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[Raven117]

No, I don't. Do you have any evidence of this slippery slope?

Lol at those links.

You think that's not able to happen here because why?

Actually. You know what? You are right. You dont have to read it. A\

People that are wiser than the position that you have taken already have, understand what's at stake and the governance of a democracy, and will argue and rule accordingly protecting this right.

So, yeah. Don't read it. Other people have done it for you.

 

[Moonlight]

i like how we've moved the scaremongering terms about the antifa to 'they're communists and socialists'

it's like, well. yeah.

 

[SummitAve]

BLM is disliked because people are scared of seeing a large amount of black people standing up for themselves and their communities

Where I am specifically antifa have taken advantage of the peaceful protests and demonstrations after the deaths of unarmed black men. Blending in with the crowd, hanging back, hurling stuff, and then running. It gets associated by the media and the right as part of the protests in general.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

I think you need to read the Constitution and then look at every totalitarian state including Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. Then comeback here and tell me you want the government involved at all with speech.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Soviet_Union

https://www.ushmm.org/outreach/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007677

right so you pick two totalitarian states, one of which is literally Nazi Germany as your arguments.

Not like, you know, modern day Germany which has hate speech laws. That's not some totalitarian shithole.

Slippery Slope is a fallacy for a reason, no matter how much pearl clutching about nazis free speech you do is going to change that fact.

 

[Nafai1123]

You think that's not able to happen here because why?

Actually. You know what? You are right. You dont have to read it. A\

People that are wiser than the position that you have taken already have, understand what's at stake and the governance of a democracy, and will argue and rule accordingly protecting this right.

So, yeah. Don't read it. Other people have done it for you.

I would love for you to address the fact that numerous existing democracies have hate-speech laws in place without turning into totalitarian hellholes.

 

[Raven117]

Thankfully Antifa are almost exclusively Libertarian Socialists of one form or another (sans influx of liberals in the US post-Trump), so they don't trust the government full stop. Which is exactly why they engage in and advocate non-state direct action.

Exactly my point. They have chose to exercise their free speech right. Sometimes, those demonstrations do become violent. That is a choice for each person to make if they choose to break that law and be held accountable for it.

 

[Psychoward]

right so you pick two totalitarian states, one of which is literally Nazi Germany as your arguments.

Not like, you know, modern day Germany which has hate speech laws. That's not some totalitarian shithole.

Slippery Slope is a fallacy for a reason, no matter how much pearl clutching about nazis free speech you do is going to change that fact.

I would love for you to address the fact that numerous existing democracies have hate-speech laws in place without turning into totalitarian hellholes.

yup, same nonsense arguments for why gun control works for europe and australia but somehow magically won't work in america

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Party A: "Bigotry is cool and good"

Party B: "Bigotry is bad and I will resist you"

Me, a genius: "You are both as bad as each other"

*furiously masturbates onto own face*

 

[Ozigizo]

You think that's not able to happen here because why?

Actually. You know what? You are right. You dont have to read it. A

People that are wiser than the position that you have taken already have, understand what's at stake and the governance of a democracy, and will argue and rule accordingly protecting this right.

So, yeah. Don't read it. Other people have done it for you.

You're living in a fantasy land. Speech is already restricted here, and you continue to have 0 evidence beyond your feelings.


If you continue to avoid answering these questions, then why are you even here?

 

[Raven117]

I would love for you to address the fact that numerous existing democracies have hate-speech laws in place without turning into totalitarian hellholes.

Only do to the restraint of the government. I don't want them to have that power.

You don't think in today's climate that Trump and the Republicans wouldn't brand ANTIFA, BLM or what have you as hate speech, and limit their rights?

Truly, you don't think they would?

 

[Psychoward]

Party A: "Bigotry is cool and good"

Party B: "Bigotry is bad and I will resist you"

Me, a genius: "You are both as bad as each other"

*furiously masturbates onto own face*

party a: here's a jewish person who wrote for a white supremacist website

party b: uh yeah he's dumb, bigoted and not to be trusted

party a: well looks like you're just as bad as the nazis since you hate jews too

 

[Raven117]

You're living in a fantasy land. Speech is already restricted here, and you continue to have 0 evidence beyond your feelings.

Very limited, mostly to true threats.

And no. I sure dont. You do thinking you can trust your government to show restraint in things that oppose them.

But truly don't worry. Other folks will protect your rights.

 

[Kuroi Gogeta]

So if I'm understanding this article correctly: Anti-fa is the inevitable counterpoint to violent right wing movements, and as long as violent right wing movements pop up, there will be violent left wing movements there to meet them?

Doesn't seem so complicated.

 

[Ozigizo]

Very limited, mostly to true threats.

And no. I sure dont. You do thinking you can trust your government to show restraint in things that oppose them.

But truly don't worry. Other folks will protect your rights.

Well, I know you for one aren't looking out for my best interest. You appear to be more concerned with maintaining status quo.

 

[Psychoward]

So if I'm understanding this article correctly: Anti-fa is the inevitable counterpoint to violent right wing movements, and as long as violent right wing movements pop up, there will be violent left wing movements there to meet them?

Doesn't seem so complicated.

it's not

in america as far as I'm concerned not a single anti-fa member has been charged with murder whereas we know about neo-nazis...

and plenty of peaceful protests have been interrupted by the alt-right which is when anti-fa comes in

the level of violence isn't comparable, the intent isn't comparable, the ideology isn't comparable

 

[smokeandmirrors]

it's not

in america as far as I'm concerned not a single anti-fa member has been charged with murder whereas we know about neo-nazis...

yeah but what about all those poor windows :'(

 

[MUnited83]

He's a Jew. Antifa is not anti Nazi only, they are an extreme left group, they are communists and socialists. They attack and shut down anybody who thinks different from them. They are as intolerant as your next door nazi. See the reaction to Ben's video I posted here, pure bigotry.

LMAO. Goddamn you really are affected by people calling Shapiro exactly what he is,a dumbass. Even turned every criticism of him into anti-semitism. You're quite interesting.


It's also very cute your definition of "communists and socialists". Red Scare really left a major impact one people's rationality I see.

 

[Hierophant]

it's not

in america as far as I'm concerned not a single anti-fa member has been charged with murder whereas we know about neo-nazis...

and plenty of peaceful protests have been interrupted by the alt-right which is when anti-fa comes in

the level of violence isn't comparable, the intent isn't comparable, the ideology isn't comparable

Yeah fuck you get actual nazi cunts stabbing and killing random black people walking down the street and Anti-fascistas break a window and a nose and suddenly everyone is fucking terrified

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Yeah fuck you get actual nazi cunts stabbing and killing random black people walking down the street and Anti-fascistas break a window and a nose and suddenly everyone is fucking terrified

people care more about property than other people.

 

[Ozigizo]

yeah but what about all those poor windows :'(

And remember when they blocked traffic and made me late. Darn those guys!

 

[King Tubby]

While I think antifa is mostly noble, they can't be the face of opposition to Nazis and other far-right elements of society. I'd like to see more organized, nonviolent opposition take a more prominent role and get rid of this idiotic perception of liberal/left resistance as thuggish communists and anarchists.

 

[Raven117]

Well, I know you for one aren't looking out for my best interest. You appear to be more concerned with maintaining status quo.

Sure I am and others are too. If or when you decide to join a political movement of your choice (let's say ANTIFA), hell, lets say the Civil Rights movement in the 1950's time machine (which many folks did try to silence by saying "hate speech"), that elected officials will not be able to brand your voice hate speech because they don't like it.

 

[Nafai1123]

Only do to the restraint of the government. I don't want them to have that power.

You don't think in today's climate that Trump and the Republicans wouldn't brand ANTIFA, BLM or what have you as hate speech, and limit their rights?

Truly, you don't think they would?

What views do they have that could be labeled as hate speech? What unified narrative could they base hate speech laws around? These are organic movements protesting injustice and fascism in our society. If they say BLM is a hate group then people will just form another group with the same goals.

I don't see how they could reasonably include saying "hey guys, our lives matter too" as form of hate speech, whereas saying "we should murder jews/blacks" is much more clear-cut.

 

[Psychoward]

While I think antifa is mostly noble, they can't be the face of opposition to Nazis and other far-right elements of society. I'd like to see more organized, nonviolent opposition take a more prominent role and get rid of this idiotic perception of liberal/left resistance as thuggish communists and anarchists.

it's actually really simple

part a is the politicians/public figures rising up to fight white supremacy at a macro level

part b is antifa/"thuggish resistance" to fight white supremacy on a micro level

done

 

[Ozigizo]

Sure I am and others are too. If or when you decide to join a political movement of your choice (let's say ANTIFA), hell, lets say the Civil Rights movement in the 1950's time machine, that elected officials will not be able to brand your voice hate speech because they don't like it.

More hypotheticals.

 

[Raven117]

What views do they have that could be labeled as hate speech? What unified narrative could they base hate speech laws around? These are organic movements protesting injustice and fascism in our society. If they say BLM is a hate group then people will just form another group with the same goals.

I don't see how they could reasonably include saying "hey guys, our lives matter too" as form of hate speech, whereas saying "we should murder jews/blacks" is much more clear-cut.

Exactly. Hate speech would be whatever the people in power say it is regardless of what the speech actually is.

 

[Wallach]

But truly don't worry. Other folks will protect your rights.

ah good at least someone knows what's best for us

shit's been working out aces for black folks in this country

 

[Hierophant]

it's actually really simple

part a is the politicians/public figures rising up to fight white supremacy at a macro level

part b is antifa/"thuggish resistance" to fight white supremacy on a micro level

done

Hell look at the Civil Rights movement, the only reason MLK got as much traction as he did was because the other avenue of negotiation was Malcom X

 

[Psychoward]

Sure I am and others are too. If or when you decide to join a political movement of your choice (let's say ANTIFA), hell, lets say the Civil Rights movement in the 1950's time machine (which many folks did try to silence by saying "hate speech"), that elected officials will not be able to brand your voice hate speech because they don't like it.

MLK was jailed anyway dude and plenty of non-violent protestors were assaulted by the government.

 

[jph139]

yeah but what about all those poor windows :'(

And those students. And journalists.

But yes, let's continue to live in a fantasy land where it's absolutely impossible for innocent people to be victimized when protests devolve into mob violence. Let's default to the easiest, simplest solutions and handwave all self-criticism.

 

[Raven117]

More hypotheticals.

It would be nice to share your complacent trust in the government's ability not to abuse power.

 

[Raven117]

MLK was jailed anyway dude and plenty of non-violent protestors were assaulted by the government.

Yes, they were. And in a perfect society, that would not have happened for the peaceful protestors and in a perfect society, the perpetrators should have been charged with a crime.

MORE reason not to trust the government. You are making my point. You want that same body making a determination of what is and isnt hate speech?

 

[Ozigizo]

It would be nice to share your complacent trust in the government's ability not to abuse power.

Jesus Christ.

🙄🙄🙄

 

[Psychoward]

And those students. And journalists.

But yes, let's continue to live in a fantasy land where it's absolutely impossible for innocent people to be victimized when protests devolve into mob violence. Let's default to the easiest, simplest solutions and handwave all self-criticism.

Yeah that was fucked up and I won't defend it buuuuuuut that doesn't represent all of antifa just as a few rogue violent people don't represent all of BLM and there was never any confirmation that the person who was pepper sprayed or the journalists who were attacked were assaulted by antifa members in the first place.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

And those students. And journalists.

But yes, let's continue to live in a fantasy land where it's absolutely impossible for innocent people to be victimized when protests devolve into mob violence. Let's default to the easiest, simplest solutions and handwave all self-criticism.

a) source they were antifa

b) so how do you deal with nazis. what is the best course of action then.

 

[Tain]

b) so how do you deal with nazis. what is the best course of action then.

*extremely aaron sorkin voice*

debate them~

 

[MUnited83]

Yes, they were. And in a perfect society, that would not have happened for the peaceful protestors and in a perfect society, the perpetrators should have been charged with a crime.

MORE reason not to trust the government. You are making my point. You want that same body making a determination of what is and isnt hate speech?

Let's do away with laws as well while we are at it. You really want that body making a determination of what is and isn't a crime?

 

[Kuroi Gogeta]

it's not

in america as far as I'm concerned not a single anti-fa member has been charged with murder whereas we know about neo-nazis...

and plenty of peaceful protests have been interrupted by the alt-right which is when anti-fa comes in

the level of violence isn't comparable, the intent isn't comparable, the ideology isn't comparable

and yet it seems there are people determined to complicate the discussion. It bothers me that people are more worried about whether it is okay to punch a nazi than the fact that nazis are even a thing in 2017. People are ready to crack their fingers and write a 2000 word treatise about the slippery slope we get into once we start considering violence as an option against people who have literally killed people but have little to say about the fact that they're infiltrating law enforcement and have infiltrated the highest levels of government.

 

[Raven117]

*extremely aaron sorkin voice*

debate them~

Nah, limit their influence by reaching out to those susceptible to their message.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Nah, limit their influence by reaching out to those susceptible to their message.

okay. you first then.

let us know how that works for you.

 

[Nafai1123]

Exactly. Hate speech would be whatever the people in power say it is regardless of what the speech actually is.

The POTUS does not have unilateral power in this country.

 

[Raven117]

Let's do away with laws as well while we are at it. You really want that body making a determination of what is and isn't a crime?

Chaos Reigns! </jokes>

I mean, the outlawing of marijuana was passed due in large part to its disproportional use among African Americans at the time so they could limit voting rights.

But yeah, these are the people you want making hate speech determinations.

 

[jph139]

Yeah that was fucked up and I won't defend it buuuuuuut that doesn't represent all of antifa just as a few rogue violent people don't represent all of BLM and there was never any confirmation that the person who was pepper sprayed or the journalists who were attacked were assaulted by antifa members in the first place.

Maybe it doesn't matter whether the people taking advantage of intentionally-created chaos (in the first example I posted) were card-carrying members of the organization?

Maybe an organization still bears responsibility for intentionally creating a state of chaos, which succeeded in undermining their opposition but at the same time caused innocent people to end up in the crossfire?

Maybe the political statement "violence is always justified when it's against bad people" is an irresponsible one when it's most often trumpeted in public areas where people's allegiances aren't always clear?

But #NotAllAntifa, definitely.

a) source they were antifa

b) so how do you deal with nazis. what is the best course of action then.

a) First guy is using black bloc tactics, if you don't want people acting anonymously in your uniform, don't have a uniform of anonymity. Second one I'll admit is inference, believe it or don't.

b) When you need to use violence, use violence. When you don't need to, don't. Be careful and be sure there are no other alternatives left, and if the wrong people end up hurt, accept responsibility for it and don't try to weasel out.

 

[Psychoward]

Nah, limit their influence by reaching out to those susceptible to their message.

like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V1eI0QRye4&feature=youtu.be

 

[Psychoward]

Maybe it doesn't matter whether the people taking advantage of intentionally-created chaos (in the first example I posted) were card-carrying members of the organization?

Maybe an organization still bears responsibility for intentionally creating a state of chaos, which succeeded in undermining their opposition but at the same time caused innocent people to end up in the crossfire?

Maybe the political statement "violence is always justified when it's against bad people" is an irresponsible one when it's most often trumpeted in public areas where people's allegiances aren't always clear?

But #NotAllAntifa, definitely.

#NotAllAntifa makes sense considering it's a movement where each branch is different from the rest and there's no central power structure yes.

First guy is using black bloc tactics, if you don't want people acting anonymously in your uniform, don't have a uniform of anonymity.

yeah instead just let the racist, white supremacist law enforcement handle you lol

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1419858

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Chaos Reigns! </jokes>

I mean, the outlawing of marijuana was passed due in large part to its disproportional use among African Americans at the time so they could limit voting rights.

But yeah, these are the people you want making hate speech determinations.

Why do people like you always try to use us as your trump card

It's pretty sickening

 

[Raven117]

The POTUS does not have unilateral power in this country.

What is stopping an Executive Order right now?

But more accute, Im not really talking about the POTUS, Im talking about Congress. And Im talking about the Congresses to come.

We KNOW, we effing know, that Congress has passed laws that are unconsitutional that sought to limit peoples freedom. Abortion, Gay Marriage, Contraception, just to name a few. These rights came from the Constitution (and SCOTUS' interpretation).

Yet these are the very people yall want making "hate speech" calls. Just amazing to me.

 

[Raven117]

like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V1eI0QRye4&feature=youtu.be

LOL, not the worst example.

But more through institutional education.

 

[jph139]

#NotAllAntifa makes sense considering it's a movement where each branch is different from the rest and there's no central power structure yes.

Each branch, by the very self-identification "antifa," has the full intention of using violence and chaos to protest fascism. That's what antifa is.

You can't have a decentralized movement, prop up the good ones, and pretend there's no bad ones. It's intellectually dishonest.

 

[Psychoward]

LOL, not the worst example.

But more through institutional education.

A high school degree is pretty much required as a US citizen, do you think neo-nazis grew up being taught that nazis weren't evil or something