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What is "the look" of the next generation?

Duck said:
Fun fact of the day: Mirror's Edge uses Unreal Engine 3.

Never knew it was actually capable of color.

Its not shocking. Other devs are just lazy and jumping on the "gritty warfare" bandwagon established by popular shooters like Gears, Killzone and other furturistic FPS.

UE3 can make some really great looking games - the tech is there. Now other devs just need to hire better artists - and by that I don't mean who can draw good concept art but can draw something different looking altogether. They need to get away from the archetype created by games like Gears in this gen.
 
Funny enough...nothing comes close to Bioshock...Except for Crysis. Its just Bioshock is what great graphics are all about. It is a great use on both the technical side and the art side.
 
shintoki said:
Funny enough...nothing comes close to Bioshock...Except for Crysis. Its just Bioshock is what great graphics are all about. It is a great use on both the technical side and the art side.

While I do agree the game looked fantastic. Imo it way overused the whole shiny surface and plastic look to everything technique that UE3 games can often be accustomed too. In Bioshock more than most I'd say.
 
nib95 said:
While I do agree the game looked fantastic. Imo it way overused the whole shiny surface and plastic look to everything technique that UE3 games can often be accustomed too. In Bioshock more than most I'd say.
You are correct, most of next-gen games are too 'shiny' to my liking....
 
dmshaposv said:
Its not shocking. Other devs are just lazy and jumping on the "gritty warfare" bandwagon established by popular shooters like Gears, Killzone and other furturistic FPS.

UE3 can make some really great looking games - the tech is there. Now other devs just need to hire better artists - and by that I don't mean who can draw good concept art but can draw something different looking altogether. They need to get away from the archetype created by games like Gears in this gen.

Gears and Killzone hate, how original...

(Kidding, I totally agree with you!)
 
viciouskillersquirrel said:
I was responding to your comment about Nintendo's next console being graphically underpowered. I was essentially saying that there are very good reasons for this to not be the case.

The reasons are business related (competitive advantage, marketing mix and all that). Because of Nintendo's advantages in other areas, they were able to forgo the tech race this time around. Since those advantages will disappear next gen, they might not be able to do that next gen.

I see what you're saying now, and I completely agree with you there. I hope Nintendo sees fit to offer a massive increase in power over Wii. The Wii chipset is very much late 1990s technology, since GameCube is late 1990s technology. If Nintendo was to offer a console in 2011, 2012, 2013 or whenever, with a chipset that was both modern for the time in terms of features, and reasonable in terms of power/performance/speed
(i.e. midrange by PC standards of that time), they would effectively take Nintendo gamers from GCN/Wii, who are acustomised/used to GCN/Wii graphics, forward by two console generations!

Also, my comment about the next leap not being so huge, I simply refer to the fact that both Sony and Microsoft are likely to be gun-shy about using such expensive tech in their next consoles given what happened to them this gen. I predict that the leap will be more conservative, because they won't be prepared to spend as much. I do admit though, that the technological leap as compared to cost may not have a straight-forward relationship.


That's very possible. We'll just see. One thing that I believe (perhaps wrongly) on the side of a larger leap, at least in visuals, is that resolution won't make another big leap next-gen. The console game industry will still be at the same 720p, 1080i, 1080p resolutions of today. Sure, there will be more 1080p games than this gen, but GPUs won't have to, again, fork over performance that just goes into increasing resolution, beyond what is already needed today. Although I suppose the arguement could be made that many games this gen are BELOW native 720p and that many games NEXT gen will be AT native 1080p, which is significantly higher resolution.

But it won't be like going from last-gen 480p to 720p/1080p which demands 3-6 times the pixel fillrate, higher bandwidth,and more RAM for basicly similar graphics at higher res. With 360/PS3, with their GPUs pushing resolutions that are 2.5 or 3 and upto 6 times more pixels, there wasn't much additional power beyond that to really improve the graphics themselves very much. Yes they are improved over last-gen, but not even close to as much as last-gen consoles improved over the gen before it.

So on the resolution front, things should have stabalised. If Microsoft/Sony can get much better GPUs, then in-game graphics can improve alot. I don't think the CPU leap will need to be as much, even though they'll go from multi-core to manycore, assuming all the articles we read are true. Sony won't need to invest massively in a whole new type of CPU. IBM can do most of the work for Sony. If though, Microsoft and Sony go with very modest leaps in performance, not as small as GCN to Wii (1.5x) but still small, like, 2x to 3x, then we will only be catching upto current HD resolution requirements, that 360/PS3 are barely handling properly (or aren't handling very well with some games) and so next-gen we WILL have games that look alot like current games.

Ultimately, Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo don't give a shit about what I would like to see, but their bottem line. Yet, within that even, there should be some good stuff ahead, because of that wonderful thing called competition.
 
Topic wouldn't be complete without:
"As seems to be common with the current generation, 'Realism' means the graphics look like I'm viewing them through a used coffee filter: What isn't brown is gray, and what isn't gray is too dark to make out. I thank Christ for the automatic lockon in the firefights because all the enemies are indistinct dark blobs in an indistinct dark blob factory."
-Ben 'Yahtzee' Croshaw, on Grand Theft Auto IV
 
shintoki said:
Funny enough...nothing comes close to Bioshock...Except for Crysis. Its just Bioshock is what great graphics are all about. It is a great use on both the technical side and the art side.
wat?When I played it, all I could think about was how much the UE3 engine made such great art direction look so terrible, and how they could have done a lot better if they'd made their own engine. Also, the textures on the enemies were pretty jarringly bad. Am I the only was who was actively unimpressed by bioshock?
 
rohlfinator said:
There are XBLA/PSN devs making games that are technically more impressive than most last-gen games, in some cases with as few as three developers. Seems to me that it's easier than ever to make amazing-looking games with a low budget or small studio. (See JavaMava's post for more awesome evidence.) The great thing about hardware advancement is that it allows the big studios with big budgets to push graphics even further and makes it easier for the little guy to make a visually appealing game.

The rising budget problem seems to mostly stem from developers overestimating their sales potential, and then spending too much money to compete in crowded genres. It's not so much a problem with hardware power, but with the mindset of a lot of publishers. At some point, more publishers are going to need to adopt the Stardock model (i.e.: don't spend more than your game is going to make).
Good point!
 
sky said:
That is a really valid concern.

Less to do with how much it actually costs to make a game though and more to do with the very deliberate attempt to make the gaming industry all high profile and movie industry like.

Assets have for a long time been designed at much higher qualities than what's used in game, cinematics and backdrops have for a long time been rendered from high quality assets for years, and they've been doing real music for ages. The increase in costs hasn't come from sudden increases in dev team sizes and tool costs. And they've paid proper voice actors for years.

The increase in cost has purely come from people suddenly wanting more money for an increasingly less ridiculable job.
 
Spoit said:
wat?When I played it, all I could think about was how much the UE3 engine made such great art direction look so terrible, and how they could have done a lot better if they'd made their own engine. Also, the textures on the enemies were pretty jarringly bad. Am I the only was who was actively unimpressed by bioshock?
Probably not, but I would have to disagree. I think Bioshock is the engine's graphical showcase, and it is probably the best looking game that will still run at a solid framerate on my computer. UE3.0 scales wonderfully.
 
drohne said:
nintendo likes to err on the side of BIG FAT FUCKING PROFIT MARGINS AT THE EXPENSE OF ALL ELSE -- think n64 cartridges as much as gamecube turbo. and right now they've got to feel like they can do no wrong. unless this generation takes a drastic turn which makes it very clear that good hardware is back in style, i'm pretty sure nintendo's next console will be implausibly underpowered. i'm sure they could adapt respectable low-end pc hardware for their purposes -- but they could have done that with wii too

You DO know that price per unit costs for the next generation nintendo unit will probably be about the same (with inflation adjustments) as the current gen Wii right? That means that when the next generation push starts (4 years down the line probably), the Wii2 will have at least the power to play in 1080p.
 
I'd be fine with this generation's graphics being natively rendered at actual HD resolutions at a steady high framerate which, honestly, is about what I suspect next gen is going to be like. The evolution will be much more gradual than I'm sure people are expecting.
 
20060515175447_0big.jpg

More of this please.
 
nib95 said:
Enemy character models suck, but everything else? :O
They haven't revealed other enemies yet. I guess it might reveal something about the game they can't or don't want to show yet. This is very much the opening area of the game anyway.
 
More focus on art style. I like a strong game that strong in the graphical department but I can't stand looking at some characters and environments. I've always enjoyed the clean look of Portal and Half Life 2.
 
zoukka said:
I just hope to god they don't try anything higher than 720p in next generation.


If I had my way, no game would be over 480p and all GPU performance would go into making the actual graphics much smoother, of better quality, more detailed, more like CG in how it looks, as much as is possible within the limits of realtime.

However, in the next-generation, there is no doubt quite a few developers WILL choose to render in native 1080p resolution. And It's only logical to think that a higher percentage of games (compared to this gen) will be 1080p. Even if that's not what some of us want. That said, many next-gen games will be 720p. I would imagine that 720p games will still outnumber 1080p games, but we will get more 1080p.

Also, even though I KNOW it won't happen, I'd like to see the vast majority of games run at 60fps, and a consistant, locked 60fps. This has been said in countless threads, I know, but I still want it.

The only example of this I can point to is the arcade segment of the industry.
From 1993/1994 forward, the vast majority of NAMCO & SEGA arcade games were 60fps, starting with the System22 and MODEL 2 boards.

Like 95~99% of the games for System22, MODEL 2 family, System 11, Super System 22, MODEL 3 family System 12, System 23, Super System 23, NAOMI, HIKARU, NAOMI 2, System 246, TriForce, Chihiro, System 258, all the way upto Lindbergh and Taito TypeX etc. were 60fps.

The amount of 30fps games were vastly, VASTLY out numbered by the amount of 60fps games. You saw a larger amount of 30fps games on the 3Dfx-based arcade hardware, but all the not-shitty arcade boards had 60fps games, galore.
 
VaLiancY said:
More focus on art style. I like a strong game that strong in the graphical department but I can't stand looking at some characters and environments. I've always enjoyed the clean look of Portal and Half Life 2.

Yes.
Good artwork, art direction, character design, world design, etc, is far more important than technically good graphics. Great graphics, technically, can only help, but can't make up for poorly designed characters, environments and bad art.
 
The key things for me, with regard to visuals, is (as ive been saying) much higher quality rendering per frame. realtime needs to start looking more like CG through the use of MUCH better filtering, anti-aliasing. better motion, better animation, true motion blur, sub-pixel lighting. I guess things that I don't understand much like tessellation, sub-pixel polygons, or whatever. I don't understand much of the technical jargin.

I want games to look like 1990s television series that were CG. I don't mean Reboot, I mean stuff like Voltron The Third Dimension:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=VCb20iuCMXg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WDcB6qYYrK8

Perhaps not artistically, but technically. Oh and definitally NOT the human characters but, the robots :)

I just want next-generation games to look and move more like CG. And no I am not expecting or even hoping for Final Fantasy The Spirits Within or Pixar or any high-budget film grade CG. Like I said, I'd be happy with the level of CG seen in 90s television series.
 
plufim said:
Next generation will look almost as good as last generations best CG.


That's what I am hoping for. Even if it doesn't happen. But I am beginning to think it might. Given what we've just seen from AMD's new Ruby Cinema 2.0 and Scorpion tech-demos, those are more or less, close to last-gen CG. Maybe not last-gen's BEST CG, but still CG-like. things like tons of super highres texture-mapping can go away. I want smooth CG like animation and geometry detail and lighting.
 
camineet said:
If I had my way, no game would be over 480p and all GPU performance would go into making the actual graphics much smoother, of better quality, more detailed, more like CG in how it looks, as much as is possible within the limits of realtime.

It doesn't work like that.

If you work less pixels, you can do more work to each one, yet there are still types of work you cannot do.

The things that make CG (even outdated cg) stand apart from live game rendering lie in the realm of "work you cannot do."

So as you optimize a game for lower resolutions, you can do more of the same type of work you where doing before, but not neccessarily anything you couldn't do less of at a higher resolution.

It's besides my point but I'll point out the sophisticated lighting methods used in offline-rendering as an example of effects that are for practical purposes off-limits to current consoles at any resolution.
 
Crayon said:
It doesn't work like that.

If you work less pixels, you can do more work to each one, yet there are still types of work you cannot do.

The things that make CG (even outdated cg) stand apart from live game rendering lie in the realm of "work you cannot do."

So as you optimize a game for lower resolutions, you can do more of the same type of work you where doing before, but not neccessarily anything you couldn't do less of at a higher resolution.

It's besides my point but I'll point out the sophisticated lighting methods used in offline-rendering as an example of effects that are for practical purposes off-limits to current consoles at any resolution.

I kind of do understand it doesn't work like that. I didn't make my post very clear.

I understand that limiting current consoles to 480p is still not going to allow them to do things that can be done in offline rendered CG. It might help framerates though, and do more of other things that they're already capable of.

That said, with next-generation consoles, with new capabilities, assuming they'll be able to do more things that imitate/mimic certain aspects & qualities of offline/prerendered CG, well, that's what I was trying to get at.
 
It was pretty painful to see glimpses of 60fps in MGS4 when you faced walls or used Thermal in certain sections. Probably the single most hard hitting thing in Sons of Liberty was the smoothness of the game. You really couldn't believe your eyes the first time you saw it.

And no matter how dated the game today looks, the frame rate impresses me every single time I dig in to it.

It's a shame how important it is for games to look good in promotional stills.
 
I'll use a classic game I'm currently replaying, Baldur's Gate, to illustrate the next-gen look.

Baldur's Gate:
bg1_original843.jpg


Baulders Gatez HD:
bg1_nextgen697.jpg
 
The muted tones suit certain games, whether you like that look or not. It just seems to be too easy to make a game look "tighter" in terms of how the artistic assets work together by making them all the same hue with a filter and some grain.

Just Cause and Saint's Row are a couple of games that deserve more praise, both full of bright gorgeous colours and still retaining a lot of detail for open world games.
 
viciouskillersquirrel said:
The reasons are business related (competitive advantage, marketing mix and all that). Because of Nintendo's advantages in other areas, they were able to forgo the tech race this time around. Since those advantages will disappear next gen, they might not be able to do that next gen.
You're wrong, first of all Sony and MS releasing "Wiimotes" and trying to cater to the casual market doesn't mean those "advantages will disappear next gen". By your logic that advantage should disappear next month (E3). Secondly it's not that "competitive advantage" that allowed them to forgo the tech race, it's the fact that the casual gamer doesn't give a flying fuck about graphical tech.
 
RockmanWhore said:

This is the shit I'm talking about.

I really like the Mass Effect Decisions trailer : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaOefLX9fHA

I would love to be playing games that look like this next gen.

Truthfully, I want to see games with more variety in graphics. While it's common and maybe even necessary for movies to have a uniform "look", a lot of games are long enough to pull out all stops and give us a visual montage of styles and looks. Why can't there be a gears level where the sun just happens to be shining?

What REALLY needs to be worked on imo is animation, nuances of movement and expressions, that kind of thing. In that ME trailer above, the graphics aren't even all that great, it's the little things that make me say "Yeah, no way that could be done on consoles right now". The way Ashley puts her hand up so that Garrus doesn't talk, just small touches like that.

Of course, once I point out things like that, then I'm not really just describing graphics, I'm talking about what games I specifically like to play should work on. I mean, Mario certainly doesn't need to work on animation or nuanced movement. It all really just depends on the game.

The graphical jump isn't a concern to me, how developers start using environments and the like is. I don't want to see games that have doors I can't enter anymore. I don't want to see games where beautiful environments are basically useless backgrounds that serve no purpose. I would take a smaller scaled game with more interaction in that environment before I took a supposedly "huge" scaled game where you can't really go anywhere.

The party system in a some WRPG's where you pick 2 or 3 members to roll with you...get rid of it please. Why can't I have a WRPG with a JRPG type party system where I roll with the whole crew.

Enemy AI....have we even seen a jump in it this gen? I surely haven't noticed one.

2 Minutes Turkish said:
I don't think the word 'SHINY' has been used enough to describe the current gen.

That's been the most disturbing trend. 'Shiny' games.

Not sure if this is exactly what you mean, but I really hate the rim lighting seen on a lot of games now. I may be completely alone on this, but I personally think SC4 looks terrible. I think the best looking one is SC2 on Xbox. SC4 has this terrible rim lighting that makes everyone glow like a lamp.

2qbaz4l.jpg


wswsub.jpg
 
Chittagong said:
Yep, that AMD demo is cool, here's a bigger shot

2585849022_2dc42296fe_b.jpg


another screenshot from AMD:

2585016023_341219cf32_b.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzquM5Td6bM&NR=1
http://youtube.com/watch?v=x2fS9covXBs

Scorpion video looks so great. However, I wonder if the talent is really out there to make a full length game look like this, with animation as good as that scorpion.

I would love to hear how much that cost to make. I wonder how many artist worked on it.

Every gen, about a week after I get my system, I'm already wondering about more. When games reach that level of realism however, I feel that I will be as satisfied as I will ever be....:D

BTW, I haven't bought any PGR games this gen, however, the most blown away I have been this gen is the PGR3 garage that's in the demo. It looks amazing, and I can tell from the way you move through it that it's not something that can be done outside of a very controlled environment as it is, however, I could easily see that being the kind of graphics we will have for next gen.
 
Scorpion video looks so great. However, I wonder if the talent is really out there to make a full length game look like this, with animation as good as that scorpion.

I think during the first year or two of the next generation cycle, we won't see full length games with the maximum amount of detail that'll be possible, which should be beyond that Scorpion demo. But probably, shorter, smaller games. Then as the generation goes on, larger games will appear with max-detailed worlds with slicker animation. This after new tools are introduced to allow the creation of the maximum possible detail in game worlds more quickly & more cheaply. Probably not unlike how this gen will turn out.
 
Liara T'Soni said:
Not sure if this is exactly what you mean, but I really hate the rim lighting seen on a lot of games now. I may be completely alone on this, but I personally think SC4 looks terrible. I think the best looking one is SC2 on Xbox. SC4 has this terrible rim lighting that makes everyone glow like a lamp.

That's bloom

You're not alone in the thought, SC4 isn't impressive it's a glorified SC3 that's the engine and some assets are clearly from it especially some of the modeling despite the upgrades to them. SC3 had better environments than 2 but they need to go back to SC1 levels of animation and model development as the series has been slipping clearly at this point.

camineet cg levels won't appear till lighting, polys, and animation all get up to the levels of what even old CG could do. Yes there are games that still are good in terms of effects or shaders, but the change you want needs to happen in those 3 for them to even be really compariable. I'm somewhat hopeful that next gen we will have more consistency we may even get ray tracing seeing as how people are already playing with it now, there are gameplay and environmental advantages to using ray tracking btw. Consoles aren't gonna hit this area of being next gen in my book, I don't even feel pcs are next gen simply due to computational limits that will be in place for sometime. Things may get better but defining generation is hard at this point since a lot have relative standards based on a incomplete history.
 
Kabouter said:
Anno 1701
This game deserves all the attention it can get and if posting that screenshots gets people to buy and play the game that's awesome but, damn you've posted that screenshot a lot, iirc. I've already seen that screenshot twice today in two different threads (i think the awesome isometric thread?) and I know i've seen it at least more than a dozen times posted by you here on GAF. Did you work on the game or is it just that awesome to you? :lol
 
I'd also take Phantasy Star Universe CG as a starting point:

phantasy-star-universe-screens-20040601061957623_640w.jpg


phantasy-star-universe-screens-20040601061949077_640w.jpg




Doesn't appear to look much better than current-gen realtime, but in motion, it does.

It's typical low-end CG.
 
LCGeek said:
That's bloom

I think it is actually a shader operation that puts a sort of environment specular map on the characters to make them edge lit. Bloom is just bloom which is the framebuffer finding parts of the image that are whiter than white and making them glow. Bloom is a tunable parameter in the majority of engines.
 
More importantly why the fuck are we still referring to the current generation as next? Are we still waiting for some announced console to come out?

I think the thread title should say what is the look of "THIS" generation!

fake edit: the look is bloom and brownness.
 
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