MugiwaraCole
Member
I never want to meet the monsters who got through Peter repeatedly screaming "NOOOOOO" as he watched Yondu die in front of him without so much as choking up.
I never want to meet the monsters who got through Peter repeatedly screaming "NOOOOOO" as he watched Yondu die in front of him without so much as choking up.
It's centered correctly. One side is trying really fucking hard to apprehend the others but then it turns into some weird Benny Hill stuff. It's A LOT like the opening to Age of Ultron where. Civil War does try to be serious and then it's even more confusing cause you have Black Widow and Hawk Eye making jokes then Black Widow is serious near the end? It's tonally confusing. It's kind of like they're trying to lessen the idea that these super heroes will be thrown in a super max prison (but then they do it anyway).they're making jokes about swearing while they're actually killing a bunch of goons: it's inconsistent because the movie wants you take it seriously but they're pulling shit like that.
It's just not well done.
Dark knight.I don't like comparing the two, because Wonder Woman was great, but, let's not do this. The Winter Soldier is arguably the best movie in the genre.
You seem to be harboring the delusion that a scene can be for more than one thing at once.
Which is weird, cause you prove capable of that level of nuance for any movie not made by Marvel Studios.
NoWonder Woman was incredibly cheesy and corny. Some of it comes from sincerity, but most of it comes from being cheesy and corny.
So I did something weird and watched the entire video before posting.
I think he's making a good argument with some poor examples, particularly the one in Doctor Strange. The joke he's contrasting with the Spiderman clip was pretty well set up in advance and, IIRC, was the release of a pretty long build up of tension that, for me at least, didn't actually detract from the moment.
Doctor Strange was also pretty disciplined, or at least more disciplined, about how it deployed jokes than most of the Marvel films. In particular the entireaction sequence that ends with the Ancient One's death, and her long, graceful death scene - the conversation as the snow fell - which went totally uninterrupted, tonally.
He's also cherry picking with Civil War, a film with numerous sustained and very serious action scenes and character moments. Too many to list, really. The whole point of the airport showdown was to bounce the characters off one another, literally and otherwise. I agree it was tonally all over the place, but most of the rest of the film wasn't, so it's misleading to use that to paint the film with that brush.
All that said, I think he's clicked onto why I just don't feel that invested in the Marvel films despite enjoying them and watching almost all of them. They are fun but also feel utterly disposable to me. On the flip side, Wonder Woman's emotional heft hit me pretty hard, and I actually cried at, and a big part of that was because of how sincere the relationship and characters are. No Marvel film has resonated anywhere nearly as strongly with me.Steve's death scene and the subsequent aftermath
At this moment I'm more invested in Diana's character than I am in Tony Stark's, despite seeing who knows how many films with the latter. Marvel undercutting their drama constantly is probably part of the reason why, though not the only reason.
Yup, hear hearCaptain America remains one of the best Marvel films because it doesn't always undercut its emotional scenes with a joke.
I would argue Wonder Woman looks at Captain America and does it better.
It absolutely is not. The scene has 12 separate characters with different personalities all interacting with each other. Most of them are good natured people and most of them are friends, just divided across a line. Some parts are serious, like Tony and Cap, because they're legitimately angry at each other. Others are lighter, like Hawkeye and BW, because they care about each other and no way in hell are they gonna really try and harm each other. So when BW is serious at the end, it's cause she's not fighting her best friend anymore - she's fighting one of the few characters there who is angry as hell and actually trying to kill someone. A giant setpiece involving that many characters is going to be 'tonally inconsistent' cause they don't all hate each other, and therefore have different motivations for being there.
If you wanna criticise AoU, that's fine. That's an entirely different beast.
I liked Winter Soldier but No Man's Land in Wonder Woman pushes it above TWS for me.I don't like comparing the two, because Wonder Woman was great, but, let's not do this. The Winter Soldier is arguably the best movie in the genre.
Patty won me over with that quote not long ago. She has my sword.
I'm
Like what is this even.
I never want to meet the monsters who got through Peter repeatedly screaming "NOOOOOO" as hewithout so much as choking up.watched Yondu die in front of him
It absolutely is not. The scene has 12 separate characters with different personalities all interacting with each other. Most of them are good natured people and most of them are friends, just divided across a line. Some parts are serious, like Tony and Cap, because they're legitimately angry at each other. Others are lighter, like Hawkeye and BW, because they care about each other and no way in hell are they gonna really try and harm each other. So when BW is serious at the end, it's cause she's not fighting her best friend anymore - she's fighting one of the few characters there who is angry as hell and actually trying to kill someone. A giant setpiece involving that many characters is going to be 'tonally inconsistent' cause they don't all hate each other, and therefore have different motivations for being there.
If you wanna criticise AoU, that's fine. That's an entirely different beast.
AlsoI loved the movie, but thereally pulled me out of the scene emotionally.framing of his knick knacks and some of the jokes during the funeral scene for Yondu
Again, these are simple explanations when the backdrop is them literally being apprehended to stand trial or go directly to prison. Their motivations for being there are to either help people escape or capture them. Like, what should I be feeling or thinking during that entire set piece? That's the problem, no one knows.
I loved the movie, but thereally pulled me out of the scene emotionally.framing of his knick knacks and some of the jokes during the funeral scene for Yondu
Again, these are simple explanations when the backdrop is them literally being apprehended to stand trial or go directly to prison. Their motivations for being there are to either help people escape or capture them. Like, what should I be feeling or thinking during that entire set piece? That's the problem, no one knows.
Alsowe barely see Peter and Yondu interact in both movies. And when they did in the first it was mostly antagonistic towards each other. It was hard to really care about that relationship.
1) That's weird.
2) I'm not even talking about the funeral. Just his death. There were no jokes. No gags. Just a guy watching the man who raised him die in the vacuum of space after killing his asshole biological father.
Again, these are simple explanations when the backdrop is them literally being apprehended to stand trial or go directly to prison. Their motivations for being there are to either help people escape or capture them. Like, what should I be feeling or thinking during that entire set piece? That's the problem, no one knows.
The humor in WW had a great balance in humor, but the villains gassing that room and giggling like schoolgirls was about as cheesy as it gets.
You do know you're not actually refuting my critisisms right?You being unable to dive into the deeper relationships at play there is huh.
"Either helping people escape or capturing them."
It's like you're a renowned film critic right up to the moment these films try to do something sincere. Then it's "oh no, jokes, contrasting character motivations, pick one Mahvel!"
Totally agree. There is nothing about the MCU that feels heartfelt or sincere. It's all gloss, manufactured by committee.
Real films, like LOGAN, need to become the norm (though not necessarily cut from the same subject matter).
To Copy Paste Captain America Films?
Title's a bit over the top, putting undue pressure on Wonder Woman. But it's ultimately spot-on in the vacuum of modern superhero movies.I liked the movie but come on...
Is PopMovie-Gaf always this..........passionate. lol
Title's a bit over the top, putting undue pressure on Wonder Woman. But it's ultimately spot-on in the vacuum of modern superhero movies.
Should be more like "what writers should STOP doing - starring the MCU."
I think that's overly cynical. Sure there are similarities but the two characters, their histories and origins, motivations, what they stand for, and how they connect with others and the modern world (and why they connect with them the way they do) is so completely different.
I think there's more in common thematically between Iron Man (the first) and Doctor Strange. Their demons and disabilities are different, but they hit essentially all of the same beats.
The entire end sequence of GOTG2 was very effective for me. It really makes the entire argument that the MCU lacks sincerity feel laughable.I never want to meet the monsters who got through Peter repeatedly screaming "NOOOOOO" as he watched Yondu die in front of him without so much as choking up.
To Copy Paste Captain America Films?
The snark and jokes all the time in the MCU takes away from the seriousness of the situation and make characters jokes.I disagree with some of his examples. Notably, Civil War. For me, a well designed Bathos moment doesn't take away from the drama of what is happening. Tony Stark snarking is well established to be not just a characteristic but a compulsion from which he is unable to stop in almost any event in he experiences. For me, Tony Stark making lines that are 100% in character doesn't take away from the drama that he is confronting his friends. It's almost like it's not even a joke to him, it's just how he speaks.
You don't need to look at stark though. When I saw The Dark Knight in theaters, half the lines the Joker gave were funny and the audience laughed without losing a single instance of not just the drama, but also the sheer uncomfortable menace.
So I agree with him that using Bathos has the risk of undercutting the drama (ultron was really bad at this), but I disagree that it's a sure thing.
And I do agree with his larger point that I wish more movies were made with the authenticity of Wonder Woman.
You do know you're not actually refuting my critisisms right?
The entire end sequence of GOTG2 was very effective for me. It really makes the entire argument that the MCU lacks sincerity feel laughable.
Right. That entire third act was emotional. Jokes don't undercut that. Acting like general audiences weren't at all touched by it is a step too far, too.
"The air in the theater was confused." What does that even mean? Lmfao
It means people in my theater had confused chuckles and laughter at points during a funeral scene. Of course, that's just anecdotal evidence, but I mean so is yours.
I'm also not saying that general audiences weren't touched at all. In fact, I love the movie and the way it handles the relationships between pretty much all of the characters for the most part. I'm just saying it would be even better if the frequency and placement of the jokes were different to let certain emotional scenes speak for itself.
Honestly the more and more it's used, the harder I find the "jokes" argument to be taken seriously. It really feels like the people who get hung up on it either get tripped up on the smallest things or just wants all super serious all the time. Like people know conversations in the real world aren't just one tone?
Right? Like people have had conversations that have begun angry or serious and ended in levity?
Right?
The snark and jokes all the time in the MCU takes away from the seriousness of the situation and make characters jokes.
The Joker a great character, his delivery was creepy more than funny. He never stopped being dangerous for one second while Marvel villains jokes fall flat and crap on their character. As far as the "drama" of civil war all I have to say is lol. The made up drama in civil fell flat because of dumb plot and conclusion.
Brutal.
You can laugh during a funeral scene and still be touche-...you guys know humans are capable of feeling more than one emotion at a time, right? Those audience members weren't confused.
There are plenty of scenes they let breathe on their own with no humor. Them not doing that in all the scenes that you want them to do that in is, meh.
i guess i need to rewatch winter soldier because i just don't get how it was this genre defining film. in my memory it was equal to avengers 1.
Yes, I'm the meh one for not wanting jokes during a funeral scene.
I dunno, these are summer blockbusters, they are aimed at people who generally aren't very emotionally open or honest. Usually you hear someone laugh at sad scenes in the theatre.