Mighty Strike a real, reliable tool. It's an anti-projectile airdash with a hitbox so we'll speed it up a bit, closer to the startup of the projectiles he'll be fighting with it. Super armor comes naturally, and the charged version is now only needed for extra damage and the soft knockdown.

He has a couple decent normals now so people have a real reason to fear him on the ground, and his Mighty Smash assist is now an awesome tool. I think outside these 4 changes anything else is nitpicking.



Trish
  • Minimum airdash height reduced from 8 to 7 frames
  • Dive kick is now dash-cancelable
  • Hitboxes on low voltage overlap more
  • Round Trip is now 1 medium durability
  • Switch sign refreshes Round Trip
  • jS has a better crossup hitbox
  • Duet Pain now hits OTG

Trish's major problems are converting off aerial hits and not having the durability to use her tools properly. Fixing the hitboxes on Low Voltage let it interact with other projectiles properly, and Round Trip is an excellent preemptive anti-projectile tool.
Dive Kick being dash cancelable doesn't affect her pressure or combos in serious ways, but significantly improves her ability to convert off air-to-air hits.

*Mighty Smash M causes a hard knockdown after the ground bounce.

It does.

Why not just make this a point version buff too? This would allow her to pick up after air throws rather than needing a Wesker OTG. The hit stun would be just enough to allow for a pick up after throw but just like Spider's Web Zip it would be too low later in the combo.
Hopscotch causes more hitstun than any other of her moves. This would greatly increase her combo damage in ways I don't think she deserves considering her other tools. She's one of the few characters that still needs an OTG assist, but she has everything else you could want.
 

Dahbomb

Member
The sword of Sparda getting negated by simple projectiles is an injustice. This is the most powerful sword in the DMC universe.
 
That's not the change that FGTV requested. I think yours is the one that Viscant suggested.

The FGTV Doom nerf suggested that ALL missiles just follow the first missile. That is to say there is no "shot gun spray" effect of the missiles. This greatly decreases the tracking potency of the assist.


I definitely do, it's way too derp and leads to unneeded ambiguity. The move has a hit box extending to his face!

30_drdoomhitboxt.jpg


What is this non sense? We nerfed both the Helm Breakers hitting behind them, Doom Foot Diving hitting you on your collar bone for a cross up is the same exact thing.
Tell me the exact wording for the j.S nerf. I really think it's fine, though. I'm curious about what Zissou has to say.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73006121]I think these are my last two focus characters. Only adding changes that fix real problems.


Thor
  • Mighty Smash assist now has super armor
  • Standing H has super armor from frames 6-20
  • Standing L reduced to 6 frames
  • Startup on all versions of Mighty Strike reduced to 15-25(charged) frames, have super armor from frames 12-30 regardless of charging

Thor's major problems are that his normals are terrible and his mobility options are too slow to be as useful as they should be. The change that would make the biggest impact on Thor's viability is making Mighty Strike a real, reliable tool. It's an anti-projectile airdash with a hitbox so we'll speed it up a bit, closer to the startup of the projectiles he'll be fighting with it. Super armor comes naturally, and the charged version is now only needed for extra damage and the soft knockdown.

He has a couple decent normals now so people have a real reason to fear him on the ground, and his Mighty Smash assist is now an awesome tool. I think outside these 4 changes anything else is nitpicking.[/quote]
Tell me the armor frames on Mighty Smash M assist.

Trish
  • Minimum airdash height reduced from 8 to 7 frames
  • Dive kick is now dash-cancelable
  • Hitboxes on low voltage overlap more
  • Round Trip is now 1 medium durability
  • Switch sign refreshes Round Trip
  • jS has a better crossup hitbox
  • Duet Pain now hits OTG

Trish's major problems are converting off aerial hits and not having the durability to use her tools properly. Fixing the hitboxes on Low Voltage let it interact with other projectiles properly, and Round Trip is an excellent preemptive anti-projectile tool.
Dive Kick being dash cancelable doesn't affect her pressure or combos in serious ways, but significantly improves her ability to convert off air-to-air hits.
No way can Round Trip have medium durability. And how does Sign Switch "refresh" it?


The assist version doesn't; edited to be more clear.
 
I remember a certain someone shouting bloody murder because they were going to nerf Morrigan to oblivion.
Me and an army. Can't say I was entirely wrong, though. There are a few strong Morrigan players in the tournament scene, but I don't hear crap about her anywhere else.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Hopscotch causes more hitstun than any other of her moves. This would greatly increase her combo damage in ways I don't think she deserves considering her other tools. She's one of the few characters that still needs an OTG assist, but she has everything else you could want.
That's why I said it should only have high hit stun at the start, later on in the combo the hit stun would be reduced to a point where you can't get combos off of it.

Tell me the exact wording for the j.S nerf. I really think it's fine, though. I'm curious about what Zissou has to say.
*Reduced hit box so that it is less likely to cross up; less untechable time after j.S still allows for full combos
 
Trish:
*Trick “Hopscotch” travel time and hitstun increased; now OTGs.
*Flight startup reduced to 15 frames.
*s.L reduced to 4 frames.
*High Voltage creates a small vacuum effect to ensure more hits connect.
*Duet Pain now hits OTG.
*Low Voltage recovery reduced to 30 across the board; hitboxes widened.
*Sign Switch H now causes Sparda to home in on the opponent.
*Minimum air dash height reduced from 8 to 7 frames.
*j.S hitbox increased for cross-ups.

Assists: Low Voltage H, Trick “Peekaboo”, Trick “Hopscotch”

Thor:
*Mighty Spark startup hitbox extended downward more.
*Mighty Smash M assist causes a hard knockdown after the ground bounce.
*Mighty Smash L super armor from frames 6-20.
*Flight Startup reduced to 20 frames.
*s.H has super armor from frames 6-20.
*s.L startup reduced to 6 frames.
*Startup on all versions of Mighty Strike reduced to 15-25 (charged) frames, have super armor from frames 12-30 regardless of charging.

Assists: Mighty Spark M, Mighty Smash M, Mighty Speech (complete speech)

M.O.D.O.K.:
*M.O.D.O.K. automatically powers his assists up through levels of understanding when able to.

Assists: Psionic Blast M, Balloon Bomb H, b.H

Doctor Doom:
*Hitstun reduced on s.M and s.H (fewer OTG relaunches).
*If Doom is hit during Hidden Missiles, missiles which have not yet gained their tracking property fail to do so.
*Hidden Missiles assist now fires 2 fewer missiles missiles.
*Plasma Beam no longer appears behind the point character.
*j.S untechable time decreased; still allows for full combos; posterior hitbox reduced slightly.

Assists: Plasma Beam M, Molecular Shield H, Hidden Missiles
 
Adding dash-cancelability on her Dive Kick helps her way more than some of those changes. Why are you decreasing the recovery on Low Voltage? It's not a problem.
Tell me the armor frames on Mighty Smash M assist.


No way can Round Trip have medium durability. And how does Sign Switch "refresh" it?

Frames 36-63. From the last frame of startup just into the second hit


Round Trip has a tiny hitbox, does very little damage and causes unbelievable hitstun decay. On top of that it has one of the slowest projectile startups in the game. Trish's biggest weakness is low durability, and I think buffing Round Trip as an anti-projectile tool is more fair than giving Low Voltage better durability.

Think of Switch Sign like Strange's impact palm on the Eye. It already increases the number of hits, but it actually doesn't add more damage.
 

Dahbomb

Member
So if Doom is hit while the missiles haven't gotten their tracking properties... wouldn't they just keep going straight up?

Round Trip definitely sucks dildos, it has to be improved. And why is she getting a better st.L? She already has a great st.L along with a top 5 cr.L.
 
So if Doom is hit while the missiles haven't gotten their tracking properties... wouldn't they just keep going straight up?

Round Trip definitely sucks dildos, it has to be improved. And why is she getting a better st.L? She already has a great st.L along with a top 5 cr.L.
It seems like her s.L is a little too slow to me.

And yes, if Doom is hit before the missiles gain tracking, they just keep going straight up and disappear or whatever. This makes it more worthwhile to get a hit in on him, but he's not impossible to protect and get his effect, either.
 
Why are you buffing flight on both of those characters? Flight mode isn't an issue for either, and you shouldn't buff them just to add parity with the rest of the cast.

Impact Palm refreshes the durability on Eye of Agamotto. Round Trip doesn't lose durability as it hits opponents; if you stop it on an opponent, it just gets a ton of hits in. So I'm still not seeing what this does.

I agree that Round Trip needs a buff, but I think it should go up to 8 low durability, not 1 medium. That's an Arthur lance for free that causes lockdown.
8 durability is garbage. It needs 10 minimum. It has 35 frame startup and does almost nothing right now.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I agree that Round Trip needs a buff, but I think it should go up to 8 low durability, not 1 medium. That's an Arthur lance for free that causes lockdown.
This is acceptable, I can stretch to 10 durability points as well.
It seems like her s.L is a little too slow to me.
5 frame standing L with good hit box, chainable and is +2 on block?

4 frame would make the st.L Wolverine tier.
 
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";73009801]Why are you buffing flight on both of those characters? Flight mode isn't an issue for either, and you shouldn't buff them just to add parity with the rest of the cast.


8 durability is garbage. It needs 10 minimum. It has 35 frame startup and does almost nothing right now.[/QUOTE]
8 durability will plow through Soul Fist and hit Morrigan. 10 means it will negate beam assists and keep going. I think 8 is the right number to balance the idea out.

Trish spends half of her time in flight mode; I want flight buffed in general for most characters. I think the only characters I didn't buff flight on are Morrigan and Dormammu. Morrigan, because...that would absurd. And Dormammu because his flight should be a little unsafe considering what he uses it for.
 

Dahbomb

Member
Trish spending most of her time in flight mode is probably the reason why it shouldn't be too good to begin with. Many characters already struggle against her big time.

I am wary of this dash cancelable dive kick and better j.S. This would make people dive kick in with her and then go for cross up j.S. I get why a dash cancelable dive kick is needed, she definitely has problems with confirms but I really don't know about this solution.
 
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