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Usage Based Billing approved, Canadian govt shoots it down, more developments to come

lawl, a question from Conrad von Finckenstein.


the moderator is not putting up any of my questions about the nature of bandwidth.
 
http://www.visioncritical.com/publi...ject-usage-based-billing-for-internet-access/

In the online survey of a representative national sample of 1,024 Canadian adults, three-in-four respondents (76%) disagree with the recent decision from the Canada Radio-television Telecommunications Commission (CRTC), which recently ruled that Internet service providers should adopt “usage-based billing”.

Under this structure, Internet users would be charged an additional fee if they download more than a pre-established amount of data from the Internet.

The level of “strong disagreement” with the proposed course of action is above the 50 per cent mark in every region of the country (from a high of 74% in Ontario to a low of 52% in Quebec), across both genders (69% for men, 59% for women), and all three main age groups (62% for respondents aged 18 to 34, 68% for those aged 25 to 54, and 59% for those over the age of 55).
 
Not specific to the internet ruling, but this is so horrible news. Bring in all the foreign competitors. I would rather have an open market, then to be gouged by Canadian monopolies. Fuck the 'old boys' club.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...y-cabinets-globalive-decision/article1895099/

A judge has struck down the Harper cabinet’s 2009 decision to overrule the CRTC and let a cell carrier with Egyptian ties operate in Canada.

“That decision was based on errors of law and must be quashed,” Mr. Justice Roger Hughes of Federal Court wrote on Friday.

He put in place a 45-day stay of judgment in order to avoid chaos and give the carrier, Globalive, a chance to go back to the federal telecom regulator. This means Globalive can keep operating for now.

The decision comes one day after the Conservatives signalled they would overturn another CRTC decision, on Internet billing.

It leaves Wind Mobile hanging.

"I've got another fight on my hands," said Globalive chairman Anthony Lacavera, which now runs Wind Mobile. "We're disappointed. We're assessing our options and we will fight it vigorously."

Mr. Lacavera stressed that this would not result in Globalive's Wind Mobile being shut down, simply that it would require another round of wrangling with the regulator over how much foreign influence is acceptable in a Canadian telecommunications company. He added that it throws more uncertainty at an already opaque issue.

The court case raises profound questions in Ottawa: How much power do Stephen Harper and his cabinet really have – and are there any limits to it?

Over the past five years, Mr. Harper's government has acquired a reputation for overriding the opinions of federal watchdogs and experts – from Statistics Canada on the need for a long-form census to the Parliamentary Budget Officer on whether Ottawa has a structural deficit.

In many cases, the federal cabinet has broad discretion to act, as legal rulings have recognized, on “matters of public convenience and general policy” – but in the case of telecom, its mandate and manoeuvrability are governed by the Telecommunications Act.

Public Mobile, like other telecom firms, was upset the Harper government appeared to have changed the rules of the game even after the CRTC had balked at the fact that the Egyptian company, Orascom Telecom Holding, had put up most of the money for the Globalive venture. Carriers felt this was unfair to other firms that had stayed within foreign ownership rules.

The last time cabinet power on telecom was examined by the courts, the decision effectively shaped the legal view of cabinet authority for a generation. In 1980, a Supreme Court ruling on the Inuit Tapirisat's challenge of a cabinet decision on Bell Canada's rate structure effectively gave cabinet more blanket authority.

In January, Hudson Janisch, a University of Victoria expert in regulatory law who helped revise the Telecommunications Act in 1993, called this case is “a long overdue challenge” to the Inuit Tapirisat ruling and the expansive interpretation the government's lawyers have adopted. “I would argue Inuit has been overtaken by time. We don't like the idea now of these very broad unchecked powers.”

Prof. Janisch said over the last three decades administrative law has grown more sophisticated, and a good argument can be made for “much more checks and balances ... on the exercise of power.”

The Telecommunications Act gives cabinet the power to change or rescind CRTC decisions, but Public Mobile argued this “cannot be used arbitrarily or in manner that is inconsistent with the express terms of the legislation from which [cabinet's] power derives, or with the legislation's purpose and intent.”

Lawyers for Ottawa had argued cabinet's power under the legislation is largely unbounded. “The Supreme Court has affirmed that the power exercised by [cabinet] under section 12 ... is virtually unbounded,” the Attorney-General's office said in a submission to the Federal Court.
 
Yeah, but there's this too:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...orks-for-telecom-bernier-says/article1894874/

Asked by a Halifax radio station for his reaction to the Harper government’s move, Mr. Bernier said he believes Mr. Clement wants to bring in a bill to liberalize foreign investment legislation. “We need more competition, and the way to have more competition is to open foreign investment, foreign ownership in the telecom [industry] in Canada,” the Quebec MP told Maritime Morning with Jordi Morgan on station News 95.7.

“We don’t have that, and I think that Tony [Clement] wants to bring legislation before the Parliament, and I hope he’ll do that as soon as possible.”

The only hitch, of course, is that foreign investment restrictions are a politically-sensitive topic and the Conservatives would likely be loath to proceed on this on the eve of a possible spring election.

Mr. Clement’s office said the minister, not Mr. Bernier, is the point man for foreign investment in telecom.

“As you know, Minister Clement speaks for the government on these issues. Should there be something to discuss, he will be the one to do so,” press secretary Heather Hume said.

The Harper government pledged to liberalize foreign investment rules for telecom firms in its February Throne Speech – and Mr. Clement launched consultations on this in June 2010.

Last November, Mr. Clement announced he was postponing a decision on easing restrictions on ownership of telecommunications companies by non-Canadians until some undefined point in 2011 or 2012. He said at the time he would delay any decision on the matter until he resolves how to design the next auction of wireless frequencies for mobile phone companies – a sale not scheduled to take place until late 2012.

The delay buries a possible lightning rod for criticism in advance of an expected 2011 federal election, ensuring the Conservatives don't head to the polls facing partisan accusations of selling out Canadian companies.

While prior to the Globalive announcement, Clement would want to postpone controversial legislation 'til after an election, now he might be in a rush to get it done now.

I can't believe I'm in favour of Conservative policy... I am still to read the leftist argument against foreign investment, though. I'd like to see that so I'm sure we're not missing something big, like Canada losing jobs or capital etc etc
 
somuchwater said:
Yeah, but there's this too:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...orks-for-telecom-bernier-says/article1894874/



While prior to the Globalive announcement, Clement would want to postpone controversial legislation 'til after an election, now he might be in a rush to get it done now.

I can't believe I'm in favour of Conservative policy... I am still to read the leftist argument against foreign investment, though. I'd like to see that so I'm sure we're not missing something big, like Canada losing jobs or capital etc etc

If only these Canadian companies didn't out source huge portions of work in the first place. How Canadian.

Bhell won't be able to break down the court room doors fast enough now to challenge any government ruling that quashes UBB. Fucking fantastic.
 
Grrrrrr

I am getting more and more angry

How come every dipshit in Canada wants to destroy our already bad telecom sector?

Wind was our strongest chance at a fair fight - bullshit all fucking bullshit

I'm going to break things
 
how do I watch Power and Politics live on CBC.ca? Can't find the fucking specifc link. I wanna see if they're gong to talk about this Global Live thing.
 
i'm watching these cbc videos on this, my problem is that you have all these political experts talking about this issue, they're not getting/understanding the technical side of things, which is the root of the problem
none of them knows, and they're heavily sending false information to the mass of canadians
 
Anony said:
i'm watching these cbc videos on this, my problem is that you have all these political experts talking about this issue, they're not getting/understanding the technical side of things, which is the root of the problem
none of them knows, and they're heavily sending false information to the mass of canadians
Yeah, I've been saying this the whole time. No one is taking the time to understand the technical issues. If you realized a simple concept that bandwidth is a measure and not a depleteable resource (although it has a limit!) then pro-UBB people wouldn't have a leg to stand on. The way they're arguing is fine if the year were 1800 and we didn't have technology to worry about.

Zombie James said:
Thanks. Didn't check the news tab.
 
My question to the liberals,

Dear CRTC,

Take the following situation. Bell currently offers a $5, 40 gigabyte over-your-cap insurance plan. That is about 12.5 cents per gigabyte. Their regular "over limit" charge is $2 per gigabyte.

So how can they offer a package that is over SIX times less in cost than their regular overage charge? How in any logical way does this make sense?

At Bell's $5 for 40 gigabyte pricing, 200 gigabytes (as found on the smaller competitors) would equal only $25 in costs.

So why does Bell (and thus the CRTC) feel the need to force the smaller companies to drastically reduce their limits and overcharge their customers?

Bell continues to tell the CRTC, and thus the government, that bandwidth is expensive. Even by Bell's standards - it is not.
 
CEO of WIND Mobile is going on Power & Politics soon (CBC news). It's actually a good show. I may watch it now when I get the chance.
 
typo said:
During the recent hearings CRTC Chairman Konrad von Finckenstein showed a poor understanding of the internet from a technological point of view. Any information the Chairman had was sourced from Bell who have an interest in extracting as much profit from consumers as possible and tying Canadians to their integrated corporate for all entertainment, journalism, and communication.

Why has the CRTC not presented information sourced from independent experts who understand bandwidth use, traffic congestion, and infrastructure development?

Canada's future in technology should be guided by technological realities.


edit:I love reading something and finding a mistake AFTER its submitted.
 
Presco said:
I made the switch last night. Moving from Fibe TV and Internet (I'll miss Fibe TV) to TekSavvy and Shaw Digital.

If anyone wants the hook up for a crazy TV deal from Shaw, let me know by pm.
Is this the $41 deal?

Ugh. Ontario sucks. In BC and AB you can get Internet + Phone + TV for $40 a month on Shaw and Telus as new customers (or informed old customers!) :(
 
Firestorm said:
Is this the $41 deal?

Ugh. Ontario sucks. In BC and AB you can get Internet + Phone + TV for $40 a month on Shaw and Telus as new customers (or informed old customers!) :(
At first I thought living in the GTA we were paying too much in comparison to Americans. Now I find out you guys get all three of those services for less than the cost of one of ours here in the GTA? Fml.
 
enzo_gt said:
At first I thought living in the GTA we were paying too much in comparison to Americans. Now I find out you guys get all three of those services for less than the cost of one of ours here in the GTA? Fml.
And Telus is 15 - 25 mbits with no bandwidth limit too. And the TV is HD.

:(

faust said:
So you'd rather they compare it to the UBB model of the 407 which to my knowledge doesn't offer an "all you can drive" package? ;)
I don't know how the 407 works. What have I done D:
*watches there be a driving limit*
 
UBB is bad and I'm glad it's getting its ass kicked, but I also hope the rogers/bell/telus oligopoly is maintained as I am a shareholder :(
 
Fatghost said:
UBB is bad and I'm glad it's getting its ass kicked, but I also hope the rogers/bell/telus oligopoly is maintained as I am a shareholder :(

I'm trying to psychically explode your head over the internet right now. Fair warning.
 
Sinatar said:
I'm trying to psychically explode your head over the internet right now. Fair warning.

You just reached your bandwidth cap, are you willing to pay the extra fee to continue trying to blow his head?
 
Sinatar said:
I'm trying to psychically explode your head over the internet right now. Fair warning.
That made my day!
2m4qayq.jpg

So perfect an avatar for that as well
 
epmode said:
God bless America.

Oh wait.

American companies like AT&T, and Comcast might be evil, but at least they really compete. A number of industries up here are a complete joke, like telecoms, and airlines.
 
EvilMario said:
American companies like AT&T, and Comcast might be evil, but at least they really compete. A number of industries up here are a complete joke, like telecoms, and airlines.

I want higher dividends at advantaged tax rates. Is that so wrong?
 
EvilMario said:
American companies like AT&T, and Comcast might be evil, but at least they really compete. A number of industries up here are a complete joke, like telecoms, and airlines.

Our cable companies, which are the source of most people in America's broadband internet, are essentially monopolies. If you live in upper Manhattan, you either use Time Warner Cable or you get a dish. Those are your options. In my neighborhood, I can only get TWC if I want high speed internet.

So they can provide terrible customer service all they like, since there's really fuck all we can do.
 
Zombie James said:
Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a good bandwidth deposit? And then once you do find an area with a good concentration of gigabytes, you'll have to dig it out, refine it (only the purest gigabytes will do), and ship it. Some of you just don't get it.


LOL
 
YYZ said:
Yeah, I've been saying this the whole time. No one is taking the time to understand the technical issues. If you realized a simple concept that bandwidth is a measure and not a depleteable resource (although it has a limit!) then pro-UBB people wouldn't have a leg to stand on. The way they're arguing is fine if the year were 1800 and we didn't have technology to worry about.
I took 4 years to understand the technical issues, doing my degree in electrical engineering, with an emphasis on digital communications. I'm certainly not an expert, because I have no industry experience, but I should be able to understand any technical argument you make.

As I see things, there are good technical and economic merits to UBB. But whether it's UBB or unmetered, there need to be regulations in place that protect small ISPs from the big ones that own the physical lines.

I'm also annoyed by the inaccurate garbage that's thrown out there by people who should know better, but I want to point out that there are people who do understand the technical issues that don't necessarily agree with you on all counts.
 
typo said:
Mine:

The CRTC and the teleco's claim UBB as the only fair way to save the Internet, saying that heavy users have enjoyed some sort of free ride up to this point, but there are many other billing methods available. Speed-based billing, for example, has been the standard for years. I would ask, doesn't the current problem of Canada's crumbling Internet exist because the teleco's have been profiting by selling light users much greater speed packages than they actually needed? We are at the point where people using a mere 1% of the service that they paid for are being branded as abusers by the CRTC.

Also, if allowing the teleco's to unfairly exploit 90% of their customers didn't miraculously grow the Canadian Internet, how would exploiting the other 10% be any different?
 
ruby_onix said:
Mine:

The CRTC and the teleco's claim UBB as the only fair way to save the Internet, saying that heavy users have enjoyed some sort of free ride up to this point, but there are many other billing methods available. Speed-based billing, for example, has been the standard for years. I would ask, doesn't the current problem of Canada's crumbling Internet exist because the teleco's have been profiting by selling light users much greater speed packages than they actually needed? We are at the point where people using 1% of the service that they paid for are being branded as abusers by the CRTC.

Also, if allowing the teleco's to unfairly exploit 90% of their customers didn't miraculously grow the Canadian Internet, how would exploiting the other 10% be any different?


The subsidy argument has a point though. Most metered users are not using anywhere near their bandwidth cap, and it is subsidizing the handful of heavy users in the system.

As a heavy user, I naturally do not want to be charged more. It is against my economic interests and I was pretty happy to hear the government was going to overturn it.

But that's just being greedy. There's several really good reasons why this is purely politics, makes no economic reason from a pricing perspective, and the process itself is now in doubt.
 
Deku said:
The subsidy argument has a point though. Most metered users are not using anywhere near their bandwidth cap, and it is subsidizing the handful of heavy users in the system.

As a heavy user, I naturally do not want to be charged more. It is against my economic interests and I was pretty happy to hear the government was going to overturn it.

But that's just being greedy. There's several really good reasons why this is purely politics and the process itself is now in doubt.
How does it have a point? As far as I know, the UBB decision will not result in a decrease of the basic plans' prices. As a result, the implementation of UBB won't benefit any end user, light or heavy. The only winners here are (shocker) the big telcos.

Which is why I'm asking this...

"Considering the CRTC's argument that light bandwidth users are currently subsidizing the heavy users on flat-fee, unlimited plans, why doesn't the implementation of UBB lead to a decrease of the basic plans' cost for the "majority" that uses little bandwidth?"
 
ruby has a perfectly valid point.

At 50mbps, and a 175GB cap, Extreme users are offered less than 8 hours of bandwidth on their line.

Now, speed has a far greater impact on peak usage than bandwidth caps. Lower the speed to 25mbps, and double the cap to 350GB, and you have a far lower and predictable peak load. The lines will be used more often, but less saturated.
 
Deku said:
The subsidy argument has a point though. Most metered users are not using anywhere near their bandwidth cap, and it is subsidizing the handful of heavy users in the system.

As a heavy user, I naturally do not want to be charged more. It is against my economic interests and I was pretty happy to hear the government was going to overturn it.

But that's just being greedy. There's several really good reasons why this is purely politics, makes no economic reason from a pricing perspective, and the process itself is now in doubt.
The top 10% of the Internet already acts generally within their own reasonable bandwidth caps. The Internet isn't falling apart because of them.

90% of the Internet discovers Netflix. OHMYGOD! The hard drives are crashing at an alarming speed!

The problem isn't the top 10%, it's that the teleco's sold the lower 90% much more than they could handle. That money should've gone somewhere, but it didn't.

If you kicked the top 10% off the internet and divvied up the Internet juice amongst the survivors, and then the bottom 90% found Netflix, the Internet would still collapse.
 
TheRagnCajun said:
The petition is over 400,000. To think it was only at about 150k when the wheels started turning.
I'm from the US. Can I sign? Am I being ignorant in only reading the first three pages and the last two of this thread?
 
UraMallas said:
I'm from the US. Can I sign? Am I being ignorant in only reading the first three pages and the last two of this thread?


I believe you can't, the form asks for your ZIP Code, which I imagine has to be Canadian. And I think reading the first few pages then the last few gives you an idea of what is going on before and after the government got involved and what the next steps are.
 
Deku said:
The subsidy argument has a point though. Most metered users are not using anywhere near their bandwidth cap, and it is subsidizing the handful of heavy users in the system.

As a heavy user, I naturally do not want to be charged more. It is against my economic interests and I was pretty happy to hear the government was going to overturn it.

But that's just being greedy. There's several really good reasons why this is purely politics, makes no economic reason from a pricing perspective, and the process itself is now in doubt.

The subsidy argument would make sense if there was true usage based billing, ie. you only pay for what you use, but UBB is just a flat rate plan with a stupidly low cap and outrageously overpriced overage charges.

Telecoms would never just charge for the amount of bandwidth used, because using their own numbers, most people would only have to pay a couple dollars a month for their internet at fair market prices. Even the heaviest users would probably pay less than they pay now if they had access to bandwidth at market rates. The telecoms don't want that. they want to have their cake and eat it too by charging a flat fee for access to the line plus a ridiculous markup on bandwidth for anyone who actually uses their connection.

No one would argue if they charged per GB, even at a 2-3x markup from the cost of providing the service, but under the current plan they want the flat fee in addition to a 100x markup on the bandwidth which is just ridiculous.
 
Slavik81 said:
Maybe a bit. That would equate to maxing out only during the busiest hour of the year. However, I wouldn't want to see it drop below 99%, which would be roughly 3 and a half days per year.

Really, though, the number I chose was kind of arbitrary. It just existed to help illustrate the general point.

I know I'm super late on this, but you're way wrong on your arbitrary figures.

Think of highways. If they were built to handle rush hour they'd be as wide as the eye can see. And be a huge waste of space the rest of the day.

If you think networks are built to handle DAILY peaks you are in for disappointment. 3 days a year? It's much closer to 3 hours a day. (Peaks are daily events, not yearly).
 
Firestorm said:
Is this the $41 deal?

Ugh. Ontario sucks. In BC and AB you can get Internet + Phone + TV for $40 a month on Shaw and Telus as new customers (or informed old customers!) :(

That's the one...plus I was able to get the HDPVRs for $200 a piece. Ok, maybe not the craziest deal, but it's the best you can do in Ontario for TV. Comparable service on Rogers or Bell will be $60-70 and the HDPVRs will set you back a lot more. And there's no contract. I won't ever go back on a contract for TV or internet. As I said, I'm sad to leave the IPTV service with Bell but it became quite cost prohibitive.
 
Deku said:
The subsidy argument has a point though. Most metered users are not using anywhere near their bandwidth cap, and it is subsidizing the handful of heavy users in the system.

As a heavy user, I naturally do not want to be charged more. It is against my economic interests and I was pretty happy to hear the government was going to overturn it.

But that's just being greedy. There's several really good reasons why this is purely politics, makes no economic reason from a pricing perspective, and the process itself is now in doubt.
Ok. So Bell's decision was to keep charging the low users the same and the heavy users more. How does this help the low-usage user?
 
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