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Was there implied rape in Bayonetta 1 and 2? *spoilers*

OmegaDL50

OmegaDL50

Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1lxYIc7sE4&t=0m35s

It's no different then the screen fade beatdown attacks that is prominately used in some Anime tropes. The beatdown being so vicious it's shown as little more as a screen fading to white or black and the blows as sparks / flashes of light on screen.

This was used in Akuma's Raging Demon, Same for Orochi's Marukare in KOF97.

Going so far to call it a "Rape" attack is just looking too much into it.
 
L

Log4Girlz

Member
Resilient said:
Is it that ridiculous to ask about consent when you guys are calling rape?

Like the other dude said. I don't think you know what rape is. She very well could be exhausted after being beaten, or some sex during the attack which maybe she consented for. Either way we have no way of knowing. All there is are cues based on tropes. My theory has just as much weight as yours. People can be exhausted after sex you know.

And I'm NOT saying she asked for it either so don't even bother bringing that up. I Genuinely want someone to prove that it's rape without saying "but the cigarette/covering the butt!"
Click to expand...

Its a pretty strong implication. There is no good reason to show her in the floor naked, covering her ass the way she did and have the boss smoking a cigarette. I am baffled at why you are being so obtuse.
 
J

Jackson

Member
Smoking after sex is a TV Trope -- http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SmokingHotSex

He hoists her up by her hands, she "seems" helpless.
Akuma super plays to hide the deed
She's naked covering her butt in a fetal-like position. He's smoking acting smug.

Yeah... Seems like a tasteless rape joke to me. With the Akuma super hits thing they are definitely making a joke and not a statement. It's just a very poorly made one.
 
G

Gears

Member
If there was a longer cut after the action symbols pop up (implying she's being attacked), I could see it since a longer pause between could represent time passing. Otherwise it seemed like he hit her a bunch and it shows the results.
 
M

MormaPope

Banned
Ninjimbo said:
Bayonetta as a whole can be described as tasteless. It's pretty much one of the main reasons the game continues to bomb. People that play and love the game will probably see it as a joke and won't jump to any weird conclusions. They know the game revels in sexually charged imagery but it's always tongue in cheek. Really, it's mostly harmless when you take in all the context. Rodin and Bayo are friends and equals. Rodin is doing what Bayo would do to him. Can you not see Bayo doing something like that to him?

You could get offended by it, I guess. That's Bayonetta for you though. Standards go out the window.
Click to expand...

Pulled that context straight from your ass. Bayonetta 1 sold over a million units, which is decent for a brand new character action IP but it wasn't super successful financially. Bayonetta 2 was released on a console that mirrors Dreamcast and Gamecube sales. It doesn't sell well because of its risque and flamboyant nature? The most revered gaming franchise revolves around stealing cars and killing hundreds of people.
 
J

Jobbs

Banned
OmegaDL50 said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1lxYIc7sE4&t=0m35s

It's no different then the screen fade beatdown attacks that is prominately used in some Anime tropes. The beatdown being so vicious it's shown as little more as a screen fading to white or black and the blows as sparks / flashes of light on screen.

This was used in Akuma's Raging Demon, Same for Orochi's Marukare in KOF97.

Going so far to call it a "Rape" attack is just looking too much into it.
Click to expand...


FatSpotlessEider.gif


yeah, it's a real fucking stretch to associate this imagery with anything sexual.
 
L

Lernaean

Banned
Thanks for this thread. Reminded me i have to farm for that ticket as i have neglected it.
I'll give it a go when i'm back home.
Cheers.
 
C

Clefargle

Member
I'm not sure where I fall on this one, I think it implies sex for sure. What I'm wondering is if this is supposed to imply rough sex between the two. I mean, they're relationship had been sexually charged, (but what Bayo character doesn't have a sexually charged relationship with her?) I really don't know, but let's not jump to conclusions either way here.
 
Q

Qblivion

Member
Doesn't matter if it wasn't intended to look like rape. What matters is that it does.

Imagine a person who suffers PTSD, and the sight of oranges triggers panic attacks, intense fear, etc.

Now imagine grabbing a small grapefruit, painting it orange and throwing it at this person.

You see where I am going?
 
F

foxuzamaki

Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
At most it was implied rough sex that they had with rodin being the one giving it instead of taking it.
 
R

RecursiveFault

Banned
Qblivion said:
Doesn't matter if it wasn't intended to look like rape. What matters is that it does.
Click to expand...
Now the argument is authorial intent vs content.

I always care far more about authorial intent. Individual interpretations don't hold water for me, but you guys are entitled to your own opinions on that.
 
A

Afrocious

Member
InfiniteNine said:
Well that's kinda how I always interpreted it but I can see why you would think what you do.
Click to expand...

Yeah, like I definitely see the powered down statement, but you'd think we really need to have a scene like that when lategame bayonetta gets here butt kicked in cutscenes with her clothes on.

Jesus I feel conflicted.
 
I

IcyStorm

Member
random25 said:
Then make a more concrete proof that it is indeed an act of rape then. I'm not saying that "it is fine to have rape because it's an M-rated game" so you're a bit stretching there. I'm just saying that people are jumping into conclusions that it was rape when those who have played it (or most of them, since the fact that it took a very long time for someone to bring this up) did not see it as that.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was referring to someone else with the comment about the M-rated excuse. But you still ignored my question that did directly target your post.

You know that nothing I can offer you will be "concrete" proof to you. There's no on-screen depiction of sexual assault because of the screen going white.

And the most discussion I've seen on this dates back to October, where people have discussed this (over Twitter, Tumblr, and reddit), especially right around Bayonetta 2's release. And it's not like most people saw this animation; Rodin is a secret boss and if you consider how many people 1) played Bayonetta in the first place (which probably isn't a lot considering the sales of the first game) and 2) bought the Platinum Ticket in-game to actually fight him, it's a good chance that discussion of this never had a chance to happen if most people who saw this attack animation interpreted it to not be rape.
 
N

not psycho

Member
Afrocious said:
Folks are mentioning context and I'm having a hard time even seeing it in any sort of context the games provide.
Click to expand...


The context is the game infusing the fighting with sexual imagery and references.

It's basically the same joke as a guy and a girl beating up a group of enemies, and afterward one lights a cigarette and asks "was it good for you?" They are applying sexual references and imagery to fighting and the enjoyment of fighting.

The problem is, what does it look like when you apply sexual references and imagery to a male fighting and beating up a woman? Yeah. That's why it is so uncomfortable.
 
J

Jobbs

Banned
I can't even believe the number of people in this thread who look at this imagery and explain it as "probably not anything sexual".

every polygon has to be crafted. every texture, every animation. nothing looks like anything by accident. this is a sexual image, and it's a suggestion of rape. I don't care who you are. if you say otherwise you're being deliberately or accidently stupid.
 
R

Resilient

Member
pakkit said:
this isn't a trial by jury.

is the imagery in OP evocative of a sexual assault? if your answer is "yes" or "maybe," then we've got a discussion in our midst. if your answer is "no," i might question your understanding of tropes (e.g. cigarette smoking as a followup to sex, the hand protecting the backside as a cue for sexual assault).
Click to expand...

We only have a discussion if my answer is yes or maybe?

Yeah I'm done with you.
 
M

Mistouze

user-friendly man-cashews
I really don't get how some people don't understand how there's rape implied in that shit. You gotta blind *inside* your damn head not to see it.

My opinion of Bayonetta games changed since I saw that shit, pretty disapointing really. Not going to bother trying to defend the game for not being sexist or some shit now.
 
Monocle

Monocle

Member
maneil99 said:
Disgusting, as someone dealing with a close friend and rape I will not be touching this game, was debating rebuying a Wii-U for a few exclusives, maybe not now.
Click to expand...
I don't know if this is a joke post, but if you're going to simply assume that one image from a secret boss fight represents the game, you don't deserve to play anything as great as Bayonetta 2 anyway.

Rainy said:
Kamiya responses

https://twitter.com/PG_kamiya/status/539689955937624064 https://twitter.com/PG_kamiya/status/539690919964835841

Essentially

@NarettRoman really need to lose her clothes in these attacks?

Kamiya: Sure. Hair's symbol of power. That's Rodin's lethal blow, so Bayo loses all her power temporarily. Nothing's weird.
Click to expand...

scoobidoo112 said:
No, no, it HAS to be rape, otherwise we have nothing to be upset about! He must be lying! /s

Well, case closed.
Click to expand...
Agreed! I choose to ignore Hideki Kamiya, creator of Bayonetta and director of the first game and #1 authority on the Bayonetta universe, because that attack can be interpreted in a much more sensational and offensive way!
 
C

Coffee Dog

Banned
not psycho said:
The context is the game infusing the fighting with sexual imagery and references.

It's basically the same joke as a guy and a girl beating up a group of enemies, and afterward one lights a cigarette and asks "was it good for you?" They are applying sexual references and imagery to fighting and the enjoyment of fighting.

The problem is, what does it look like when you apply sexual references and imagery to a male fighting and beating up a woman? Yeah. That's why it is so uncomfortable.
Click to expand...

This

They probably should have just kept bayo's clothes on during the attack, to avoid the uncomfortable imagery
 
C

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Afrocious said:
Yeah, like I definitely see the powered down statement, but you'd think we really need to have a scene like that when lategame bayonetta gets here butt kicked in cutscenes with her clothes on.

Jesus I feel conflicted.
Click to expand...
In both games she gets hurt and near death but experiences no loss of clothing, what does the bayonetta 2 game over screen look like? This would be the only instance where loss of power=naked if Kamiya didn't just give an off the cuff answer.
 
S

SlaughterX

Banned
Gears said:
If there was a longer cut after the action symbols pop up (implying she's being attacked), I could see it since a longer pause between could represent time passing. Otherwise it seemed like he hit her a bunch and it shows the results.
Click to expand...

Maybe he's just really "quick"? Ok I'm going to bed.
 
P

PensivePen

Member
I don't think it's necessarily meant to imply rape myself, but I can see why people would. It certainly looks very sketchy.

MormaPope said:
I can't find anything stating that the fight is non canon.
Click to expand...

The act of being hit with a particular move in a fight cannot be considered canon or non-canon.
 
B

Benzychenz

Member
InfiniteNine said:
Seriously what the hell is wrong with you?
Click to expand...

I like how everyone is deleting the second half of my post in these quotes :\

Yes, rape is bad, it is not something to joke about.

I guess I just don't agree that some things are 100% taboo and need to be censored. People can make whatever they want to make in art.
 
S

sploatee

formerly Oynox Slider
I can understand why several posters find this very uncomfortable, but I do agree with the posters who say that context is everything.

My own view is that we are talking about a game where sexual violence is part of its visual language, that involves a witch with hair for clothes who can turn into a panther fighting gigantic angels on top of a jet plane. I'm not disparaging those who find the imagery uncomfortable, but I have a hard time believing that this is in the game maliciously or that there is any intent to legitimise / trivialise rape. When you've spent hours spanking, whipping and generally humiliating creatures using your hair, you do kind of know what you're in for.

So, ultimately, I'm not offended.
 
A

Auto-Reply

Member
You here for business, or pleasure? Either way, I'll hook you up.

To add to what people already explained, the reason why there was never a big outcry about this is because the majority simply doesn't care about this game.

People that do, not even all of them know that this fight exists in the game as it is not part of a regular playthrough, it's a secret boss.
People that care enough to get to this fight probably know about Rodin and the context, people that don't care will simply not see this fight as it takes effort to get to it and they sure as hell wont search the internet for secrets about a game they don't care about.

As always, I wouldn't mind if this makes the round on various sites like Kotaku, it's gotten a little quiet around Bayo2, could need a little media attention again... doubt it helps the sales much though, unfortunately!
 
J

Jobbs

Banned
are you imagining a scenario where game makers put a cheeky rape reference into their game then own up to it when asked? especially a notorious troll like kamiya?

the problem with all of you people saying it's not intended to be a rape reference is that I have eyes and vision. I can't even believe the amount of cognitive dissonance present in this thread.
 
S

Scrooge McDuck

Member
Mrgoodwil said:
Are we ignoring the fact that Rodin smokes all the time during both of the game, and that Bayo loses her clothes all the time during the game?

Apparently Street Fighter references are totally rape, and saying it's a street fighter reference is somehow dismissive.

If you want to make a mountain out of a molehill, feel free, but I doubt anyone who's calling this out understands the context.
Click to expand...

The developers have a choice to not put that specific imagery in the game. They could just make a straight reference. Bayonetta could simply not be naked. Rodin could simply not smoke. Just doing that wouldn't detract from the characterization and canon if that's what you're concerned about.

But they did, and I'd be having a very hard time believing that they just unwittingly, coincidentally came up with those pose and direction.
 
M

MormaPope

Banned
PensivePen said:
I don't think it's necessarily meant to imply rape myself, but I can see why people would. It certainly looks very sketchy.



The act of being hit with a particular move in a fight cannot be considered canon or non-canon.
Click to expand...

I'm talking about the fight itself.
 
R

RM8

Member
Bayonetta, from my perspective as someone who hasn't played the games, seems indeed like a very tasteless series theme-wise and it does prevent me from giving it a chance. I want to believe Kamiya, but I'm still not buying this game (not only because of this particular scene, but everything as a whole). I wish Nintendo had funded another series to be honest.
 
C

CommandThrower

Member
I never fought Rodin in either Bayonetta game, so seeing these moves in action is new to me.


After seeing both, honestly...I'm not offended. Given all the sexual content in these games, seeing the aftermath of those moves is kind of funny.
 
D

DarkLordMalik

Member
Jobbs said:
FatSpotlessEider.gif


yeah, it's a real fucking stretch to associate this imagery with anything sexual.
Click to expand...
In term of game mechanics, it makes sense.

Like Kamiya explained, Bayonetta's power is her hair. She loses her power after this attack, and you can see that the life gauge is completely depleted in the game.

How the hell can this be associated with an implied "rape attack"?
 
Grizzlyjin

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
This thread is interesting just for the simple fact that this is still sailing over people's head. Yes, it's a reference to Akuma's raging demon. Yes, it's also implying that something sexual happen during the hits. Kinda surprised that the smoking afterwards would sail over an adult's head. Two people smoking a cigarette in bed together is basically a PG way of saying "Sex just happened!"

And if Bayonetta wasn't the flavor of the year, people wouldn't be stretching so hard to defend it. I'm not saying anything should come of it, but we can at least acknowledge it as being a bit tasteless. Not shocking, Bayonetta is trashy at times. Not shocked that it would go in direction that might make some people uncomfortable.
 
A

Afrocious

Member
sploatee said:
When you've spent hours spanking, whipping and generally humiliating creatures using your hair, you do kind of know what you're in for.
Click to expand...

I still don't see the reason why we need to see Bayonetta on the ground like that, regardless of 'what she knows she's in for.'
 
R

Resilient

Member
Jobbs said:
are you imagining a scenario where game makers put a cheeky rape reference into their game then own up to it when asked? especially a notorious troll like kamiya?

the problem with all of you people saying it's not intended to be a rape reference is that I have eyes and vision. I can't even believe the amount of cognitive dissonance present in this thread.
Click to expand...

There it is folks. The first "the creator is wrong" of the thread.

Seriously, you should start believing it. Maybe it's people with your opinions who are so far off base here to just instantly assume it's rape.
 
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