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[Faithless83]

This will be a long read, please bear with me.

I'm posting this as a fan of the original game.

After seeing the reactions on streams I was wondering: "why would you go such a length to piss off your audience like that?"

By the end of the original TLOU the writer let the audience judge if Joel was right or wrong. The problem is, there was only one right answer. Even though there was no garantee that it would've actually work, that a vaccine could have been made; the right answer was: "Joel is the bad guy that doomed the entire human race."

The revenge is actually on you, the game was to make you suffer for not choosing the right answer, for not agreeing with the writer.

The guilt trip starts early, with Joel confessing to Tommy what happened. Since Tommy sides with Joel, he is a bad guy too. The game goes on with "Tommy was a torturer, him and Joel did a lot of nasty stuff". Up until the end, it tries to paint Tommy as a bully, pushing Ellie to lose Dina.

If you are on Joel's side, it's going to be a painfull and nasty journey. Then, you play for hours as the one that caused all the suffering, she also spares your life time and time again during the game.

The revenge, the only reason that kept the player (and Ellie) on going is denied at the last second. You won't have it your way.

But how to make people fall for it and actually buy the game? Make the game so woke, that no one dares to question the plot holes and borderline insane characters decisions. Who in their right minds would have said "this game is not a 10/10" in this day and age? Imagine the backlash this person would suffer? No need to imagine, the SJW are hard at work as I'm posting this.

Update: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/angry-joe-being-accused-of-sexual-harassment.1550079/unread

Guess what his opinion on TLOU2 is? Isn't the timing a bit too perfect? He spent the weekend bashing the game on stream for its story (he praised the graphics and animations).

Reviewers know each other and some are even friends. They chose to live and I'm not sure we can blame them for it.

TL;DR: In the end of the original TLOU, Joel was wrong. If you think he was right, we'll make you suffer for 25 hours and you'll pay for it.

 

[D.Final]

Make a franchise
I suppose

 

[Mister Wolf]

Revenge is bad, same as Moby Dick and Naruto.

 

[Faithless83]

Make a franchise
I suppose

If that's your best reply, it looks like I've hit the nail in the head.

 

[JOEVIAL]

Do I have to spoiler tag anything I say about this? Anywho... to each their own opinion. But with the evidence shown in the 1st Last of Us... there was a very, very small chance that a successful vaccine could have been produced. I completely agree with Joel on the matter, and he was not the bad guy. He believed humanity and society was lost, and in all reality it was. There is no escaping that fact. Even if a vaccine were produced, it would do no good in grand scheme of things. Society was gone. All he cared about was Ellie. His love for Ellie was the right decision.

I mean, people are getting just a small taste of it right now in America... society crumbles fast and hard. There is no way that society would come back from a devastating virus like the one the Last of Us portrays.

 

[Nikana]

Revenge is bad, same as Moby Dick and Naruto.

The Punisher tells this story far better.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Joel made his decision. Every action has a consequence, he makes a clear statement if given the choice to go back in time he'd do it all again. What comes after is his unfortunate fate. He's not a good person, he has countless bodies beneath him. He fucks people over and kills if he has to. He did it to survive but it still doesn't mean it was just.

He made a choice to rectify his mistakes and save his new surrogate daughter and got a rocky but happy 5 years with her. Nothing lasts forever and your actions will catch up with you eventually. Ellie wishes she died when she found out the truth but she's still alive and despite their relations goes out on a quest for unfulfilling revenge because she cared for him.

 

[Faithless83]

Joel made his decision. Every action has a consequence, he makes a clear statement if given the choice to go back in time he'd do it all again. What comes after is his unfortunate fate. He's not a good person, he has countless bodies beneath him. He fucks people over and kills if he has to. He did it to survive but it still doesn't mean it was just.

He made a choice to rectify his mistakes and save his new surrogate daughter and got a rocky but happy 5 years with her. Nothing lasts forever and your actions will catch up with you eventually. Ellie wishes she died when she found out the truth but she's still alive and despite their relations goes out on a quest for unfulfilling revenge because she cared for him.

I see your point, my problem with it is how it was developed. It's just out to get the players that thought Joel was right. To the point that made the first journey meaningless. Everyone in that world was at a "it's you or me, sorry" situation all the time. Why the "fate" applies to him and not to Abby? It was poorly written "revenge is wrong" lesson, but it only applies to one part of the cast.

Abby killed and tortured her saviour mercilessly, "but Joel had it coming for killing to save a life."

 

[psorcerer]

By the end of the original TLOU the writer let the audience judge if Joel was right or wrong.

No. We know now that the writer was all wrong and the epicness of TLOU ethics was just a fluke.
I.e. the scene in TLOU2 where Ellie is mad at Joel for not telling "the truth" automatically makes TLOU 50/100 instead of 97/100.
It's kind of a sad situation actually, when you realize that the praise for the original was undeserved.

 

[Faithless83]

No. We know now that the writer was all wrong and the epicness of TLOU ethics was just a fluke.
I.e. the scene in TLOU2 where Ellie is mad at Joel for not telling "the truth" automatically makes TLOU 50/100 instead of 97/100.
It's kind of a sad situation actually, when you realize that the praise for the original was undeserved.

I thought that was brilliant writing back then. Now it feels like it was just an oversight.

 

[Woggleman]

Whether or not you think it succeeds is a worthy subject of debate but it attempts to show you both sides of this story and everybody in this game thinks they are the good guys in their own story. Both Abby and Ellie in many ways are mirror images of each other and both of their fathers were doing what they thought was right, It is not a game with set villains and heroes though the seraphites are insane, Ellie while most likely glad to be alive also has heavy survivors guilt because her life is possible at the expense of humanity in general,

 

[psorcerer]

I thought that was brilliant writing back then. Now it feels like it was just an oversight.

Yup. It's a like a Von Trier movie, when you realize that the director is just a whiny little shit who likes to play with peoples emotions.

 

[Fake]

Promove Abby I guess. Thats explain 'why' they hidden her so much in the traillers.

Spoiler

If part 3 happens, will be Abby and Lev playing as like part 1 Joel and Ellie

 

[psorcerer]

heavy survivors guilt because her life is possible at the expense of humanity in general

That specific "truth" destroys not only TLOU2 as a good writing, but TLOU as well.

 

[DForce]

I like Abby as a character. If they make TLOU Part III, then I don't want to see Lev by her side.

 

[Woggleman]

That specific "truth" destroys not only TLOU2 as a good writing, but TLOU as well.

She already alludes to survivor's guilt at the end of the first one.

 

[psorcerer]

She already alludes to survivor's guilt at the end of the first one.

So what. The whole brilliance of the first game was in the premise that inter-human relationships can trump "greater good".
And the second game specifically states that it's false. I.e. nullifies both games ethics in one blow.

 

[vodka-bull]

This.

 

[Guilty_AI]

This is the point of the game VVV

Spoiler

 

[Werewolf Jones]

I see your point, my problem with it is how it was developed. It's just out to get the players that thought Joel was right. To the point that made the first journey meaningless. Everyone in that world was at a "it's you or me, sorry" situation all the time. Why the "fate" applies to him and not to Abby? It was poorly written "revenge is wrong" lesson, but it only applies to one part of the cast.

Abby killed and tortured her saviour mercilessly, "but Joel had it coming for killing to save a life."

Abby's entire circle of friends and supporters were killed though, Ellie killed 4, Tommy killed 1 and the Seraphites killed 1. Abby is literally left with one person she saved and was put in a similar situation as Joel was in a shorter time frame with Ellie. For Abby to be stripped of everything she had is a worse fate than dying.

Ellie could have killed Abby right at the end (Which I think she shouldn't but it should have been written better.) but what's it going to do? Bring Joel back? Ellie had the chance for a new start and threw it away for the obsession of Abby and returned to nothing in the process.

Also at the end of the game Ellie is worse than Joel. She killed for satisfaction, Joel killed for survival. She never even got what she wanted.

 

[Faithless83]

Whether or not you think it succeeds is a worthy subject of debate but it attempts to show you both sides of this story and everybody in this game thinks they are the good guys in their own story. Both Abby and Ellie in many ways are mirror images of each other and both of their fathers were doing what they thought was right, It is not a game with set villains and heroes though the seraphites are insane, Ellie while most likely glad to be alive also has heavy survivors guilt because her life is possible at the expense of humanity in general,

It has so many plot holes and everyone in there is so out of character, it felt like a whiny kid destroying a sand castle "I've made it and I can destroy it if I want!"

 

[Roni]

This will be a long read, please bear with me.

I'm posting this as a fan of the original game.

After seeing the reactions on streams I was wondering: "why would you go such a length to piss off your audience like that?"

By the end of the original TLOU the writer let the audience judge if Joel was right or wrong. The problem is, there was only one right answer. Even though there was no garantee that it would've actually work, that a vaccine could have been made; the right answer was: "Joel is the bad guy that doomed the entire human race."

The revenge is actually on you, the game was to make you suffer for not choosing the right answer, for not agreeing with the writer.

The guilt trip starts early, with Joel confessing to Tommy what happened. Since Tommy sides with Joel, he is a bad guy too. The game goes on with "Tommy was a torturer, him and Joel did a lot of nasty stuff". Up until the end, it tries to paint Tommy as a bully, pushing Ellie to lose Dina.

If you are on Joel's side, it's going to be a painfull and nasty journey. Then, you play for hours as the one that caused all the suffering, she also spares your life time and time again during the game.

The revenge, the only reason that kept the player (and Ellie) on going is denied at the last second. You won't have it your way.

But how to make people fall for it and actually buy the game? Make the game so woke, that no one dares to question the plot holes and borderline insane characters decisions. Who in their right minds would have said "this game is not a 10/10" in this day and age? Imagine the backlash this person would suffer? No need to imagine, the SJW are hard at work as I'm posting this.

Update: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/angry-joe-being-accused-of-sexual-harassment.1550079/unread

Guess what his opinion on TLOU2 is? Isn't the timing a bit too perfect? He spent the weekend bashing the game on stream for its story (he praised the graphics and animations).

Reviewers know each other and some are even friends. They chose to live and I'm not sure we can blame them for it.

TL;DR: In the end of the original TLOU, Joel was wrong. If you think he was right, we'll make you suffer for 25 hours and you'll pay for it.

That's all entirely beside the point of the game, man. Joel didn't die because he rescued Ellie and prevented the Fireflies from making a vaccine. Joel died because he murdered a bunch of people in his way. Those people had lives, people who cared for them. One of them (several, in fact) wanted revenge and they got it.

And now Ellie wants revenge on them, and she gets it, for the most part. Until she figures out everything else in her life is gone because of her need for revenge.

Future days, man... You gotta look ahead, not back.

 

[Woggleman]

It has so many plot holes and everyone in there is so out of character, it felt like a whiny kid destroying a sand castle "I've made it and I can destroy it if I want!"

I think Ellie is a natural progression of somebody who grew up in this world. If you are soft you die.

Joel and Tommy have been living in as safe a community as possible and have mellowed with age so it is easy to see how they would let their guard down

If you go through Joel's house it is clear this is not the same man we saw in the first game.

 

[Faithless83]

Abby's entire circle of friends and supporters were killed though, Ellie killed 4, Tommy killed 1 and the Seraphites killed 1. Abby is literally left with one person she saved and was put in a similar situation as Joel was in a shorter time frame with Ellie. For Abby to be stripped of everything she had is a worse fate than dying.

Ellie could have killed Abby right at the end (Which I think she shouldn't but it should have been written better.) but what's it going to do? Bring Joel back? Ellie had the chance for a new start and threw it away for the obsession of Abby and returned to nothing in the process.

Also at the end of the game Ellie is worse than Joel. She killed for satisfaction, Joel killed for survival. She never even got what she wanted.

See? It destroys everything for the sake of doing so. It adds nothing, there is no silver lining. It's like the shiniest gift box filled with shit.

 

[Woggleman]

See? It destroys everything for the sake of doing so. It adds nothing, there is no silver lining. It's like the shiniest gift box filled with shit.

This series never was some feel good Disney movie. I get the feeling that some people just wanted the whole game to be a big summer vacation with Joel and Ellie and they all happily live ever after.

 

[Madflavor]

Is TLoU2 the video game equivalent of the 2004 movie Crash? A film that was so heavy handed in it's attempt to come off deep and profound.

 

[psorcerer]

That's all entirely beside the point of the game, man. Joel didn't die because he rescued Ellie and prevented the Fireflies from making a vaccine. Joel died because he murdered a bunch of people in his way. Those people had lives, people who cared for them. One of them (several, in fact) wanted revenge and they got it.

And now Ellie wants revenge on them, and she gets it, for the most part. Until she figures out everything else in her life is gone because of her need for revenge.

Future days, man... You gotta look ahead, not back.

I have one thing to say: Red Dead Redemption.

 

[bender]

The Lift Off scene with Joel and Ellie was wonderful. Their relationship is what made the original great. It also highlights my problem with the sequel. I felt no empathy for any of the characters in the game, save for Ellie. That was all due to the original game and even at that, older Ellie wore a little thin. I get the parallels and themes Druckmann was going for but it just doesn't work because I wasn't invested in the cast of characters. The game tries to pull a lot of the emotionally manipulative tricks from the original, but at this point they've become old hat and I found myself not caring who died. The amount of times that Abby an Ellie left one another alive to show the follies of revenge also falls a little flat when the game has you murdering so many non-infected in such brutally gruesome detail. The game has a poorly paced narrative, mostly forgettable cast of characters, antiquated mechanics and borrows a bit too much of the bombast from Uncharted. It's wholly unsatisfying. I didn't really want a sequel to the original and this game is exactly why.

 

[Faithless83]

That's all entirely beside the point of the game, man. Joel didn't die because he rescued Ellie and prevented the Fireflies from making a vaccine. Joel died because he murdered a bunch of people in his way. Those people had lives, people who cared for them. One of them (several, in fact) wanted revenge and they got it.

And now Ellie wants revenge on them, and she gets it, for the most part. Until she figures out everything else in her life is gone because of her need for revenge.

Future days, man... You gotta look ahead, not back.

How many stupid and nonsensical revenge stories could have happened in that world? It doesn't make you think, it's there to take things from you. That's it.

It feels like a wasted oportunity to tell a good story.

 

[Strategize]

The game literally fucking ends with Ellie forgiving Joel, and you're telling me the game demonizes him?

He's demonized in Abby's perspective, and her revenge doesn't help her feel any better. Hell in the end Abby basically becomes the "Joel" to Lev.

 

[Roni]

I have one thing to say: Red Dead Redemption.

True, but I'm not quite sure what your point is in pointing out another game has a similar plot...

How many stupid and nonsensical revenge stories could have happened in that world? It doesn't make you think, it's there to take things from you. That's it.

It feels like a wasted oportunity to tell a good story.

In terms of protagonism, we're following Ellie, so we needed to see how she learned this lesson.

The team @ Naughty Dog simply took extra steps (and did a splendid job, IMO) of matching the player's emotions with Ellie's. People are upset because Joel is killed off before doing anything in the game. Ellie is upset because she loved Joel. In the end, both want revenge...

Also, sometimes life takes things from you without necessarily giving you anything back, they're just portraying this in the game.

 

[J____Av]

To stroke Druckmans massive ego. I thought it was better than i thought it would be after the leaks, but still...

 

[toker818]

Video games, movies, TV shows are all stupid with idiotic plots and ameuter writing. People should go outside and do something productive with their lifes.

 

[Faithless83]

This series never was some feel good Disney movie. I get the feeling that some people just wanted the whole game to be a big summer vacation with Joel and Ellie and they all happily live ever after.

That's obviously not the point. The first one was bleak, this one is there to take things. I believe a lot of us saw Joel dying miles away. It was a poorly contructed narrative that added nothing. Like the new Star Wars trilogy.

 

[psorcerer]

True, but I'm not quite sure what your point is in pointing out another game has a similar plot...

It's not similar, it's better in every way. And better handled.
Here's the writing is so bad that it's not even funny anymore.
TLOU2 starts as a movie about iniquity, not revenge, and goes on to be about revenge. Which is so less nuanced and dull.

 

[Roni]

It's not similar, it's better in every way. And better handled.
Here's the writing is so bad that it's not even funny anymore.
TLOU2 starts as a movie about iniquity, not revenge, and goes on to be about revenge. Which is so less nuanced and dull.

If you like RDR more, good for you man. But the writing in TLOU2 is not bad, you're just upset at it. Give it time... The game just worked too well for you. That opening was supposed to make you feel like that. In fact, it was designed to.

 

[psorcerer]

If you like RDR more, good for you man. But the writing in TLOU2 is not bad, you're just upset at it. Give it time... The game just worked too well for you. That opening was supposed to make you feel like that. In fact, it was designed to.

Again, it doesn't matter. The problem with TLOU2 is that it devalues TLOU into a stupid "greater good" idea and by itself has nothing to say apart from a "revenge is bad" banality.

 

[Faithless83]

The Lift Off scene with Joel and Ellie was wonderful. Their relationship is what made the original great. It also highlights my problem with the sequel. I felt no empathy for any of the characters in the game, save for Ellie. That was all due to the original game and even at that, older Ellie wore a little thin. I get the parallels and themes Druckmann was going for but it just doesn't work because I wasn't invested in the cast of characters. The game tries to pull a lot of the emotionally manipulative tricks from the original, but at this point they've become old hat and I found myself not caring who died. The amount of times that Abby an Ellie left one another alive to show the follies of revenge also falls a little flat when the game has you murdering so many non-infected in such brutally gruesome detail. The game has a poorly paced and narrative, mostly forgettable cast of characters, antiquated mechanics and borrows a bit too much of the bombast from Uncharted. It's wholly unsatisfying. I didn't really want a sequel to the original and this game is exactly why.

Couldn't said it better. I thought the would strike gold with the sequel, I was wrong.

 

[Roni]

Again, it doesn't matter. The problem with TLOU2 is that it devalues TLOU into a stupid "greater good" idea and by itself has nothing to say apart from a "revenge is bad" banality.

The best stories often come from the simplest ideas, TLOU was about a father and daughter bond. Nothing spectacular there either. Just very well executed, just like TLOU2 executes the whole 'revenge is bad' idea.

 

[psorcerer]

The Lift Off scene with Joel and Ellie was wonderful. Their relationship is what made the original great. It also highlights my problem with the sequel. I felt no empathy for any of the characters in the game, save for Ellie. That was all due to the original game and even at that, older Ellie wore a little thin. I get the parallels and themes Druckmann was going for but it just doesn't work because I wasn't invested in the cast of characters. The game tries to pull a lot of the emotionally manipulative tricks from the original, but at this point they've become old hat and I found myself not caring who died. The amount of times that Abby an Ellie left one another alive to show the follies of revenge also falls a little flat when the game has you murdering so many non-infected in such brutally gruesome detail. The game has a poorly paced narrative, mostly forgettable cast of characters, antiquated mechanics and borrows a bit too much of the bombast from Uncharted. It's wholly unsatisfying. I didn't really want a sequel to the original and this game is exactly why.

Pretty much.
I think that direction was actually pretty amazing and I do believe in the emotions of the characters.
That's why the poor writing and a lack of empathy hits so bad.

 

[Faithless83]

True, but I'm not quite sure what your point is in pointing out another game has a similar plot...



In terms of protagonism, we're following Ellie, so we needed to see how she learned this lesson.

The team @ Naughty Dog simply took extra steps (and did a splendid job, IMO) of matching the player's emotions with Ellie's. People are upset because Joel is killed off before doing anything in the game. Ellie is upset because she loved Joel. In the end, both want revenge...

Also, sometimes life takes things from you without necessarily giving you anything back, they're just portraying this in the game.

I've seen people in streams that didn't want to play it anymore. To make you want to stop playing the game is not "a splendid job". It's like making a movie that makes people want to get up and leave the theater. Nothing in there, besides the revenge, makes the player keep on going. Even that is taken away from you. There is no reward in there.

 

[Gamernyc78]

What's the point? Everything doesn't have to be this deep thought provoking story of ambiguity and philosophy. Revenge, love, loss are all very real and I fucking loved seeing her facial animations as she killed certain ppl. She was fucking angry for good reason and thy conveyed it better than any game I've seen besides Kratos and God of war.

 

[Roni]

I've seen people in streams that didn't want to play it anymore. To make you want to stop playing the game is not "a splendid job". It's like making a movie that makes people want to get up and leave the theater. Nothing in there, besides the revenge, makes the player keep on going. Even that is taken away from you. There is no reward in there.

Yeah, disappointment can be a bitch. That's a brittle spirit, as Dave Chapelle would put it.

Can you imagine if Ellie felt that way? Instead of going on her quest for revenge she just sat home depressed, and never even went on patrols anymore.

Everyone deals with disappointment differently. Thing is, disappointment is coming in life. It's not a matter of IF, just of WHEN. So how you deal with it is important, Ellie is also 18 in the game, and as Joel himself puts it, she needs to stop letting people rile her up. It's a weakness and, in this game, we saw her work through that weakness and transcend it.

It took this entire game for Ellie to truly understand what Joel meant when he said: "things happen, we move on." in the first game.

 

[Madflavor]

If you like RDR more, good for you man. But the writing in TLOU2 is not bad, you're just upset at it. Give it time... The game just worked too well for you. That opening was supposed to make you feel like that. In fact, it was designed to.

You know I heard a lot of TLJ defenders 2 years ago say the same thing. That over time people will come to appreciate it. 2.5 years later it's still just as divisive.

The best stories often come from the simplest ideas

Great stories can come from simple ideas, but "the best" come from the simplest? Cause there are quite a few books and films out there I can point out that do no have simple plots, that TLoU2 or even TLoU1 can't even begin to hold a candle to.

TLOU was about a father and daughter bond. Nothing spectacular there either. Just very well executed, just like TLOU2 executes the whole 'revenge is bad' idea.

The problem comes from it's heavy handed approach and the way the plot is structured and paced. Obviously you didn't have issue with it, but a lot of people did, and I don't think that's a criticism that should be dismissed. TLoU had a pretty controversial ending. RDR1 ends with the protagonist not getting his happy ending, getting shot to pieces, and his son following in his bloody footsteps. Both games were widely beloved and praised. Not so much for TLoU2, which unfortunately means it's simple premise, in execution, wasn't as effective. It takes real talent as a writer, to write something daring and controversial, and have the vast majority like or love your work.

 

[Faithless83]

What's the point? Everything doesn't have to be this deep thought provoking story of ambiguity and philosophy. Revenge, love, loss are all very real and I fucking loved seeing her facial animations as she killed certain ppl. She was fucking angry for good reason and thy conveyed it better than any game I've seen besides Kratos and God if war.

I agree, but we can't put this one in "Doom category" just because they "nailed the face animations".
It's expected after the first game, that this one had a deep story. Neil Druckman even said "We wouldn't do it if we thought we didn't had the perfect story" and this is what he came up with?

Doom is amazing btw, but it's a diferent approach. Gameplay in TLOU was good, but nowhere near spectacular to be enough to carry it (unlike Doom).

 

[Faithless83]

Yeah, disappointment can be a bitch. That's a brittle spirit, as Dave Chapelle would put it.

Can you imagine if Ellie felt that way? Instead of going on her quest for revenge she just sat home depressed, and never even went on patrols anymore.

Everyone deals with disappointment differently. Thing is, disappointment is coming in life. It's not a matter of IF, just of WHEN. So how you deal with it is important, Ellie is also 18 in the game, and as Joel himself puts it, she needs to stop letting people rile her up. It's a weakness and, in this game, we saw her work through that weakness and transcend it.

It took this entire game for Ellie to truly understand what Joel meant when he said: "things happen, we move on." in the first game.

I believe you failed to see my point. It's not only because of what happens. It's a whole mess of poorly writen story and unlikable cast. It's not gritty in a good way. It's uninteresting altogether.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

See? It destroys everything for the sake of doing so. It adds nothing, there is no silver lining. It's like the shiniest gift box filled with shit.

No one gets what they want in life and no one knows what's around the next corner. Especially in this world they live in. It's how it be.

 

[Steve.1981]

Judging by the time I've spent with the game, the point was to tell a story 10 times worse than part 1 & constantly manipulate the audience in ridiculously contrived ways to try & make it seem like it has any kind of depth.

Seriously, the story is complete & utter garbage. It's actually mind-blowing that the same guy is in charge of this shit.

Gameplay is great fun though. Graphics are all kinds of stunning. So it's not all for nothing

 

[Madflavor]

So does the defense for the writing of this story basically boil down to:




?

 

[Roni]

You know I heard a lot of TLJ defenders 2 years ago say the same thing. That over time people will come to appreciate it. 2.5 years later it's still just as divisive.

Some real people just don't wanna see their special pretend people behave this or that way... All I can say is that I'm sorry. Characters serve the story, not the other way around.

Great stories can come from simple ideas, but "the best" come from the simplest?

Yeah, they can too. The existence of complex plots in the halls of fame don't wipe the simple ones from there.

The problem comes from it's heavy handed approach and the way the plot is structured and paced.

The structure and pace of the plot is very deliberate: Joel is randomly killed by a group of strangers out of the blue. This is there to put you into Ellie's mindset: if you were expecting to spend time with Joel (or even play as him) that is denied to the player as it is denied to Ellie.

That pretty quickly gets you hating on Abby. So you're all onboard with Ellie getting on a horse and heading for Seattle to help Tommy kill those responsible. Then, during the game's first climax, the game pulls back and says: wanna hear the other side?

You see, this huge woman who killed your beloved character was the daughter of the surgeon Joel killed. She loved her father, looked up to him, loved what he loved (collecting coins, caring for animals, etc...) and wanted to spend the rest of his life with him. But Joel went and murdered him to prevent him from saving mankind. So she has a grudge, just like Ellie has a grudge against Abby now. So, just like Ellie did coming to Seattle, she spent years preparing and looking for Joel to exact revenge.

And now, just as Joel's past caught up with him, Abby's past is catching up with her.

The plot's structure and pacing are deliberate here in order to make you understand there's two sides to every conflict. But they don't just want to tell you that, they want you to experience the both sides.