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[Zozz]

ok bro.

no vale la pena man.

I don't even try. This guy hasn't experienced it like we have. Venezuela was not always like this, it's terrible and it continues on a downward spiral. Only one person to blame, Venezuelans know it.

 

[elrechazado]

I don't even try. This guy hasn't experienced it like we have. Venezuela was not always like this, it's terrible and it continues on a downward spiral. Only one person to blame, Venezuelans know it.

Yeah. On topic, I remember one new years weekend back in in the 90s when we had 300+ murders in one weekend, in one section of caracas. Still remember hearing the gunshots all night from the ranchitos.

 

[Koodo]

Chavez has been in office for well over a decade now. He's had plenty of time to properly execute measures that would improve the country.

Even if he was Mother fucking Teresa, he's exhausted his time in office, by a large margin. This is irrefutable. I'm sorry if you feel otherwise; you might as well try to convince the general populace that New Zealand lies in Europe.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

I don't even try. This guy hasn't experienced it like we have. Venezuela was not always like this, it's terrible and it continues on a downward spiral. Only one person to blame, Venezuelans know it.

I think FC will just call you capitalist pig dogs or something, and how you are just a plant of the CIA.



Wait a second! No wonder you don't like Christina Hendricks! YOU BASTARD!

 

[Zozz]

Largely I blame the lack of funding the police departments, if it can get some proper fund, so much can be done. Get some control over the forces, cops are too corrupt and abuse their roles. Get rid of trash like that and put respectable people working.

 

[gutter_trash]

before Chavez, Venezuela was a tourist destination hot spot
after Chavez, nobody wants to travel there

 

[Socreges]

I'd like this thread to go from <homicide rates in Venezuela> ---> <debates on Chavez> ---> <intervention for fortified_concept>

 

[fortified_concept]

I'm no fan of capitalism, but what the hell are you talking about? People are talking about the Venezuelan economy, not the worldwide one. Are you really attempting to absolve Chavez of blame for the failures of his country?

Venezuela's economy depends also on the worldwide economy just like every country's does. Also in general and especially in socialism economic figures don't mean shit. Since in socialistic societies the government respects labour rights and hates exploitation of its citizens economy tends to slow down ( no slave labour for corporations to exploit :'( ). It's a welcome side-effect. Also terms like GDP don't mean shit when the gap between rich and poor is huge since the rich steal most of the wealth the proletariat created.

Find out who's behind the OVV, a Venezuelan NGO.

What's your point? What should I look for specifically?

 

[fortified_concept]

Chavez has been in office for well over a decade now. He's had plenty of time to properly execute measures that would improve the country.

Even if he was Mother fucking Teresa, he's exhausted his time in office, by a large margin. This is irrefutable. I'm sorry if you feel otherwise; you might as well try to convince the general populace that New Zealand lies in Europe.

Now this is something I can't argue against. Like I said it's getting frustrating.

 

[Zozz]

I think FC will just call you capitalist pig dogs or something, and how you are just a plant of the CIA.



Wait a second! No wonder you don't like Christina Hendricks! YOU BASTARD!

Yea, that's why I prefer skinny girls with huge tits. Because Venezuelan hot chicks fit it perfectly, lol.

 

[Socreges]

Venezuela's economy depends also on the worldwide economy just like every country's does. Also in general and especially in socialism economic figures don't mean shit. Since in socialistic societies the government respects labour rights and hates exploitation of its citizens economy tends to slow down ( no slave labour for corporations to exploit :'( ). It's a welcome side-effect. Also terms like GDP don't mean shit when the gap between rich and poor is huge since the rich steal most of the wealth the proletariat created.

Context, dude. Look at what you were initially replying to.

What's your point? What should I look for specifically?

Instead of lazily stating that "half" the articles spin/misconstrue the stats, why don't you investigate the source?

 

[mantidor]

Err, wasn't Antonus Mockus responsible for a lot of the improvements in Bogotá?

This is interesting. Antanas Mockus is clearly a centrist polititian, why is he seen as someone from the left outside our borders puzzles me. I think the same can be said about Bachelet or Lula, favorites of some people who try to defend Chavez or leftist movements on Latinamerica.

I'm talking about the recent mayor of Bogota, Samuel Moreno, the physical embodiment of ineptitude. What Mockus and Peñalosa did was almost completely destroyed by this idiot and his party.

A little tidbit to keep in mind when discussing Colombia and Venezuela, and I think it can easily be extended to all Latinamerica, you think we are in such bad shape because of this wannabe dictators? because of the "evil empire"? the guerrillas? drugs? NO, we are like this because we are drowned in corruption, is basically the way things get done, from the bribe you have to give to the guy at the airport in Caracas to let you go in (yes this actually happened to a friend of mine) to the president naming secretaries and ministries from within their own families. It permeates every level of society, every branch of government, every business deal, and the worst thing, is tolerated, people actually expect it.

 

[crazygambit]

It is anti-chavez propaganda because the murder rate before he came to power was also sky high.


Has he solved the problem?

No.

Has he made it worse?

No.


And since when is it the presidents job to stop local crime? Thats the job of the police.

I don't remember Obama being blamed when a pizza delivery man nearby was killed last week and robbed of his money.


Can you blame chavez for the media control? Absolutely, but thats a whole other issue.

Uh, according to the article (and I have no reason to doubt those numbers) it's now 3 times worse.

 

[Socreges]

This is interesting. Antanas Mockus is clearly a centrist polititian, why is he seen as someone from the left outside our borders puzzles me. I think the same can be said about Bachelet or Lula, favorites of some people who try to defend Chavez or leftist movements on Latinamerica.

I'm talking about the recent mayor of Bogota, Samuel Moreno, the physical embodiment of ineptitude. What Mockus and Peñalosa did was almost completely destroyed by this idiot and his party.

A little tidbit to keep in mind when discussing Colombia and Venezuela, and I think it can easily be extended to all Latinamerica, you think we are in such bad shape because of this wannabe dictators? because of the "evil empire"? the guerrillas? drugs? NO, we are like this because we are drowned in corruption, is basically the way things get done, from the bribe you have to give to the guy at the airport in Caracas to let you go in (yes this actually happened to a friend of mine) to the president naming secretaries and ministries from within their own families. It permeates every level of society, every branch of government, every business deal, and the worst thing, is tolerated, people actually expect it.

Oh, I don't think Mockus is leftist. I thought you were suggesting he is. I misread your post and thought you were saying things began to get worse during the mid-90s (when he was mayor). Some people can be far along enough on the spectrum that even a moderate can seem extreme.

 

[Zenith]

Venezuela's economy depends also on the worldwide economy just like every country's does.

...

That's the same excuse Zimbabwe used.

Maybe you should listen to the posters who actually lived in Venezuela. I wonder how many products from "capitalist pigs" (who uses that term anymore?) you make use of?

 

[Slayer-33]

being Venezuelan Ithis is just disgusting.

we live in fear every single day.

couple of days ago a friend of mine was killed and that's a story that repeats over and over again.

That's f'ing terrible.

 

[Zozz]

Didn't know there were this many Venezuelans on GAF.

 

[elrechazado]

Didn't know there were this many Venezuelans on GAF.

Let's celebrate, I'll bring the arepas.

 

[empty vessel]

Because of the Western ruling class's propaganda campaign against Venezuela's current government, it is often difficult to separate fact and fiction. National elections in Venezuela are approaching, and the New York Times article appears to serve mostly as a political advertisement for Chavez's opposition. That's not to say that the article is entirely false, but it is to say it's very unlikely to be the full story. Below is what I consider to be a more objective source:

Mérida, August 31st 2010 (Venezuelanalysis.com) – 75.4% of televised campaign advertisements have been pro-opposition and 24.6% have been pro-government since the race for 165 seats in Venezuela’s National Assembly officially began last Thursday, according to a study by the National Electoral Council (CNE). [Note that this gives the lie to the whole Venezuela-suppresses-the-media trope.] ...

The opposition has also concentrated its media clout – and its electoral platform – on a campaign to blame the government for the country’s rising homicide rate. Pro-opposition news outlets print gory images of bleeding bodies on a daily basis. The New York Times claimed Venezuela’s homicide rate is worse than Iraq’s. On Saturday, more than a thousand opposition supporters marched through the streets of Caracas holding signs that said “No More Deaths” and “Socialism Brings Death.”

In response, the government highlighted its efforts to build a new National Police based on prevention rather than repression that will leave behind the culture of corruption and abuse of human rights for which Venezuela’s police have been notorious for decades. In 2006, the government carried out nation-wide consultations with state and local police and community groups, and produced a new police code of conduct and a police university.

Also based on the consultations, the National Statistics Institute (INE) created a newly designed survey called the National Survey of Victimization and Citizen Security. The most recent survey, reported by the newspaper El Nacional, showed that 19,113 people were murdered in Venezuela during the year 2009 – a four-fold increase since President Hugo Chavez took office ten years ago.

Initial deployments of the National Police in targeted high-crime areas in late 2009 reduced local homicide rates by as much as 60%, and the homicide rate for Caracas as a whole decreased by 19% over the first half of 2010.

In spite of this, the 2,300-strong National Police force remains deficient. The Justice Ministry says the nation needs 127,000 police officers to combat crime, but there are only 40,000 officers currently on duty in the 138 state and local police agencies across the country.

In direct response to the opposition’s intensified anti-crime media campaign recently, the government has stepped up its targeted security operations, placing 800 police officers on Caracas highways, 900 officers in the Caracas subway system, and opening avenues for citizens to report crime on Twitter and by telephone. Also, next week the National Assembly is expected to pass a new Law on Disarmament.

National Police Commissioner Luis Fernández said the privately-owned media have “invisibilized the work carried out by this police body, while they magnify situations that affect citizen security” in the scope of upcoming National Assembly election.

“Nobody can deny that there is work to be done on this multi-faceted problem... but the principal media outlets’ intention is not exactly to help,” said Fernández.

Several top government officials criticized the opposition’s use of grotesque photographs to send its message about crime. National Assembly President Cilia Flores called the practice “necrophilic.”

In his weekly Sunday opinion column, President Chavez confronted New York Times correspondent Simon Romero directly. “Last Monday they launched another missile from The New York Times, in tune with the internal campaign the Venezuelan private media have been planning regarding the insecurity issue,” Chavez wrote.

“Who dares to compare the magnitude of the violence in Iraq – generated by a genocidal invasion where the tears of survivors will never be enough to calm their grief – with the structural insecurity problem in Venezuela, which has been generated by the brutal inequalities that our government inherited and is strongly facing today with a preventive and not repressive strategy?” Chavez wrote. ...

The PSUV currently controls nearly 100% of the National Assembly and is favored in most voter opinion polls. It hopes to mobilize its 7 million member base, the largest of any political party, and withhold at least two-thirds of the legislative body. The PSUV’s electoral campaign is based on the promise that improvements in public health, education, and food access, the advent of new mechanisms for local democratic participation, and the reduction of poverty will continue as the nation moves toward “21st Century Socialism.”

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/5605

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

...

That's the same excuse Zimbabwe used.

Maybe you should listen to the posters who actually lived in Venezuela. I wonder how many products from "capitalist pigs" (who uses that term anymore?) you make use of?

fairly certain he's typing all this bullshit on his ipad while sipping fair trade coffee and wearing an american apparel scarf.

I remember when I was a little boy living in the Dominican Republic and our neighbors coming from vacations in Venezuela saying how beautiful the country was and all the jobs and opportunity. a real shame what that idiot redneck Chavez has done.

Let's celebrate, I'll bring the arepas.

tasty!

 

[antonz]

Caracas is a cornucopia of terror. Can't believe I used to live there.

Recent development or always been? I was in Caracas I guess in 93 or 94 and things seemed rather calm. It was depressing seeing the outskirts and the shanty towns

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Clearly CIA plants killing people.

I don't even think the CIA has done anything in the past to fuck up Venezuela's political system.

 

[Funky Papa]

I don't even think the CIA has done anything in the past to fuck up Venezuela's political system.

Ahem. It's an open secret that former president of Spain José María Aznar knew about the coup because of his chummy relationship with Bush. Their reaction after it foiled was also quite funny :lol

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Ahem

I knew it was going to be about that before I clicked the link.

What I actually meant was the CIA actually succeeding in an overthrow or supporting a junta, like what happened to Brazil in the 1960s when they overthrew Joao Goulart.

My bad.

 

[Evlar]

According to Empty Vessel's article, the current number of police officers in Venezuela is about 40,000. According to google here, the population of Venezuela is 27,935,000. This yields 1.43 police officers per 1,000 capita.

According to this site, that places Venezuela 45 on a non-exhaustive list of nations ranked by police officers per capita, between Finland and Zambia. According to a comment in that same page the police to population ratio in the USA is 2.85 police officers per 1,000 capita.

So yeah, that along with the reduced pay for the police already on the service might have something to do with it.

EDIT: And I want to clarify that I really do mean "might have something to do with it". Internal societal problems like this are, in my opinion, very difficult for outsiders to diagnose.

 

[fortified_concept]

Context, dude. Look at what you were initially replying to.

The context of the discussion revolves around the article claiming that Venezuela's economy shrunk. My reply was that in socialist economies these numbers don't mean shit and that a big part of the reason their economy shrunk is the worldwide fuckups by the capitalists, something the article "forgets" to mention.

Instead of lazily stating that "half" the articles spin/misconstrue the stats, why don't you investigate the source?

Dude, can you be less cryptic please? I searched OVV in the article and I found nothing. Do you mean Incosec that was mentioned there? And yes half the articles about Venezuela are full of lies and propaganda.

edit: You mean the Venezuelan Violence Observatory. Not only you were being crypic but you spelled it wrong. Anyway I'll check it out but there are more numbers and half truths in that article than just VVO's figures.

 

[Funky Papa]

I knew it was going to be about that before I clicked the link.

What I actually meant was the CIA actually succeeding in an overthrow or supporting a junta, like what happened to Brazil in the 1960s when they overthrew Joao Goulart.

My bad.

In all fairness, a failed coup in a country like Venezuela is bound to fuck up its political landscape for decades to come. Chavez actually emerged stronger after the fact, so in some way you can put that into Bush's shitlist.

 

[empty vessel]

According to this site, that places Venezuela 45 on a non-exhaustive list of nations ranked by police officers per capita, between Finland and Zambia. According to a comment in that same page the police to population ratio in the USA is 2.85 police officers per 1,000 capita.

So yeah, that along with the reduced pay for the police already on the service might have something to do with it.

EDIT: And I want to clarify that I really do mean "might have something to do with it". Internal societal problems like this are, in my opinion, very difficult for outsiders to diagnose.

There is a pretty good consensus among social scientists and some economists that wealth inequality is a large contributing factor to violent crime. So while 1.43 police officers per 1000 people might be plenty of police for a more equitable society like Finland, it likely is very inadequate for a society like Venezuela's that has drastic wealth inequality.

 

[siddx]

My sister lives in Venezuela, luckily she's in a small town hours from Caracas thats mostly devoid of the insanity that defines Venezuela.

 

[elrechazado]

In all fairness, a failed coup in a country like Venezuela is bound to fuck up its political landscape for decades to come. Chavez actually emerged stronger after the fact, so in some way you can put that into Bush's shitlist.

Of course, chavez complaining about coups is the ultimate "sin verguenza" move. I guess you'd translate that as "chutzpah".

 

[fortified_concept]

Of course, chavez complaining about coups is the ultimate "sin verguenza" move. I guess you'd translate that as "chutzpah".

I like how you keep dismissing the coup as something not worth mentioning throughout the entire thread. Let me guess: You were part of the upper class there? That would also explain your adoration of big business.

 

[elrechazado]

I like how you keep dismissing the coup as something not worth mentioning throughout the entire thread. Let me guess: You were part of the upper class there? That would also explain your love with corporations.

To say it politely, fuck you. You don't know me or where I come from.

And that was a reference to chavez's political history. If you didn't get the reference, it's because you're thick, or you don't know what chavez was doing prior to becoming president. Hence the "sin verguenza" and chutzpah comments. If you don't understand, you can ask and I'll explain.

As for the merits of a coup, you're projecting (you do that a lot), since I've said no such thing. Any military takeover of a democratically elected government should be condemned. I'm not an authoritarian who likes the government to crush dissent like you have shown your support of in this thread.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

I like how you keep dismissing the coup as something not worth mentioning throughout the entire thread. Let me guess: You were part of the upper class there? That would also explain your adoration of big business.

Ok, you're a joke character confirmed.

 

[fortified_concept]

To say it politely, fuck you. You don't know me or where I come from.

And that was a reference to chavez's political history. If you didn't get the reference, it's because you're thick, or you don't know what chavez was doing prior to becoming president. Hence the "sin verguenza" and chutzpah comments. If you don't understand, you can ask and I'll explain.

As for the merits of a coup, you're projecting (you do that a lot), since I've said no such thing. Any military takeover of a democratically elected government should be condemned. I'm not an authoritarian who likes the government to crush dissent like you have shown your support of in this thread.

Then would you agree that the TV stations who are covering for and support a coup have no place in a democratic society? And instead of making jokes would you say you agree or disagree with Funky Papa's point?

 

[xbhaskarx]

Let me guess: You were part of the upper class there? That would also explain your adoration of big business.

What country do YOU live in? What class are YOU a part of?

 

[elrechazado]

Then would you agree that the TV stations who are covering for and support a coup have no place in a democratic society? And instead of making jokes would you say you agree or disagree with Funky Papa's point?

welcome to the ignore list, you're a joke. Also shows you know fuckall about venezuela since you obviously didn't get the reference.

 

[fortified_concept]

What country do YOU live in? What class are YOU a part of?

Greece. Currently middle class.

welcome to the ignore list, you're a joke. Also shows you know fuckall about venezuela since you obviously didn't get the reference.

So you avoid to reply to any of these questions. I think I've made my point...

 

[mantidor]

Ok, you're a joke character confirmed.

I'm surprised it didn't come with the usual "and you know english so you must be part of the oligarchy!".

I do wonder what fortified_concept thinks of Chavez' own coup attempt back in the 90s.

 

[elrechazado]

I'm surprised it didn't come with the usual "and you know english so you must be part of the oligarchy!".

I do wonder what fortified_concept thinks of Chavez' own coup attempt back in the 90s.

He obviously doesn't know about it or he'd have got my reference instead of ignoring it. Now he'll pretend he totally knew though.

 

[Sblargh]

You know, every day I thank the fucking God that I don't believe it exists that when Brazil decided to elect a left-wing president, it did after he basically told the nation "I wont be a socialist wannabe, I'll just do some socialdemocratic shit, but love globalization, love the market, etc etc"

In a way, the great thing about Lula is that he is a left wing alternativa in South America to Chávez.
I understand people in latin america just tired of the right after all the shit we been through with dictatorships and elites ruling stuff and not even faking it, but if we are going left, I'm glad it's Lula and his little social programs with focus on commerce instead of that dictator wannabe.

If you think capitalism is cruel and government intervention is needed, that's a debate. The way Chavez systematically bankrupt his country and only gave back empty rhetoric is bullshit.

 

[fortified_concept]

I'm surprised it didn't come with the usual "and you know english so you must be part of the oligarchy!".

I do wonder what fortified_concept thinks of Chavez' own coup attempt back in the 90s.

It's not something he should be proud of. Having said that you should read more about Perez. Chavez's action was a coup on the upper class coup that had been initiated by a lying puppet president that did the exact opposite of what he had promised his people.

 

[mre]

It's not something he should be proud of. Having said that you should read more about Perez. Chavez's action was a coup on the upper class coup that had been initiated by a lying president that did the exact opposite of what he had promised his people.

Was that president democratically elected?

 

[Socreges]

The context of the discussion revolves around the article claiming that Venezuela's economy shrunk. My reply was that in socialist economies these numbers don't mean shit and that a big part of the reason their economy shrunk is the worldwide fuckups by the capitalists, something the article "forgets" to mention.

Go further back. You were responding to a guy asking whether or not Chavez could follow through with his plans given the state of the economy by talking about "capitalist pigs".

Dude, can you be less cryptic please? I searched OVV in the article and I found nothing. Do you mean Incosec that was mentioned there? And yes half the articles about Venezuela are full of lies and propaganda.

edit: You mean the Venezuelan Violence Observatory. Not only you were being crypic but you spelled it wrong. Anyway I'll check it out but there are more numbers and half truths in that article than just VVO's figures.

:lol

Observatorio Venezolano de Violencia (OVV)

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Anyone else miss the third part of the triumvirate with RiskyChris being banned? FC and Vessel without Chris just seems like it's missing something. :lol

 

[water_wendi]

Chavez's action was a coup on the upper class coup that had been initiated by a lying puppet president that did the exact opposite of what he had promised his people.

How many coups against the non-ruling lower class have there been?

 

[mre]

How many coups against the non-ruling lower class have there been?

Why, Comrade, every instance of capitalism is a coup against the non-ruling lower class.

 

[Dresden]

Anyone else miss the third part of the triumvirate with RiskyChris being banned? FC and Vessel without Chris just seems like it's missing something. :lol

Risky wasn't insane, though. Just too chivalrous.

 

[mre]

Risky wasn't insane, though. Just too chivalrous.

You have made an assertion, sir. I demand you back this up with empirical evidence.

 

[fortified_concept]

Go further back. You were responding to a guy asking whether or not Chavez could follow through with his plans given the state of the economy by talking about "capitalist pigs".

There was some offtopic preaching along with my reply but yours wasn't any better either. Remember this part?

Are you really attempting to absolve Chavez of blame for the failures of his country?

Observatorio Venezolano de Violencia (OVV)

Yes of course I should have known the original name in spanish of the organization. Or, you know, you could have been less cryptic. FFS.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

You have made an assertion, sir. I demand you back this up with empirical evidence.

:lol

Didn't he go nuts in the thread that got him tossed? I haven't read the whole thing myself, but I was told he went bonkers.