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What is Nintendo's special ingredient?
- Thread starter Strictly
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Nostalgia is a big, big factor. A lot of times Nintendo gets away with flaws that others would be chastise for. Look at BoTW for an example. Every publication has said something about the frame rate dipping, and in some places dipping hard. You'd think something that affects the core gameplay would make a game not a perfect, but you'd be wrong since it's zelda.
Umm, Sony can't just leave the gaming space anymore. Maybe that was a possibility at some point, but the Playstation brand is one of the most important aspects of Sony since Kaz become the CEO.
Umm, Sony can't just leave the gaming space anymore. Maybe that was a possibility at some point, but the Playstation brand is one of the most important aspects of Sony since Kaz become the CEO.
GravityMan
Member
There's no "secret sauce" that Nintendo exclusively possesses. With that said, I think the following make a significant difference:
- Continuity of key talent, which (I suspect) helps keep morale and happiness high.
- Strong visionary leadership
- Often thinking outside the box
- Company culture
- Bottom-up game design philosophy. Nintendo places a high priority on moment-to-moment gameplay. They want to make sure that basic actions such as jumping or swinging a sword feel good and fun.
- Emphasis on polish
Aside from Nintendo, there are only about 4 or 5 developers total in the entire industry that truly "get it".
Granted, Nintendo's had a few subpar games themselves just like everyone else. It happens. Some ideas simply don't click well with consumers, no matter how well thought-out or researched they are.
- Continuity of key talent, which (I suspect) helps keep morale and happiness high.
- Strong visionary leadership
- Often thinking outside the box
- Company culture
- Bottom-up game design philosophy. Nintendo places a high priority on moment-to-moment gameplay. They want to make sure that basic actions such as jumping or swinging a sword feel good and fun.
- Emphasis on polish
Aside from Nintendo, there are only about 4 or 5 developers total in the entire industry that truly "get it".
Granted, Nintendo's had a few subpar games themselves just like everyone else. It happens. Some ideas simply don't click well with consumers, no matter how well thought-out or researched they are.
Khalifa Jayy
Banned
That sounds great... in theory.
How is this applicable at all to say, Zelda?
I don't see it.
Tavernacle12
Member
Breath of the Wild is 100% gameplay. I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Mario is 100% gameplay, so is Star Fox, Splatoon, Pikmin, F-Zero, Mario Kart, Smash Bros, etc. The only series that isn't really gameplay first is maybe Fire Emblem, since it's more straight strategy than gameplay.
Angel Whispers
Member
Well, there's Splatoon, from 2015. I could end it there, but anybody who says the last ten years hasn't paid attention...
ARMS has left an impression already, too.
Super Mario Maker gave people a greater appreciation for 2D/Side-scrolling games - When you look beyond the visuals of NSMB, you realise that it's about to-the-pixel precision. When you see some of the levels created in SMM, you begin to understand that the teams don't make them at a click of the fingers.
Super Mario 3D World is one of the highest rated 8th Gen titles - For some, it's the best 3D Mario to date. It was after SMG1&2. I don't think a Mario or a LOZ can be downplayed - Both are influential, and both have set very high standards. But what makes them special? The fact that they still have a freshness after over 30 years. They've grown up with the industry. They've translated from 2D spaces into 3D ones (I consider this to be as great a challenge as the transition to HD development, if not greater). They've had to reinvent themselves. They've shown a staying power that most in the arts would dream of, and furthermore, they have a universal appeal.
They published Bayonetta 2 and the Wonderful 101 - They might not have had Wii Sports sales, but the former was Game Of The Year in 2014.
Xenoblade Chronicles is one of the highest-acclaimed JRPGs of recent years, and of all-time, while some had suggested that Final Fantasy XV was influenced by XCX in places.
They're also masters of the portable space - LOZ: A Link Between Worlds was an outstandng entry. Kid Icarus: Uprising was an example of how to revive a dormant IP successfully. Animal Crossing: New Leaf scored highly - That series is bigger than Metroid. Fire Emblem: Awakening was their "Final Fantasy 7 moment" for the series - It elevated from niche to top-tier IP.
Some think it's just their games - that they could be possible on other consoles. It isn't, and they wouldn't. The hardware plays a very important role in keeping their IPs fresh. More possibilities are born out of their desire to try different things with their hardware. Say what you will about a LOZ: Phantom HourGlass, or a Kirby Power Paintbrush, or dual screens and touch/stylus play, or a LOZ: Skyward Sword and the Wii Remote - Not many publishers can claim numerous IPs which have gone through all of the above, new controller inputs, and delivered multiple highly-acclaimed entries. It is for these reasons that a thread such as this one exists. It is for these reasons that one might consider them to be more than something special.
None of this is to say that Nintendo hasn't made games that didn't set the world alight. None of this ought to be taken as a slight on other developers, and it isn't to say that other developers don't make good games. Plenty do, and it's possible to enjoy all sorts of games without bashing one to build another up. However, they can't boast the staying power, or claim as many successful reinventions, or the same degree of universal appeal. Perhaps 1990s Sega was up there for a while, too, but not so much since the end of the Dreamcast Era.
If I could summarise, there isn't a "special ingredient". It's a cocktail of good design and production principles, gameplay first, formidable development teams and team chemistry, and a willingness to say "why not?", be quirky or whimsical, as well as faith and friendships.
poodaddy
Gold Member
I think this is the real reason. True art isn't birthed when there's a suit standing over your shoulders reminding you about a deadline and possible layoffs; the artist has to feel free to produce their best work while not feeling constrained by industry politics and fiscal consequences.
Joeshabadoo
Member
DING DING DING (plus also tons of stuff about brilliant approaches to game design through careful collaborative processes, not very strictly beholden to budgets and deadlines)
now if only they'd release CONSOLES when theyre finished, MIRITE GUYS!?!?!
seriously are they only publicly traded because of pressure from the Japanese Government and the Nikkei?
Khalifa Jayy
Banned
I don't see how you can say that. I think the gameplay is derived from the tale they want to tell and the characters they'd like to introduce and utilize. From there, gameplay systems are created along with environment designs, feedback loops, etc.
Nintendo didn't design an open world, weapon variety, gameplay loop, etc., then say "let's throw Link and co. in there and make it a Zelda game."
They said, "Let's make a new Zelda game... how should we go about that?"
Lol
Nintendo makes a fucking fun game to play and puts storytelling and "next gen" graphics generally waaaay in the backseat. Not that they don't make pretty games, they do, but that's not the emphasis
The minute a Nintendo game isn't rock solid in the gameplay department it gets torn to shreds. Mario Part 10, Star fox zero, Mario tennis U, and Amiibo party are great examples of this. If star fox had 1:1 identical controls to the n64 game with none of the other new mechanics it'd have been a hit and a "return to form" despite being a copy/paste of the snes game again. But because that core gameplay wasn't there
Or people like the games despite them being not great, like brawl or smash 4. 4 is so lucky the core gameplay is decent because it blows everywhere else except presentation
Edit: Obviously not ALL their games are this way, but the big ones are. People want another tight fast f zero game and Nintendo doesn't think that's "enough" so when it does come out it'll be running around the living room with the joycons irl and the screen will just say what place you're in
Stuff like fire emblem is an outlier imo. Pokémon is a great example of putting everything in the garbage but presentation and familiar gameplay
Baleoce
Member
I was under the impression that Nintendo often tends to work on the core concepts of the gameplay as a building block towards everything else, first and foremost.
higgsboson1997
Member
Have you tried their varied franchises though?
Splatoon, Mario, Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Mario Kart, Smash, Kid Icarus, Metroid, Luigi's Mansion, Animal Crossing are all great but unique in their own ways.
toddhunter
Member
This sums up the special sauce. Nintendo continually try to innovate and mix up their series like Zelda and generally produce a long line of completely mediocre games. But rather than going out of business, their fans buy the games anyway, call them great and allow Nintendo to continue making games until something sticks and they end up with a special title.
Without that blind loyalty something like the new Zelda would not be made. The last five Zeldas would have killed the series and probably the development team too. Without people lining up for launch titles, Super ARMS 4 would never go ahead to be the great game that maybe it will be.
Nobody else has this... well maybe Bethesda.
wonderful103
Member
Yes, it's entirely their fans that prop up their long line of mediocre junk. In fact, every reviewer that reviews a Nintendo game positively is also drinking kool-aid, and Zelda BOTW getting reviewed well is just the nostalgia talking. From every reviewer, who are all clearly fanboys.
Would've loved to see this post pre-edit.
Spladam
Member
Could it be a pact with Satan? Or maybe just a lot of love?
Hahah, is the myth true?
Great answer spekkeh. Alas, this is the key, this is the design equivalent of love.
TheRedSnifit
Member
Making really good games.
BlueBadger
Banned
Defensive fan boys.
And this is coming from someone who likes Nintendo.
And this is coming from someone who likes Nintendo.
Empyrean Heaven
Member
Did anyone else click this topic and think it was how Nintendo got their game cards to taste so bad?
Milly Osworth
Member
To all the dudes saying nostalgia: the special ingredient to your posts is...
Can you guess it?
Can you guess it?
That doesnt explain splatoon though. Nintendo literally reinvented the cover shooter this generation.
BeforeU
Oft hope is born when all is forlorn.
Leatherface
Member
Nintendo has has had their share of middle of the road games for sure, but when they dig in and have an ambitious vision, it is magical. They will see it through to perfection. Nintendo always seems to be at their best when they steer away from the formula and dare to explore uncharted territory.
Another thing I admire, and Blizzard does this as well, is throw the timeline out the window and work the hell out of a game until it's done. They can be perfectionists and though that can make for some excruciating wait times the end product is usually worth the wait.
Another thing I admire, and Blizzard does this as well, is throw the timeline out the window and work the hell out of a game until it's done. They can be perfectionists and though that can make for some excruciating wait times the end product is usually worth the wait.
I think the biggest factor of all is morale. You have a company that truly values its employees. That creates a positive work environment for people who will be loyal to their employer and not have to worry about having a job or not once their product ships. Even in Nintendo's toughest of times, their higher ups (i.e. Iwata and Miyamoto) took a 50% pay cut as opposed to letting people go to strengthen their financial outlook.
LordRaptor
Member
Leatherface
Member
I didn't know that. Respect!
Chie Satonaka
Member
It's like some people in here are legit mad that Zelda is being reviewed so well.
superdeluxe
Member
Fun games to play, with great characters
Milly Osworth
Member
is it...
???
I had salt in mind but yours works too 😇
This is interesting, because Zelda was the worst offender of this issue, before Breath of the Wild. It truly seemed like the one franchise in which they were designing from a blueprint instead of questioning for what purpose those mechanics implemented in the past or if they were relevant anymore.
ShinMaruku
Member
They retain talent and start from the focus point of play. Those two things help greatly with how their games shake out. They have their heads running in the same place for a long time, the only other group close is Sony which has their quality games as well. But Sony still lacks the continuity of talent in place like Nintendo does which is what differentiates the two companies.
It's Nostalgia
But there are times they have magical experience like the new Zelda or Mario Galaxy or Metroid Prime
However it's not always like this. I found some of the previous Zelda games to be a bore. Plenty of other Nintendo IPS are not as magical or just average.
And Nintendo are not the only company with magical games I've played games from together companies with a great all around game experience.
I think the key things though is accessibility, great core gameplay and controls, presentation, and great music. A combination of these things it what makes a great game.
But there are times they have magical experience like the new Zelda or Mario Galaxy or Metroid Prime
However it's not always like this. I found some of the previous Zelda games to be a bore. Plenty of other Nintendo IPS are not as magical or just average.
And Nintendo are not the only company with magical games I've played games from together companies with a great all around game experience.
I think the key things though is accessibility, great core gameplay and controls, presentation, and great music. A combination of these things it what makes a great game.
LordRaptor
Member
Even that's highly debatable, as theres a lot of experimentation within the series; yes, Twilight Princess is in most respects a direct iterative sequel to OoT, but Majoras Mask experiments with time limits, Phantom Hourglass effectively only has one 'hub' dungeon that you slowly progress through, A Link Between Worlds experiments with removing the item gating structure in favour of the rentals system, etc
Tarextherex
Banned
Link me to any video of it "dipping hard and affecting the core gameplay", gamekult shittweets don't count
If the game is good, shit that most people don't even notice doesn't matter. Even the biggest forum snobs still like Dark Souls besides technical issues because it's a good game that achieves its vision. Fallout 3 is a game that got a ton of GOTY scores for being a catchy open world RPG when it was the first time that I actually experienced a bug that required to reset the game, right at the beginning, but Bethesda is actually a very respected developer outside of the depths of neogaf
On topic, focusing on making the game fun to play is actually the hardest part of a game. When I made my 2D action/adventure/platforming game(with fairly limited knowledge of stuff like physics programming) for our class project, the hardest part wasn't the scenario, the visuals or even the level/puzzle design and implementing the gameplay mechanics. It was making a character that felt good to control, I had to watch videos about SMW mechanics to have a game that was remotely comparable to those in terms of character control and camera. When Nintendo makes their games under such a solid foundation, no wonder their few duds are simply iterative entries at worst. Their games have usually a very accomplished creative process, that is why Nintendo games are pretty much always good when developers like Capcom and Square-Enix kinda fell off after chasing the easy money made by certain popular yearly games, leading to some pretty questionable entries in some of their very revered franchises. "Special ingredient" is a pretty ignorant way to put it that belittles the very elaborate process that is making games, this is why most of your favorite developers have usually made games for a pretty long time while the ones looking for quick bucks are labeled as shovelware developers/got bankrupt/have no mindshare at all. If you want proof of this outside of Nintendo/Blizzard/Valve, look at say, From Software and Atlus, they used to be those guys who made obscure RPGs that got middling reviews but now they made some pretty successful and popular games
Saying they haven't made any great new games is discounting a lot of great new ideas that have come out of nintendo in the last 10 years. Things like Boxboy, Splatoon, Dillons rolling western, Pushmo, etc.
And TBH, From's DS series all feel the same to me. To someone who is a hardcore series buff I'm sure there are some differences, but I only played 3 hours of DS2 after finishing 1, as I thought "Oh, I've already played this"
toddhunter
Member
You missed the entire point of it, pre and post edit.
Nintendo do make high quality games, BOTW is clearly one of them.
Twilight Princess, MM, all the ds zeldas are not high quality games. And yes before someone jumps in with "spirit tracks defined my childhood" that love is actually the point.
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2017/03/02/the-legend-of-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-review
http://www.gameinformer.com/games/t...f-zelda-breath-of-the-wild-switch-review.aspx
http://www.polygon.com/2017/3/2/147...eath-of-the-wild-review-nintendo-switch-wii-u
People give any other developer shit if a game is 30fps, even if stable, let's not even get into what people would say if other games every dip under it.
I think it is really the corporate culture. You look at, say, the Splatoon team - they were creative people who had good ideas, and Nintendo cultivated that. With so many studios, you see the talent eventually break away and try to form their own groups and companies. That's just not something that happens with Nintendo... and even when it does (Sakurai comes to mind), they retain a good relationship at all costs.
Nintendo knows that good games come from good ideas, and that good ideas come from good talent.
Nintendo knows that good games come from good ideas, and that good ideas come from good talent.
literally the exact opposite of Nintendo's design philosophy - it's been well documented, even in this thread from that YT clip a few pages back
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