The first generation PS3 had a power supply of 380W (same as rumoured XB3 spec) and peaked at about 209W. It'll most likely be the same thing with XB3 as well as for PS4. The PSU for PS4 will very similar to PS3 in capacity and perhaps will peak between 210 and 250W.
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vg247-PS4: new kits shipping now, AMD A10 used as base, final version next summer
- Thread starter Globox_82
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The first generation PS3 had a power supply of 380W (same as rumoured XB3 spec) and peaked at about 209W. It'll most likely be the same thing with XB3 as well as for PS4. The PSU for PS4 will very similar to PS3 in capacity and perhaps will peak between 210 and 250W.
From the document, it would seem Microsoft is targeting 50W, $50. An A10 would be a bit above that, actually. Basically, PS4 would be three Wii Us duct taped together, and Xbox 3 would be somewhere in-between. Still, the systems would be all in the same ballpark. 1TFLOPS tops. If the rumors/ leaks are correct.
It could, but then Sony as a whole would also be locked out of Google's ecosystem. That's how their Android licensing works, if you fork Android for one device you're automatically locked out for any other device. This would affect the entire Sony Mobile line-up of phones and tablets.
If so, that'd be even better news for Wii U's prospects of "downports".
What a load of bullshit.
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
I don't think it works like that.
You're obviously free to believe/ hope for whatever you want, but I didn't make that stuff up. I'm just working with current rumors and leaks. I don't even give a fuck. PS4 could be matchbox-sized, $99, 18TFLOPS and come with a built in coffeemaker for all I care. Probabably slightly less realitstic, but who knows, right...?
Saying MS and Sony will give Nintendo a 1 or 2 years headstart, only to release a console that's in the same ballpark is not something I can call realistic either.
Lol this thread always good for some laughs
I talk to someone who does 3D RAM engineering. Sooner than expected if things go smoothly.
M°°nblade;44086662 said:
Precisely. People claiming that Sony and MS should if they haven't already, follow Nintendo in terms of HW power (perhaps Nintendo over enthusiasts feel insecure) fail to think logically about the fact that it doesn't make sense to release a console with similar spec at least one year later.
Twice as fast? No. First DDR4 is going to be fairly similar to DDR3 outside power consumption. It's still not going to be GDDRx, which GPUs seem to like a lot when it comes to things that matter for graphics chips.
Unfortunately, people (including some console makers) prefer to be wowed by big numbers rather than speed.
M°°nblade;44086662 said:
It will be a 1 year head start, and even with a 100w power envelope it's going to be more powerful than the Wii U, obviously. Nothing to worry about in that regard.
Well logitech already have a mouse like that.
0.o
Duckhuntdog
Member
M°°nblade;44086662 said:
Stranger things can and will happen. But wsippel is fairly unbiased and well informed based of known data and leaks. I would trust him in his views and opinions in general.
Glorified G
Member
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
iamshadowlark
Banned
You have no idea what you're going on about do you?
He was talking about the leaked 2010 MS planning document, I presume. Surely things have changed since that document, but that was the direction MS was originally headed. To a certain extent, I believe they still are doing many of those things in one form or another.
jeff_rigby
Banned
You can take a few things from below:
1) Wide I/O memory is tied to next generation Fusion and Stacked Logic.
2) Test equipment is being developed now but won't be ready for 2013. Custom test equipment (pre assembly) for very large production runs (game console volume) is possible now but expensive. Certain select parts may be pre-tested, others will have redundancy built in that allows bad circuits to be fused off.
3) Next refresh will be cheaper with yield testing before assembly.
1) Wide I/O memory is tied to next generation Fusion and Stacked Logic.
2) Test equipment is being developed now but won't be ready for 2013. Custom test equipment (pre assembly) for very large production runs (game console volume) is possible now but expensive. Certain select parts may be pre-tested, others will have redundancy built in that allows bad circuits to be fused off.
3) Next refresh will be cheaper with yield testing before assembly.
https://www.advantest.com/aac/News/06072012_2.html said:
Do you have any specific information that would point to an end 2013 launch rather than a 2014 release?
I may have missed some info but I'm starting to doubt end 2013 because we still haven't heard anything officially from MS or Sony. The timespan between the announcement and a potential end 2013 launch is starting to get rather short to generate enough hype and I wonder if there will be enough next-gen worthy content ready to show.
I don't exactly worry that isn't not going to be more powerful. I expect it to be. But I do worry that it's not going to have enough oomph to decently run UE4 games with high IQ.
Oh you
Napalm_Frank
Member
Xbox no question IMO.
Brad Grenz
Member
Based on what?
The Abominable Snowman
Member
You're awfully pessimistic about MS/Sony's offering and optimistic about the Wii U. Leaks suggested a 360 with a 380W PSU. That document is years old. it's been pretty thoroughly discredited as no longer being the plan, if it ever was.
XtremeXpider
Member
Brad Grenz
Member
How does a rumor that implies both PS4 and 720 will be out next fall suggest the 720 is launching first?
It is (I think) the last legitimate *actual* leak outside some of those dev kit photos. Edit: When I say legitimate, I don't mean forum/grapevine stuff that we're accustomed to here at gaf (of which some is accurate and some isn't). I mean verified MS document - an actual leak.
The grapevine rumours suggest MS' console is further ahead in the pipeline. Though I fully expect both to release next holidays in some form.
That particular leak also mentions a CPU that would consume 300W and cost about as much as a small car. To put it bluntly: It's fake.
And this really isn't about optimism or pessimism. I'm just looking at what we have and try to extrapolate from there. I don't know what either company is really up to. Maybe I'm completely wrong. But there are a few things people tend to ignore: Sony, and especially MS, focus heavily on media and services. Features where small, quiet and affordable is far more important than raw power. Then, there's physics: No current GPU achieves more than 20GFLOPS/W, and neither Sony nor MS have access to some sort of physics-defying alien technology.
Again: I'm not saying it's definitely going to happen. I'm just saying that the more believable leaks and rumors point at conservative hardware. It's also worth noting that there are no "OMG awesome monster hardware" statements from developers. Instead, we hear that the systems will be "very affordable" and "good enough".
michaelius
Banned
McHuj
Member
If the rumors are true that the the PS4 (and next xbox) will be based on Jaguar cores, I think it's a really smart move.
I think 8 Jaguar cores will be physically smaller than 4 Piledriver cores. Thanks to the lower clock the power consumption of 8 Jaguar cores should be substantially lower than a 4 core Piledriver.
Look at the TPD of a A10-5800k vs A10-5700, the clock difference is small ~11% (3.8 vs 3.4 GHz for the CPU) and ~5% for the GPU (800 vs 760 MHz), yet the TPD is about 50% worse for the 5800k compared to the 5700 (or 5700 is 35% better depending how you look at it)
In a 50W SOC, I wouldn't expect a huge generational jump, in a ~100W SOC, I think that's possible.
I think 8 Jaguar cores will be physically smaller than 4 Piledriver cores. Thanks to the lower clock the power consumption of 8 Jaguar cores should be substantially lower than a 4 core Piledriver.
Look at the TPD of a A10-5800k vs A10-5700, the clock difference is small ~11% (3.8 vs 3.4 GHz for the CPU) and ~5% for the GPU (800 vs 760 MHz), yet the TPD is about 50% worse for the 5800k compared to the 5700 (or 5700 is 35% better depending how you look at it)
In a 50W SOC, I wouldn't expect a huge generational jump, in a ~100W SOC, I think that's possible.
It already exists
ha ha.
Yeah, scratch that off my want list.
Back to the drawing board!
In recent times MS and Sony have added more services and media apps to their machines but to say that is their 'philosophy' when creating machines is an outright lie.
Both the 360 and the PS3 where very powerful when released, in so much as a closed box design ..... Nothing about small, quiet and affordable about either of those machines.
So what are you talking about?
In your quest (as it seems) to fool yourself into believing that the Wii U spec indicates the rough ballpark the other two consoles will inhabit (small, quiet and affordable) the very idea that the next machines from MS and Sony will be again going for a higher level of tech seems to not rest with you so well.
Do I believe that we are going to see something that resembles a fully specced cutting edge PC in a box for $350 - $400 dollars? ...... No.
But I fully expect those two machines to easily surpass the Wii U and for launch titles on both to display a jump from last gen that will give them that certain wow factor ....... something that is sorely missing on the Wii U and to its detriment I may add.
That Wii U thread about lack of hype smacks to me of a console lacking that wow factor.
jeff_rigby
Banned
And I think he's right but a little low on performance estimates. Looking back to 2001 when the PS3 was being designed: A 2001 study pointed to performance for XTV and Blu-ray players which were speculated to support it. This set a min performance spec for the PS3.
In 2010 AMD posted this article Part the Clouds: AMD Fusion APUs Ideal for Cloud Clients and this continuation of the article. Lots there that applies to us and it's an easy read. After reading think about Zlib having hardware support in AMD APUs and the W3C supporting WebCL and Zlib compression as the standards to be used by web browsers. Think about AMD also including a ARM A5 for DRM and more in their APUs.
Now in 2011 Sony presented this slide show which points to min specs for the PS4. Naked-eye S3D 10x Render Performance 5 2 eye views 300FPS Interesting, rumors are 300FPS (from Sony CTO) 10 eye views (5 S3D) at 30 FPS each and the target of 10X GPU performance. I guess this is where the specs for next generation come from for Sony. They want to support glassless 3-D on 4K TVs with the PS4. 10X = 1.8Tflops and 300FPS requires the memory bandwidth of GDDR5 or more likely Ultra wide I/O DDR4 with eDRAM L3 cache.
The entire CE industry is taking us for a technology ride. They look 10-20 years down the road to see what might be possible and develop roadmaps for new TV resolutions and features. Due to chicken and egg issues they release features like 1080P and blu-ray, which requires 1080P, years before it becomes an accepted by the FCC standard for Over The Air broadcasts. Smart TV started in ?2009? but won't be officially used in the US till 2013 with ATSC 2.0 but was implemented 2011 with hbbTV DVB in the EU .
Sony was criticized for including blu-ray and 1080P in the PS3 as it added to the costs. Why introduce 1080P in 2006 and 3-D in 2010, no one had a 1080P TV in 2006 and no one had a 3-D TV in 2010, who would watch it? 3-D is going to be part of ATSC 2.0 along with 1080P and XTV in 2013 (6 years after the first blu-ray and 1080P TVs released). See the 2001 study and ATSC PDFs
ATSC 3.0 in the US is going to follow the international standard to be implemented (hardware) by TVs produced starting 2018. Since it's an international standard, the TVs we buy from Korea, China or Japan will already have ATSC 3.0 tuners and CPUs that can handle downconverting or displays that can handle 4K to 8K resolutions. To Chicken and egg prepare for this like we had with; 1080P, 3-D and blu-ray, a 4K blu-ray is going to be released next year (2013) and the PS4 will support 4K blu-ray, 4K and possibly 8K video streams as well as new HDMI port resolutions that will be standards for next generation TVs. (6-7 years after 4K blu-ray is released we will see the FCC authorize ATSC 3.0 (2020)). Lots of assumptions in the dates above.
Some are now knocking Sony for supporting 4K in the PS4 as who has or can afford a 4K TV and it adds to the cost of the PS4. IF you understand the above, the reasons for a VERY expensive launch PS3 become clear and the reason for including 4K in the PS4 is obvious. This time 4K blu-ray is going to cost only a few dollars more than 2K blu-ray in a game console. The added speed/FPS needed for 4K blu-ray can also be used for multi-view "Eyefinity view" or to support Head mounted displays, TVs and handhelds at the same time.
The leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint @ 6X can be accurate if it did not take into account the efficiencies of HSA and GPU prefetch which equal about 2X or 2.4Tflops total including efficiencies. Anywhere in the 1.8Tf (10X) to 2.4Tf (2X6) would work for next generation.
Brad Grenz
Member
We've also had grapevine rumors that the 720 design had a huge set back which required AMD to "start over" earlier this year, and that Sony in private has said they are doing everything in their power to beat Durango to market. Point is, we don't have any credible reason to discount one possibility over the other. Mostly the idea that the next Xbox will launch first seems to come from the fact that the 360 launched first, and nothing else. There isn't even an actual pattern to go on, since the PS2 was out well before the original Xbox. For the same reason tons of people on this forum assume the PS4 will be more expensive than the 720, but there's no real reason to believe that either. All actual information suggests that this generation will play out very different from the last, so it's pretty absurd so many are locked into these kinds of baseless assumptions.
jeff_rigby
Banned
20nm Quarter 1 2014 wafer pricing available here. And a PDF explaining the chart and why is here.
and http://www.globalfoundries.com/newsroom/2012/20120920.aspx
From the SOIconsortium which contradicts the above as to time to market and the choice to use bulk vs. SOI. Leakage appears to be the issue and is not as much of a factor for low power handheld SoCs. Will a Game console SoC be a low power design?
Summary http://www.soiconsortium.org/pdf/Economic_Impact_of_the_Technology_Choices_at_28nm_20nm.pdf
@ 28nm the following was calculated by a BY3D member for a APU.
The choice to use bulk vs. SOI. Leakage appears to be the issue and is not as much of a factor for low power handheld SoCs. Will a Game console SoC be a low power design? Notice also in the slide that the process could be 22nm SOI or 28nm G (High Power). From the above and previous articles it appears that there are issues at both 28nm (TSMC not using the same gate first till 20nm) and 20nm (GloFlo and TSMC using the same process) but high power designs having problems with leakage.
The A10 is a High power design, Kabini (jaguar CPUs) is a low power design with lower clocks. So if the PS4 is a SoC following the A10 in a later 2014 design it will be high power and 28nm and only produced by GloFlo and IBM and if following the Kabini design but more 2014 features, it will be either 28nm or 20nm and at 20nm could be produced by IBM, GloFlo and TSMC. To confuse the issues even more, ST microelectronics transferred SOI technology to GloFlo to allow them to make STMicroelectronics SoCs.
IF a low power design then the chance of backward compatibility is much less. A PPU4SPU MPA CPU package would still need to run at 3.2 Ghz to provide the performance to support Backward compatibility. That is not possible in a low power design unless it's made with a 22nm SOI process and 2.5D attached to the AMD core chip.
The above are the choices and Sony must make a choice based on yield/cost. A low power design requires a lower clock and to get the same performance, more CUs which impacts yield with more elements that can fail. A High performance SoC can have a higher clock and fewer CUs which can increase yield. Sweetvar26 leaked Jaguar CPUs which indicates a low power design which also would be needed if Microsoft is serious about using the SoC in Cable Boxes.
With SOI the design could be high power (faster clock) and 20nm but only GloFlo using the ST microelectonics tech or IBM - GloFlo with technology they have not announced for any other product (Game Console volume can justify this especially if microsoft-sony.com applies to this).
and http://www.globalfoundries.com/newsroom/2012/20120920.aspx
My understanding is 20nm then 6 months or more later 14nm-XM on a 20nm plane. If 14nm is taping out in 2013 then it supports 20nm in the 2011 Roadmap I previously posted is accurate. 20nm is possible for the PS4.
From the SOIconsortium which contradicts the above as to time to market and the choice to use bulk vs. SOI. Leakage appears to be the issue and is not as much of a factor for low power handheld SoCs. Will a Game console SoC be a low power design?
Summary http://www.soiconsortium.org/pdf/Economic_Impact_of_the_Technology_Choices_at_28nm_20nm.pdf
@ 28nm the following was calculated by a BY3D member for a APU.
I'd guess with memory, transposer, support chips and case = $260.00 which just about matches the Leaked Xbox powerpoint. (bottom of the slide) Notice also in the slide that the process could be 22nm SOI or 28nm G (High Power).http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1677711&postcount=15376 said:
The choice to use bulk vs. SOI. Leakage appears to be the issue and is not as much of a factor for low power handheld SoCs. Will a Game console SoC be a low power design? Notice also in the slide that the process could be 22nm SOI or 28nm G (High Power). From the above and previous articles it appears that there are issues at both 28nm (TSMC not using the same gate first till 20nm) and 20nm (GloFlo and TSMC using the same process) but high power designs having problems with leakage.
The A10 is a High power design, Kabini (jaguar CPUs) is a low power design with lower clocks. So if the PS4 is a SoC following the A10 in a later 2014 design it will be high power and 28nm and only produced by GloFlo and IBM and if following the Kabini design but more 2014 features, it will be either 28nm or 20nm and at 20nm could be produced by IBM, GloFlo and TSMC. To confuse the issues even more, ST microelectronics transferred SOI technology to GloFlo to allow them to make STMicroelectronics SoCs.
IF a low power design then the chance of backward compatibility is much less. A PPU4SPU MPA CPU package would still need to run at 3.2 Ghz to provide the performance to support Backward compatibility. That is not possible in a low power design unless it's made with a 22nm SOI process and 2.5D attached to the AMD core chip.
The above are the choices and Sony must make a choice based on yield/cost. A low power design requires a lower clock and to get the same performance, more CUs which impacts yield with more elements that can fail. A High performance SoC can have a higher clock and fewer CUs which can increase yield. Sweetvar26 leaked Jaguar CPUs which indicates a low power design which also would be needed if Microsoft is serious about using the SoC in Cable Boxes.
With SOI the design could be high power (faster clock) and 20nm but only GloFlo using the ST microelectonics tech or IBM - GloFlo with technology they have not announced for any other product (Game Console volume can justify this especially if microsoft-sony.com applies to this).
Wasn't there talk of the nextbox being delayed due to parts? might be the ps4 but you never know anymore.
jeff_rigby
Banned
I don't know. IF there is no Xbox 361 then Sony is in slightly better shape to support XTV with true 1080P. Microsoft is in better shape with APPS for Windows 8 but the Industry standard will be Java and HTML4 (maybe HTML5 by 1st quarter 2013 when the standards are final) for XTV apps.
The better question is why no Xbox 361 which would have true 1080P and HDMI pass-thru. If you think of the leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint, Microsoft made a big point of stating the reasons a Xbox 360 could not support XTV coming in 2013 in all it's forms. That has not changed and the FCC is on track as far as I can tell.
Possibles:
1) The economy won't support it.
2) Xbox 720 can be produced so cheap that there is no need for a Xbox 360 price point.
A) QOS allows two SKUs with the cheaper filling the 360 price point and it has BC.
B) binned SoCs with too many GPU elements bad or too much memory on the MCM carrier bad, or Jaguar CPUs bad can be Xbox 360 only SoCs.
Who knows.....
-Pyromaniac-
Member
I had a weird dream and one of the many things that randomly happened in it is the 720 launched with a SKU that was $199 and included only 96GB in storage for some reason.
jeff_rigby
Banned
From the PS3 4K thread:
Sony PlayStation 3 Gets China 3C Certificate which is the first step in selling the PS3 to China.
Foxconn Coming to the U.S.
A SoC in a PS4 reduces the motherboard complexity and reduces Sony's need to have it produced in China. With that comes leverage, continuing to produce in China may be tied to a relaxing of restrictions.
With 3D stacking more and more will be packaged in one IC reducing labor costs and shifting where it might be economical to produce. TSMC in Taiwan may be further from the Manufacturing next generation and not as much of a factor.
Sony PlayStation 3 Gets China 3C Certificate which is the first step in selling the PS3 to China.
In any case the PS4 could be classified as a PC which is allowed in China. A PS3 fully supporting Linux and the PS4 supporting Linux is supposed to happen at the same time just after the PS4 is released. So first step is the China 3C certification and then fully supporting Linux on the PS3.http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngaudiosi/2012/11/07/researcher-confirms-sony-playstation-3-remains-banned-in-china/ said:
Foxconn Coming to the U.S.
A SoC in a PS4 reduces the motherboard complexity and reduces Sony's need to have it produced in China. With that comes leverage, continuing to produce in China may be tied to a relaxing of restrictions.
With 3D stacking more and more will be packaged in one IC reducing labor costs and shifting where it might be economical to produce. TSMC in Taiwan may be further from the Manufacturing next generation and not as much of a factor.
Leaked AMD Roadmap - Steamroller Delayed, Trinity on Rise
http://www.gamersnexus.net/news-pc/963-leaked-amd-roadmap-steamroller-delayed-trinity-on-rise
Ps4 delayed, Jeff?
http://www.gamersnexus.net/news-pc/963-leaked-amd-roadmap-steamroller-delayed-trinity-on-rise
Ps4 delayed, Jeff?
Probably for the best. This could allow Sony to put in a better GPU and take advantage of full 3D stacking.
Or they'll simply go with Jaguar. Given that most of the hard hitting computational element may be handled by GPU, Sony may not hold back for Steamroller. That said, I am not expecting PS Orbis to debut next year, rather Q1 2014 and as such perhaps it's quite possible that the first customized version of Steamroller or an aged and highly modified variant Jaguar would be integrated into it.
Well some people keep referencing that old document here, so why can't he? =P
Look at how people here hang on Jeff's every word and he's referenced back to that document plenty of times.
If I understood one of the more recent rumors correctly, the PS4 is supposedly still ahead even after a 6 month delay. IIRC according to the rumor, Sony has already sent chips out one or two times while MS was just getting ready to send out their first chips.