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[The Abominable Snowman]

if the WiiU is reserving 1GB, I'd expect similar from the other platforms, as wasteful as it seems.

Windows RT seems to require 1GB at the lowest end. I know OS footprint is going to increase exponentially, but as long as it's less than, say, 25% of RAM resources we should be ok. Using 1GB of 4GB is unexcusable imo. 1GB of 2GB can slide because .. well.. the Wii U is largely going to have software using 'elements' made for systems with 512MB.

 

[i-Lo]

I think Sony has shown through the vita that they learned their lesson about OS footprint. But will they learn their lesson regarding memory allocated for software use?

The ongoing skyrim fiasco worries me when I hear people say PS4 will only have 2GB.

How much is the Vita OS footprint?

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

How much is the Vita OS footprint?

I can't find any hard numbers. Just commentary in reviews that the ram setup has taken into account the importance of OS footprint to make sure games get their fair share this time. Those with technical understanding feel free to chime in.

That's enough of a strategy shift to indicate Sony knows they done goofed with the sloppy implementation of PS3's OS and moving forward are going to avoid fiascos like in-game xmb coming late, no background cross game chat, etc. because of them not having the foresight for that.

Simply separating OS pool from software isn't enough though to deal with the skyrim problem if were talking about games coming out 5 years from now. They're going to need at least 4GB. If not then either the games will change for the worse to remain compatible or they will skip PS4.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Take a hint from handhelds, Critical Apps will always be loaded in memory.

PS4 Rumors : Multitasking while gaming , android based OS …. More

- Ps4 will get an interesting feature that will allow the player to pause the game and jump to the Main menu (XMB if you want ) and start another application like video chat – PSN titles like dead nation…etc the best part is that the player will be able to pause more than 1 game/app and send them to the background

Advanced Micro Devices, Inc, or AMD, a semiconductor company, has announced its collaboration with Microsoft Corp for more than 125 Windows 8-based PC designs from OEMs including ASUS, Dell, Fujitsu, HP, Lenovo, Samsung, Sony, Toshiba and more.

Mainstream and ultrathin notebooks, tablets, all-in-one and traditional desktops, home theater PCs and embedded designs powered by the second generation AMD A-Series APUs and AMD Z-Series APUs

-- AMD Start Now Technology: AMD-powered Windows 8-based notebooks boot,
resume and respond faster than competing x86 solutions(1);
-- AMD Catalyst(TM) drivers compatible with Windows 8 featuring support
for DirectX 11, DirectX 11.1 and Windows Display Driver Model 1.2;
-- AMD AllDay(TM) Power enables consumers everywhere to experience
unmatched mobility with more than 12 hours of resting battery life on
their AMD-based device(2);
-- AMD Eyefinity Technology: a feature unique to AMD-powered PCs,
consumers can now span their Windows 8 desktop, user interface, games
and apps seamlessly across three or more monitors for a truly
immersive experience(3);
-- AMD App Acceleration: AMD Radeon GPUs with AMD App Acceleration let
you run multiple applications at the same time with remarkable speed
and reliability that provide enhanced performance beyond traditional
graphics and video processing. Customers running AMD-powered Windows 8
PCs can run desktop apps as well as new apps available from the
Windows Store and from AMD AppZone for a fast and fluid experience.

AMD App Acceleration is just a standard form of Zero copy and what we called Revolver in the 80's. With standards in place the App can have it's own copy of registers and switching from one app to another is just using a CPU pointer to that copy of the registers in memory. Very little has to move into the CPU to be run. This requires memory to always keep critical apps in memory.

DDR4 is already at 20nm and is going to be really really cheap. If stacking is used and a ultrawide DDR4 interface on Transposer carrier then it may be as little as $20 to go from 4 gigs to 8 gigs. It all depends on Sony willing to take a hit for the first year or so and the technology to be ready.

There are allot of game changers we are not considering. QOS would allow for several different performance SKUs, Game consoles will be transparently forward compatible and even in a model year do not have to have the same memory or performance. This would allow for a cheap price point for a base model and a higher end model. If this is the case then there is no need for a cheaper PS3 or Xbox 360 to fill that price point. Just adding two 1PPU4SPU CPU packages (guess $20) and we would have BC eliminating a need for the PS3 or Xbox 360. (I can think of no other compelling reason for the Xbox 361 that was supposed to release this holiday season to not have already been announced.)

I also think we are overestimating the price of the Xbox 360 and PS4. If the Xbox SoC can be used in a cable box it must be low power and cheap. I believe this is possible at 2Tflop. We get about a 2X efficiency increase with full HSA (6000 to 9000 GPU) and going to 20nm gives another 40%.

@ 28nm the following was calculated by a BY3D member for a APU.

$46.50 + 12.00 + 1.50 (packing) = $60 per APU (CPU+GPU).

I'd guess with memory, transposer, support chips and case = $260.00 which just about matches the Leaked Xbox powerpoint. (bottom of the slide) Notice also in the slide that the process could be 22nm SOI or 28nm G.

FD-SOI is aimed at both low-power and high-performance.
"G" or HP/HPP @ 0.85V Vddnom is outperformed by FD-SOI @ 0.9V Vddnom
"LP" or SLP @ 1V Vddnom is vastly outperformed by FD-SOI @ 0.8V Vddnom

Building a PC with the 2Tflop specs using off the shelf parts (retail) = about $500 from http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1677754&postcount=15381

 

[slider]

Take a hint from handhelds, Critical Apps will always be loaded in memory.

PS4 Rumors : Multitasking while gaming , android based OS …. More

A small detachable Android based device providing portability? Portability of what I don't know but the potential is clearly very large. The upgraded in game XMB (so to speak) isn't that surprising though.

That said I've never heard of the source site and they obviously don't give any hint of sourcing so I'll ignore this.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

A small detachable Android based device providing portability? Portability of what I don't know but the potential is clearly very large. The upgraded in game XMB (so to speak) isn't that surprising though.

That said I've never heard of the source site and they obviously don't give any hint of sourcing so I'll ignore this.

My guess is that this supposed device will take PSN games with it and also be able to have games streamed to it like the GameStop tablet or onlive/gakai. Would be awesome if it could have games streamed to it from PS4 itself.

I'm thinking it could be a reactionary peripheral to the wiiu, but it doesn't sound like its a mandatory/standard accessory. I wouldn't worry about fragmentation like eye or move though.

/speculation

@Jeff: what are your thoughts on if there's going to be a dedicated GPU in PS4 in addition to the A10? Could it be so A10 is low power mode and discrete GPU is for beefier games?

 

[Massa]

Sony can't ship a device based on Android that isn't actually Android and includes the Play Store and all other Google services. I mean, they could, but then they'd have to do the same for all their phones and tablets as well.

 

[i-Lo]

Piggybacking on Jeff's post about DDR4, at point, I'd not thought it practical implementing DDR4 but articles like the on linked to below, while unrelated to PS4, show that DDR4 may be the most efficient and logical choice in the end:

http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/news-events/press-releases/detail?newsId=11701

The company said it will work closely with its customers including server OEMs, as well as CPU and controller makers, to expand the market base for high-density DDR4 modules, of which it plans to begin volume production next year. It also is set to expand the overall premium memory market with its most advanced 20nm-class based DDR4 DRAM products, which will be available sometime next year at densities up to 32GB.

 

[RoboPlato]

Piggybacking on Jeff's post about DDR4, at point, I'd not thought it practical implementing DDR4 but articles like the on linked to below, while unrelated to PS4, show that DDR4 may be the most efficient and logical choice in the end:

http://www.samsung.com/global/business/semiconductor/news-events/press-releases/detail?newsId=11701

I think DDR4 is highly likely at this point. Sony seems to like faster RAM and GDDR5 is too hot, expensive, and complex for the amount of RAM they seem to want. It may also explain why there is a possibility of more than 4Gb now, if the dev kit numbers are to believed. DDR4's price is going to drop a ton next year and a lot of motherboards will be supporting it.

 

[michaelius]

There's no point in going DDR4 when DDR3 is industry standard with rock bottom prices and it's plenty fast for any pc game.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

Sony can't ship a device based on Android that isn't actually Android and includes the Play Store and all other Google services. I mean, they could, but then they'd have to do the same for all their phones and tablets as well.

If its strictly a PS4 accessory it could be like Amazon kindle and lock itself out of Google services and apps. If its only going to exist as a PlayStation device/accessory then it won't need the Google ecosystem. It could stick to PSN and PS Mobile access only.

 

[KojiKnight]

There's no point in going DDR4 when DDR3 is industry standard with rock bottom prices and it's plenty fast for any pc game.

Unless the ram is being used as a shared pool for graphics. Even the fastest DDR3 can still bottleneck a really fast graphics chip.

 

[jeff_rigby]

@Jeff: what are your thoughts on if there's going to be a dedicated GPU in PS4 in addition to the A10? Could it be so A10 is low power mode and discrete GPU is for beefier games?

McHuj said it on BY3D and I've also posted here that it's logical to assume the developer platforms built over the last 2 years were using off the shelf parts as they became available.

1) X86 CPU + GPU
2) A8 APU + GPU
3) A10 APU + GPU
4) Final Beta chipset based on a SoC with 2014 designs

It will not be based on a A10 that has a 128 bit wide DDR3 memory buss that is memory starved. A new memory technology is coming with 2014 designs. Even Intel has stated that embedded memory will be used with their processors on PCs in a year or so. Embedded because it has to have a wide I/O which requires a 2.5D transposer now then later embedded inside the CPU as a 3D stack on Logic.

DDR4 is designed to be stacked. In that design is low power which reduces heat (Necessary for stacking) but that makes DDR4 slower than DDR3. Wide I/O allows for a faster memory interface even with DDR4. So stacking and TSVs (for wide I/O 2.5D transposers) are necessary to get the most performance out of DDR4 memory. DDR4 was designed for Fusion APUs be it Intel or AMD and Wide I/O.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

There's no point in going DDR4 when DDR3 is industry standard with rock bottom prices and it's plenty fast for any pc game.

Console will use the best ram at the time which might happen to be DDR4 .
Most people thought they would be using GDDR5 but that might not be the case.
Also PC games use the gfx cards ram which is GDDR5 and DDR3 so saying DDR3 is okay by it's self is wrong .

 

[McHuj]

There's no point in going DDR4 when DDR3 is industry standard with rock bottom prices and it's plenty fast for any pc game.

That's today.

Console manufactures have to do a better job of predicting what the best/affordable solution will be 4 years and beyond into the console's lifespan. By then DDR3 prices are expected to rise as DDR4 will be replacing it.

 

[slider]

That's today.

Console manufactures have to do a better job of predicting what the best/affordable solution will be 4 years and beyond into the console's lifespan. By then DDR3 prices are expected to rise as DDR4 will be replacing it.

A good point well made.

 

[i-Lo]

There's no point in going DDR4 when DDR3 is industry standard with rock bottom prices and it's plenty fast for any pc game.

DDR4 is stated to consume 40% less power than DDR3 and about twice as fast. It makes all the more sense for a closed system with power constraints and performance requirements.

 

[RoboPlato]

DDR4 is stated to consume 40% less power than DDR3 and about twice as fast. It makes all the more sense for a closed system with power constraints and performance requirements.

It can also be stacked easily if they decide to go that route and that would allow for performance greater than GDDR5 and a significantly lower cost. I don't think 2.5D or 3D RAM stacking will be ready in time for the PS4 but if it is DDR4 would probably be the best choice for that.

 

[Commanche Raisin Toast]

Hmmm, an "A12" with a wide bus to stacked DDR4, possibly 4-6GB, and a dedicated GPU that won't push the TDP or power draw up too high?

I wonder how cheap the rumored quad layer BD drive will cost. Most other components should be cheap.

 

[Clear]

With final kits being expected next summer, what does that say about launch-date? I can't see it being earlier than first quarter of 2014, March at the earliest maybe?

 

[RoboPlato]

Hmmm, an "A12" with a wide bus to stacked DDR4, possibly 4-6GB, and a dedicated GPU that won't push the TDP or power draw up too high?

I wonder how cheap the rumored quad layer BD drive will cost. Most other components should be cheap.

It'll cost significantly less than the 1x BD drive in the PS3 did at launch. Don't know any hard numbers though.

With final kits being expected next summer, what does that say about launch-date? I can't see it being earlier than first quarter of 2014, March at the earliest maybe?

It could still be fall. 1st parties will likely get them before summer and 3rd parties will know target specs and the architecture so they can plan ahead what to budget for. No one really cares about launch games taking full advantage of the systems since they'll already look a ton better than the previous gen.

 

[Clear]

No one really cares about launch games taking full advantage of the systems since they'll already look a ton better than the previous gen.

True, but you still need a minimum 3 month window for QA on final hardware, aiming for Thanksgiving would be cutting it awfully close, and missing that date would be very bad for the NA market.

 

[RoboPlato]

True, but you still need a minimum 3 month window for QA on final hardware, aiming for Thanksgiving would be cutting it awfully close, and missing that date would be very bad for the NA market.

Summer could mean June. If they get out in June then that'll give a solid 4 months of dev time on final hardware before going gold for launch. I think Spring 2014 is likely for the PS4 but Holiday 2013 is a possibility.

 

[Evolution_1ne]

I think the earliest the ps4 will release is holiday in japan 2013 Feb-March 2014 everywhere else

 

[amrihua]

Good for AMD

 

[thehypocrite]

I think the earliest the ps4 will release is holiday in japan 2013 Feb-March 2014 everywhere else

I think I'll be worldwide release.

 

[michaelius]

DDR4 is stated to consume 40% less power than DDR3 and about twice as fast. It makes all the more sense for a closed system with power constraints and performance requirements.

Depends how much they relly on APU parts - because that's the only part of AMD cpus that even sees any kind of notable performance improvements with DDR3 speeds >1600 and you can get 8 gigs of DDR3 for like 30$ as end user.

Considering how much diffrence few cents make when producing milions of units using memory which would increade cost of memory subsystem by a factor or 2 or more would be repetition of PS3 errors.

 

[PandaL]

Good for AMD

Yeah I'm happy that AMD will rise again !!

 

[systemfehler]

Depends how much they relly on APU parts - because that's the only part of AMD cpus that even sees any kind of notable performance improvements with DDR3 speeds >1600 and you can get 8 gigs of DDR3 for like 30$ as end user.

Considering how much diffrence few cents make when producing milions of units using memory which would increade cost of memory subsystem by a factor or 2 or more would be repetition of PS3 errors.

In the "gaming" part of the PC-World you have GPUs with GDDR5 RAM and the DDR3 is used for the system. A console with only DDR3 would be seriously limited in bandwith and speed. I rather have less GDDR5/XDR2/DDR4 than triple of your cheap DDR3.

 

[Trogdor1123]

So are the new consoles starting to look less alike? It kind of sounds that way to me but I really dont understand what people are saying...

 

[RustyNails]

So will PS4 be easier for cross-development when it comes to porting games across PC, Xbox 720 and PS4? Or is Sony going the unique route again with a beastly hardware that only geniuses can figure out?

 

[JonathanPower]

But 64MB wouldn't leave much room for new OS functionalities, multitasking and other future improvements. The amount of RAM that's best suited largely depends on the GPU Durango will have since it's all about having a nicely balanced system without bottlenecks.

Well, unlike Sony and Nintendo, Ms is the king of OS optimization. I expect them to use a heavily optimized OS which uses the less possible memory, just like they did with the Xbox360.

 

[i-Lo]

Well, unlike Sony and Nintendo, Ms is the king of OS optimization. I expect them to use a heavily optimized OS which uses the less possible memory, just like they did with the Xbox360.

If they are collaborating with Google on the OS, they better make it highly optimised. I'd expect Sony to learn their lesson pertaining to OS footprint.

 

[H_Prestige]

Well, unlike Sony and Nintendo, Ms is the king of OS optimization. I expect them to use a heavily optimized OS which uses the less possible memory, just like they did with the Xbox360.

Yeah, when I think of great operating systems, I think of windows.

 

[M°°nblade]

Yeah, when I think of great operating systems, I think of windows.

Is that sarcasm?

 

[Mario007]

Well, unlike Sony and Nintendo, Ms is the king of OS optimization. I expect them to use a heavily optimized OS which uses the less possible memory, just like they did with the Xbox360.

I wouldn't be too sure of that, seeing the Surface RT tablets having their memory halfed, basically, due to the OS being so big.

 

[JonathanPower]

Yeah, when I think of great operating systems, I think of windows.

You may like Windows or not, but it's a fact that unlike Sony and Nintendo, Ms is specialized in making Opertating Systems. And it shows with the xbox360 OS memory footprint, which was since the beginning just 32MB of ram, meaning that they were even leaving room for future upgrades. By comparison, Sony used 125MB that was then reduced to 96MB later.

 

[abasm]

Sony's biggest shortcoming this generation has been on the OS/ecosystem front. A team-up with Google would make a ton of sense--Sony has been producing Android devices for some time, so a game system running Android wouldn't be terribly far-fetched. It would also tie in nicely to as-of-yet unrealized "PlayStation Suite". Sony would have access to a wealth of Android software and apps, while Google could leverage the PS4 to shore up Android's lacking game offerings.

I'm not confident that Sony can survive another console generation alone. The Vita is almost entirely self-contained, and without a strong cache of brands (like Nintendo's) or a robust app store (like Apple's or Google's) there are few compelling reasons to own one.

 

[i-Lo]

You may like Windows or not, but it's a fact that unlike Sony and Nintendo, Ms is specialized in making Opertating Systems. And it shows with the xbox360 OS memory footprint, which was since the beginning just 32MB of ram, meaning that they were even leaving room for future upgrades. By comparison, Sony used 125MB that was then reduced to 96MB later.

Which has now shrunk to around 50MB. Yea, while windows may be a different story, MS did a great many things with only 32MB.

 

[Tallshortman]

I think the earliest the ps4 will release is holiday in japan 2013 Feb-March 2014 everywhere else

Can't afford to miss christmas in the US if xbox is coming out in time.

 

[Evolution_1ne]

I think I'll be worldwide release.

doubt it, lately that hasn't been Sony's style

 

[i-Lo]

Can't afford to miss christmas in the US if xbox is coming out in time.

I think Sony already stated that they most likely won't be the first ones out. However, the gap will be much smaller this time and is also aided by the rumour that MS isn't getting satisfactory yield for Durango chip which may result in an unforeseen delay.

 

[Router]

Can't afford to miss christmas in the US if xbox is coming out in time.

Christmas is important yes but it's not vital. It's not like they will sell a lot more than if they launched in feb-march.



Anyway, my prediction has always been xbox720 November/December 2013 and PS4 Feb/March 2014.

Not a huge gap between the 2 releases this time.

 

[Tallshortman]

Christmas is important yes but it's not vital. It's not like they will sell a lot more than if they launched in feb-march.



Anyway, my prediction has always been xbox720 November/December 2013 and PS4 Feb/March 2014.

Not a huge gap between the 2 releases this time.

I definitely disagree. A lot of people purchasing these consoles are going to be parents and most "kids" dependent on their parents to purchase a console for them are going to go with the one that's available and are unwilling the wait the extra 2-3 months baring the PS4 being a supercomputer at the same price point.

 

[RoboPlato]

So are the new consoles starting to look less alike? It kind of sounds that way to me but I really dont understand what people are saying...

They'll be very similar in architecture but the power will be allocated differently. Microsoft is gearing more towards CPU power and lots of RAM, while Sony is going the APU route to allow the CPU and GPU to work together more closely.

 

[wsippel]

I never really looked into that leaked Microsoft document, but after doing so a few days ago, just an A10 and nothing else doesn't seem all that outlandish anymore. ~100W all in all, ~50W for the chipset - two Wii Us duct taped together, basically.

Not saying it will happen, but it seems kinda sensible. Don't think we'll see another arms race between MS and Sony.

 

[omonimo]

You may like Windows or not, but it's a fact that unlike Sony and Nintendo, Ms is specialized in making Opertating Systems. And it shows with the xbox360 OS memory footprint, which was since the beginning just 32MB of ram, meaning that they were even leaving room for future upgrades. By comparison, Sony used 125MB that was then reduced to 96MB later.

It's a lot less actually.

 

[Router]

I definitely disagree. A lot of people purchasing these consoles are going to be parents and most "kids" dependent on their parents to purchase a console for them are going to go with the one that's available and are unwilling the wait the extra 2-3 months baring the PS4 being a supercomputer at the same price point.

You'll find the majority of early adopters are enthusiasts. Only a smaller fraction are spoilt kids with parents. The difference won't be that dramatic especially with allocated launch units being on the limited side anyway.

 

[onQ123]

if the WiiU is reserving 1GB, I'd expect similar from the other platforms, as wasteful as it seems.

I can see them using 2GB for the OS.

 

[The Abominable Snowman]

I never really looked into that leaked Microsoft document, but after doing so a few days ago, just an A10 and nothing else doesn't seem all that outlandish anymore. ~100W all in all, ~50W for the chipset - two Wii Us duct taped together, basically.

Not saying it will happen, but it seems kinda sensible. Don't think we'll see another arms race between MS and Sony.

With MS going big on PSU, I doubt Sony, with their placed importance on being #1 in hardware, will cut down on their console by only having a 125W Max system.