Support NeoGAF

[Terra]

I must say, the latest days have been very interesting. It was pretty much what I expected after The Bone was revealed...as some kind of multimedia machine. I was a little positive at first, but then came shitstorm after shitstorm.

The voice of the community has surely spoken their opinion. I will enjoy to see how MS is going to approach this, if they do.

 

[Brimstone]

I hope consummers reject this digital feudalism. Also I hope that they reject the Free 2 Play trojan horse angle.

This isn't just Microsoft trying to turn gamers into serfs.

 

[JonathanPower]

so, like steam?

Yes, but unlike every console released till now.

 

[Terra]

Is it wring I kinda have fantasies about Kaz going up on stage saying PS4 most powerful games console, no online DRM, used games are allowed, free online and $400. He drops a mic and leaves to feedback and crowd applause.

That is pretty much all he needs to do, actually.
But I would not rule out that MS might have something more up their sleeve...they won't give up without a fight.

 

[SneakyStephan]

The point is you can support the publishers who don't use it.

Buy the box that enables it so you can support the dev that doesn't use it!
OR, OR OR OR, buy the box that doesn't enable this garbage and have 10x more choice for what to play and have your criteria for what to 'support' be how fun the game is, not who doesn't spit in your face.

Not being a consumer assfucking pile of evil does not automatically earn support, it's the frigging baseline.
If you think otherwise then I suggest you paypal me some money just for not being a drugdealer.
You think I've earned it.

 

[magenta]

Turning boxed products into services is what MS has been doing to a lot of their consumer grade offerings, look at what they did to Office. They are changing their business model.

 

[rvy]

That the XBO has an inherent, systemic DRM that prevents resale does not lead to conclusion that the PS4 has an inherent, systemic DRM.

Under Microsoft's system, while they try to foist any responsibility onto the publishers, it is at a basic system level that used games, lending and gifting are inhibited - due to a tying of physically purchased games to an account/console. Publishers are not opting into blocking used, they are simply given the option of opting out of blocking used; and aren't even given the option of opting out of 24-hour check-ins.

If Sony simply do not tie physically purchased game discs to an account/console then that in itself allows the above, and they can still let publishers do as they wish, subsequently, but at their own risk. They could in theory even have measures in place that publishers could use and it would still be a very big difference from a system where the default setting is that you cannot trade/lend/gift.

I never claimed that Microsoft's policies will lead to the PS4 having "an inherent, systemic DRM", Sony can do whatever they want to. I'm saying that publishers will make use of the DRM on both consoles because Sony is giving them the choice to do so and Microsoft is forcing them to.
Do you seriously believe that publishers, because they are forced by Microsoft into doing it (lol, publishers being forced into making profit), will refuse to implement the exact same thing for the PS4, especially when they are being given the option to?

Yes, I get it. The PS4 doesn't force publishers into a used game DRM system, the Xbox One does. I just do not believe that will make any difference. Publishers not making use of DRM on the PS4 as well will be the exception and not the norm.

Edit, oh my fucking God, I just lost a wall of text replying to 4 posts.
Fucking GAF. I'm sorry people, I'll reply later if I can remember all the crap I wrote.

 

[travisbickle]

Buy the box that enables it so you can support the dev that doesn't use it!
OR, OR OR OR, buy the box that doesn't enable this garbage and have 10x more choice for what to play.

Not being a consumer assfucking pile of evil does not automatically earn support, it's the frigging baseline.
If you think otherwise then I suggest you paypal me some money just for not being a drugdealer.
You think I've earned it.

To be honest, I was looking closely at the difference between MS and Sony. Outside of that sphere, buy a WiiU (they don't allow any publishers to push DRM?) or buy a PC and pick and choose publishers who don't use DRM.

 

[BigDug13]

My modem broke once and I didn't have the internet for three days. After one day Steam told me that I wasn't logged in and that I couldn't access off-line mode. I couldn't play any of my games for the other two days. I suspect I'm not the only something like this has happened to. I bet this kind of thing happens frequently with Steam.

So you suspect. Well that clears that up then. Steam and XBO are equal.

(I've gamed for six month naval deployments using steam offline. )

And on PC, there are ways to make sure your purchased games work offline. It's really not comparable. And I can always find non-steam games for my PC. Can I find non-MS-online required games for XBO?

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Microsoft didn't need to do this, regardless of what the publishers would have wanted. How does it benefit them to narrow down their target audience?

 

[Espada]

Microsoft didn't need to do this, regardless of what the publishers would have wanted. How does it benefit them to narrow down their target audience?

It benefits them immensely. They get to control the platform utterly. It's almost pure profit due to digital sales lacking the overhead of printing, shipping, retailer fees, and so on. They get a cut of every game sold on their machine, and if they make it so EVERY copy (new or used) nets them some money it's win-win for them.

They wouldn't do this unless there were substantial benefits. It's greedy and gross as hell.

 

[Billen]

My son has grown up with me showing him my old games on consoles/computers that I have found on flea markets etc. With the Xbox One, Microsoft aren't just removing our current right to use purchased products, they are also destroying our childrens heritage.

"Remember your dads favorite game now, for only $89.99!"

 

[shinra-bansho]

Do you seriously believe that publishers, because they are forced by Microsoft into doing it (lol, publishers being forced into making profit), will refuse to implement the exact same thing for the PS4, especially when they are being given the option to?

Yes, I get it. The PS4 doesn't force publishers into a used game DRM system, the Xbox One does. I just do not believe that will make any difference. Publishers not making use of DRM on the PS4 as well will be the exception and not the norm.

The PS4 may force publishers into used game DRM, it isn't confirmed yet. What I'm pointing out is the inherent difference between opt-in and opt-out. One of them at least provides consumers with a choice to support software that doesn't use it.

Do I think publishers will opt not to implement DRM? A lot of them didn't this gen. Because they do not like assuming undue risk and don't like potential competitive disadvantage against other publishers with similar offerings.

With the XBO/an opt-out system risk is collectively assumed by all publishers and the platform holder.

A publisher may wish to hedge their bets, "enabling" used trade on the XB1 and simply releasing a game as per normal on the PS4, and assess the outcome.

Meanwhile any publisher who makes a lot of sales in Japan won't restrict used, as that would be death in the Japanese marketplace, for instance, so I don't expect FFXV to restrict used for example.

 

[BigDug13]

I never claimed that Microsoft's policies will lead to the PS4 having "an inherent, systemic DRM", Sony can do whatever they want to. I'm saying that publishers will make use of the DRM on both consoles because Sony is giving them the choice to do so and Microsoft is forcing them to.
Do you seriously believe that publishers, because they are forced by Microsoft into doing it (lol, publishers being forced into making profit), will refuse to implement the exact same thing for the PS4, especially when they are being given the option to?

Yes, I get it. The PS4 doesn't force publishers into a used game DRM system, the Xbox One does. I just do not believe that will make any difference. Publishers not making use of DRM on the PS4 as well will be the exception and not the norm.

Edit, oh my fucking God, I just lost a wall of text replying to 4 posts.
Fucking GAF. I'm sorry people, I'll reply later if I can remember all the crap I wrote.

But why are you supporting these practices? Why is all this ok for you? Do you always so easily give away your consumer rights? It seems like you really think this new direction is one we should just accept. Are you saying we should just accept it and buy the XBO because publishers may do their own DRM on the two other competing machines? What is it that you're trying to convince me to do?

 

[Doomshine]

For the love of God Sony, I hope you are paying attention, is this what you want?

 

[semiconscious]

My son has grown up with me showing him my old games on consoles/computers that I have found on flea markets etc. With the Xbox One, Microsoft aren't just removing our current right to use purchased products, they are also destroying our childrens heritage.

"Remember your dads favorite game now, for only $89.99!"

this's why the fact that the guy who started this thread yesterday, in which he encourages people to relax, & enjoy the games they love, just happens to have a 'skies of arcadia' avatar struck me as being supremely ironic/short-sighted ...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=579893

 

[Surfheart]

Yep, just Sony fanboys on message boards, yup

This is really becoming a huge story

Brad out of touch?

 

[FunnyBunny]

It's so sad (for me) I may choose the PS4 over the ONE. I will miss Forza so very much.

 

[Jac_Solar]

"Disk installs onto the console and you must be internet connected and create and online account, the internet needs to be on so it can check every 24 hours that you are an authentic user, if he wants to share it with a friend the friend needs an online account and they have to add each other through the online service and wait 30 days. Once the game is registered to you participating publishers will let certain stores trade them in for a predetermined value, check the list on xbox.com"

They must have focus tested this device. Did everyone they hired simply understand it right away, or were these "features" still on lockdown, I wonder?

Maybe the features were still being worked on, and thus not available, or techies *guided* them throughout to make the results look good to the investors. I also assume that there are more restrictions and horrible rules on the Xbox One that they haven't revealed yet or obscured with some ambiguous wording. It seems likely that, if there's more, they'll mention it in the middle of their E3 games announcements in hopes that the press won't care that much about it.

 

[Jac_Solar]

So you suspect. Well that clears that up then. Steam and XBO are equal.

(I've gamed for six month naval deployments using steam offline. )

And on PC, there are ways to make sure your purchased games work offline. It's really not comparable. And I can always find non-steam games for my PC. Can I find non-MS-online required games for XBO?

Steam is somewhat bad, but Xbox One is horrible if it comes with a fraction of what Microsoft has said so far. It'll probably come with everything they've said, and more bad stuff. Steam is run by Valve, which is an independent company that tries to make a profit AND please customers.

They genuinely do *seem* to care about customers and gaming, at least by a significant margin compared to pretty much every publisher in the console retail business. Valve is nothing like those, and thus Steam shouldn't be compared, at all, to what console publishers would do.

The Xbox One would be run by the biggest, most wealthy publishers and Microsoft -- companies that have never cared about customers, and is constantly doing bad stuff just to make a minor profit. Does anyone think they would suddenly care if they got to completely control the market and gaming options? Prices would most likely go up, certainly not down. Look at some of their reactions to Steam sales.

A console is also a completely closed platform, and doesn't have the same options as PC does.

Consoles are also supposed to be simplistic gaming machines -- turn it on, play. Not turn it on, customize, install/setup internet, update OS, update whatever else that comes with the machine, install game, update game.
Updates for games are good, but mandatory updates should be a unique occurrence. Games should be much more refined at release, so that people don't have to install several updates just to get an enjoyable experience.

In any case, none of that really matters, since 2 wrongs don't make a right. It's bad enough that Steam is controlling the entire PC market, and there isn't a used/rental games market.

Xbox One basically tries to force all the negatives of PC gaming into the console space, with none of the positives.

 

[HK-47]

Steam is somewhat bad, but Xbox One is horrible if it comes with a fraction of what Microsoft has said so far. It'll probably come with everything they've said, and more bad stuff. Steam is run by Valve, which is an independent company that tries to make a profit AND please customers.

They genuinely do *seem* to care about customers and gaming, at least by a significant margin compared to pretty much every publisher in the console retail business. Valve is nothing like those, and thus Steam shouldn't be compared, at all, to what console publishers would do.

The Xbox One would be run by the biggest, most wealthy publishers and Microsoft -- companies that have never cared about customers, and is constantly doing bad stuff just to make a minor profit. Does anyone think they would suddenly care if they got to completely control the market and gaming options? Prices would most likely go up, certainly not down. Look at some of their reactions to Steam sales.

A console is also a completely closed platform, and doesn't have the same options as PC does.

Consoles are also supposed to be simplistic gaming machines -- turn it on, play. Not turn it on, customize, install/setup internet, update OS, update whatever else that comes with the machine, install game, update game.
Updates for games are good, but mandatory updates should be a unique occurrence. Games should be much more refined at release, so that people don't have to install several updates just to get an enjoyable experience.

In any case, none of that really matters, since 2 wrongs don't make a right. It's bad enough that Steam is controlling the entire PC market, and there isn't a used/rental games market.

Xbox One basically tries to force all the negatives of PC gaming into the console space, with none of the positives.

Oh you were doing so well until this.

 

[Jac_Solar]

Oh you were doing so well until this.

I meant digital space, and it does, more or less. Might have been exaggerating a bit (Busted!), though, as there are alternatives (GOG, Gamersgate GMG, etc.), which won't exist on the console at all, simply because PC is open and consoles are closed and each are owned by individual companies, unlike PC's. Microsoft, and perhaps some of the publishers, would be in complete control. But I dislike the fact that Steam is such a massively powerful influence.

 

[MDX]

Microsoft’s Xbox One: Owning Your Video Games Is So 1994

The article assumes that XboxOne will be the lead console
establishing this new paradigm. There is no proof of this.

There might be a big backlash where Nintendo ends up
profitable and prepared for the next generation, while the
hubris of MS, and possibly Sony, will have them become
the next Sega & Atari in the video game industry.

 

[jamesinclair]

It is also on the front page of Forbes

The timing is fantastic.

No thanks on letting the NSA into my living room conversations.

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

Yup, but you're still being charged as if it were a product. Oh, and also as a service, in order to access the online component.

Worst of both worlds.

This is when voting with your wallet needs to enter the picture.

 

[hiphopgamer]

Was up Gaffers 1luv and god bless. let me know what you think about this response video to Microsoft XBOX ONE and the F'ed up DRM situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9C_dIReKcg

 

[Solal]

Hiphopgamer-> I love your comments and your sincerity man.
I especially appreciated the part where you say this is not gaming culture and the one where you say; "where is the guve and take"?

So true.

 

[S¡mon]

This (negative) media attention is only good for Microsoft. No, it is not positive, but now people know about the existence of the Xbox One.

As the famous saying goes: any press is good press.

 

[ambientmystic]

so, like steam?

A junior member of an account made in 2010.

6 posts to his name. 3 of them made right here, in this very thread, during the past day or so.

1 of them used to post this inane remark used for misdirection in threads highlighting the negative aspects of the Xbone which has been broken down in so many other threads over and over again by other members.

Sigh. The shills are getting more and more obvious.

 

[ThusZarathustra]

Bish must be on a break. Makes me wonder how many old accounts these marketing firm slugs have made over the years.

 

[nesboy43]

It's interesting to see people saying "PS4 No DRM" when nothing has been confirmed. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if Sony did have similar practices to Microsoft, it seems likely. Everyone is just hopeful they won't have DRM. Yet, there is one modern console already released to the market that has such good games announced for it that people are already begging for ports and there is no DRM what-so-ever.

I also hope that Sony won't have DRM so I can have more than just a Wii U to play but if not it is their loss.

 

[Nafai1123]

Buying at retail isn't the same as buying digital...but one should be able to find plenty of "sales" at retail. (Buy 2 get one free, buy one get the other 50% off...you see these deals frequently at retail)

Retail means you get a physical disc but I don't understand what you mean by rights for a product you own. Are you referring to a license to play the game...because we certainly never owned the game we had a physical copy of.

I also don't understand what you mean by forcing to install for no good reason. I install all of my PS3/360 games simply because it's more convenient and cuts down on loading time. Isn't there forced install of games via steam? Does steam allow one to simply run an executable of a game without actually going through some sort of installation process?

This is such bullshit. You're not going to last long here.

 

[Ding-Ding]

This (negative) media attention is only good for Microsoft. No, it is not positive, but now people know about the existence of the Xbox One.

As the famous saying goes: any press is good press.

Are you seriously saying that "Xbox One" & "Anti-consumer piece of shit" being said in the same sentence is a good thing for MS?

 

[as1m]

This (negative) media attention is only good for Microsoft. No, it is not positive, but now people know about the existence of the Xbox One.

As the famous saying goes: any press is good press.

But the mainstream press have been fairly critical (I think I haven't read all reports on the list), and if the public can read then its not good press.

 

[Manmademan]

Well I don't think anyone is implying steam and whatever is going on w/ Xbox one are identical...but clearly there are similarities, no?

Maybe its more accurate to say, like Steam minus the mandated 24 hour check in period.

Still not accurate, chief. The reasons why are very well documented at this point. You'd have to be willfully ignorant to be unaware at this point.

The "but..but steam!" argument is a nonstarter.

Buying at retail isn't the same as buying digital...but one should be able to find plenty of "sales" at retail. (Buy 2 get one free, buy one get the other 50% off...you see these deals frequently at retail)

Retail means you get a physical disc but I don't understand what you mean by rights for a product you own. Are you referring to a license to play the game...because we certainly never owned the game we had a physical copy of.

I also don't understand what you mean by forcing to install for no good reason. I install all of my PS3/360 games simply because it's more convenient and cuts down on loading time. Isn't there forced install of games via steam? Does steam allow one to simply run an executable of a game without actually going through some sort of installation process?

Ah, yes. "willful ignorance" is a very nice way of putting it.

 

[semiconscious]

This (negative) media attention is only good for Microsoft. No, it is not positive, but now people know about the existence of the Xbox One.

As the famous saying goes: any press is good press.

tell that to lance armstrong ...

for an unknown attempting to become a known? maybe. for an established entity, no, that's not how it works...

 

[rubius01]

It is also on the front page of Forbes

You know you fucked up when more people are interested in you than the government spying on its own citizens.

 

[nubbe]

This (negative) media attention is only good for Microsoft. No, it is not positive, but now people know about the existence of the Xbox One.

As the famous saying goes: any press is good press.

Microsoft is hardly like by anyone

Being in bed with NSA and launching anti consumer products that could spy on you is never going to be good press

 

[DangerMouse]

Was up Gaffers 1luv and god bless. let me know what you think about this response video to Microsoft XBOX ONE and the F'ed up DRM situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9C_dIReKcg

Really good stuff.

 

[QaaQer]

This (negative) media attention is only good for Microsoft. No, it is not positive, but now people know about the existence of the Xbox One.

As the famous saying goes: any press is good press.

Yeah, Union Carbide loved all the free press Bhopal got them.

 

[alr1ght]

Top story on google tech news

Perfect picture too

 

[Alpende]

I'm loving all those big newssites reporting on the X bone in a negative way instead of the usual positive way.

 

[sechsterangriff]

Retail means you get a physical disc but I don't understand what you mean by rights for a product you own. Are you referring to a license to play the game...because we certainly never owned the game we had a physical copy of.

Wilfully ignorance, there is not other way to describe this. Keep repeating that to yourself if makes you feel better...
Not owning the IP is not the same as owning a copy of it.
I own copies of my games like I own books, music, movies and whatever. There's already a "licence" that legally limits what I can do with those works in order to protect the IP holder legitimate rights (piracy). But make no mistake, this is NOT what Microsoft is proposing.

 

[KennyLinder]

Shop assistants are going to have a ball explaining this to customers. So much confusion and complexity.

 

[soulassssns]

So you suspect. Well that clears that up then. Steam and XBO are equal.

(I've gamed for six month naval deployments using steam offline. )

And on PC, there are ways to make sure your purchased games work offline. It's really not comparable. And I can always find non-steam games for my PC. Can I find non-MS-online required games for XBO?

Same here

MSFT has truly screwed up this time.

 

[KnightSlyder]

They don't have the balls to force publishers into a model that will make consumers happy. They'll just hide under the "It's up to the publisher" option for a few more months to avoid total backlash.

Seems like, since the eighties, only Nintendo has had the balls to stand against third party dominance. No wonder they made so many enemies...

I know for sure it did not sit well with EA in the early days to have their game production levels throttled by Nintendo.

 

[pubba]

You guys need to put emotion aside and see the big picture here.

Do you really think Sony won't copy some of these 'features' if MS go ahead with them?

At the end of the day, it's all about a room full of suits, looking at dollar signs.

The difference that this used game stuff will make to the publishers bottom line is going to be huge.

Money talks. Publishers like money. Happy publishers = more 3rd party support for the console that provides them with more money.

Sony will definitely be doing something similar to all the stuff that MS is getting roasted for. I'm sorry, but that's the future of the industry that we have all helped to create. It's become a monster, and that hurts me right in the feels.

I remember plugging in a PONG console, and BAM! The game was right there. Play it, enjoy it, share with friends. It was MINE to do what I wanted. Happy days.

 

[pargonta]

I'm sorry, but that's the future of the industry

not if the xbox one doesn't sell. nor the ps4 if it has this tech. crash>dystopian future

edit: i'm not sure ive posted in here... it's all blended together... but the wsj article is pretty good.

 

[Saint Gregory]

The crazy thing is that MS might have been able to get away with this if they had slowly transitioned to this kind of system bit by bit over the course of the next gen. How could they possibly have thought that dropping this kind of bomb on gamers overnight would be a workable idea?

 

[KnightSlyder]

I remember plugging in a PONG console, and BAM! The game was right there. Play it, enjoy it, share with friends. It was MINE to do what I wanted. Happy days.

Hear Here!

As an added bonus, at no extra cost to the consumer, that console still plays today!

Microsoft has 'permision' to take notes...