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[Evlar]

Surely you see the flaws in that logic. Think a bit about various expatriate communities throughout the ages, and what they might have said about the countries they were fleeing. Dismissing them just because they're expats is as asinine as accepting everything they say as gospel.

I'm not dismissing them just because they're expats. In fact, I agree with your last sentence precisely. I only dispute their neutrality, assuming their expatriation was politically motivated. There is necessarily a personal element to their convictions about their homeland.

I really, really don't want to presume what political views motivate the Venezuelan expatriate communities- I really don't know anything about that.

 

[goomba]

Bring back a US puppet Venezuela dictator amirite?

 

[empty vessel]

Oh, so he's lying because it doesn't fit your narrative. This just gets better and better.

No, he's not lying. He may, like many Americans I know, have distorted perceptions of his own social status within Venezuela. Or Funky Papa may not be accounting for the differences between developed and developing nations when assessing his friend's class in his native country. Or his friend very well could be an exception to the rule. But the fact remains that a transcontinental plane ticket costs a shit load of money to a Venezuelan living in poverty within that country, and his friend had to get from point A to point B somehow.

 

[elrechazado]

Bring back a US puppet Venezuela dictator amirite?

Who would that be?

 

[Fun Factor]

CARACAS, Venezuela — Some here joke that they might be safer if they lived in Baghdad. The numbers bear them out.

I don't know if it's been posted....

Many US Cities Have Had Murder Rates Higher Than Iraq's 2006 'Violent Death' Rate

I guess it's safer to live in Baghdad than the U.S.

Dumbshit anti-Chavez propaganda fails again.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

I don't know if it's been posted....

Many US Cities Have Had Murder Rates Higher Than Iraq's 2006 'Violent Death' Rate

Dumbshit anti-Chavez propaganda fails again.

That's a joke link right? Seriously did Zaphages tech you how to source stuff? :lol

You do know how Mexicans get into the country right? :lol

True, but what about:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boat_people

 

[elrechazado]

No, he's not lying. He may, like many Americans I know, have distorted perceptions of his own social status within Venezuela. Or Funky Papa may not be accounting for the differences between developed and developing nations when assessing his friend's class in his native country. Or his friend very well could be an exception to the rule. But the fact remains that a transcontinental plane ticket costs a shit load of money to a Venezuelan living in poverty within that country.

Ok, so he's stupid and been fooled by all of the bourgeois expat venezuelans who pretend to be not rich because it doesn't fit your narrative.

I don't know if it's been posted....

Many US Cities Have Had Murder Rates Higher Than Iraq's 2006 'Violent Death' Rate

Dumbshit anti-Chavez propaganda fails again.

Did you actually read the article and see the numbers being discussed? What kind of person are you if you think that's an acceptable murder rate?

 

[Zozz]

Holy shit you guys act like Venezuela is Sudan or Somalia.

 

[empty vessel]

Ok, so he's stupid and been fooled by all of the bourgeois expat venezuelans who pretend to be not rich because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Feel free to address what was actually said. (Is there something in the air?)

 

[Pimpwerx]

Maybe you can move there so they can here you speak about you awesome liberal ideas and they stop killing each other.

I got family in Curacao, who travel to Venezuela often. It's not that bad. Like most of that part of the world, you're fine if you know where you're not an idiot. PEACE.

 

[avatar299]

Holy shit you guys act like Venezuela is Sudan or Somalia.

No we don't. Nice try

 

[empty vessel]

Holy shit you guys act like Venezuela is Sudan or Somalia.

Poverty looks the same pretty much everywhere, albeit worse and more pervasive in developing countries. I work with poor people in the US, and I've pretty much assumed (favorably to Venezuela, in my opinion) something similar to that when discussing the Venezuelan poor. None of the American poor I have interacted with, for example, have ever considered immigrating to, say, Canada, let alone Europe (where at least they would get health care). Indeed, as far as I can tell, emigration out of the country is not remotely an option for them.

 

[Zozz]

Luckily my family didn't struggle immensely in Venezuela, we were better off than most. The reality of the poor was in our backyard, down the street. We didn't live the life but I know my parents worked hard to escape it. My father was abandoned (Mother passed away and Father forgot him) as a child and grew up as harsh life with his grandfather in Ecuador. My mother had no parents they both died when she was young, I barely know a thing about her past life. We've moved to America but it has come with a price that took my parents a lot of time and effort to better the lives of the family.

It was a struggle for them, and I learned about a part of Venezuela that is gone for who knows how long. It used to be a tranquil place overall really, the bad parts will and have always been full of crime.

It's spread all over, it's become such an easy thing to commit a crime and profitable. I could go to a liquor store in a small town, take everything, kill and rape anyone I want and I would be confident that nothing is going to happen to me. People have lost respect in one another and forget that we're all human beings. No remorse for individual lives, it's heartbreaking for me. I've never lived in a country ridden by war but hearing about the things that happen to people I know or family, this place feels like a warzone. I could go on but I don't want to make this a livejournal.

 

[Masta_Killah]

You do know how Mexicans get into the country right? :lol

I don't get it. I was answering this-

Poor Venezuelans typically don't have the resources to emigrate anywhere.

If shits bad in your country, you'll make the effort of going to a better place. It happened in the 80's when all those wars started going around in central america. It's happening now with people from Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, etc. trekking to the US for a better life.

 

[Fun Factor]

Ok, so he's stupid and been fooled by all of the bourgeois expat venezuelans who pretend to be not rich because it doesn't fit your narrative.



Did you actually read the article and see the numbers being discussed? What kind of person are you if you think that's an acceptable murder rate?

It's not about it being acceptable, it's about sensationalist journalism. The article somehow equates the President being responsible for the homicide rates of Caracas, it's like saying every President is somehow responsible for the high homicide rate in Washington D.C.

The way it tries to shoehorn that it's safer to live in Baghdad, like that is a benchmark in murder, even though statistically the murder rate in Iraq was lower than in the U.S & apparently many other countries.

 

[empty vessel]

If shits bad in your country, you'll make the effort of going to a better place. It happened in the 80's when all those wars started going around in central america. It's happening now with people from Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, etc. trekking to the US for a better life.

And yet, there's still a ton of poor people in those countries. You'd think there wouldn't be any at all if your assertion were true. There is a pretty large and obvious difference between traveling by foot or hitching various rides to furtively enter a neighboring wealthy country with porous borders and legally immigrating somewhere by plane.

 

[elrechazado]

It's not about it being acceptable, it's about sensationalist journalism. The article somehow equates the President being responsible for the homicide rates of Caracas, it's like saying every President is somehow responsible for the high homicide rate in Washington D.C.

The way it tries to shoehorn that it's safer to live in Baghdad, like that is a benchmark in murder, even though statistically the murder rate in Iraq was lower than in the U.S & apparently many other countries.

If you had any education on the direct control chavez has over the police for example, you'd realize you're wrong. President of the US or Prime minister of GB isn't the same as Chavez, and claiming that chavez has nothing to do with this based on your experience in the US or whatever you're drawing on just shows your ignorance.

 

[Zozz]

You essentially have to have ambition and desire to leave. This is not the truth for everyone. I know a variety of illegal immigrants that have come from being homeless, dirt poor or rich to essentially switching social roles in America.

There are so many other considerations when you want to classify people for reasons why they don't immigrate. There are just far too many factor besides having no wealth that play these roles.

 

[empty vessel]

You essentially have to have ambition and desire to leave. This is not the truth for everyone. I know a variety of illegal immigrants that have come from being homeless, dirt poor or rich to essentially switching social roles in America.

There are so many other considerations when you want to classify people for reasons why they don't immigrate. There are just far too many factor besides having no wealth that play these roles.

I agree that it's not black and white and I agree there are exceptions. But we know that the overwhelming majority of poor people stay where they are born. If this weren't the case, we would see so much migration that the very idea of nation states would no longer even make sense. Also, the fact remains that legal immigration, at least to the US, tends to be quite expensive (and restricted).

 

[Piano]

It blows my mind that there are Chavez apologists. Makes sense though - his supporters seem to be just as in denial as he is.

One of my favorite clips - notice how he doesn't answer most of the questions, and instead attacks the integrity of the person questioning him. Sort of like...this thread.

 

[Dresden]

It blows my mind that there are Chavez apologists. Makes sense though - his supporters seem to be just as in denial as he is.

One of my favorite clips - notice how he doesn't answer most of the questions, and instead attacks the integrity of the person questioning him. Sort of like...this thread.

Spoken like a non-Venezuelan. You clearly don't understand what's going on in that country; you speak English.

 

[empty vessel]

It blows my mind that there are Chavez apologists. Makes sense though - his supporters seem to be just as in denial as he is.

One of my favorite clips - notice how he doesn't answer most of the questions, and instead attacks the integrity of the person questioning him. Sort of like...this thread.

http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_60549.shtml
http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5433?page=6

Spoken like a non-Venezuelan. You clearly don't understand what's going on in that country; you speak English.

The fumes must be terrible in here.

 

[Warm Machine]

Can you imagine how nice South America would be to live if it had a society, infrastructure, police force, and government like North America. It would be the richest continent on the planet.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Politics has to be the most obnoxious topic to ever exist.

 

[Narag]

Politics has to be the most obnoxious topic to ever exist.

Religion.

 

[SpeedySwaf]

Generally both of them are something you don't want to discuss too often.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Religion.

No. While religion threads are shit (personally I'd put them at #2), they are limited to pretty much the same exact arguments on each side to the point that you actually get used to them (similar to the Mac vs PC threads which I personally rank as #3). But Politics not only contains the same tired arguments, but tons of new bullshit that constantly comes everyday. Not to mention the topics within it are practically endless: people in the office, war, racism, sexism, where money should be placed in society, society in general, etc..

It's a topic on a completely different level of shittiness with all the personal matters involved.

This reminds me that I was going to create a post on Facebook stating the top 10 topics that annoy me. Better get cracking, may post it on GAF but fear backlash.

 

[Piano]

http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_60549.shtml
http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5433?page=6

I never said the reporter's questions weren't inflammatory. But that doesn't change the fact that Chavez dodges the issue of the suspicious legal trouble his opponents sometimes wander their way into for five straight minutes.

It's not a huge 'crackdown' like the hyperbole in the quoted article in the second link state, but Chavez's slow crawl of swaying the 'democracy' (judges, media, politics, etc) towards his power while blaming Venezuela's problems on capitalism blah-de-blah makes the legitimacy of the democracy dubious.

 

[Branduil]

Poor Chavez, everyone is out to get him. If you don't agree with me, you're part of the problem.

 

[Deku]

The article is there to point out Chavez's failures in policy. Because his policy has been a combination of

1) vote buying by siphoning wealth to the poor (this was easy to do when the cash was rolling in when oil was near $200 a barrel)
2) nationalizing industries and thus temporarily enriching the state, at a whim.
3) Rhetorical opposition to anything the United States does and taking over property, industries, and companies owned by US firms.

This is in addition to
4) intimidating political opponents
5) Turning the bureaucracy of government into his own apparatus to exact revenge on his political opponents
6) Relying solely on petro dollars to fund his grand schemes.

Of course, while he's doing this, capital is fleeing Venezuela, the infrastructure is crumbling (remember the power outages earlier this year? -- he blamed someone else for that too)

These facts are not disputed. Many Chavez supporters don't mind US companies getting kicked out, or 'capitalist' collaborators being run out of the country. They don't mind the wealthy being put in the place, living in constant fear of Chavez. They don't mind TV stations being shut down because Chavez doesn't like how it is against him.

The Chavez 'apologists' in this thread pretty much behaves like a typical Chavez crony. You note that they're not really defending his policy, which are indefensible.

His socialism has even failed to bring any kind of equity to Venezuelan society, and the sky high crime and homicide rate is a direct symptom of that.

So what do we have in this thread

1) The usual 'well the US is just as bad' pointing out reams of hand picked inner city statistics in crime ridden urban areas during the decay of the 80s and early 90s. With no rhyme or reason.
2) Claim that the New York Times piece is 'propaganda'. What exactly makes it propaganda, we're never told. Just because...
3) Rally around Hugo Chavez as the maligned and misunderstood leader of a great country.

And you begin to see the kind of defense that might have been erected for Joseph Stalin had GAF existed in the 1950s as Khrushchev finally broke ranks and revealed Stalin's crimes to the world. Certainly, even at the time, many in the left refused to believe it.

 

[cvxfreak]

A Japanese friend's dad works at the Venezuelan branch of a major Japanese company, so my friend visits his parents and siblings there twice a year. Actually, he was born in Venezuela and still possesses citizenship there. I do worry about him when he goes since he's only 19 years old.

 

[SlipperySlope]

Most countries' economies are shrinking, is there even a reason mentioning it in that "article"? And let's not forget that the reason the worldwide economy is collapsing is not Chavez but the few capitalist pigs that control it. The thing with Venezuela is that there's plenty of "blood in that stone", and there lies Chavez's problem. He has promised a lot to the poor that he hasn't done yet and it's starting to get frustrating.

Have you actually compared the economy of Venezuela before Chavez took power, and today?

I'm sorry, but it's more than "the world wide economy is in the shitter!" that's causing their problems. Look into it.

 

[SlipperySlope]

It's Fortified. You guys should know better by now. :lol

I'm starting to think he's a troll.

 

[WorriedCitizen]

Socialist dictatorship fails badly once again. History repeats itself.

 

[iamaustrian]

you think that is bad?
Our suicide rate is double as high as our road accident fatalities :/

 

[Kurtofan]

you think that is bad?
Our suicide rate is double as high as our road accident fatalities :/

I prefer a high suicide rate than a high murder rate.

 

[iamaustrian]

I prefer a high suicide rate than a high murder rate.

but not if it is that high.
we are 8.2 millions.
400.000 are highly depressed.
15.000 try to commit suicide every year

 

[empty vessel]

The article is there to point out Chavez's failures in policy. Because his policy has been a combination of

1) vote buying by siphoning wealth to the poor (this was easy to do when the cash was rolling in when oil was near $200 a barrel)
2) nationalizing industries and thus temporarily enriching the state, at a whim.
3) Rhetorical opposition to anything the United States does and taking over property, industries, and companies owned by US firms.

This is in addition to
4) intimidating political opponents
5) Turning the bureaucracy of government into his own apparatus to exact revenge on his political opponents
6) Relying solely on petro dollars to fund his grand schemes.

Of course, while he's doing this, capital is fleeing Venezuela, the infrastructure is crumbling (remember the power outages earlier this year? -- he blamed someone else for that too)

These facts are not disputed. Many Chavez supporters don't mind US companies getting kicked out, or 'capitalist' collaborators being run out of the country. They don't mind the wealthy being put in the place, living in constant fear of Chavez. They don't mind TV stations being shut down because Chavez doesn't like how it is against him.

The Chavez 'apologists' in this thread pretty much behaves like a typical Chavez crony. You note that they're not really defending his policy, which are indefensible.

His socialism has even failed to bring any kind of equity to Venezuelan society, and the sky high crime and homicide rate is a direct symptom of that.

It appears you have read too many issues of the Economist. You've basically recited propaganda point after propaganda point without a hint that you know anything substantive about Venezuela or the policies its current government has pursued over the last decade. (Evidence was even provided in this very thread that rebuts the tired Western trope that the Venezuelan government shuts down media it doesn't like--the same private media, mind you, that played a leading collaborative role in a military coup of a popular, elected government.)

As for the Venezuelan government's policies and their effect on Venezuela, I'll leave you with some actual analysis, in the vain hope it might wean you from dependence on the stream of vague, unsupported allegations made by Western elites whose main desire is to see the Venezuelan government's "good example" fail.

*The current economic expansion began when the government got control over the national oil company in the first quarter of 2003. Since then, real (inflation-adjusted) GDP has nearly doubled, growing by 94.7 percent in 5.25 years, or 13.5 percent annually.
*Most of this growth has been in the nonoil sector of the economy, and the private sector has grown faster than the public sector.
*During the current economic expansion, the poverty rate has been cut by more than half, from 54 percent of households in the first half of 2003 to 26 percent at the end of 2008. Extreme poverty has fallen even more, by 72 percent. These poverty rates measure only cash income, and does take into account increased access to health care or education.
*Over the entire decade, the percentage of households in poverty has been reduced by 39 percent, and extreme poverty by more than half.
*Inequality, as measured by the Gini index, has also fallen substantially. The index has fallen to 41 in 2008, from 48.1 in 2003 and 47 in 1999. This represents a large reduction in inequality.
*Real (inflation-adjusted) social spending per person more than tripled from 1998-2006.
*From 1998-2006, infant mortality has fallen by more than one-third. The number of primary care physicians in the public sector increased 12-fold from 1999-2007, providing health care to millions of Venezuelans who previously did not have access.
*There have been substantial gains in education, especially higher education, where gross enrollment rates more than doubled from 1999/2000 to 2007/2008.
*The labor market also improved substantially over the last decade, with unemployment dropping from 11.3 percent to 7.8 percent. During the current expansion it has fallen by more than half. Other labor market indicators also show substantial gains.
*Over the past decade, the number of social security beneficiaries has more than doubled.
*Over the decade, the government's total public debt has fallen from 30.7 to 14.3 percent of GDP. The foreign public debt has fallen even more, from 25.6 to 9.8 percent of GDP.
*Inflation is about where it was 10 years ago, ending the year at 31.4 percent. However it has been falling over the last half year (as measured by three-month averages) and is likely to continue declining this year in the face of strong deflationary pressures worldwide.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/indicators

These are some of the reasons that the current Venezuelan government has been popular amongst the majority of Venezuelans.

Socialist dictatorship fails badly once again. History repeats itself.

Generating statements like this is precisely the goal of the Western propaganda campaign (of which Deku is a part) against the, ahem, democratically elected Venezuelan government.

 

[SmokyDave]

Man, the Far Left is just as crazy as the Far Right.

 

[Celsior]

Man, the Far Left is just as crazy as the Far Right.

You just learning this now:lol :lol

 

[badcrumble]

1) vote buying by siphoning wealth to the poor

hahaha calling this "vote buying" is one of the more hateful things I've read on GAF

 

[empty vessel]

hahaha calling this "vote buying" is one of the more hateful things I've read on GAF

He's an extremist, what do you expect? He fundamentally opposes equitable distributions of wealth, which is why he refers to such attempts in terms that allude to theft or criminal activity.

 

[JGS]

Regardless of political views of Chavez, his policy for his particular country appears to stink. He and his government don't appear to have the skill or experience necessary to carry out his policies. He has alienated other nations and businesses that could help him gain the experience. He is so inept that he really has no clue how to end massive homicide rates in his country when the solution seems easy enough.

I have no idea why people who even champion socialism would even remotely prop up Chavez when he is clearly a failure- even if he is a failure with good intentions. So maybe I've been blinded by propaganda, but what has Chavez done to actually make things better beyond his speeches indicating his way is better?

The majority of a poor population liking him for giving them free to low cost stuff at the expense of a sound economic model is not my definition of success, but I'd certainly appreciate some education on the matter.

 

[Niks]

I like Chavez, good comedian that fellow.
His performances on ALO presidente, always manage to bring laughter out of me.

Ive always wondered how much money he gives out to people who attend these rallies just to clap?

 

[badcrumble]

Regardless of political views of Chavez, his policy for his particular country appears to stink. He and his government don't appear to have the skill or experience necessary to carry out his policies. He has alienated other nations and businesses that could help him gain the experience. He is so inept that he really has no clue how to end massive homicide rates in his country when the solution seems easy enough.

I have no idea why people who even champion socialism would even remotely prop up Chavez when he is clearly a failure- even if he is a failure with good intentions. So maybe I've been blinded by propaganda, but what has Chavez done to actually make things better beyond his speeches indicating his way is better?

The majority of a poor population liking him for giving them free to low cost stuff at the expense of a sound economic model is not my definition of success, but I'd certainly appreciate some education on the matter.

I think Chavez's economic stewardship is somewhat incompetent and tend to prefer Evo Morales by far when it comes to governing his own country; Chavez's work with the OAS and the dream of a sudo/centroamerican federation of center-left states is something I support, though. He's not an essential ingredient for such a thing but he's done a great amount of work to promote the idea.

 

[empty vessel]

I have no idea why people who even champion socialism would even remotely prop up Chavez when he is clearly a failure- even if he is a failure with good intentions. So maybe I've been blinded by propaganda, but what has Chavez done to actually make things better beyond his speeches indicating his way is better?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23231636&postcount=189

The current global economic downturn has undoubtedly negatively affected Venezuela's economy, but that is hardly either unique to Venezuela or something that its current government is responsible for.

 

[JGS]

I think Chavez's economic stewardship is somewhat incompetent and tend to prefer Evo Morales by far when it comes to governing his own country; Chavez's work with the OAS and the dream of a sudo/centroamerican federation of center-left states is something I support, though. He's not an essential ingredient for such a thing but he's done a great amount of work to promote the idea.

That's kind of the way I see it. He would make a great campaign/PR person as a lot of people buy into what he's selling (Greedy capitalist pig here although I understand the appeal of socialism), but his implementation of them appears to be less than desired.

Unless he gets the ability to actually unite that federation, he stinks as a real leader. Complaining that capitalists don't respect his views is a "Duh" policy imo. It causes them to point out his many failures. He should just tout his views and get the help he needs to accomplish them in steps and not whole hog. He may find that he gets help from the people he rails against- especially with oil involved.

 

[Zenith]

You've basically recited propaganda point after propaganda point without a hint that you know anything substantive about Venezuela or the policies its current government has pursued over the last decade.

You got any evidence to back up this repeated claim? Labelling something as propaganda doesn't make it so. There's a ton of bad news coming out of Venezuela and all you do is harp on about that tv channel he shut down.

 

[empty vessel]

You got any evidence to back up this repeated claim? Labelling something as propaganda doesn't make it so. There's a ton of bad news coming out of Venezuela and all you do is harp on about that tv channel he shut down.

Deku has not provided a single specific allegation against the Venezuelan government that is subject to empirical investigation. His previous post amounts to little more than broad and wholly unsupported smears. And the "ton" of "bad news" is not coming out of Venezuela. It's distinctly coming out of the US and UK.

Finally, it is Deku (and others) who have "harped on" about the Venezuelan government's alleged clamp down of the media. I've merely refuted it. And I've said plenty more than that, as should be evident even from this very page.

 

[Deku]

Regardless of political views of Chavez, his policy for his particular country appears to stink. He and his government don't appear to have the skill or experience necessary to carry out his policies. He has alienated other nations and businesses that could help him gain the experience. He is so inept that he really has no clue how to end massive homicide rates in his country when the solution seems easy enough.

Lack of competence may have something to do with it.

But the article, and common sense borne out the idea that its his creation of a state apparatus that is loyal to him, like any good autocrat, that is the problem.

The insitutions he's created is a soviet unto itself, and it has all of its flaws, and none of its benefits, as there is no Soviet Union anymore to subsidize his regime.