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[VGTech] Marvel's Avengers PS5 vs Xbox Series X vs Xbox Series S Frame Rate Comparison

VFXVeteran

VFXVeteran

Banned
abel empire said:
Developers have said ffor months you can go and listen to the remedy dev he explained the problems with making crossgen games and he said they suffer from decisions made in lastgen consoles the code, the engines the apis everything is hard to change and explained that the proper nextgen native game they are making will look and perform massivley different from how control preforms...
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Graphics engines aren't recreated every single time a new console generation comes out. Graphics engines are refined and new features are added over time. Last generation was the beginning of incorporating physically based shaders into games. That was the biggest change as far as graphics was concerned. This generation it's ray-tracing. Any other new trick done will most certainly be something that has been done before but possibly faster or a quality uptick from what we saw with PS4/X1. There is nothing new about CBR, 16x anisotropic filtering, texture streaming, tessellation, faster framerates, or image reconstruction techniques to get rid of aliasing. It's all been done before.

Some of you seem to forget that any cross-gen game you are looking at has been implemented first on agnostic hardware. Don't ignore what developers code in just because the PC isn't a third wheel in your console warring. I've talked to several game developers that use the PC for their platform development and innovate based on the PC's power and agnostic behavior which meshes well with their graphics engines that are also agnostic. I'm mentioning the PC because I want you guys to consider what 'could be new on the horizon' and realize all you have to do is look no further than what is coming out and being implemented on the PC hardware (which will most of the time be downported to the consoles). Cyberpunk was a perfect example of this. If CDPR made their game strictly for new consoles, you would at most see all the features done on the PC. The only thing new would be the ray-tracing.

I'm sure Nixxes wasn't limited by what they could do to the PS5/XSX simply because they ported to the PS4/X1 from the PC. The patch you guys got was indeed an implementation of higher spec hardware than last gen. I expect devs to refine what they couldn't do to previous consoles and perhaps, hopefully, take the increased power and give the artists a little more freedom to place things like shadow casting lights instead of baking out light maps.
 
VFXVeteran

VFXVeteran

Banned
Godfavor said:
Mesh/primitive shading
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That won't look any different than what you are seeing now. You will not notice a difference without it or with it. It's a performance optimization that gives better geometry pipeline than the weak tessellation paradigm developers used to have. You will not look at a game and immediately say "hey look! they are using mesh shading!" If you see far more complex geometry, it could probably have been done with the old tessellation pipeline or the new one. The mesh shading is an API change.. not a hardware change. Hardware changes are like the SSD streaming straight to VRAM or RT cores embedded within the GPU. Those are things a last gen console just can't do because of hardware limitations.
 
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G

Godfavor

Member
VFXVeteran said:
That won't look any different than what you are seeing now. You will not notice a difference without it or with it. It's a performance optimization that gives better geometry pipeline than the weak tessellation paradigm developers used to have. You will not look at a game and immediately say "hey look! they are using mesh shading!"
Click to expand...

They can also used it to seriously upgrade the graphic complexity of surfaces. Freeing up resources of triangles can go from single digits fps (from the old rasterization method) to 30-60.
This will become a night and day difference in IQ

Primitive/mesh shaders are hardware and cannot be enabled using GCN.
 
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VFXVeteran

VFXVeteran

Banned
Godfavor said:
No, they can use it to seriously upgrade the graphic complexity of surfaces. Freeing up resources of triangles can go from single digits fps (from the old rasterization method) to 60.
This will become a night and day difference in IQ
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I read the paper on it. It's a API change. And I'm glad you admit that it will speed up performance - not looks. You can't claim any game that doesn't use mesh shading isn't next-gen. That's completey silly. You guys are too hung up on whether a game can run on a last gen hardware and the answer is YES, it can! Would it be difficult? Sure. But it's not impossible unless it's a specific hardware change that has occured... like the SSD integrated into the GPU pipeline for direct access to VRAM.

You guys should seriously consider changing your definition of what's 'next-gen' or not.
 
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Godfavor

Member
VFXVeteran said:
I read the paper on it. It's a API change. And I'm glad you admit that it will speed up performance - not looks. You can't claim any game that doesn't use mesh shading isn't next-gen. That's completey silly. You guys are too hung up on whether a game can run on a last gen hardware and the answer is YES, it can! Would it be difficult? Sure. But it's not impossible unless it's a specific hardware change that has occured... like the SSD integrated into the GPU pipeline for direct access to VRAM.

You guys should seriously consider changing your definition of what's 'next-gen' or not.
Click to expand...

If you have the option to speed up the process to calculate vertexes by (for example) 6X, the developer can always use the same FPS cap to increase polygon output in the same margin.

Also it does not matter if it is an APi or hardware change. Previous consoles could not do it and PC follow their steps for designing games.

As these consoles support this feature, with DX12U PC development will do the same.

You are upgrading the vertex output by 6-10x per SECOND, all consoles and PC support this feature and it was not used before. For me it is a potential next gen wow factor
 
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VFXVeteran

VFXVeteran

Banned
Godfavor said:
If you have the option to speed up the process to calculate vertexes by (for example) 6X, the developer can always use the same FPS cap to increase polygon output in the same margin.
Click to expand...
Yes, he can. And all that tells you is that your system has more power to implement what's already been done before - high polygonal geometry. And for each of those tris, you need shaders to run them. The shaders pipeline is the bottleneck in all GPU systems. Not how many tris you can push through the pipeline.

Again, you still can't claim that Avengers patch or even Cyberpunk when it comes out isn't a next-gen title because it doesn't have mesh shaders. Demon Souls could have been done on a PS4 with scaled down tris/texture maps and it has very high polygonal geometry without mesh shaders.
 
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Bo_Hazem

Bo_Hazem

Banned
kourooshkabir said:
8mgKlV6.jpg
Click to expand...

PS5 killing performance again. Jim Ryan enjoying his crown.

MoSh.gif
 
G

Godfavor

Member
VFXVeteran said:
Yes, he can. And all that tells you is that your system has more power to implement what's already been done before - high polygonal geometry. And for each of those tris, you need shaders to run them. The shaders pipeline is the bottleneck in all GPU systems. Not how many tris you can push through the pipeline.

Again, you still can't claim that Avengers patch or even Cyberpunk when it comes out isn't a next-gen title because it doesn't have mesh shaders. Demon Souls could have been done on a PS4 with scaled down tris/texture maps and it has very high polygonal geometry without mesh shaders.
Click to expand...

That's true shaders could be a bottleneck here as there is more geometry to be shaded. According to the UE5 demo the texture data was not such a problem due to the tiny polygons that need to be textured. With such high volume of polygons textures are way less detailed so the GPU can follow. Also the SSD that both systems have could help feeding the GPU in real time. (SFS could further help with that).

I said that mesh shaders (one of the next gen features that have not been used yet) is a potential wow factor due to the detail level that they can bring to the table. I believe that the graphic quality in 1-2 years (pc included) will be higher than what we have now.
 
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Mr Moose

Mr Moose

Member
Godfavor said:
I said that mesh shaders (one of the next gen features that have not been used yet) is a potential wow factor due to the detail level that they can bring to the table. I believe that the graphic quality in 1-2 years (pc included) will be higher than what we have now.
Click to expand...
Mesh shaders have been a thing for a few years.
 
Concern

Concern

Member
Bigdrakegreenblood said:
Xbox guys trying to spin PS5 having better performance again. Stop it!
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SenaxxNL said:
Look at that... another thread with grown men fighting over which plastic box has 2 more fps or a few more pixels.... What would NeoGAF without it. Just try to enjoy the games instead of trying to convince a stranger on the internet which plastic box is better.
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Lo and behold 2 more "neo members" emerge that have been dormant for years after all the recent bans..... coincidence???

Stick around and find out lol
 
Pedro Motta

Pedro Motta

Member
VFXVeteran said:
I read the paper on it. It's a API change. And I'm glad you admit that it will speed up performance - not looks. You can't claim any game that doesn't use mesh shading isn't next-gen. That's completey silly. You guys are too hung up on whether a game can run on a last gen hardware and the answer is YES, it can! Would it be difficult? Sure. But it's not impossible unless it's a specific hardware change that has occured... like the SSD integrated into the GPU pipeline for direct access to VRAM.

You guys should seriously consider changing your definition of what's 'next-gen' or not.
Click to expand...
So a frame without mesh shading took 16.6ms to render, and with mesh shading took 10ms. What do you do with the performance gains? You increase the quality (looks as you call it). More speed performing tasks means more quality in realtime graphics. So yes, mesh shading will increase visual quality.
 
VFXVeteran

VFXVeteran

Banned
Pedro Motta said:
So a frame without mesh shading took 16.6ms to render, and with mesh shading took 10ms. What do you do with the performance gains? You increase the quality (looks as you call it). More speed performing tasks means more quality in realtime graphics. So yes, mesh shading will increase visual quality.
Click to expand...
It's not that simple. For every added triangle you add to the pipeline (ultimately it'll end up being tris), you have to shade them. You don't automatically get free shaded triangles just because you can make more of them faster.
 
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Pedro Motta

Pedro Motta

Member
VFXVeteran said:
It's not that simple. For every added triangle you add to the pipeline (ultimately it'll end up being tris), you have to shade them. You don't automatically get free shaded triangles just because you can make more of them faster.
Click to expand...
You don't have to squeeze the extra miliseconds just to add more polycount. You can balance that with shading operations as well. All in all, visual fidelity increases.
 
VFXVeteran

VFXVeteran

Banned
Pedro Motta said:
You don't have to squeeze the extra miliseconds just to add more polycount. You can balance that with shading operations as well. All in all, visual fidelity increases.
Click to expand...
Right and my point is that visual fidelity can increase regardless of whether you are using mesh shading or not. My point is that mesh shading is a great addition to the API (DX12 and Vulkan) but it's still going to be up to the team how they use it. You can literally have a game using mesh shaders and it could look worse in fidelity than a game like DS - which doesn't use mesh shaders. So you can't use a new feature like mesh shading and declare "any game that doesn't use it isn't next gen!!"
 
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j0hnnix

j0hnnix

Gold Member
OsirisBlack said:
Gotta be honest this is the best hulk game ever but I dont like anything outside of that. I have it on both systems and this game does look better on the Series X. its really back and forth this gen some games look better on X others look better on 5.
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I did finally get it on the SX and played it, also on the alpha for insiders so tried it with DV and damn it does look nice. Hulk just nukes everything, only played 2 hours of the campaign and had fun smashing crap.
 
Rea

Rea

Member
VFXVeteran said:
Right and my point is that visual fidelity can increase regardless of whether you are using mesh shading or not. My point is that mesh shading is a great addition to the API (DX12 and Vulkan) but it's still going to be up to the team how they use it. You can literally have a game using mesh shaders and it could look worse in fidelity than a game like DS - which doesn't use mesh shaders. So you can't use a new feature like mesh shading and declare "any game that doesn't use it isn't next gen!!"
Click to expand...
In Demon's Souls dev might be using PS5 custom GE to assist in pushing heavy geometry throughput, also with fast SSD. I guess that's why it has insanely details textures.
 
VFXVeteran

VFXVeteran

Banned
Rea said:
In Demon's Souls dev might be using PS5 custom GE to assist in pushing heavy geometry throughput, also with fast SSD. I guess that's why it has insanely details textures.
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I don't think so. The normal maps are definitely high res but not enough that you'd need SSD streaming. I just don't see it since the game is such a corridor game with limited visibility. If it was an open world game and having those high res textures, then yea, I'd be more inclined to believe they'd use the SSD-to-VRAM stream.
 
Rea

Rea

Member
VFXVeteran said:
I don't think so. The normal maps are definitely high res but not enough that you'd need SSD streaming. I just don't see it since the game is such a corridor game with limited visibility. If it was an open world game and having those high res textures, then yea, I'd be more inclined to believe they'd use the SSD-to-VRAM stream.
Click to expand...
They (blue point) literally said that they can increase fidelity due to ps5 fast ssd streaming, without the speed of PS5's fast SSD it won't looks as good.
 
Md Ray

Md Ray

Member
Bernd Lauert said:
Last gen was kinda bandwidth starved, so I get it. But this gen there is no excuse not to use 16xAF.
Click to expand...
Last-gen was bandwidth starved, so is this gen.

You have these additional power being put to use elsewhere like better texture assets, even texture filtering is upgraded but not bumped all the way up to 16x (which is fine, 8x is a good compromise), alpha transparencies are improved, better particle effects. On top of that, a huge upgrade to water rendering and - this is a big one - boost framerate while keeping it consistent at 60fps over last-gen machine. This is also why dynamic resolution window remains largely identical to Pro consoles on these new machines. Bandwidth was one of the smallest upgrades for the new consoles. 2x in the case of PS5 coming from PS4 Pro and 1.71x for the SX over One X.

Things like the new delta color compression should also be helping here, but if pushed enough, even the new consoles will hit their limits likely very quickly. It's still fundamentally the same design as last-gen consoles i.e. the bandwidth is shared between both components (CPU & GPU).
 
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VFXVeteran

VFXVeteran

Banned
Rea said:
They (blue point) literally said that they can increase fidelity due to ps5 fast ssd streaming, without the speed of PS5's fast SSD it won't looks as good.
Click to expand...
I'm not of the camp that thinks they said that. I believe they was talking about the PS5 SSD as a whole in a given scenario. Their game's texture maps are high res but they aren't so high res that for a given frame, they'd need to stream in the texture sizes. I do not think this is an UE5 demo type scenario. I wish I could reach out to them.. Maybe I can find out if I know someone that works there.

NOTE: Sent out an invite to Marco. Let's see if he'll respond.
 
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Rea

Rea

Member
VFXVeteran said:
I'm not of the camp that thinks they said that. I believe they was talking about the PS5 SSD as a whole in a given scenario. Their game's texture maps are high res but they aren't so high res that for a given frame, they'd need to stream in the texture sizes. I do not think this is an UE5 demo type scenario. I wish I could reach out to them.. Maybe I can find out if I know someone that works there.

NOTE: Sent out an invite to Marco. Let's see if he'll respond.
Click to expand...
It's not that i think they said that, they really did say that. If you want to know, search on YouTube DF interview with blue point dev.
 
M

MonarchJT

Banned
Rea said:
They (blue point) literally said that they can increase fidelity due to ps5 fast ssd streaming, without the speed of PS5's fast SSD it won't looks as good.
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If you think Demon soul remake couldn't be possible without ps5 ssd the marketing who obsessed people with it worked really, really well.

sometime seem that people never touched or watched games on pc
 
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Rea

Rea

Member
MonarchJT said:
If you think Demon soul remake couldn't be possible without ps5 ssd the marketing who obsessed people with it worked really, really well.

sometime seem that people never touched or watched games on pc
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I never said that it couldn't work on others, I said that if developers were to use HDD instead of Ssd it wouldn't looks as good as ps5. And yes, faster I/O throughput increases higher geometry throughput meaning more polygons and higher texture details in a scene.
Geez, some people really need to listen to developers talk instead of jerking off on Tflops bull craps.
 
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M

MonarchJT

Banned
Rea said:
I never said that it couldn't work on others, I said that if developers were to use HDD instead of Ssd it wouldn't looks as good as ps5. And yes, faster I/O throughput increases higher geometry throughput meaning more polygons in a scene.
Geez, some people really need to listen to developers talk instead of jerking on Tflops bull craps.
Click to expand...
don't know you, but I'm pretty fuckin sure (and is my opinion) that a pc with a slow (emphasize on slow) ssd compared to the ps5 one but paired with and a 3080 could run demon soul remake lot better than a ps5 if you ask me
who will ever know who is right
 
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Bernd Lauert

Bernd Lauert

Banned
Rea said:


Timestamped, listen carefully.
Did you really watch that video or you're just being ignorant and skip that part.
Click to expand...

Your timestamp is kinda revealing because it skips all context. I went back a minute to listen to the context again, and it confirms what I said. They're still using chunks, which they load in and out depending on where you are on the map. It's just that the chunks can have a lot more detail and can load much faster than on previous consoles. It's not a constant stream of 9 GB/s of geometry data, as some people here argue. I hope VetFX gets an official source to further clarify. Would be interesting.
 
Rea

Rea

Member
Bernd Lauert said:
Your timestamp is kinda revealing because it skips all context. I went back a minute to listen to the context again, and it confirms what I said. They're still using chunks, which they load in and out depending on where you are on the map. It's just that the chunks can have a lot more detail and can load much faster than on previous consoles. It's not a constant stream of 9 GB/s of geometry data, as some people here argue. I hope VetFX gets an official source to further clarify. Would be interesting.
Click to expand...
Wtf, they said that all the textures details and tessellations are streaming as you are turning around. You don't understand what you're saying.
 
W

Werewolfgrandma

Banned
Rea said:


Timestamped, listen carefully.
Did you really watch that video or you're just being ignorant and skip that part.
Click to expand...

They could use slow HDD on something with much more VRAM. The fast SSD is needed because of other deficiencies. Get rid of those and it's not required. (For fidelity)
 
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