Support NeoGAF

[AndersTheSwede]

Well, it is fun. It makes the games more dangerous, and in some cases more fair.

Its more fun loosing control of your character and watching completely helpless, and in some situations getting into a chain of knockdowns, and this makes the game more fair and fun?

There are far better ways of making the game more 'dangerous' and 'fair' then taking control away from the player, which often just frustrates and makes deaths feel arbitrary and not based on skill.

But if you like that kind of torture then knock yourself out.


Edit:

You get hit, you get knocked down. The answer is to not get hit.

Yes, makes perfect sense, just don't get hit! Why didn't I think of that before!

Last I checked Lost Planet wasn't Counter-Strike or R6, there is a large amount of fire and the game is designed around you being able to be hit and keep playing.

 

[Llyranor]

I love the punishing controls in Lost Planet. It just motivates me to play better.

Incidently, I can't get past the first boss on extreme difficulty. It's like the game is mocking me. After a long battle against the final boss on hard, I finally felt like I'm becoming good at the game. Then I start a new game on extreme and the game laughs in my face. Then again, I was also stuck on the first boss on hard for ages - it was like a tutorial. "No more gaming until you pass this boss HA HA HA HA".

 

[Crushed]

People fall down in gun/sword fights and get up?

YES.

 

[PataHikari]

Its more fun loosing control of your character and watching completely helpless, and in some situations getting into a chain of knockdowns, and this makes the game more fair and fun?

Name a game where this happens.

Name it.

 

[karasu]

Its more fun loosing control of your character and watching completely helpless, and in some situations getting into a chain of knockdowns, and this makes the game more fair and fun?

If I can do the same to the enemies, yes. Though I think you're exaggerating the problem to a ridiculous degree. Lost Planet isn't representative of every Japanese game where a character falls down. :/

There are far better ways of making the game more 'dangerous' and 'fair' then taking control away from the player, which often just frustrates and makes deaths feel arbitrary and not based on skill.

This is so silly. When you're playing Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry and a character knocks you down, do you cry about it? Is it torturous, or game breaking in your eyes? So you don't have control for a fraction of a second, do better next time!

 

[AndersTheSwede]

Name a game where this happens.

Name it.

Lost Planet

 

[PataHikari]

Lost Planet

OK.

So that's one game where you can get comboed.

Now, is that suddenly a indication of games where being hit stuns you as a whole?

Are all such games like Lost Planet.

 

[Bowen_B]

Its more fun loosing control of your character and watching completely helpless, and in some situations getting into a chain of knockdowns, and this makes the game more fair and fun?

There are far better ways of making the game more 'dangerous' and 'fair' then taking control away from the player, which often just frustrates and makes deaths feel arbitrary and not based on skill.

But if you like that kind of torture then knock yourself out.

I think this is one of the main differences between Japanese and Western game design philosophy. In Western games you're meant to be in control where as in Japanese games the director is in control and you're just performing a long series of scripted events.

Western games have obviously suffered from being overly scripted as well but this is easing as time goes on and more and more western games are attempting emergent gameplay and sandbox environments, Japanese games in general aren't following this trend.

If I can do the same to the enemies, yes. Though I think you're exaggerating the problem to a ridiculous degree. Lost Planet isn't representative of every Japanese game where a character falls down. :/

It's just the worst example and the one that sticks most in your mind exasperating all your bad experiences with falling down in Japanese games.

 

[dfyb]

Its more fun loosing control of your character and watching completely helpless, and in some situations getting into a chain of knockdowns, and this makes the game more fair and fun?

There are far better ways of making the game more 'dangerous' and 'fair' then taking control away from the player, which often just frustrates and makes deaths feel arbitrary and not based on skill.

But if you like that kind of torture then knock yourself out.


Edit:


Yes, makes perfect sense, just don't get hit! Why didn't I think of that before!

Last I checked Lost Planet wasn't Counter-Strike or R6, there is a large amount of fire and the game is designed around you being able to be hit and keep playing.

you're mistakingly accusing the knocking down mechanic as the sole culprit of lost planet's poor game design. there are plenty of games where you can get knocked down, yet it doesn't mean you have to watch yourself get infinitely comboed.

 

[Kintaro]

Somehow, this has turned into a not so thinly veiled East vs. West thread.

Lets see... getting knocked down after an attack vs. soaking up damage. Pick your poison I guess? Watching a character soak up damage while barely flinching is a lot more laughable to me than falling down to me.

 

[jaypah]

how the OP should have done this is just bitch about how frustrating and lame it is to fall down from even the mildest attacks in games. nobody here really likes to be sitting around and taking damage while they have no controll over their character. that's just retarded.

once everyone was on his side and agreed that, yeah, it's bullshit, then he should have said, "wait...you ever noticed how it's mostly Japanese developed games that do this?" then it would have been hilarious watching folks blow their brains out rather than agree that eastern devs are stuck in 8-bit land with that retardation.

"durr, don't get hit!" wow, i'd love to see your flawless Lost Planet run where you pwn the whole game without getting hit. you must be sooooo awesome. and i say this all in jest so re-holster your flamethrowers.

Somehow, this has turned into a not so thinly veiled East vs. West thread.

Lets see... getting knocked down after an attack vs. soaking up damage. Pick your poison I guess? Watching a character soak up damage while barely flinching is a lot more laughable to me than falling down to me.

one man sent to save the world is laughable no matter how you're dying while doing it, most video games in general are laughable if you apply real world logic. i just think it's less aggravating to not fall down and watch myself take damage with no controll over my character at all. hell, let me roll while i'm down there. isn't this in MGS4? can't you retain movement while on the ground?

 

[DaSamba]

Believe it or not, you can get shot, fall over, and then get back up without being dead.

 

[Bowen_B]

Believe it or not, you can get shot, fall over, and then get back up without being dead.

Why aren't you being shot while you're lying on the floor defenseless?

I like the falling over in CoD4, that's falling over done right.

 

[AndersTheSwede]

If I can do the same to the enemies, yes. Though I think you're exaggerating the problem to a ridiculous degree. Lost Planet isn't representative of every Japanese game where a character falls down. :/

Of course Lost Planet isn't representative of every game, but it is an example of what happens when the developer doesn't pay attention to how knock-downs negatively affect gameplay. Chain knock-downs happen a lot, they are very frequent particularly in boss battles in LP.

This is so silly. When you're playing Ninja Gaiden or Devil May Cry and a character knocks you down, do you cry about it? Is it torturous, or game breaking in your eyes? So you don't have control for a fraction of a second, do better next time!

Now your mixing genres. NG is a intricate fighting game based on single or small group encounters, it gives you an incredibly number of moves and options to complete a fight. Even then chain knock downs are relatively rare. Lost Planet is shall we say... more straightforward, and the knock downs definitely are not rare.

There are of course degrees to this, sometimes if the knock downs are muted and you rapidly get back up and there aren't any chain knock downs, then fine I accept it as part of the game. But it is still a very sloppy game mechanic.

Now, is that suddenly a indication of games where being hit stuns you as a whole?

Its a perfect example of how pointless it can be. You asked for one, I gave it to you.

you're mistakingly accusing the knocking down mechanic as the sole culprit of lost planet's poor game design. there are plenty of games where you can get knocked down, yet it doesn't mean you have to watch yourself get infinitely comboed.

I never said anything of the kind. There are of course other problems with Lost Planet, though without the knock downs it would significantly improve IMO. Knock downs in other games have functioned... okay, if the player is given sufficient options to avoid it and recover and not have any chaining. But they are still a cheap and counter-productive design choice IMO.

 

[KTallguy]

Western games have obviously suffered from being overly scripted as well but this is easing as time goes on and more and more western games are attempting emergent gameplay and sandbox environments, Japanese games in general aren't following this trend.

Not all games need to be sandboxy and have emergent gameplay.

If you don't like the game(Lost Planet), don't play it.

And Lost Planet is not representative of all Japanese games and falling down mechanics.

/end

 

[toypop]

After a glance, I completely chill myself from guessing this seriously as Japanese. :lol
Bravo GAF, let's keep it rolling as usual.

 

[PataHikari]

Not all games need to be sandboxy and have emergent gameplay.

If you don't like the game(Lost Planet), don't play it.

And Lost Planet is not representative of all Japanese games and falling down mechanics.

/end

Bu-bu-but Japanese games suck!

 

[Bowen_B]

Not all games need to be sandboxy and have emergent gameplay.

If you don't like the game, don't play it.

I'm not saying all games need to follow this trend, I'm just illustrating how JP devs in general don't believe it's important for the player to be in control. They don't see a problem with putting the player in a situation where they can't control the outcome of a battle.

I like fighting games etc. I just think that the way Japanese devs are implementing things like falling down mechanics etc. in action games are archaic.

 

[The Faceless Master]

i'm confused as to all these people complaining about being knocked down then mentioning lost planet, where in typical capcom fashion, you can 'techroll' off the ground while getting up...

 

[PataHikari]

i'm confused as to all these people complaining about being knocked down then mentioning lost planet, where in typical capcom fashion, you can 'techroll' off the ground while getting up...

Duh.

This is GAF.

Nobody complaining actually played the game.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Duh.

This is GAF.

Nobody complaining actually played the game.

figures.

 

[AndersTheSwede]

Duh.

This is GAF.

Nobody complaining actually played the game.

I think you need to tone your generalizations down. Just a warning.

i'm confused as to all these people complaining about being knocked down then mentioning lost planet, where in typical capcom fashion, you can 'techroll' off the ground while getting up...

While getting up is the key part of that explanation. It not a universally effective way to avoid the chain knockdowns.

 

[jaypah]

Bu-bu-but Japanese games suck!

bu-bu-but some of them do! western games too! deal with it.

gaf is crazy

 

[PataHikari]

gaf is crazy

That's what sarcasm is for dealing with.

 

[dfyb]

I'm not saying all games need to follow this trend, I'm just illustrating how JP devs in general don't believe it's important for the player to be in control. They don't see a problem with putting the player in a situation where they can't control the outcome of a battle.

stop using lost planet as your only example, for christ sake. the only alternative you've given is that you'd rather be dead. what's so wrong about having a status in addition to "alive" and "dead" - "down." it adds variety to the game. forget lost planet for a second.

having a "down" status has the potential to add great scenarios to the game. in team games, having a downed teamate opens up the scenario where you have to protect him while he recovers -- if all games were like you're suggesting they should be, he'd just be dead. not only would he just be dead, but his death becomes unimportant -- there's nothing for you to do after he's dead so you just continue on as if nothing happened.

letting players fall down opens up more gameplay possibilities. it's not always implemented well -- lost planet is an example of that, and it's stupid of you to keep bringing up a bad game in your defense. you keep saying "you have no control over your character" and yet your only alternative is to have the player die alltogether... that means you not only lose control over any character you were once controling, but you have zero chance for you to recover.

i'm not saying all games should have knockdown. i'm saying it's a completely valid mechanic. if lost planet implemented it poorly, that only means lost planet is a bad game.

 

[Bowen_B]

figures.

Yes, no-one here finished the game on hard or played the Online till level 50.
We are not talking about plasma nades. We are not talking about energy gun infinites. We are not talking about shotgun -> nade combos. We are not talking about machine gun hit stun infinites. We are not talking about dummy nade guarunteed kills. We are not talking about EMP infinites against mechs. We are not talking about gattling juggles. We are not talking about knockdown -> sticky nade traps.

 

[jaypah]

stop using lost planet as your only example, for christ sake. the only alternative you've given is that you'd rather be dead. what's so wrong about having a status in addition to "alive" and "dead" - "down." it adds variety to the game. forget lost planet for a second -- it's a bad game with badly implemented mechanics.

having a "down" status has the potential to add great scenarios to the game. in team games, having a downed teamate opens up the scenario where you have to protect him while he recovers -- if all games were like you're suggesting they should be, he'd just be dead. not only would he just be dead, but his death becomes unimportant -- there's nothing for you to do after he's dead so you just continue on as if nothing happened.

letting players fall down opens up more gameplay possibilities. it's not always implemented well -- lost planet is an example of that, and it's stupid of you to keep bringing up a bad game in your defense.

well i guess this sums it up for the thread then. some folks like to be on the ground with no control over their character for a while, some people don't. i agree, it doesn't have to be horrible but a lot of the time it's badly implemented and just as frustrating as 8-bit mega man or castlevania with their 'push back' punishment. but nobody is going to change anyones mind here today and the same shit keeps getting repeated so this thread is no longer funny. oh well....fun while it lasted.

Yes, no-one here finished the game on hard or played the Online till level 50.
We are not talking about plasma nades. We are not talking about energy gun infinites. We are not talking about shotgun -> nade combos. We are not talking about machine gun hit stun infinites. We are not talking about dummy nade guarunteed kills. We are not talking about EMP infinites against mechs. We are not talking about gattling juggles. We are not talking about knockdown -> sticky nade traps.

damn, speaking of knock-down then comboed! :lol

 

[thefro]

Japanese developers understand fight psychology better than Western developers (from Sumo, Pro-Wrestling, MMA, etc), whereas most Western developers get it from unrealistic Hollywood movies.

 

[antiloop]

I love that gag.

I so do too.

 

[Hunter D]

Japanese devs just haven't moved forwards.
They still think it's acceptable for you to get knocked down then infite combo'd to death.

I'd rather be insta-killed than those long bullshit falling over, standing up animations. Lost Planet was totally broken, in the end I just ended up infite comboing against Japanese players to get easy kills taking alot of the skill out of the game.

Lost planet was kind of bonkers. You could also juggle people.

 

[Kintaro]

I think you need to tone your generalizations down. Just a warning.

:lol

Or what?

 

[PataHikari]

:lol

Or what?

He'll say bad words about me behind my back.

 

[Bowen_B]

stop using lost planet as your only example, for christ sake. the only alternative you've given is that you'd rather be dead. what's so wrong about having a status in addition to "alive" and "dead" - "down." it adds variety to the game. forget lost planet for a second.

having a "down" status has the potential to add great scenarios to the game. in team games, having a downed teamate opens up the scenario where you have to protect him while he recovers -- if all games were like you're suggesting they should be, he'd just be dead. not only would he just be dead, but his death becomes unimportant -- there's nothing for you to do after he's dead so you just continue on as if nothing happened.

letting players fall down opens up more gameplay possibilities. it's not always implemented well -- lost planet is an example of that, and it's stupid of you to keep bringing up a bad game in your defense. you keep saying "you have no control over your character" and yet your only alternative is to have the player die alltogether... that means you not only lose control over any character you were once controling, but you have zero chance for you to recover.

i'm not saying all games should have knockdown. i'm saying it's a completely valid mechanic. if lost planet implemented it poorly, that only means lost planet is a bad game.

I'm not just talking about Lost Planet.

I'm talking about this whole bullshit in JP games where you get beat to the ground and then you just jump up fully invigorated again. That's fucking stupid, what was the point in knocking me to the ground in the first place?
If it's not that then it's getting knocked down then being fucked over by enemies for a long-ass time without a chance to fight back, I'd rather just be dead.

I support knockdowns like in GRAW or GoW or BF2 but definitely not in something like Mussou where the enemy armies stand around your body waiting for you to get up when you should be killed where you lay.

Losing control of my character for indeterminate periods of time pisses me off.

 

[jaypah]

:lol

Or what?

:lol or you'll get a knock down-> infinite combo!

 

[Kintaro]

:lol or you'll get a knock down-> infinite combo!

Oh shit!

Lemme check the manual for that tech-roll again...

 

[C4Lukins]

As soon as I saw the thread title I thought Lost Planet and Dead Rising. I am fine with getting knocked off my feet, but it sucks when you are forced to stay down without any control over the circumstances. At least give me a roll or something to try and move to a safer spot before I hop back up.

 

[LuCkymoON]

It would be so cool to knock down your opponent in Halo with the concussion from a grenade and finish them off with your sidearm.

 

[AndersTheSwede]

having a "down" status has the potential to add great scenarios to the game. in team games, having a downed teamate opens up the scenario where you have to protect him while he recovers

Your confusing "down" status' with knock downs. A "down" status is like what is implemented in Gears of War which happens when your health reaches 0 and you lay permanently on the ground until resuscitated or you bleed out. Knock downs are virtually never implemented in multiplayer games because it adds an automatically unbalancing mechanic. You could simply knock someone down, then close in and kill. The game would devolve into endless repetitions of this ultimate combo.

if all games were like you're suggesting they should be, he'd just be dead. not only would he just be dead, but his death becomes unimportant -- there's nothing for you to do after he's dead so you just continue on as if nothing happened.

Death is unimportant? Do you play many multiplayer games with large teams? So death in Counter-Strike, Halo, Team Fortress, or any other game is pointless?

and yet your only alternative is to have the player die alltogether... that means you not only lose control over any character you were once controling, but you have zero chance for you to recover.

I would rather have clear delineations of what is required for me to survive and the penalty of not fulfilling those requirements is death, than have cheap incapacitating moves everywhere that would negate anything I am doing. Can knock downs be integrated into a game? Yes, there are certain way to do it and have it be acceptable, but I don't believe it adds a single worthwhile element to any game. Its a failed mechanic that has been around for a long time that only adds frustration to a game with no significant advantages that off-set that frustration.

He'll say bad words about me behind my back.

Damn right. Though if you want to keep talking out of your ass yet contributing nothing to the discussion be my guest.

 

[Juwanna Peezadis]

People fall down in gun/sword fights and get up?

Only if you're the hero.

Spoiler

Don't you watch any movies!?

 

[winter]

All i know is that getting knocked down in Metal Gear Online, especially when someone forward rolled at you, was the most irritating fucking thing in the world.

 

[KTallguy]

I would rather have clear delineations of what is required for me to survive and the penalty of not fulfilling those requirements is death, than have cheap incapacitating moves everywhere that would negate anything I am doing. Can knock downs be integrated into a game? Yes, there are certain way to do it and have it be acceptable, but I don't believe it adds a single worthwhile element to any game. Its a failed mechanic that has been around for a long time that only adds frustration to a game with no significant advantages that off-set that frustration.

Great, you're officially an expert of game design.

You really need to play some fighting games.

All i know is that getting knocked down in Metal Gear Online, especially when someone forward rolled at you, was the most irritating fucking thing in the world.

There's validity to this comment. They should tweak it in the PS3 version. Press X while in the air and roll to your feet, or something.

 

[Bowen_B]

You really need to play some fighting games.

That's why I put that Junior earlier on ignore.
Fighting game knock-downs are totally different and that's obvious. It doesn't translate to good gameplay in any other genre.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Yes, no-one here finished the game on hard or played the Online till level 50.
We are not talking about plasma nades. We are not talking about energy gun infinites. We are not talking about shotgun -> nade combos. We are not talking about machine gun hit stun infinites. We are not talking about dummy nade guarunteed kills. We are not talking about EMP infinites against mechs. We are not talking about gattling juggles. We are not talking about knockdown -> sticky nade traps.

so now you're saying that those combos don't take skill?

 

[AndersTheSwede]

You really need to play some fighting games.

Okay, I can see its use in dedicated fighting games. Happy?

Though I love all the assumptions thrown around about what games I have and have not played from ignorant juniors and members alike. Nice when people debate the person and not the points.

 

[Bowen_B]

so now you're saying that those combos don't take skill?

If you want you can use good timing to make plasmas an infinite combo by themselves but if used in combination with a weapon then no skill is required.
Energy gun takes good timing.
Shotgun -> nade takes no skill.
Machine gun hit stuns take no skill.
Dummy nades guarunteed kills take no skill at all.
EMP infinites take no skill.
Gattling juggles take skill.
Knockdown -> sticky nade takes no skill.

 

[M3d10n]

Yet another example of a "Gaffer who wants all games to have the same standardized gameplay" thread. 3/10

 

[DaSamba]

That's why I put that Junior earlier on ignore.
Fighting game knock-downs are totally different and that's obvious. It doesn't translate to good gameplay in any other genre.

It doesn't make any sense that you don't get knocked down in other genre's. People fall down.

 

[Bowen_B]

It doesn't make any sense that you don't get knocked down in other genre's. People fall down.

People who're shot / stabbed / slashed don't fall down and then jump up. They stay down or need help getting up.

 

[Crushed]

People who're shot / stabbed / slashed don't fall down and then jump up. They stay down or need help getting up.

This may come as a shock to you, but most videogames aren't 100% realistic.

 

[Lostconfused]

its funny how people use realism excuse for pain in the ass game mechanics.