Support NeoGAF

[Xamtheking]

Valve has been very lethargic towards releasing rushed games

 

[Tyreese Victoria]

There's definitely been a bit of a lull in new game releases in the past couple of years, but they still release major updates for TF2, CSGO and Dota 2 all the time.

Half-Life 2: Episode Two (2007)
Portal (2007)
Team Fortress 2 (2007)
Left 4 Dead (2008) (published)
Left 4 Dead 2 (2009)
Alien Swarm (2010)
Portal 2 (2011)
Counter-Strike: Global Offensive (2012)
Dota 2 (2013)

So lethargic.

Agreed, didn't even realise they've just been updating three games for the last 3/4 years.

Very lethargic.

 

[HariKari]

Has it really though? There are consistent updates for all 3 of their major MP games (TF2, CSGO, DOTA). Never mind active Source 2 development and then all the R&D into Steam Machines, VR etc.

But, no new IP/game means sitting on hands.

Those games generate money for Valve via transactions/stores. Of note, none of those are original concepts by Valve. They've yet to return to the hyper polished single player stuff that they are capable of. It's disappointing, because there are few who can do it better.

 

[Doctor Robofinger]

Not at all what's happening in this thread. Take that shit elsewhere. I'm saying they don't actually MAKE things internally. Like no concept for a game is born in their walls. They hire people for their IP.

This sort of statement comes up a lot in conversations about Valve, and it illustrates a common misunderstanding about game development (and any other creative work, really).

While original ideas are important, they are absolutely worthless without the hard work of execution. If you compare the original Narbacular Drop demo to Portal, you see the difference between a good idea with a minimum level of functional execution and the same idea with the best execution in the industry.

The idea for a portal based puzzle game came
with the team they hired, but Portal the game was MADE by Valve.

 

[bobbytkc]

Still not entirely clear on what you're trying to say.

Because Valve pick up modders and students to work under them and develop games, that means those games aren't developed by Valve?

Valve picks up prospecting projects and teams to work and develop under them... and that makes them a part of Valve. In which, anything created while they're working for Valve... is considered "developed by Valve". Since, they themselves are a part of Valve at that point.

No it is very clear what he is trying to say.

Do you think a company like Valve's development is like, say, Naughty Dog. When Naughty dog wants to create a new IP like the last of us, their internal designers go to the drawing board and conceptualize and design a new game they want to make. Let us not trivialize this aspect of development. Do you think Valve does that? The past evidence suggests Valve rarely does so.

 

[Moon_frogger]

. Let's not forget that the people that made up the initial sparks for Portal and L4D went on to create Quantum Conundrum and Evolve without Valve's involvement

very good point. quantum conundrum was hot trash compared to portal. and evolve is good on paper but of course it didn't have that valve magic so yeah......

 

[rexor0717]

They put out Dota 2 so they're great in my book.

 

[Tyl3n0L85]

Precisely because of these? Valve may have just improved on concepts but the scale of the improvements should be taken into account. Take DOTA. Valve turned a free Warcraft 3 mod into the poster-child for esports. All Valve had in the beginning for Portal was a concept and a six puzzles and it turned into something much grander. Valve is like the fairy godmother for these titles which hold a lot of promise. And going back to HL, Half-Life 2 is something insane when you look at it in proper context. The physics puzzle, the fantastic gunplay, the sheer scope of some of the levels (The escape from City 17 using the hover boat is the best example of this), and the story. Even with something like Team Fortress 2, Valve managed to foster a community that has kept the game running for 8 WHOLE YEARS. For a multiplayer-only online FPS, that is practically unprecedented, not even mentioning that it's regularly supported with cosmetics, maps, weapons, balance changes, etc.

Getting back to your question, the reason I want Valve to make games is because every game Valve has made has been paradigm-shifting in some way. Every game they manage to make shows a vast expansion from a promising concept to a revolutionary game. Actually, not even games. Everything they've done to date has tried to advance PC gaming and gaming as a whole with disruptive ideas. I can wait for whatever Valve decides to put out next (I'm a fan of the Avalanches and Jai Paul, after all) because I have faith that Valve will never deliver a sub-par game. And even if they somehow do, their belief in the "games as a service" model shows they'll stick with it and listen to the community to make it the best.

Couldn't said better myself... Can't wait for HL3

 

[jambo]

No it is very clear what he is trying to say.

Do you think a company like Valve's development is like, say, Naughty Dog. When Naughty dog wants to create a new IP like the last of us, their internal designers go to the drawing board and conceptualize and design a new game they want to make. Let us not trivialize this aspect of development. Do you think Valve does that? The past evidence suggests Valve rarely does so.

Well they did that for Half-Life 2, Team Fortress 2, L4D2 and Portal 2.

Yes they're sequels, but outside of The Last of Us the only games coming from Naughty Dog are Uncahrted sequels.

Also HL2 and TF2 were fairly major shifts from the previous games, especially TF2. It may as well have been a new IP.

 

[Abilidebob]

No it is very clear what he is trying to say.

Do you think a company like Valve's development is like, say, Naughty Dog. When Naughty dog wants to create a new IP like the last of us, their internal designers go to the drawing board and conceptualize and design a new game they want to make. Let us not trivialize this aspect of development. Do you think Valve does that? The past evidence suggests Valve rarely does so.

You really, actually think that Valve didn't had their internal designers think about how to develop a game they "got from somewhere else"?
Again, you think that DOTA 2 didn't go through all common development steps until it was released?Or CS:GO after Valve took over? Or Portal?
Saying that someone didn't develop a game because the initial idea came from the outside is really offensive to actual developers.

 

[DrBo42]

This sort of statement comes up a lot in conversations about Valve, and it illustrates a common misunderstanding about game development (and any other creative work, really).

While original ideas are important, they are absolutely worthless without the hard work of execution. If you compare the original Narbacular Drop demo to Portal, you see the difference between a good idea with a minimum level of functional execution and the same idea with the best execution in the industry.

The idea for a portal based puzzle game came
with the team they hired, but Portal the game was MADE by Valve.

Yeah, I already said this. The main point is that Valve as we knew them or as we know a developer or studio to be, doesn't exist. Yes, insanely talented people work there and take bought concepts to realization and I have to assume, make it better than originally drawn up.

I think my main point is that the Valve we knew, the collective of people that created the concept for Half-Life is gone. They don't come together to create something of their own anymore, they're problem solvers now. They enrich what they're given, they don't necessarily create from the ground up. The original question of "Why do we keep hoping for games from this studio?" is all about that issue. It just doesn't seem like we're going to get another "real" Valve game. I'm not the greatest at articulating what I'm trying to say but hopefully you get the idea.

Edit: Usually people create games etc because they have something to say or an inner concept they need to get out. Valve hasn't had anything to say in years.

 

[213372bu]

Between L4D3, which we know is consistently under work, working on Vive projects, updating their games, working on Source 2 etc. they have been doing a lot of shit lately.

You'll get games post-Vive or at launch, until then, don't expect anything more than working on the projects they have been wanting to work on for years that aren't fully realized yet.

 

[Omikron]

Yeah, I already said this. The main point is that Valve as we knew them or as we know a developer or studio to be, doesn't exist. Yes, insanely talented people work there and take bought concepts to realization and I have to assume, make it better than originally drawn up.

I think my main point is that the Valve we knew, the collective of people that created the concept for Half-Life is gone. They don't come together to create something of their own anymore, they're problem solvers now. They enrich what they're given, they don't necessarily create from the ground up. The original question of "Why do we keep hoping for games from this studio?" is all about that issue. It just doesn't seem like we're going to get another "real" Valve game. I'm not the greatest at articulating what I'm trying to say but hopefully you get the idea.

Edit: Usually people create games etc because they have something to say. Valve hasn't had anything to say in years.

I find this interesting.

 

[DrBo42]

I find this interesting.

Because you disagree or what? Clearly tons of people in here disagree with me but that's the fun of a discussion board.

 

[bounchfx]

you guys are hilarious

just because HL3 or L4D3 aren't out yet doesn't mean they aren't making games, you just choose to ignore the games they do make because they might not fit your preference (aka mostly focused on multiplayer games now, though we'll see if they have anything in store for Vive)

Spoiler

and because they don't pump out shit as fast or as often as EA/Ubi/etc - they are one developer and not a publisher with 10 studios under their command

that's like me bitching at blizzard for not making games anymore because the last death and return of superman was on snes

plus the fact that, yeah, they are a service provider now and are involved in many other aspects of the gaming world, but they still have a very strong and dedicated dev team as far as I'm aware.

 

[Bishop89]

Cause they own the best single and multiplayer fps's of all time (half life 1 and cs 1.6)

No other studio could really say the same

 

[Abilidebob]

It just doesn't seem like we're going to get another "real" Valve game.

I kinda get what you're saying, but how are any of these games Valve is still supporting not "real Valve games"?
L4D3 is known to be in active development and pretty much everyone expect it to be Valve's next game.
Is L4D3 a "real Valve game" for you? Why isn't DOTA 2? Or CS:GO? Only IPs that started at Valve are important enough?

Edit: Usually people create games etc because they have something to say or an inner concept they need to get out. Valve hasn't had anything to say in years.

CS:GO was Valve saying that you could take one of the oldest FPS franchises in existence and make it into one of most fun and competitive shooter in gaming, while not alienating old players.
DOTA 2 was Valve saying that you could do a F2P game that didn't had P2W elements and still make shittons of profit, while, again, not alienating old players.

I still can't get your point, honestly.

 

[Omikron]

Because you disagree or what? Clearly tons of people in here disagree with me but that's the fun of a discussion board.

I disagree based on the things Valve are trying to promote and I can't be bothered arguing things on a discussion board. This thread topic comes up every couple months.

 

[Tyl3n0L85]

Yeah, I already said this. The main point is that Valve as we knew them or as we know a developer or studio to be, doesn't exist. Yes, insanely talented people work there and take bought concepts to realization and I have to assume, make it better than originally drawn up.

I think my main point is that the Valve we knew, the collective of people that created the concept for Half-Life is gone. They don't come together to create something of their own anymore, they're problem solvers now. They enrich what they're given, they don't necessarily create from the ground up. The original question of "Why do we keep hoping for games from this studio?" is all about that issue. It just doesn't seem like we're going to get another "real" Valve game. I'm not the greatest at articulating what I'm trying to say but hopefully you get the idea.

Edit: Usually people create games etc because they have something to say or an inner concept they need to get out. Valve hasn't had anything to say in years.

 

[jambo]

It just doesn't seem like we're going to get another "real" Valve game. I'm not the greatest at articulating what I'm trying to say but hopefully you get the idea.

Edit: Usually people create games etc because they have something to say or an inner concept they need to get out. Valve hasn't had anything to say in years.

What does this even mean?!

Do you really think that when Valve hires some mod developers or someone like IceFrog, that there is just a fully completed design doc just ready to go? Concepts and fully realised ideas already completed that mindless Valve developers then just pump out for 2 years?

Do you have any idea of how game development works?!

 

[Schweinehund]

because their game are good

Feels like they make games because they want to bring something new to the table that will have impact and create a sustaining money source. I think Gabe said they'd make half life 3 once they had a good idea for it, as in something that will bring games forward as a whole. I'm sure their next game will showcase Source 2, like HL2 & CS Demoed source.

I wouldn't mind a TF3 to compete with Overwatch. We know L4D3 is being worked on at the least.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

"Something to say"? How about "here are two titles we believe will change the world in regards to games being considered competitive sports"? Make no mistake, Dota and CS would be niche games today without the masterful design and push by Valve. Just because YOU don't care about this doesn't mean they have nothing to say.

 

[Comrade Crunch]

Yeah, I already said this. The main point is that Valve as we knew them or as we know a developer or studio to be, doesn't exist. Yes, insanely talented people work there and take bought concepts to realization and I have to assume, make it better than originally drawn up.

I think my main point is that the Valve we knew, the collective of people that created the concept for Half-Life is gone. They don't come together to create something of their own anymore, they're problem solvers now. They enrich what they're given, they don't necessarily create from the ground up. The original question of "Why do we keep hoping for games from this studio?" is all about that issue. It just doesn't seem like we're going to get another "real" Valve game. I'm not the greatest at articulating what I'm trying to say but hopefully you get the idea.

Edit: Usually people create games etc because they have something to say or an inner concept they need to get out. Valve hasn't had anything to say in years.

But what is a "real" Valve game? Most of what they've made now is based on ideas of people they've brought in. If anything Half-Life is the outlier and everything else they've made could be considered "real" Valve games.

I also thoroughly disagree with your edit, Valve has had plenty to say, they've changed the way people see e-sports, changed the way in-game marketplaces work, embraced VR and showed us their vision for it with the Vive. Just because an idea isn't completely new, or is borrowed, doesn't mean someone has nothing to offer.

 

[DrBo42]

I kinda get what you're saying, but how are any of these games Valve is still supporting not "real Valve games"?
L4D3 is known to be in active development and pretty much everyone expect it to be Valve's next game.
Is L4D3 a "real Valve game" for you? Why isn't DOTA 2? Or CS:GO? Only IPs that started at Valve are important enough?

I'm not trying to discredit the amazing output they have. People love the shit out of those games. I'm just trying to make the distinction of something that's more of a passion project compared to acquired properties and sequels and failing to articulate it. Not to say the people behind those games don't have a passion to make them. See what I mean about articulation?

I disagree based on the things Valve are trying to promote and I can't be bothered arguing things on a discussion board. This thread topic comes up every couple months.

I understand the frustration from the HL3 topics but I wasn't aware this exact thing had been discussed before. Doesn't have to be an argument, I posted the thread to see what people think and how others view the company. <3

 

[jambo]

Just because an idea isn't completely new, or is borrowed, doesn't mean someone has nothing to offer.

Most of the time getting there first doesn't matter, it's getting it right that leaves a mark.

 

[TyrantGuardian]

Dota 2 is literally the definition of a passion project.

Also hey I guess Blizzard has never made a game either. Warcraft is just Dune 2 with a Warhammer copyright violation waiting to happen, WoW is a re-skinned Everquest and Overwatch is a TF2 clone. Fresh ideas are all that matter!

 

[paragonpro]

Correction, valve still Makes games, just not single player ones

 

[wanderingprostheyltite]

Yeah, I already said this. The main point is that Valve as we knew them or as we know a developer or studio to be, doesn't exist. Yes, insanely talented people work there and take bought concepts to realization and I have to assume, make it better than originally drawn up.

I think my main point is that the Valve we knew, the collective of people that created the concept for Half-Life is gone. They don't come together to create something of their own anymore, they're problem solvers now. They enrich what they're given, they don't necessarily create from the ground up. The original question of "Why do we keep hoping for games from this studio?" is all about that issue. It just doesn't seem like we're going to get another "real" Valve game. I'm not the greatest at articulating what I'm trying to say but hopefully you get the idea.

Edit: Usually people create games etc because they have something to say or an inner concept they need to get out. Valve hasn't had anything to say in years.

This is absolute bull when taking into account the engineering r&d they've been doing for years now in VR. I guess you can say "but not games!" but so what? Their vision does not need to be limited to software and content delivery (Steam).

My guess is you haven't been following the work they've been doing in that field. They have also developed several demos from the ground up to demonstrate room scale VR, and have a game coming out within the next several months as a launch title for it. I'm aware however those not interested in the tech seem to think these endeavors don't count for much though.

 

[Comrade Crunch]

Most of the time getting there first doesn't matter, it's getting it right that leaves a mark.

Exactly, it's why Valve is such a juggernaut, they get it so, so right.

 

[jambo]

Dota 2 is literally the definition of a passion project.

Exactly. The only reason Dota 2 exists is because of a bunch of Valve devs getting hooked on the original mod and then contacting IceFrog because they so badly wanted to make a new one.

 

[DrBo42]

This is absolute bull when taking into account the engineering r&d they've been doing for years now in VR. I guess you can say "but not games!" but so what? Their vision does need to be limited to software and content delivery (Steam).

My guess is you haven't been following the work they've been doing in that field. They have also developed several demos from the ground up to demonstrate room scale VR, and have a game coming out within the next several months as a launch title for it. I'm aware however those not interested in the tech seem to think these endeavors don't count for much though.

No, that's good. That's an angle I didn't think of. That's the whole point of creating a thread here outside of OT's or "I hate this" etc, getting a different view. I think you're absolutely right on championing VR, eSports and content delivery.

 

[Abilidebob]

I'm not trying to discredit the amazing output they have. People love the shit out of those games. I'm just trying to make the distinction of something that's more of a passion project compared to acquired properties and sequels and failing to articulate it. Not to say the people behind those games don't have a passion to make them. See what I mean about articulation?

More of a passion project? Seriously, what do you mean? If a game didn't had its roots, its seeds created inside Valve then they didn't enjoy it just as much?
Gabe said that the things they start working on are based on what they like.
He noticed that a bunch of people absolutely loved to play DotA in the office. He got Icefrog and developed DOTA 2. You're saying those people didn't had immense passion for the game, because it came from the "outside"?

Again, I'm seriously missing your point.

 

[gatti-man]

Stop using steam And stop buying hats/fluff for their games. It's the only way valve will get motivated to actually make more games and not F2P stuff. They are a company so they will go where the money is.

 

[water_wendi]

Dota 2 is literally the definition of a passion project.

Dota 2 is like the complete opposite of passion project. League of Legends takes off making big bucks? Hire the Dota guy to make a version for Steam!

 

[DrBo42]

More of a passion project? Seriously, what do you mean? If a game didn't had its roots, its seeds created inside Valve then they didn't enjoy it just as much?
Gabe said that the things they start working on are based on what they like.
He noticed that a bunch of people absolutely loved to play DotA in the office. He got Icefrog and developed DOTA 2. You're saying those people didn't had immense passion for the game, because it came from the "outside"?

Again, I'm seriously missing your point.

I'm not sure. Playing a game and saying "Man, I like this game. Let's make it." is different to me than saying "This is something I thought of and would love to play. What do you think?" then eventually making that.

 

[texhnolyze]

I personally don't really care about Valve games.
They don't make RPGs anyway.

 

[The Hermit]

to be honest, I just want to know what the hell happened to a mute physicist, his girlfriend and the world.

After that I don't really care

 

[Comrade Crunch]

I'm not sure. Playing a game and saying "Man, I like this game. Let's make it." is different to me than saying "This is something I thought of and would love to play. What do you think?" then eventually making that.

In Valves case, it's more like "I like this game, we can do it better, and I don't care how long it take to do so." I feel the flaw in your logic is that you're saying something has to be your own idea to make you passionate about it, but that simply isn't true.

Just take a look at the rise of Kickstarter, we see tons of games from people who are ridiculously huge fans of a franchise and want to make an entry of their own, using the pillars that made that franchise great in the first place. Would you not call those passion projects?

 

[Abilidebob]

I'm not sure. Playing a game and saying "Man, I like this game. Let's make it." is different to me than saying "This is something I thought of and would love to play. What do you think?" then eventually making that.

You know, I had a talk with a friend just a month ago about game development.
He said that I wasn't really a game developer because, in his words

You just make what other people/company tells you to. If someone asks you what GAME you made what are you going to answer?Nothing, because you didn't make the game.

It seems to me that you're following his line of thought, to an extent. Like, "a game can only be REALLY appreciated by a developer if he/she thought of it from the beginning."

Something like that is completely bonkers for me, and I sincerely can't understand it. It undermines the work and passion of a legion of game developers.

 

[DrBo42]

In Valves case, it's more like "I like this game, we can do it better, and I don't care how long it take to do so." I feel the flaw in your logic is that you're saying something has to be your own idea to make you passionate about it, but that simply isn't true.

Just take a look at the rise of Kickstarter, we see tons of games from people who are ridiculously passionate fans of a franchise and want to make an entry of their own, using the pillars that made that franchise great in the first place. Would you not call those passion projects?

I think that's absolutely valid. Reviving something long dead and making it your own can absolutely be a passion, but that's ultimately a double edged sword depending on delivery (which of course Valve has an amazing track record for). I mean hell, I play huge amounts of Elite: Dangerous which is a revival of a game from 1984.

Edit: I'll say that as an artist working on something you pitched that got accepted compared to working on something that landed in your lap feels immensely different. You can be passionate regardless but it's different.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Romanticizing idea genesis as the most important part of game development is incredibly disrespectful to a lot of game developers, not just Valve.

 

[DrBo42]

Romanticizing idea genesis as the most important part of game development is incredibly disrespectful to a lot of game developers, not just Valve.

Eh. Games are nothing without talented programmers or artists spending years and sacrificing their personal lives or watching their kids grow up to make it happen. It's the same between film and games. Not what I'm trying to convey.

 

[maniac-kun]

Because Valve releases great games and hasn't released a single bad game in their existence. Doesn't matter if the people making them didn't start off working at Valve; Valve gives em the resources and support to release something amazing.

Nobody remebers Ricochet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricochet_(2000_video_game)

 

[Abilidebob]

Edit: I'll say that as an artist working on something you pitched that got accepted compared to working on something that landed in your lap feels immensely different. You can be passionate regardless but it's different.

Imagine you spent 2 years working only on "things that landed on your lap". You've made a bunch of things and worked a lot to finish them.

Now imagine someone said to you

Hey why aren't you doing anything? You spent 2 years doing absolutely nothing, I don't know why I'm still waiting to see something you did. What? These things? That's not your REAL work, just something that landed on your lap.

Wouldn't you feel at least a little disrespected?
I know I would.

 

[gdt]

This internal/external/they don't make games argument drives me insane.

 

[Atomski]

Like Blizzard they play it safe until they make sure the project is going to be a hit.
I rather see these companies keep supporting their current titles instead of releasing yearly mediocre sequels.

I think this is where Valve gets a lot of misunderstanding. I think they just have a way different game making philosophy than most.

They make there games to last. Where as most big developers are trying to push out as many titles as they can as fast as they can and not supporting their past titles after just a year.

Valve would rather develop a game with the infrastructure to last years while also still bringing them a steady income.

PC gamers love this.. I think console gamers it just is strange because they are always waiting for that next hyped game in a month. So we get these threads whining that Valvee not making games..

 

[Crono27]

Nobody remebers Ricochet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricochet_(2000_video_game)

Trust me i remember it... Sadly no one remembers day of defeat ]=

 

[DrBo42]

Imagine you spent 2 years working only on "things that landed on your lap". You've made a bunch of things and worked a lot to finish them.

Now imagine someone said to you


Wouldn't you feel at least a little disrespected?
I know I would.

Yeah I would, but that's a caricature of what's being said.

 

[Abilidebob]

Yeah I would, but that's a caricature of what's being said.

Is it? I think it's actually way tamer than having people downplaying what they made over and over and over again, over years and years, without stopping.

I mean, this thread is just one thread from thousands of other threads/comments/tweets from people that, little by little, undermine their hard work because they aren't working on X instead of Y.

 

[RobNBanks]

Edit: Usually people create games etc because they have something to say or an inner concept they need to get out. Valve hasn't had anything to say in years.

people make games because they need money.