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[noshten]

It's up to the individual to decide if they feel their issues are "invisible" to Bernie Sanders or Hillary Clinton. Some folks might think his platform does enough to tackle institutional racism, others would think he is pandering and disingenuous.
In the end some people will decide that Hillary is the person who will champion their issues while others will decide Sanders. There is nothing wrong about either position and everyone is free to make up their own mind. This is why there is a process in place to choose the nominee. In the end of the day we are not choosing a Presidential Candidate of a hungered different factions and you don't have a yuge field of candidates to choose from - every person needs to find what the most important issues are and usually they would choose whichever candidate they feel is most genuine about tackling them

 

[captainnapalm]

Yes, because that's what happened when Obama, someone who is 10x more charismatic then Bernie, was blocked at every turn. These are dreams, fantasies at best.

I think history will show that the American people were sold a bunch of horseshit with Obama's 2008 election campaign. It was all a smokescreen. Obama was never really there to uproot the establishment. He was just another establishment candidate in disguise.

People don't want to admit this, because the guy is outwardly likeable, but it's not hard to figure out why democratic voters became apathetic again and stopped turning out for him.

 

[B-Dubs]

I think history will show that the American people were sold a bunch of horseshit with Obama's 2008 election campaign. It was all a smokescreen. Obama was never really there to uproot the establishment. He was just another establishment candidate in disguise.

People don't want to admit this, because the guy is outwardly likeable, but it's not hard to figure out why democratic voters became apathetic again and stopped turning out for him.

Uproot the establishment? What the what? Did you pay attention to his campaign at all? He was never about uprooting the establishment, dude was all about working across the aisle.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Ok, but Bernie isn't convincing enough folks, namely black folks, that the same smokescreen isn't happening here.

If he was at least half as charismatic as Bill, nevermind Obama, Hillary would have been done for by now.


And I definitely wasn't expecting any uprooting from Obama. Just more left leaning politics after the load of crap W gave us.

 

[Lime]

1. Bernie needs to get a grip and handle this much much better instead of behaving like a stubborn mule
2. I'm really sad to hear he didn't do much during his time in Vermont

 

[ugaboga232]

1. Bernie needs to get a grip and handle this much much better instead of behaving like a stubborn mule
2. I'm really sad to hear he didn't do much during his time in Vermont

He was part of congress, what was he supposed to do?

 

[QuiteWhittle]

Uproot the establishment? What the what? Did you pay attention to his campaign at all? He was never about uprooting the establishment, dude was all about working across the aisle.

Obama actively courted high-profile endorsements and worked hard to prove to the establishment that he was the better candidate over Clinton. That is some serious revisionist history.

 

[jorgeton]

People saying Obama's election campaign promises were horseshit, yet still supporting Bernie's idealistic, fantasy dreamscape of a campaign baffle me...

 

[Amir0x]

The same Obama that was trying to the trans pacific partnership. Has it occured to you that maybe Bernie supporters would rather not have a corporatist President regardless

That wasn't the argument though. The argument in this hypothetical scenario was that maybe the American people get SO annoyed at the obstructionism that moves are made toward a more progressive country. If Obama had free reign to pass the legislation he wanted from the jump, this country would be insanely more progressive. But he wasn't (not even when he had majorities: Blue Dog Democrats fucked his plans up then) and he had to compromise and pass legislation that was far more moderate because that's all he could get done with the makeup in Congress before even that makeup eroded and nothing at all could be done. And there wasn't some mid-term extravaganza where all these progressives came out in fury at the obstructionism (actually, it could be argued the precise opposite happened... conservatives mobilized the tea party movement). Instead, shit just didn't get done, because it couldn't get done.

The better shot is an equally limited arguement, the Republican candidates are as weak as they've ever been considering trump is front runner who has pissed off hispanics, isn't getting the black vote and is now in the feud with the pope over whether he s actually a Christian. He has a miniscule chance of winning, that's barely a concern. Cruz also has many, many holes to pick at.

That is your belief, it is not mine. On top of that, as I said many times, Democrat candidates infinitely more charismatic than Bernie have been taken out for things far less anathema to the American public than going on honeymoon to the USSR and calling yourself a "Democratic Socialist." Bernie has not had the Republican attack ads come at him in force yet. Hillary has been the brunt of virtually every political attack from that field since before Benghazi, and has had multiple politically motivated controversies drummed up to try to derail her candidacy. And she is still kicking and is going to win the nomination.

It is my firm belief, and the belief of many, many political observers, that the second Bernie were to be nominated his entire campaign would wither under the weight of these attacks from Republicans. Shit would get real, and it would be impossible for Bernie to walk any of it back since it's public record. I am not willing to take this risk. You are. I encourage you to take that risk if you think passing zero legislation with someone incrementally more progressive than Hillary at the helm is worth it.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

What leads you to that conclusion?

I agree with Guevara. Clinton as Secretary of State already has experience with working across the aisle. Sanders is a Senator, just like Obama was. Obama had trouble working with his own party in 2009/10, let alone with Republicans. With regards to working with Democrats, it doesn't help that Sanders isn't even a Democrat in the first place.

 

[captainnapalm]

Uproot the establishment? What the what? Did you pay attention to his campaign at all? He was never about uprooting the establishment, dude was all about working across the aisle.

Wasn't his whole thing 'change' and 'Yes we can'. People were so damn excited, but we were all being played. And now we've sunk back into being defeatist.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I think history will show that the American people were sold a bunch of horseshit with Obama's 2008 election campaign. It was all a smokescreen. Obama was never really there to uproot the establishment. He was just another establishment candidate in disguise.

People don't want to admit this, because the guy is outwardly likeable, but it's not hard to figure out why democratic voters became apathetic again and stopped turning out for him.

Completely agreed. I get shit for saying that but it's the truth.

 

[kirblar]

I agree with Guevara. Clinton as Secretary of State already has experience with working across the aisle. Sanders is a Senator, just like Obama was. Obama had trouble working with his own party in 2009/10, let alone with Republicans.

Marginal voter theory- when you have 60 people and require exactly 60, anyone can hold the thing hostage.

Fillibuster should've been killed off by either W or Obama when they had the chance.

Obama? Not establishment? He came up from the system, not from outside of it.

 

[Guevara]

What leads you to that conclusion?

No concrete reason and I could be totally wrong, I just feel like Hillary has worked in and against heavy opposition and political gridlock for 20+ years so I feel like she'll be more creative and effective. I also value her experience as Secretary pretty highly, more highly than being a senator.

 

[Slayven]

People saying Obama's election campaign promises were horseshit, yet still supporting Bernie's idealistic, fantasy dreamscape of a campaign baffle me...

It is like they refuse to recognize why Obama didn't turn this into the land of milk and honey

 

[The Technomancer]

Wasn't his whole thing 'change' and 'Yes we can'. People were so damn excited, but we were all being played. And now we've sunk back into being defeatist.

Obama got a shit ton done during his first two years. Remember, the ACA was basically written and passed through congress in just those two years. If Obama had gotten a full four years, or heaven forbid eight years of productivity like that I would have no hesitations about calling his campaign of "change" a success

 

[Slayven]

ACA was a he'll of a game changer for a lot of folks

 

[Mammoth Jones]

ACA was a he'll of a game changer for a lot of folks

I still don't know what the fuck this will mean for me:

http://www.cigna.com/health-care-reform/cadillac-tax

 

[Principate]

That wasn't the argument though. The argument in this hypothetical scenario was that maybe the American people get SO annoyed at the obstructionism that moves are made toward a more progressive country. If Obama had free reign to pass the legislation he wanted from the jump, this country would be insanely more progressive. But he wasn't (not even when he had majorities: Blue Dog Democrats fucked his plans up then) and he had to compromise and pass legislation that was far more moderate because that's all he could get done with the makeup in Congress before even that makeup eroded and nothing at all could be done. And there wasn't some mid-term extravaganza where all these progressives came out in fury at the obstructionism (actually, it could be argued the precise opposite happened... conservatives mobilized the tea party movement). Instead, shit just didn't get done, because it couldn't get done.




That is your belief, it is not mine. On top of that, as I said many times, Democrat candidates infinitely more charismatic than Bernie have been taken out for things far less anathema to the American public than going on honeymoon to the USSR and calling yourself a "Democratic Socialist." Bernie has not had the Republican attack ads come at him in force yet. Hillary has been the brunt of virtually every political attack from that field since before Benghazi, and has had multiple politically motivated controversies drummed up to try to derail her candidacy. And she is still kicking and is going to win the nomination.

It is my firm belief, and the belief of many, many political observers, that the second Bernie were to be nominated his entire campaign would wither under the weight of these attacks from Republicans. Shit would get real, and it would be impossible for Bernie to walk any of it back since it's public record. I am not willing to take this risk. You are. I encourage you to take that risk if you think passing zero legislation with someone incrementally more progressive than Hillary at the helm is worth it.

That's one guys arguement, the general prevailing arguement in this primary is whether you believe Bernie would be a more worthwhile President to have than Clinton. Many Bernie supporters don't like that Hilary is a corporatist which is a valid reason in it's own. Just like if you don't mind or prefer that.

Your making massive assumptions about bernies cataclymic disintergretation, when Hilary is under constant attack, and it's barely made a dent (if it has your arguement has already fallen apart), and Obama successful held on against one of the biggest white american turn outs in history. So why would Bernie when facing against a Trump that has already lost the Hispanic vote, lost the black vote, and is having his Christanity questioned by the goddamn Pope, somehow going to completely crash an burn in the general.

Sounds about as equally crazy as the likelihood of bernie passing his biggest policies. If you have so little faith in the American public I'm not even sure how voting for Hillary will help things.

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Marginal voter theory- when you have 60 people and require exactly 60, anyone can hold the thing hostage.

Fillibuster should've been killed off by either W or Obama when they had the chance.

Obama? Not establishment? He came up from the system, not from outside of it.

I edited my post to make it less confusing. I think Sanders will have a harder time working with Congress. As Senator he doesn't have as much experience working with Republicans or even Democrats as Hillary does. Obama is establishment, but I think his lack of experience at the executive level made his first few years rocky.

 

[B-Dubs]

Wasn't his whole thing 'change' and 'Yes we can'. People were so damn excited, but we were all being played. And now we've sunk back into being defeatist.

None of that said "Uproot the establishment."

Obama got some real shit done when he had the chance and really changed the game for a lot of people. There's posters on this board who have benefited immensely from things like the ACA, I'm one of them.

 

[NeoXChaos]

None of that said "Uproot the establishment."

Obama got some real shit done when he had the chance and really changed the game for a lot of people. There's posters on this board who have benefited immensely from things like the ACA, I'm one of them.

exactly. Its why this is happening:

 

[GaimeGuy]

The point was that we can do shit if we get off our asses and demand it enough and vote in great enough numbers.

Then people sat on their asses in 2010 which fucked over districting since it was a census year. And again in 2014. Way2go.

 

[captainnapalm]

Completely agreed. I get shit for saying that but it's the truth.

Obama can best be understood as a brand. An exciting and slightly risque brand meant to make people feel good about their president and their country while business continued as usual - the expansion of the security and surveillance state, the continued imperialistic projects in the Middle East, bailing out Wall Street without addressing any of the underlying issues that caused the problems in the first place, etc. Even with the ACA they threw people a bone, but it wasn't really the bone they were promised.

 

[Yoda]

They certainly picked a rather opportunistic time to voice their displeasure.

 

[Damaniel]

.

 

[B-Dubs]

Obama can best be understood as a brand. An exciting and slightly risque brand meant to make people feel good about their president and their country while business continued as usual - the expansion of the security and surveillance state, the continued imperialistic projects in the Middle East, bailing out Wall Street without addressing any of the underlying issues that caused the problems in the first place, etc. Even with the ACA they threw people a bone, but it wasn't really the bone they were promised.

We're blaming Obama for the Wall Street bailout now? Do you even know when it took place?

 

[Crimson_Gold]

They certainly picked a rather opportunistic time to voice their displeasure.

When would have been a better time

 

[Vicetrailia]

Black people will continue to fall through the cracks as they do now on such a scale no matter who is elected. Black people won't get something that they've never had before even as they try their best to help themselves. We all know why. But I hope people can get Bernie to even think about this stuff on this level.

I don't belive that Hilary will accomplish anything that Bernie won't. Am I wrong?

 

[captainnapalm]

We're blaming Obama for the Wall Street bailout now? Do you even know when it took place?

I know it started with Bush. But the Obama administration did nothing to hold people accountable. In fact, they went out of their way to do the opposite.

 

[Yoda]

When would have been a better time

He's been senator for an awfully long time? How about anytime within the past few decades he's represented the stated? If they are being marginalized and represent their respective communities they ought to speak out about it and figure out a way to fix/mend the problem.

 

[Raxus]

I know it started with Bush. But the Obama administration did nothing to hold people accountable. In fact, they went out of their way to do the opposite.

Because the collapse exposed how little accountability there was in our financial markets. Hence Dodd Frank.

 

[Crimson_Gold]

He's been senator for an awfully long time? How about anytime within the past few decades he's represented the stated? If they are being marginalized and represent their respective communities they ought to speak out about it and figure out a way to fix/mend the problem.

Perhaps they were recently asked? Maybe they've reached out in the past and got no response? We really don't and likely will never know the intricacies. This is the type of information that comes out during an election. Not like someone conveniently tried to bring out some lovechild it something. This is relevant to his campaign and issues it's facing

 

[dave is ok]

2. I'm really sad to hear he didn't do much during his time in Vermont

Bernie Sanders is about as popular as a person can get in Vermont. I don't think his constituency feels like "he didn't do much".

 

[Rembrandt]

http://pleasecutthecrap.com/obama-accomplishments/

 

[Volimar]

Bernie Sanders is about as popular as a person can get in Vermont. I don't think his constituency feels like "he didn't do much".

I think he meant for black folks.

 

[JesseEwiak]

I know it started with Bush. But the Obama administration did nothing to hold people accountable. In fact, they went out of their way to do the opposite.

The vast majority of the things that happened in the run up to the crisis were 100% legal. Thus, the need for Dodd Frank. Plus, going after Wall Street would expend a massive amount of political capital - do you want to give up the ACA or the stimulus to maybe possibly send one or two executives to jail for a little bit?

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

He's been senator for an awfully long time? How about anytime within the past few decades he's represented the stated? If they are being marginalized and represent their respective communities they ought to speak out about it and figure out a way to fix/mend the problem.

He wants to upgrade from local to national. This is exactly the right time for anyone who knew him on that level to tell the people. Ted Cruz's college roommate is doing the same thing on Twitter, and it's hilarious.

 

[Lime]

He was part of congress, what was he supposed to do?

What was evident from the statements in the OP

 

[Lime]

The vast majority of the things that happened in the run up to the crisis were 100% legal. Thus, the need for Dodd Frank. Plus, going after Wall Street would expend a massive amount of political capital - do you want to give up the ACA or the stimulus to maybe possibly send one or two executives to jail for a little bit?

That's not how it works. False dichotomy.

The fact of the matter is that it's possible to criticize Sanders and also Obama at the same time. Sanders is not doing very well in being pro-active in recognizing racial issues, while Obama's 8 years has been a very well-branded status quo that has continued a lot of the despicable things during the Bush administration, as captainnapalm highlighted.

 

[JesseEwiak]

That's not how it works. False dichotomy.

The fact of the matter is that it's possible to criticize Sanders and also Obama at the same time. Sanders is not doing very well in being pro-active in recognizing racial issues, while Obama's 8 years has been a very well-branded status quo that has continued a lot of the despicable things during the Bush administration, as captainnapalm highlighted.

Yup. Totally status quo. Nothing positive has changed. Just should've voted for McCain in 2008.

Obama's foreign policy is the most realist and least war mongering you can get while running the world's hegemony. The truth is, the American people support drone warfare and basically don't care about the NSA by massive margins. Your median voter may not want boots on the ground, but they don't want Ron Paul/hard left style isolationism.

 

[NetMapel]

Oh wow, I guess he really doesn't care about minorities at all. Campaign destroyed.

What about Asians??? At least Hillary Clinton made a video wishing happy lunar new year to us!!! Nobody ever thinks about Asians when talking about minority here

 

[Lime]

Yup. Totally status quo. Nothing positive has changed. Just should've voted for McCain in 2008.

It would be nice if we could have discussions without hyperbole.

The status quo was continued by the current administration as in a neoliberal capitalist oligarchy with its prison industrial complex, a lack of commitment to sustainable clean energy, its unjust drug laws, its extrajudicial murder of foreigners, its mass surveillance of everybody, continuing Guantanamo, bombing other countries, a watered down healthcare solution, a lack of police reform, non-regulation of Wall Street, and on and on.

I know, I'm asking a lot, especially from someone facing insane people on the righ t (GOP) but people need to start to understand that it's okay to realize that Obama administration could have been better, much better. They still managed to do some good (Iran deal, COP21, ACA) but the drone strikes and mass surveillance and economic policy are especially up for criticism.

Anyway we are steering of course from the thread: it's about Sanders and his lack of acknowledging racial issues based on testimonies from Vermont.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary

 

[Mael]

I think history will show that the American people were sold a bunch of horseshit with Obama's 2008 election campaign. It was all a smokescreen. Obama was never really there to uproot the establishment. He was just another establishment candidate in disguise.

People don't want to admit this, because the guy is outwardly likeable, but it's not hard to figure out why democratic voters became apathetic again and stopped turning out for him.

I was halfway across the globe in 2008 and even I saw that Obama never sold anything but working across the aisle.
If you voted for him for some made up reason you made in your head that's really your own fault.
Don't go blaming Sanders when he fails to offer free self driving cars to everyone.

 

[Johndoey]

How bout we just stop eatin chittlins altogether.

Clearly you haven't had quality chitlins.

 

[Donthizz#]

You guys don't get it. Black people are part of the establishment.

 

[Enzom21]

Clearly you haven't had quality chitlins.

There are no quality shit tubes bruh. They carry shit... shit!

 

[TarNaru33]

When a bunch of people have a problem, there's nothing wrong with lumping them into groups. Either fix the massive problem of ass backwards racial views from bernie supporters or deal with the much more minor problem of having your feelings hurt on the internet for being one of the few bernie supporters that does not espouse dangerous ideals.

You do realize what you are saying here, right? Your entire statement, is ridiculous and I am surprised no one bothered to call you out on it.

Anyways, while I do acknowledge Bernie puts more emphasis on income-related issues, all of the fixes he states will not have an insignificant impact on Blacks in U.S.

He can't "end racism", only try his best at setting the systems in place to fight it and hope U.S culture itself change.

Here are the list of things he want to do that helps Blacks.

Income have a lot to do with keeping people in a lower class status.

Money in politics will help fight industry bias, many of which is detrimental to Blacks.

He wants to legalize marijuana and make drug issues a health issue, this itself is good for Blacks, though i do suspect the reason for arresting Blacks will change to something else.

Healthcare for all and free public university are also good for Blacks as well as everyone as a whole so they can climb the socioeconomic ladder.

He wants police to have more accountability. No one should be able to kill someone and say "I thought he had a gun" or "he came at me" and get away with it when evidence shows this isn't the case.

He wants to END mandatory minimum sentences while Hillary only wants to cut it in half.

Is he saying it in the debates constantly? No. Do I think he can and should? Yes, but note racial issues in U.S is rooted in many parts of the U.S system. He needs to do this without the risk of alienating too many white voters as some see racial issues as an attack against whites.

He obviously needs to do better at grabbing the Black vote, but that will still be difficult considering who he is running against. I think many of you stating he seemingly has no plan for Blacks don't pay attention to his campaign, just the highlighted moments (debates etc.) and see him only saying "banks and wall street".

 

[You Are Viewtiful]

Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary
Questioning Bernie is not endorsing Hillary

Yep, same for the other way around. These threads get so strange when people act like it's a team sport.