• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Venezuela has a higher homicide rate than a) Mexico b) Iraq

Status
Not open for further replies.

Deku

Banned
c) A and B.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/23/world/americas/23venez.html?pagewanted=1&ref=americas

CARACAS, Venezuela — Some here joke that they might be safer if they lived in Baghdad. The numbers bear them out.

In Iraq, a country with about the same population as Venezuela, there were 4,644 civilian deaths from violence in 2009, according to Iraq Body Count; in Venezuela that year, the number of murders climbed above 16,000.

Even Mexico’s infamous drug war has claimed fewer lives.


Venezuelans have absorbed such grim statistics for years. Those with means have hidden their homes behind walls and hired foreign security experts to advise them on how to avoid kidnappings and killings. And rich and poor alike have resigned themselves to living with a murder rate that the opposition says remains low on the list of the government’s priorities.

Then a front-page photograph in a leading independent newspaper — and the government’s reaction — shocked the nation, and rekindled public debate over violent crime.

The photo in the paper, El Nacional, is unquestionably gory. It shows a dozen homicide victims strewn about the city’s largest morgue, just a sample of an unusually anarchic two-day stretch in this already perilous place.

While many Venezuelans saw the picture as a sober reminder of their vulnerability and a chance to effect change, the government took a different stand.

A court ordered the paper to stop publishing images of violence, as if that would quiet growing questions about why the government — despite proclaiming a revolution that heralds socialist values — has been unable to close the dangerous gap between rich and poor and make the country’s streets safer.

“Forget the hundreds of children who die from stray bullets, or the kids who go through the horror of seeing their parents or older siblings killed before their eyes,” said Teodoro Petkoff, the editor of another newspaper here, mocking the court’s decision in a front-page editorial. “Their problem is the photograph.”

Venezuela is struggling with a decade-long surge in homicides, with about 118,541 since President Hugo Chávez took office in 1999, according to the Venezuelan Violence Observatory, a group that compiles figures based on police files. (The government has stopped publicly releasing its own detailed homicide statistics, but has not disputed the group’s numbers, and news reports citing unreleased government figures suggest human rights groups may actually be undercounting murders).

There have been 43,792 homicides in Venezuela since 2007, according to the violence observatory, compared with about 28,000 deaths from drug-related violence in Mexico since that country’s assault on cartels began in late 2006.

Caracas itself is almost unrivaled among large cities in the Americas for its homicide rate, which currently stands at around 200 per 100,000 inhabitants, according to Roberto Briceño-León, the sociologist at the Central University of Venezuela who directs the violence observatory.

That compares with recent measures of 22.7 per 100,000 people in Bogotá, Colombia’s capital, and 14 per 100,000 in São Paulo, Brazil’s largest city. As Mr. Chávez’s government often points out, Venezuela’s crime problem did not emerge overnight, and the concern over murders preceded his rise to power.

But scholars here describe the climb in homicides in the past decade as unprecedented in Venezuelan history; the number of homicides last year was more than three times higher than when Mr. Chávez was elected in 1998.

Reasons for the surge are complex and varied, experts say. While many Latin American economies are growing fast, Venezuela’s has continued to shrink. The gap between rich and poor remains wide, despite spending on anti-poverty programs, fueling resentment. Adding to that, the nation is awash in millions of illegal firearms.

Police salaries remain low, sapping motivation. And in a country with the highest inflation rate in the hemisphere, more than 30 percent a year, some officers have turned to supplementing their incomes with crimes like kidnappings.

But some crime specialists say another factor has to be considered: Mr. Chávez’s government itself. The judicial system has grown increasingly politicized, losing independent judges and aligning itself more closely with Mr. Chávez’s political movement. Many experienced state employees have had to leave public service, or even the country.

More than 90 percent of murders go unsolved, without a single arrest, Mr. Briceño-León said. But cases against Mr. Chavez’s critics — including judges, dissident generals and media executives — are increasingly common.

Henrique Capriles, the governor of Miranda, a state encompassing parts of Caracas, told reporters last week that Mr. Chávez had worsened the homicide problem by cutting money for state and city governments led by political opponents and then removing thousands of guns from their police forces after losing regional elections.

But the government says it is trying to address the problem. It recently created a security force, the Bolivarian National Police, and a new Experimental Security University where police recruits get training from advisers from Cuba and Nicaragua, two allies that have historically maintained murder rates among Latin America’s lowest.

The national police’s overriding priority, said Víctor Díaz, a senior official on the force and an administrator at the new university, is “unrestricted respect for human rights.”

I’m not saying we’ll be weak,” he said, “but the idea is to use dialogue and dissuasion as methods of verbal control when approaching problems.”

Senior officials in Mr. Chávez’s government say the deployment of the national police, whose ranks number fewer than 2,500, has succeeded in reducing homicides in at least one violent area of Caracas where they began patrolling this year.

Still, human rights groups suggest the new policing efforts have been far too timid. Incosec, a research group here that focuses on security issues, counted 5,962 homicides in just 10 of Venezuela’s 23 states in the first half of this year.

Meanwhile, the debate over the morgue photograph published by El Nacional is intensifying, evolving into a broader discussion over the government’s efforts to clamp down on the news outlets it does not control.

The government says the photograph was meant to undermine it, not to inform the public. The authorities are also threatening an inquiry into “Rotten Town,” a video by a Venezuelan reggae singer that shows an innocent child struck down by a stray bullet. For all the government’s protests, the video has spread rapidly across the Internet since its release here this month.

Given the government’s stance in these cases, many here worry it is focusing on the messenger, not the underlying message.

Hector Olivares, 47, waited outside the morgue early one morning this month to recover the body of his son, also named Hector, 21. He said his son was at a party in the slum of El Cercado, on the outskirts of Caracas, when a gunman opened fire.

Mr. Olivares said Hector was the second son he had lost in a senseless murder, after another son was killed four years ago at the age of 22. He said he did not blame Mr. Chávez for the killings, but he pleaded with the president to make combating crime a higher priority.

“We elected him to crack down on the problems we face,” he said. “But there’s no control of criminals on the street, no control of anything.”
 
Typical media bias against Chavez. I'm surprised that GAF is so critical of him with all the great things he's done for Venezuela. I mean, where else in the world can you find a ban on that putrid thing known as Coke Zero?
 
Teh Hamburglar said:
So what should we, as concerned GAFers, do about this?

We should donate all the opossums they can get to stop the war. Because with opossums around, they would be scared shitless to fight or do anything for that matter.
 

Zozz

Banned
It's really fucking bad down there. People are being murdered left and right for the silliest shit. I still have family and friends there and it's not a pretty sight. Recently a girl was robbed in the middle of the street, as they took her phone they sliced her throat. People just watched her bleed out. The pictures I was sent were not pretty. I'm saddened that my country is going down so much.
 

Drkirby

Corporate Apologist
Teh Hamburglar said:
So what should we, as concerned GAFers, do about this?
We must raise the Homicide rate in our home nations, to make Venezuela's rate look better.

*Rereads* God damn thats a terable joke.
 
I like how the story is followed by the anti-Chavez propaganda in the second half of the article. Anyway, Chavez needs to start changing things even faster (someone could argue that the changes he has promised are progressing pretty fucking slow). Poverty brings crime and last I checked the gap between the rich and poor remains pretty huge there. On the other hand if Chavez tried to bring the changes faster the western corporate media would portray him as a dictator so there's no way to win with the dipshits.
 

Jeff-DSA

Member
fortified_concept said:
I like how the story is followed by the anti-Chavez propaganda in the second half of the article. Anyway, Chavez needs to start changing things even faster (someone could argue that the changes he has promised are progressing pretty fucking slow). Poverty brings crime and last I checked the gap between the rich and poor remains pretty huge there. On the other hand if Chavez tried to bring the changes faster the western corporate media would portray him as a dictator so there's no way to win with the dipshits.

Anti-Chavez propaganda? You don't think his "progress" just speaks for itself? Come on...
 

Celsior

Member
fortified_concept said:
I like how the story is followed by the anti-Chavez propaganda in the second half of the article. Anyway, Chavez needs to start changing things even faster (someone could argue that the changes he has promised are progressing pretty fucking slow). Poverty brings crime and last I checked the gap between the rich and poor remains pretty huge there. On the other hand if Chavez tried to bring the changes faster the western corporate media would portray him as a dictator so there's no way to win with the dipshits.

Maybe you can move there so they can here you speak about you awesome liberal ideas and they stop killing each other.
 
Chavez is so off-the-rails. It is sad to see things fall apart down there.

I think he generally means well, but his policies are a failure. The guy needs to step aside and let someone else take over for a while. There is no confidence in his leadership & policies. Just buying poor people off with social programs is not good governance. Nor is being reflexively anti-USA a good policy.
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
chavez+bird.jpg
 

Socreges

Banned
Ciudad Juarez is worse than Caracas and El Salvador is worse than Venezuela. Just to flesh out the picture.

The numbers with respect to Venezuela itself (i.e., compared to the 90s) are incredible, though. I also would have expected Bogotá to be a lot worse.

Evlar said:
Interesting use of bolding in the OP
Hah. I noticed that, too.
 
Jeff-DSA said:
Anti-Chavez propaganda? You don't think his "progress" just speaks for itself? Come on...

Yes, anti-Chavez propaganda. My observation is that many of the measures Chavez has promised still haven't realized and the gap between rich a poor -the actual reason he was voted to bring changes in the first place- remains huge. On the other hand the western corporate media are feeding their readers the same bullshit and implications of dictatorial governing as per usual purposely confusing political systems like socialism with dictatorship and authoritarianism. The reason Chavez hasn't made these changes is because he's not governing like a dictator, on the contrary. For example it took him 5 years iirc to close the TV station that was aiding and spreading propaganda during the coup d'etat against him. No matter the reason though it's becoming annoying, he has to step up his game.

And for the record, half of the anti-Chavez articles turn out to be spinning facts and numbers to the point they are completely false. We'll see about this one.
 
pick one:

a) this is a clear indictment of leftist politics because it's happening in a country run by a leftist

OR

b) this cannot be true because it's happening in a country run by a leftist and nothing bad can happen in a country run by a leftist
 

Zenith

Banned
fortified_concept said:
I like how the story is followed by the anti-Chavez propaganda in the second half of the article. Anyway, Chavez needs to start changing things even faster (someone could argue that the changes he has promised are progressing pretty fucking slow). Poverty brings crime and last I checked the gap between the rich and poor remains pretty huge there. On the other hand if Chavez tried to bring the changes faster the western corporate media would portray him as a dictator so there's no way to win with the dipshits.

Seriously? Still pretending Chavez isn't an out-to-lunch egomaniacal dictator like so many of his compatriots were?
 
fortified_concept said:
Yes, anti-Chavez propaganda. My observation is that many of the measures Chavez has promised still haven't realized and the gap between rich a poor -the actual reason he was voted to bring changes in the first place- remains huge. On the other hand the western corporate media are feeding their readers the same bullshit and implications of dictatorial governing as per usual purposely confusing terms like socialism with dictatorship and authoritarianism. The reason Chavez hasn't made these changes is because he's not governing like that, on the contrary. For example it took him 5 years iirc to close the TV station that was aiding and spreading propaganda during the coup d'etat against him. No matter the reason though it's becoming annoying, he has to step up his game.

And for the record, half of the anti-Chavez articles turn out to be spinning facts and numbers to the point they are completely false. We'll see about this one.


Still, one has to wonder if he can actually follow through with his plans. I mean, plans are plans, but if Venezuela's economy keeps shrinking...
Well you can't get blood from a stone.
 

Deku

Banned
I don't hide my disdain for Chavez. I bolded parts the explain or at least attempt to explain why the country has such a high homicide rate. Otherwise, the entire article is there, it hasn't been edited by me nor have I bolded things out of context.

There's also a sub-text which I hoped people would catch, which is the Chavez controlled courts getting all uppity and trying to silence the press for publishing a shocking photo of one of the recent murdering sprees. Hallmark of autotractic regimes wanting to control the press and to only reveal 'good news' to placate the masses.

I suppose I could bold the the paragraph where the bought voter said he didn't blame Chavez even after both his sons were shot and killed. Dedication.

If you find issue with the bolding, I suppose the problem is you.
 
fortified_concept said:
I like how the story is followed by the anti-Chavez propaganda in the second half of the article. Anyway, Chavez needs to start changing things even faster (someone could argue that the changes he has promised are progressing pretty fucking slow). Poverty brings crime and last I checked the gap between the rich and poor remains pretty huge there. On the other hand if Chavez tried to bring the changes faster the western corporate media would portray him as a dictator so there's no way to win with the dipshits.
The problem has gotten worse since chavez, specifically because the country has gone to the shitter economically since he took power.

Glad I left when I did. Fuera Chavez.
 
Inflammable Slinky said:
Still, one has to wonder if he can actually follow through with his plans. I mean, plans are plans, but if Venezuela's economy keeps shrinking...
Well you can't get blood from a stone.

Most countries' economies are shrinking, is there even a reason mentioning it in that "article"? And let's not forget that the reason the worldwide economy is collapsing is not Chavez but the few capitalist pigs that control it. The thing with Venezuela is that there's plenty of "blood in that stone", and there lies Chavez's problem. He has promised a lot to the poor that he hasn't done yet and it's starting to get frustrating.
 

SUPREME1

Banned
fortified_concept said:
Yes, anti-Chavez propaganda. My observation is that many of the measures Chavez has promised still haven't realized and the gap between rich a poor -the actual reason he was voted to bring changes in the first place- remains huge. On the other hand the western corporate media are feeding their readers the same bullshit and implications of dictatorial governing as per usual purposely confusing political systems like socialism with dictatorship and authoritarianism. The reason Chavez hasn't made these changes is because he's not governing like a dictator, on the contrary. For example it took him 5 years iirc to close the TV station that was aiding and spreading propaganda during the coup d'etat against him. No matter the reason though it's becoming annoying, he has to step up his game.

And for the record, half of the anti-Chavez articles turn out to be spinning facts and numbers to the point they are completely false. We'll see about this one.



Oh you...

:lol
 

mantidor

Member
Socreges said:
The numbers with respect to Venezuela itself (i.e., compared to the 90s) are incredible, though. I also would have expected Bogotá to be a lot worse.


I've lived my whole life in Bogota and the roughest times were the 80s and early 90s. From there Bogota become actually really safe, with homicide rates lower than even Washington. Then we let the left took the mayor office again and things have gone worse, not as bad as Caracas fortunately.

The left is complete crap in Latinamerica, but it's power of propaganda in the developed countries is huge, and then we have to stand the apologists. One might think that facts should speak louder than words, but no matter how much evidence there is they will ignore it. I always find amusing how they somehow know better about our own countries than ourselves.
 
fortified_concept said:
Yes, anti-Chavez propaganda. My observation is that many of the measures Chavez has promised still haven't realized and the gap between rich a poor -the actual reason he was voted to bring changes in the first place- remains huge. On the other hand the western corporate media are feeding their readers the same bullshit and implications of dictatorial governing as per usual purposely confusing political systems like socialism with dictatorship and authoritarianism. The reason Chavez hasn't made these changes is because he's not governing like a dictator, on the contrary. For example it took him 5 years iirc to close the TV station that was aiding and spreading propaganda during the coup d'etat against him. No matter the reason though it's becoming annoying, he has to step up his game.

And for the record, half of the anti-Chavez articles turn out to be spinning facts and numbers to the point they are completely false. We'll see about this one.
So he shut down critical media, stifling free speech, but it's cool because it took him a while to do so?

increible
 
It is anti-chavez propaganda because the murder rate before he came to power was also sky high.


Has he solved the problem?

No.

Has he made it worse?

No.


And since when is it the presidents job to stop local crime? Thats the job of the police.

I don't remember Obama being blamed when a pizza delivery man nearby was killed last week and robbed of his money.


Can you blame chavez for the media control? Absolutely, but thats a whole other issue.
 

delirium

Member
elrechazao said:
So he shut down critical media, stifling free speech, but it's cool because it took him a while to do so?

increible
No man, he just shut down those companies that were sponsored by the CIA man. Venezuela is a bastion of freedom. Don't let the American propaganda fool you. It's all an American plot to overthrow a democratically elected leader.
 
elrechazao said:
So he shut down critical media, stifling free speech, but it's cool because it took him a while to do so?

increible

"Critical media" as in the media that were spreading bullshit that Chavez "resigned" because he felt guilty because of the shooting during the demonstrations of the opposing party while a coup d'etat was happening in Venezuela? The same "critical media" that had ties to the dipshits that had planned and executed the coup?

If anyone doesn't believe me there's tons of footage of that "critical media" during the coup d'etat on the internet.
 

Ulairi

Banned
fortified_concept said:
Critical media as in the media that were spreading bullshit that Chavez "resigned" because he felt guilty because of the shooting during the demonstrations of the opposing party while a coup d'etat was happening in Venezuela? The same "critical media" that had ties to the dipshits that had planned and executed the coup?

Has Chavez done anything wrong since he's been in power?
 
fortified_concept said:
Critical media as in the media that were spreading bullshit that Chavez "resigned" because he felt guilty because of the shooting during the demonstrations of the opposing party while a coup d'etat was happening in Venezuela? The same "critical media" that had ties to the dipshits that had planned and executed the coup?
ok bro.

no vale la pena man.
 

mre

Golden Domers are chickenshit!!
jamesinclair said:
It is anti-chavez propaganda because the murder rate before he came to power was also sky high.


Has he solved the problem?

No.

Has he made it worse?

No.


And since when is it the presidents job to stop local crime? Thats the job of the police.

I don't remember Obama being blamed when a pizza delivery man nearby was killed last week and robbed of his money.


Can you blame chavez for the media control? Absolutely, but thats a whole other issue.

Taking the article for face value it does state this:

Henrique Capriles, the governor of Miranda, a state encompassing parts of Caracas, told reporters last week that Mr. Chávez had worsened the homicide problem by cutting money for state and city governments led by political opponents and then removing thousands of guns from their police forces after losing regional elections.

But the government says it is trying to address the problem. It recently created a security force, the Bolivarian National Police, and a new Experimental Security University where police recruits get training from advisers from Cuba and Nicaragua, two allies that have historically maintained murder rates among Latin America’s lowest.

The national police’s overriding priority, said Víctor Díaz, a senior official on the force and an administrator at the new university, is “unrestricted respect for human rights.”

I’m not saying we’ll be weak,” he said, “but the idea is to use dialogue and dissuasion as methods of verbal control when approaching problems.”

Senior officials in Mr. Chávez’s government say the deployment of the national police, whose ranks number fewer than 2,500, has succeeded in reducing homicides in at least one violent area of Caracas where they began patrolling this year.

Still, human rights groups suggest the new policing efforts have been far too timid. Incosec, a research group here that focuses on security issues, counted 5,962 homicides in just 10 of Venezuela’s 23 states in the first half of this year.

I included the subsequent paragraphs which were more favorable to Chavez's government. But, damn, when a human rights group thinks your police force is "too timid" you're really not trying hard enough. :lol
 

delirium

Member
jamesinclair said:
It is anti-chavez propaganda because the murder rate before he came to power was also sky high.


Has he solved the problem?

No.

Has he made it worse?

No.


And since when is it the presidents job to stop local crime? Thats the job of the police.

I don't remember Obama being blamed when a pizza delivery man nearby was killed last week and robbed of his money.


Can you blame chavez for the media control? Absolutely, but thats a whole other issue.

http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/what-they-arent-seeing-in-venezuela/

The murder rate tripled under Hugo's leadership.
 

Socreges

Banned
Deku said:
I don't hide my disdain for Chavez.

...

If you find issue with the bolding, I suppose the problem is you.
Buh?

fortified_concept said:
And let's not forget that the reason the worldwide economy is collapsing is not Chavez but the few capitalist pigs that control it.
I'm no fan of capitalism, but what the hell are you talking about? People are talking about the Venezuelan economy, not the worldwide one. Are you really attempting to absolve Chavez of blame for the failures of his country?

fortified_concept said:
And for the record, half of the anti-Chavez articles turn out to be spinning facts and numbers to the point they are completely false. We'll see about this one.
Find out who's behind the OVV, a Venezuelan NGO.

mantidor said:
I've lived my whole life in Bogota and the roughest times were the 80s and early 90s. From there Bogota become actually really safe, with homicide rates lower than even Washington. Then we let the left took the mayor office again and things have gone worse, not as bad as Caracas fortunately.
Err, wasn't Antonus Mockus responsible for a lot of the improvements in Bogotá?
 
Ulairi said:
Has Chavez done anything wrong since he's been in power?
Not suppressed enough media, not allied closely enough with FARC, not destroyed the country's infrastructure enough, not destroyed the economy enough and hasn't imposed enough forced rationing, blackouts, and other wonderful things.

If this were the 1930s fortified would be complaining about all of the negative coverage stalin's getting when he's just trying to get things done. Of course he has to put all those dissenters in the gulag!

good lord
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom