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[alife]

The thing is, no one can use this to make Joel's decision appear better.

I don't think my arguments are trying to make Joel seem more virtuous or make his decision appear better because he did indeed commit some egregious acts for the sake of survival, it's just that I didn't like how the writers decided to piggyback on the trifecta aforementioned by Balducci30. I don't remember but... was Abby ever mentioned in TLoU? Jerry Anderson's ethnic background was also changed for the sake of TLoU 2, so I feel as though Abby's character was just shoehorned into the story and the writers decided that it'd be sufficient to just let the game tell the story of two young women seeking revenge with the rigid conclusion from TLoU being the prelude to all the conflict and violence. Joel could've at least received a more conceivable demise instead of walking blindly into a hostile territory and perhaps players should've been given the choice to either spare or kill Abby at the end.

 

[GAMETA]

The point is to make the highest score in the brownie pool and make sure ideology is vomited on the player while keeping the game safe from criticism by making sure the LGBT flag is waving, so anything bad you say can be answered with "homophobe"

Bad plot? Homophobe. Liked Joel? Homophobe. Liked Asian Joel? Homophobe! Christian? Homophobe too!

Someone should tell Neil that in many countries a huge amount of gays and trans are very religious, and guess what, christians. Yes, there are many christian gays and trans out there, many of them, including catholics... so we get to learn how Dina would've burnt into flames if they entered a Christian temple instead of the synagogue, cause you know, christians hate jews and gays and burnt them during the Inquisition and the Holocausta and yet her family survived all of that plus the apocalypse, "barely"... but no no, I'm being unfair, the game is very very inclusive, but you gotta prioritize what's on the agenda, right? So it's only inclusive enough, you know, there are hashtags to be preserved, man, plus discussing how the different cultures outside California deal with the post apocalypse world would be too much, political ideology discussions can't be too broad.

 

[Arelyon]

 

[Balducci30]

Here's things you can't change.

- Doctors were going perform surgery on Ellie
- They were going to make a cure.
- Ellie believed Joel lied to her.

No matter how you feel about the story, this was established in the first game and that's the plot they were continuing going into Part II. It doesn't matter if someone believe the changes were slim or that the doctors couldn't actually make one, that's what was depicted in the first game and that's how they wrote it.

People who say this want to make Joel's decision more reasonable with nothing has changed. He didn't save Ellie because he thought the chances were slim, he did it to save Ellie's life. Saying it's an possible task would be like saying Joel fighting an army of fireflies by himself and escaping with Ellie is just as impossible, but that's how the story was written.

"They were going to make a cure" - see in the first game you could argue that wasn't actually plausible. You could project onto the character to justify his actions - doesn't matter if it's intended by the writer or not - people interpreted the ethical debate there with a lot more nuance than the sequel allows. First - Joel's first reaction was "find someone else" - and Marlene said there was no one else - you could choose to trust that or not as an audience member projecting their life experience on the game. Then Joel kills Marlene after she tells him he can "still do the right thing". Now - we learn in the sequel this is just not possible apparently because he had already killed the only guy in the world who could do the procedure anyway. Point is - some things are better left to interpretation by the audience - as a creator you want that because often the audience will put more meaning on things or interpret things in ways you didn't think of - that's the beauty of art. But with this, any unknowns from the first have become known - and the series writing seems slightly more basic than many interpreted it as.

 

[DForce]

"They were going to make a cure" - see in the first game you could argue that wasn't actually plausible. You could project onto the character to justify his actions - doesn't matter if it's intended by the writer or not - people interpreted the ethical debate there with a lot more nuance than the sequel allows. First - Joel's first reaction was "find someone else" - and Marlene said there was no one else - you could choose to trust that or not as an audience member projecting their life experience on the game. Then Joel kills Marlene after she tells him he can "still do the right thing". Now - we learn in the sequel this is just not possible apparently because he had already killed the only guy in the world who could do the procedure anyway. Point is - some things are better left to interpretation by the audience - as a creator you want that because often the audience will put more meaning on things or interpret things in ways you didn't think of - that's the beauty of art. But with this, any unknowns from the first have become known - and the series writing seems slightly more basic than many interpreted it as.

You're trying to interpret in a way that wasn't portrayed in the story.

They were set to make a cure. Period. That's what the writer intended, and no amount of reasoning will change that. It doesn't matter if it wasn't possible by some doctor, the fact is, it was possible in the writer's story.

 

[Balducci30]

You're trying to interpret in a way that wasn't portrayed in the story.

They were set to make a cure. Period. That's what the writer intended, and no amount of reasoning will change that. It doesn't matter if it wasn't possible by some doctor, the fact is, it was possible in the writer's story.

Yes I know what the writer intended now, and the game is less because of it - that is my point. Which you seem to be missing. It's not about "reasoning" it's about that I was able to come to my own conclusions before - and there was definitely room to do that. Regardless of the writers intent. In the game and in the real world - before this - you could certainly argue that the cure wouldn't have happened as a result anyway. Because there is no way anybody would know something like that 100% for sure. It's just not possible to predict. Joel obviously would have done it either way - but the ambiguities the first game left you with were certainly able to be debated - you were able to infer that it was deeper than it was - resolving them in the way that they did was just kinda basic and doesn't track with how much the game tries to ground itself in realism. Down to the infected being based off a real world fungal virus. The sequel makes it very clear that there is only one doctor who could do it, it was definitely going to result in a cure - which is frankly just unrealistic no matter how you slice it. I don't know how else to explain that - which is why it feels lazy and sort of tacked on to increase the stakes.

And let me mention this is just one problem with the story - the rest I detailed in other posts - you can really feel the writer in this in a bad way.

 

[rofif]

Here's things you can't change.

- Doctors were going perform surgery on Ellie
- They were going to make a cure.
- Ellie believed Joel lied to her.

No matter how you feel about the story, this was established in the first game and that's the plot they were continuing going into Part II. It doesn't matter if someone believe the changes were slim or that the doctors couldn't actually make one, that's what was depicted in the first game and that's how they wrote it.

People who say this want to make Joel's decision more reasonable with nothing has changed. He didn't save Ellie because he thought the chances were slim, he did it to save Ellie's life. Saying it's an possible task would be like saying Joel fighting an army of fireflies by himself and escaping with Ellie is just as impossible, but that's how the story was written.

Well that is not "for sure". It's a thing that was left to our decision.
I always believed, by the way she behaved, said "ok" and her face looked, that she knows what he did and granted Joel the love he deserves

 

[Balducci30]

Well that is not "for sure". It's a thing that was left to our decision.
I always believed, by the way she behaved, said "ok" and her face looked, that she knows what he did and granted Joel the love he deserves

yes this is another example of things being left up to the audience to interpret their own way - which made the game better and more satisfying.

 

[DForce]

Well that is not "for sure". It's a thing that was left to our decision.
I always believed, by the way she behaved, said "ok" and her face looked, that she knows what he did and granted Joel the love he deserves

She believed it but she didn't know if it was true. That's why she asked the question.

 

[DForce]

Yes I know what the writer intended now, and the game is less because of it - that is my point. Which you seem to be missing. It's not about "reasoning" it's about that I was able to come to my own conclusions before - and there was definitely room to do that. Regardless of the writers intent. In the game and in the real world - before this - you could certainly argue that the cure wouldn't have happened as a result anyway. Because there is no way anybody would know something like that 100% for sure. It's just not possible to predict. Joel obviously would have done it either way - but the ambiguities the first game left you with were certainly able to be debated - you were able to infer that it was deeper than it was - resolving them in the way that they did was just kinda basic and doesn't track with how much the game tries to ground itself in realism. Down to the infected being based off a real world fungal virus. The sequel makes it very clear that there is only one doctor who could do it, it was definitely going to result in a cure - which is frankly just unrealistic no matter how you slice it. I don't know how else to explain that - which is why it feels lazy and sort of tacked on to increase the stakes.

And let me mention this is just one problem with the story - the rest I detailed in other posts - you can really feel the writer in this in a bad way.

It's irreverent. We're not talking about real world scenarios in a video game, we're talking about the world of the last of us.

I can say that Joel getting blood in his mouth from an infected would make him turn into one, not just a single bite mark.

 

[Balducci30]

It's irreverent. We're not talking about real world scenarios in a video game, we're talking about the world of the last of us.

I can say that Joel getting blood in his mouth from an infected would make him turn into one, not just a single bite mark.

yes but you see the difference in level of suspension of disbelief between the two I'm sure.

 

[rofif]

She believed it but she didn't know if it was true. That's why she asked the question.

He took her from there in her hospital clothes. I never believed she is this stupid not to suspect he killed all of them

 

[DForce]

He took her from there in her hospital clothes. I never believed she is this stupid not to suspect he killed all of them

She didn't know what happened because she was unconscious when she got there.

 

[psorcerer]

People using this, "It was not guaranteed" excuse doesn't work because in the story, it WAS guaranteed.

It doesn't matter again.
The genius of the first story was that it wasn't guarantied, it's realistic.
The stupidness of the second story is that suddenly it was guaranteed that defys any logic and science.
And then you realize that the first story wasn't that good, because the author was stupid.

They weren't similar. It was something he has never seen before.

That's an explanation from TLOU2. It wasn't there in TLOU.

Here's things you can't change.

- Doctors were going perform surgery on Ellie
- They were going to make a cure.
- Ellie believed Joel lied to her.

These things were not known in TLOU.
If they were TLOU story would get average scores and not a genius-level praise.

 

[DForce]

It doesn't matter again.
The genius of the first story was that it wasn't guarantied, it's realistic.

You can't change the story of the first game. They said they were going to make a cure, nothing you guys say will change that.

 

[psorcerer]

We're not talking about real world scenarios in a video game, we're talking about the world of the last of us.

I think you deliberately ignore what multiple people say to you in this thread.
Again: TLOU2 "explanations" on what was "correct" and "true" in TLOU devalue TLOU story.
Can you understand that??

 

[psorcerer]

You can't change the story of the first game. They said they were going to make a cure, nothing you guys say will change that.

There is no way in hell the first game would get the praise it got if it was known that "there was 100% chance to make a vaccine". What's so hard about it?

 

[DForce]

I think you deliberately ignore what multiple people say to you in this thread.
Again: TLOU2 "explanations" on what was "correct" and "true" in TLOU devalue TLOU story.
Can you understand that??

I'm ignoring theories people create that has nothing to do with the actual story. I'm not going to waste my time debating it

There is no way in hell the first game would get the praise it got if it was known that "there was 100% chance to make a vaccine". What' so hard about it?

It was. That's what made people question his decision.

You guys just need to stop. lol

 

[psorcerer]

It was. That's what made people question his decision.

Stupid people, you mean?

You need to understand. Everybody rationalizes their actions.
Even serial killers think of their killings as "good" acts, because of some rational reason like "clean the humanity" etc.
If the first game was delibirate on "there was only one cure" it devalues Joel reasoning to more evil than that of any serial killer.

 

[MayauMiao]

Nier Automata had a revenge story too, and it did it beautifully.

 

[Arun1910]

I perceived the story to show that nothing is black and white. Everyone is a survivor.

We were in Joels shoes the first game and whether we agreed with what he did, you understood why he did what he did. He protects his own. He lost 1 daughter, he didn't want to lose another. Selfish,

In TLoU2 you realise that Joel ruined the life(lives) of families and we get to see the consequence, Abby. Abby wanting revenge was warranted, you come to terms with the fact that Joel's selfish decision backfired.

You then have a stalemate of "You killed my dad I'll kill you" between Ellie and Abby.

The time spent with Abby, I didn't like at first, I hated her for obvious reasons but you are shown that she isn't just a typical Villain. Her hate for Joel is warranted for what Joel did to her Father and you end up sympathising with her. If I was in Abby's shoes, I'd want the same revenge against Ellie, just like if I was Ellie, I would want the same revenge against Abby. I think this is one of the most important aspects of the game. It makes you question morality.

What made the time with Abby even better, in my opinion, was seeing how Ellie's camp were still fucking up her life. Tommy killed one of her friends and Ellie ended up killing a few more. Ellie created a way higher body count to fuel Abby's hate. Whilst all this was happening, Abby was trying to HELP people, the entire time she was just trying to help these 2 kids.

But then everything comes full circle and you're reminded that actions have consequences. Where Joel's death was the consequence of him murdering all those fireflies, Abby's consequence of killing Joel was Ellie wanting revenge.

As for the ending? I thought it was fine. Ellie was shown to clearly have PTSD, she left her cosy life because she had to face her issues still. As for sparing Abby, after all Ellie had been through and Abby not really wanting to fight anymore, I think Ellie finally came to terms (same as Abby) with letting all the pain go instead of consuming her.

tl:dr: Nothing is black and white. Everyone is just trying to survive. Game makes you question morality and see different viewpoints. Actions have consequences.

 

[DForce]

Stupid people, you mean?

You need to understand. Everybody rationalizes their actions.
Even serial killers think of their killings as "good" acts, because of some rational reason like "clean the humanity" etc.
If the first game was delibirate on "there was only one cure" it devalues Joel reasoning to more evil than that of any serial killer.

That's the point of the ending. It was left for us to question if Joel made the right decision or not.


You're making no sense at all. lol.

 

[psorcerer]

It was left for us to question if Joel made the right decision or not.

There is no "right decision" in life. The existence of a "right decision" makes any story stupid.
If you liked the first game while knowing that Joel 100% prevented the cure. I pity you.
Because that would be one of the stupid banal scripts ever.

 

[luffie]

This will be a long read, please bear with me.

I'm posting this as a fan of the original game.

After seeing the reactions on streams I was wondering: "why would you go such a length to piss off your audience like that?"

By the end of the original TLOU the writer let the audience judge if Joel was right or wrong. The problem is, there was only one right answer. Even though there was no garantee that it would've actually work, that a vaccine could have been made; the right answer was: "Joel is the bad guy that doomed the entire human race."

The revenge is actually on you, the game was to make you suffer for not choosing the right answer, for not agreeing with the writer.

The guilt trip starts early, with Joel confessing to Tommy what happened. Since Tommy sides with Joel, he is a bad guy too. The game goes on with "Tommy was a torturer, him and Joel did a lot of nasty stuff". Up until the end, it tries to paint Tommy as a bully, pushing Ellie to lose Dina.

If you are on Joel's side, it's going to be a painfull and nasty journey. Then, you play for hours as the one that caused all the suffering, she also spares your life time and time again during the game.

The revenge, the only reason that kept the player (and Ellie) on going is denied at the last second. You won't have it your way.

But how to make people fall for it and actually buy the game? Make the game so woke, that no one dares to question the plot holes and borderline insane characters decisions. Who in their right minds would have said "this game is not a 10/10" in this day and age? Imagine the backlash this person would suffer? No need to imagine, the SJW are hard at work as I'm posting this.

Update: https://www.neogaf.com/threads/angry-joe-being-accused-of-sexual-harassment.1550079/unread

Guess what his opinion on TLOU2 is? Isn't the timing a bit too perfect? He spent the weekend bashing the game on stream for its story (he praised the graphics and animations).

Reviewers know each other and some are even friends. They chose to live and I'm not sure we can blame them for it.

TL;DR: In the end of the original TLOU, Joel was wrong. If you think he was right, we'll make you suffer for 25 hours and you'll pay for it.

The point is to make a game so woke, that is you don't like it, you must be dumb enough to miss all the nuance and super deep philosophical wisdom behind it.

They could kill Joel of whatsoever to drive the plot forward it doesn't matter, what makes it so bad is that they build up all this relationship of Joel and Ellie only give it a 180 degree spin so as to SHOCK you, to make it oh so divisive that everyone calls it art. It's bullshit.

Every good game, whether story or events or mechanics, has to have a payoff. There is no payoff in TLOU2, because Ellie went 99 miles to do what she set out to do, and turned back when her goal is 1 meter in front of her. She did it because she remembers Joel, which is the one thing that Joel will never ever do if the victim is Ellie, the whole story makes sure of that. But the whole story needs to be turned upside down just to shock you.

They try to let you play as Abby (which I don't mind), in order to get you to empathize, but the execution is just bad. And even if you do empathize with Abby, remember that Ellie doesn't see the perspective that you see, she just can't. All she saw was her father figure gets brutally murdered in front of her, and when she needs to compromise and gave up the revenge because they need to save Dina's pregnancy, Jesse got bloody murdered in an instant by the very same person she wanted revenge so badly. An instant, no negotiation, nothing. At this point, no rationale person can go back, shake hands, make peace. But Ellie stops killing Abby anyway, so that you are shocked by this awesome writing.

***************************

For those who thinks Joel is wrong, he is not. The creation of the vaccine is a probability, the death of Ellie is certain, and nobody gets a say in killing somebody's daughter for the supposedly virtue of saving the world. Ellie didn't consent, and neither did Joel. All Joel did was rushing in and the doctors trying their best to stop Joel at all cost, because the doctors believe they are the saviour of humanity. They decide that what they did was justified, because they are going to save humanity, Joel doesn't get a say, a discussion, or time to think, Joel had to kill them in order to save Ellie, because the doctors gave no choice.
Abby's case is different, Abby knew and consented to it, but that's all hypothetical too, because her father didn't exactly agree to it either.
Like Tommy and Joel said it themselves, "shit Joel, that is horrible, but if I were you, I will do the same"

Again, the game design is fantastic, but the general plot is trashy. And people loves TLOU1 mainly because of the plot.

 

[triplestation]

to show how dark humanity is and how much it is worth to me and you and the world because you are the only one who can kill a good friend who is not a friend or a friend of your friend and your enemy which is not the way you are in a horny world full of broccoli zombies

 

[sobaka770]

Yes I know what the writer intended now, and the game is less because of it - that is my point. Which you seem to be missing. It's not about "reasoning" it's about that I was able to come to my own conclusions before - and there was definitely room to do that. Regardless of the writers intent. In the game and in the real world - before this - you could certainly argue that the cure wouldn't have happened as a result anyway. Because there is no way anybody would know something like that 100% for sure. It's just not possible to predict. Joel obviously would have done it either way - but the ambiguities the first game left you with were certainly able to be debated - you were able to infer that it was deeper than it was - resolving them in the way that they did was just kinda basic and doesn't track with how much the game tries to ground itself in realism. Down to the infected being based off a real world fungal virus. The sequel makes it very clear that there is only one doctor who could do it, it was definitely going to result in a cure - which is frankly just unrealistic no matter how you slice it. I don't know how else to explain that - which is why it feels lazy and sort of tacked on to increase the stakes.

And let me mention this is just one problem with the story - the rest I detailed in other posts - you can really feel the writer in this in a bad way.

I do not understand the obsession with the whole "probability of making a cure". It was irrelevant to the plot of TLOU and to Joel. What if it was a 99% certainty? What if it was 5%? Joel doesn't operate on these assumptions, his arc is that he lost a daughter, his character for 20+ years is scarred and driven by that loss (hence the watch) and at the end he is not able to cope with the loss of a child who becomes like a second daughter to him over the course of the story. So he'd rather damn the world than let her die. The ambiguity only comes from the fact that over 15 hours with Joel you are starting to sympathise with his loss and can think that his decision is justified. If you didn't spend all this time with Joel, if you were to play as a doctor making their way to the hospital and suddenly some guy shoots up all the staff because the life of a child is not worth a chance of saving the whole world, you might think very differently.

Not only did Joel save Ellie for selfish personal reasons, but he also robbed her of any agency in that decision. It's clear that if it was a conflicted choice the most rational way would be to let her decide whatever the chance for a cure was but Joel just killed everyone because his arc is about his character not some calculation. He doesn't need to find justifications of probability of curing, he would do it anyway at any rate. By the way this concludes the arc of Joel's character and therefore he doesn't have any purpose for part 2, so his death is totally warranted as a narrative device as TLOU is more about Ellie's journey overall and didn't have a significant personal arc in Part 1, only growth and hardening.

Also it didn't bother anyone that the whole plot of TLOU is basically to get Ellie to Fireflies to make the cure to save the world overall from the get-go. You just experience it through the eyes of one person who is so damaged that he is unable to make that call and there lies the beauty of TLOU part 1.

In TLOU2 it's the same thing: characters act from their perspective morally righteously and the player gets to experience that. The point of the story (one of) is that everyone is blinded by this righteousness and actions made by characters make sense to them but only cause pain and suffering to the world and to themselves in the end. The moral dilemma is would you let go of hatred and revenge the moment when you realise that it doesn't bring you closure, only scars and trauma to you and to everyone around you, that people don't act even at their lowest without reason and we are all flawed but capable of goodness and think to strive for what is right in our own sometimes misguided way. Obviously in context of the world of TLOU it's much harsher than real life but the analogy is apt. That is the beauty of part 2.

And let's be clear, if you think TLOU2 is badly written then I wonder how you felt about TLOU ripping off 80% of the Road with sprinkles of Walking Dead and some genre tropes. TLOU1 has enough plot holes and contrivances to make the story work that can be nitpicked to death if one so desires to make a list. Nitpicking plot holes is the lowest form of criticism (cinemasins?) and only shows the emotional disconnect that people experience in TLOU2 which is much darker thank Part 1 where only side characters die and unlike the Road the main characters make it out peachy. So let's just admit that TLOU2 burst a lot of headcanon about them getting a happy life in Jackson until Joel's on his deathbed and confesses and then Ellie forgives him and that's fine. Yeah, I said it, people hate Part 2 cause it has real emotional consequences which hurt while part 1 was comparatively a fun romp with some shock value where main characters made it out alive which was a happy ending.

I swear if ESB were to be released today it would be so divisive and review bombed as hell for Yoda being SJW (he's so small, green and talks like an immigrant but so strongest with Force - I can't believe it), Luke getting shafted by Leia (slut), C3PO being even more effeminate (trans droid?) combined with huge plot holes of Luke 3-day training on Dagobah, deux-ex-machina Force visions which we never heard of before etc etc. Especially if abriged version of script leaked: totally ruined the Rebellion, nobody acts heroic much everyone just runs, it's too dark, Luke gets trained by a midget, Vader is the father (lol who wrote this shit?) and Han dies?

 

[rofif]

I perceived the story to show that nothing is black and white. Everyone is a survivor.

We were in Joels shoes the first game and whether we agreed with what he did, you understood why he did what he did. He protects his own. He lost 1 daughter, he didn't want to lose another. Selfish,

In TLoU2 you realise that Joel ruined the life(lives) of families and we get to see the consequence, Abby. Abby wanting revenge was warranted, you come to terms with the fact that Joel's selfish decision backfired.

You then have a stalemate of "You killed my dad I'll kill you" between Ellie and Abby.

The time spent with Abby, I didn't like at first, I hated her for obvious reasons but you are shown that she isn't just a typical Villain. Her hate for Joel is warranted for what Joel did to her Father and you end up sympathising with her. If I was in Abby's shoes, I'd want the same revenge against Ellie, just like if I was Ellie, I would want the same revenge against Abby. I think this is one of the most important aspects of the game. It makes you question morality.

What made the time with Abby even better, in my opinion, was seeing how Ellie's camp were still fucking up her life. Tommy killed one of her friends and Ellie ended up killing a few more. Ellie created a way higher body count to fuel Abby's hate. Whilst all this was happening, Abby was trying to HELP people, the entire time she was just trying to help these 2 kids.

But then everything comes full circle and you're reminded that actions have consequences. Where Joel's death was the consequence of him murdering all those fireflies, Abby's consequence of killing Joel was Ellie wanting revenge.

As for the ending? I thought it was fine. Ellie was shown to clearly have PTSD, she left her cosy life because she had to face her issues still. As for sparing Abby, after all Ellie had been through and Abby not really wanting to fight anymore, I think Ellie finally came to terms (same as Abby) with letting all the pain go instead of consuming her.

tl:dr: Nothing is black and white. Everyone is just trying to survive. Game makes you question morality and see different viewpoints. Actions have consequences.

Everyone is a survivor but some have friendly groups and other serve in crazy army. It's not the same.
It's beyond surviving from zombies at this point

 

[TheSadRanger]

 

[Arun1910]

Everyone is a survivor but some have friendly groups and other serve in crazy army. It's not the same.
It's beyond surviving from zombies at this point

How they survive is not the same, sure. But my post was talking about Ellie and Abby and what we see of their journey. Abby was wronged as a child which fueled her whole revenge plot.

 

[pawel86ck]

TLOU 1-2 together is a story, where people can experience wide range of emotions, and that's the point.

The problem is, people are different and share different opinions, so not everyone can aprreciate an emotional rollercoaster. If you like fairy tale stories and predictable events you will most likely hate the story in TLOU2. If you however want to experience wide range of emotions you will love the story in part2 and you most likely rate the game 10/10.

Spoiler

Fist TLOU was about building connection with the main characters, and people who are playing TLOU1 since 2013 really loved characters from the game. TLOU2 shows how it's like to lost someone you care about with emotional impact never realized before in any game or even movie, so people who loved characters in the first game just cant accept it, because now they experience emotion of anger almost like in real life (and when you lose someone you care about you will experience anger, that's why so many people hate the story in PART2). It's however an excellent revenge story in PART2 and there are still many twists making you wonder what will happen next. Of course now Ellie has a new companion. Remember TLOU1 The Left Behind DLC? There's strong connection to this DLC in part2, because Ellie lost her friend Riley there and now she has another girlfriend and dont want to lose someone he care about again. There are also several moments in the game, that makes you cry... for example Ellie playing on the guitar certain song. Game is a true masterpiece, you will either love it or hate it, and the thing is, without playing the game for yourself you will not know what to think about it. Maybe you will love this game like some people and maybe not so much, but I have noticed people who really played the game and are disappointed give scores from the range of 6-8/10 and only people who havent played part2 at all will rate it 0/10 (these people are doing that because of anger).

 

[rofif]

How they survive is not the same, sure. But my post was talking about Ellie and Abby and what we see of their journey. Abby was wronged as a child which fueled her whole revenge plot.

She was wronged as a late teen. She should understand that other fathers love their children just as much as her father loved her. I understand she might still CHOOSE to seek revenge but at least show tiniest bit of understanding and remorse. Especially after she learns of Ellie and who she was for him, why he did that. And after he saves her from the horde. Instead of ending it quick, she goes on torturing. Her charcter is flawed. I am still playing her part of the game and it is all kinda growing on me but I find her quest very selfish and it's hard to take any touching moments seriously as her face looks constantly in pain and she is a orangutan

 

[Balducci30]

I do not understand the obsession with the whole "probability of making a cure". It was irrelevant to the plot of TLOU and to Joel. What if it was a 99% certainty? What if it was 5%? Joel doesn't operate on these assumptions, his arc is that he lost a daughter, his character for 20+ years is scarred and driven by that loss (hence the watch) and at the end he is not able to cope with the loss of a child who becomes like a second daughter to him over the course of the story. So he'd rather damn the world than let her die. The ambiguity only comes from the fact that over 15 hours with Joel you are starting to sympathise with his loss and can think that his decision is justified. If you didn't spend all this time with Joel, if you were to play as a doctor making their way to the hospital and suddenly some guy shoots up all the staff because the life of a child is not worth a chance of saving the whole world, you might think very differently.

Not only did Joel save Ellie for selfish personal reasons, but he also robbed her of any agency in that decision. It's clear that if it was a conflicted choice the most rational way would be to let her decide whatever the chance for a cure was but Joel just killed everyone because his arc is about his character not some calculation. He doesn't need to find justifications of probability of curing, he would do it anyway at any rate. T

Also it didn't bother anyone that the whole plot of TLOU is basically to get Ellie to Fireflies to make the cure to save the world overall from the get-go. You just experience it through the eyes of one person who is so damaged that he is unable to make that call and there lies the beauty of TLOU part 1.

In TLOU2 it's the same thing: characters act from their perspective morally righteously and the player gets to experience that. The point of the story (one of) is that everyone is blinded by this righteousness and actions made by characters make sense to them but only cause pain and suffering to the world and to themselves in the end. The moral dilemma is would you let go of hatred and revenge the moment when you realise that it doesn't bring you closure, only scars and trauma to you and to everyone around you, that people don't act even at their lowest without reason and we are all flawed but capable of goodness and think to strive for what is right in our own sometimes misguided way. Obviously in context of the world of TLOU it's much harsher than real life but the analogy is apt. That is the beauty of part 2.

And let's be clear, if you think TLOU2 is badly written then I wonder how you felt about TLOU ripping off 80% of the Road with sprinkles of Walking Dead and some genre tropes. TLOU1 has enough plot holes and contrivances to make the story work that can be nitpicked to death if one so desires to make a list. Nitpicking plot holes is the lowest form of criticism (cinemasins?) and only shows the emotional disconnect that people experience in TLOU2 which is much darker thank Part 1 where only side characters die and unlike the Road the main characters make it out peachy. So let's just admit that TLOU2 burst a lot of headcanon about them getting a happy life in Jackson until he's on his deathbed and confesses and then Ellie forgives him and that's fine.

I swear if ESB were to be released today it would be so divisive and review bombed as hell for Yoda being SJW (he's so small, green and talks like an immigrant but so strongest with Force - I can't believe it), Luke getting shafted by Leia (slut), C3PO being even more effeminate (trans droid?) combined with huge plot holes of Luke 3-day training on Dagobah, deux-ex-machina Force visions which we never heard of before etc etc.

I don’t give a shit about sjw bullshit - I legitimately couldn’t care less. Don’t make assumptions. You’re barking up the wrong tree with all that nonsense. I’m bisexual myself and I have been to plenty of protests lately I’m definitely not on an anti SJW kick.

And yes last of us 1 ripped off the road in many ways, of course it’s a story that has been done. It’s a very simple story. That was the beauty of it and the fact that it was minimal enough exposition that you were able to fill in the gaps with your own “head cannon” was part of what made it a great videogame. Because you were interacting with the experience.

And I haven’t mentioned plot holes, I’ve mentioned things that are just lazy, convenient writing. You wanna believe I’m somehow ignorant of the story last of us 2 was telling, I understand it perfectly well - I think it was executed poorly. That’s the problem. The first one executed a simple story well. This one was ambitious and I give them props for trying - obviously Abby’s half is meant to mirror Joel’s redemption arc from the first game. But there are structural problems all over the place - if the game was truly successful at it’s goal - the basic narrative of which is “hate brings no satisfaction, tribalism is bad and it all depends on how you view a situation, from who’s perspective changes things” I wouldn’t have wanted to kill Abby still at the end. The structure is part of the problem with this - they should have had you play much longer as Abby and get to know her before she kills Joel - So you can empathize with her before the act. I’ve stated numerous times in this thread the main issue of the story is that you can feel and see the writing too much, it’s heavy handed, you get the sense that the writers think you’re too stupid to see what they’re doing, and you end up so far ahead of the characters in the game. Like you get the message immediately, however the game is 30 hours.

Also what “agency” are you talking about with Ellie? The fireflies didn’t tell her she was going to die either. She didn’t make that choice. She had no agency either way. You don’t need to explain the plot to me I understood it fine. And I understood the intentions of the writing fine - Read the rest of my posts if you’re really taking that much of an issue with what I’m saying.

 

[Arun1910]

She was wronged as a late teen. She should understand that other fathers love their children just as much as her father loved her. I understand she might still CHOOSE to seek revenge but at least show tiniest bit of understanding and remorse. Especially after she learns of Ellie and who she was for him, why he did that. And after he saves her from the horde. Instead of ending it quick, she goes on torturing. Her charcter is flawed. I am still playing her part of the game and it is all kinda growing on me but I find her quest very selfish and it's hard to take any touching moments seriously as her face looks constantly in pain and she is a orangutan

I understand she might still CHOOSE to seek revenge but at least show tiniest bit of understanding and remorse.

I don't want to spoil the game more than I did before but keep playing and you will see that more fuel is added to the fire.

Also I don't think it's flawed to go after your Fathers killer at all. Especially after who her Father was. Just keep playing, it will make sense.

 

[sobaka770]

I don’t give a shit about sjw bullshit - I legitimately couldn’t care less. Don’t make assumptions. You’re barking up the wrong tree with all that nonsense. I’m bisexual myself and I have been to plenty of protests lately I’m definitely not on an anti SJW kick.

And yes last of us 1 ripped off the road in many ways, of course it’s a story that has been done. It’s a very simple story. That was the beauty of it and the fact that it was minimal enough exposition that you were able to fill in the gaps with your own “head cannon” was part of what made it a great videogame. Because you were interacting with the experience.

And I haven’t mentioned plot holes, I’ve mentioned things that are just lazy, convenient writing. You wanna believe I’m somehow ignorant of the story last of us 2 was telling, I understand it perfectly well - I think it was executed poorly. That’s the problem. The first one executed a simple story well. This one was ambitious and I give them props for trying - obviously Abby’s half is meant to mirror Joel’s redemption arc from the first game. But there are structural problems all over the place - if the game was truly successful at it’s goal - the basic narrative of which is “hate brings no satisfaction, tribalism is bad and it all depends on how you view a situation, from who’s perspective changes things” I wouldn’t have wanted to kill Abby still at the end. The structure is part of the problem with this - they should have had you play much longer as Abby and get to know her before she kills Joel - So you can empathize with her before the act. I’ve stated numerous times in this thread the main issue of the story is that you can feel and see the writing too much, it’s heavy handed, you get the sense that the writers think you’re too stupid to see what they’re doing, and you end up so far ahead of the characters in the game. Like you get the message immediately, however the game is 30 hours.

Also what “agency” are you talking about with Ellie? The fireflies didn’t tell her she was going to die either. She didn’t make that choice. She had no agency either way. You don’t need to explain the plot to me I understood it fine. And I understood the intentions of the writing fine - Read the rest of my posts if you’re really taking that much of an issue with what I’m saying.

Well we can agree that I would prefer to have just a bit more time with Abby and maybe Joel during prologue. That would drive more impact early on for Abby and more shock value.

However we will have to disagree that after you play for half the game as Abby and get into her perspective, her issues and problems and still want to kill her at the end, I thought it would be dishonest and cruel. And to Ellie as well as it would give her an even darker redemptionless ending as it would only underscore how people only act selfishly on emotion including Joel and that doesn't bring anything good.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Everyone is a survivor but some have friendly groups and other serve in crazy army. It's not the same.
It's beyond surviving from zombies at this point

The way the factions go on killing people who break their rules also shows that they don't really have any lack of personal problems in this apocalyptic world where most people are considered even more expendable than they are in current times.

The infection seems less of a threat in this game that could be wiped out if humans banded together again.

 

[tassletine]

That's not true that there was only one right answer at the end of Last of US pt1.

I interpreted it to mean that Joel wanted to forge on in a new world with what they've got, not look towards a vaccine, which probably wouldn't have worked anyway, and all the other people trying rebuild the past.
That's what I liked so much about the ending. Joel was running from the past and had buried his daughter, so had come to terms with it, but was now rebuilding a new family with Ellie. It was very optimistic in such a bleak way. Don't look back. Forge on. The others who wanted the vaccine's were all making the same mistakes, obsessed with the past, trying to get back to it. Joel's future may or may not have been in synch with everyone else but it was optimistic. He had discovered a purpose again.

I'm aware that the ending could have been read in multiple ways though, and that's part of what made it such a brilliant piece of writing as if you speak the truth it is always multifaceted. Last of Us pt2 has this as well and is clever in parts, but it tends to be very heavy handed and doesn't seem to realise that the message it's sending is a bit trite.
I do like that ultimately it's about bringing two sides together but the Joel and Ellie partnership is sorely missed. We've seen this sort of story before and it feels so similar to so many other games. I don't think that ND realised that it was the Joel/Ellie thing that made the story stick out from the normal, not just the fact the story was morally correct. They've concentrated far too much on theme here, and not half as much on just hanging out with people you like, or even people you don't.

If you're going to make characters unlikeable then it's always to play the game of "Who do you hate the most" like in TV's Succession or characters you love to hate like Hannibal Lector or Don Logan in Sexy Beast. You have to direct your hate at them. Be appalled by them. There is a little of that here, but it stops and starts so much as to not really get into a rhythm, and the characters are generally pretty bland, including Ellie, which is a big shame. I

 

[Mypmarlo]

The Last of Us 2 plot has quite an obvious point:

Women were a mistake!

 

[Roni]

See all of what you wrote is totally true and obvious. But I think that’s what got to me about the story, was that it was so obvious. Like you could see the puppeteer pulling the strings a bit too much. Of course they had Joel’s death as brutal as possible and early and in the most tragic way - they are hoping that you respond with a semblance of the anger Ellie has - that way you can excuse her for basically doing nothing redeeming except look for revenge the next 15 hours. Then you switch to Abby and give her plenty more to do, and essentially copy paste the first games formula onto her story - have it be a redemption arc again etc etc (albeit a bit more shakily done) - then you get her to show mercy to Ellie - then you’ve effectively accomplished the goal of getting people to switch sides as much as possible - go back to Ellie continue to show how much the revenge still consumes her have her hunt down abby set Abby free, beat Abby and then show mercy and cry. Reverting back to a Joel flashback to show she is capable of trying to forgive and that was the last sentiment she expressed to him before he was killed (just to stick the knife in a bit more). Arrives back home, Dina is gone and she no longer has her connection to Joel through the guitar as she can’t even play it anymore due to her two fingers missing (I mean she could actually learn to play well like that, or even switch to left handed but that’s not the goal - the goal is to show that the quest took everything from her and now she is severed completely from who she was in the past.) I didn’t hate the story. But it was just a bit obvious in its manipulations.

That's ok, it being obvious doesn't detract from it at all for me. Maybe it does to you, but then the first TLOU shouldn't be a great story for you then too...

Yeah but it was deliberately front loaded (Structured) with good Ellie stuff and Bad Abby stuff, it’s all in the first 2-3 hours. You still play as Ellie till the 15 hour mark - then you switch to Abby and try to undo it. I enjoyed Abby’s sections much more honestly but it wasn’t exactly subtle the way they went about all of it.

Ellie isn't in Seattle to make friends, just as Abby wasn't in Jackson.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Good post, Faithless83

Pretty much since the original trailers for TLOU2 dropped, I have been wondering to myself "what's the point of TLOU2?"

But in a good way! I was confused but excited to see where ND would take a sequel. The Last of Us was one of my favorite PS3 games, even more enjoyable than Uncharted. I replayed it multiple times. I wanted to know why they were making a sequel when the first game was great on its own, one of the few AAA videogames that didn't end on a cliffhanger or set the stage for Yet Another Trilogy™.

I appreciated the singular nature of the game. The story in the first game was boilerplate and the characters were all tropes, but it all came together. It was not some emotional masterpiece.

As time went on my interest in ND waned (I was very unimpressed w U4), TLOU2 started to grow duller. I wasn't as excited.

I hear the explanation that the story was showing how brutal the world can be, and how everyone does bad things. H'yuk h'yuk Naughty Dog. What a dismal message especially in these current times! And what a step down from the previous game, which offered a clear message of "hold on to some version of hope even when you've messed up and made bad decisions".

You brought up the WOKE storyline and that is obviously being used as a defense, it's pretty obvious. Nope, there can't be any criticism of the writing in a game about gay relationships, so the critic must be a trans-phobe or a homophobe or something. Not much discussion needs to be spent on such an obvious schoolyard-bully tactic.

The first game is lightning in a bottle, but it has serious flaws. The second game wasn't likely to recapture that lightning and the flaws will come out over time. Good games don't need a legion of Twitter warriors telling everyone else it was a good game. People who enjoy this game don't need anyone telling them to enjoy it, either.

 

[Balducci30]

That's ok, it being obvious doesn't detract from it at all for me. Maybe it does to you, but then the first TLOU shouldn't be a great story for you then too...



Ellie isn't in Seattle to make friends, just as Abby wasn't in Jackson.

The first one worked for me due to the simplicity of its structure - I didn’t feel the hand of the writer nearly as much, everything felt earned.

And I know that, just the structure and pacing are off for me - the beginning wasn’t enough to carry me through the rest of Ellie’s story.

 

[MisterBrimstone]

I find so stupid that no character ever considers waking up Ellie and letting her decide if she wants to sacrifice herself. Everybody is wrong at the end of TLOU, Joel for deciding for her and the Fireflies for the exact same reason.

It makes no sense.

 

[Astral Dog]

Its a typical Revenge story but at the end there is a moral lesson that Revenge can be bad so don't do it

 

[sainraja]

If a game series can make you this conflicted about it, then, I guess, I did something right! lol

 

[Strategize]

Part of what makes it so ballsy, but also so good is the almost god-like status given to Joel and Ellie by fans after the first game, especially since it's been 7 years so now there's nostalgia in it aswell.

The more beloved a character the more difficult it is to tell a story about perspective and empathy. You can't get this kind of impassioned reaction from a new I.P, the story just wouldn't work aswell without Joel and Ellie.

Years and years of people doing everything in the book to try and make Joel out to be objectively in the right, only for them to get slamdunked back into reality. All without fully demonizing him either, the man stuck to his choice to the very last scene. Glorious stuff from Neil.

 

[Woggleman]

The game is very much shades of grey and that is what I like about it.

 

[majestix1988]

its typical revenge story that leads its prequel to be loved that can be poisoned than can hurt its sequel on its players.... if you got too much attached on tlou world it will backfires on you......there is no heroes or villains on story its just a cruel world they live on it

 

[toker818]

Killing is bad after killing 500 dudes then that's where you have too stop u might go to LESBIAN HELL

 

[ColonialRaptor]

Perpetuating the cycle of hate and violence is never worth it. Both Ellie and Abby loose so much because they both couldn’t let it go or perhaps find a way to understand and forgive and the ones that truly suffered were the people around them but in the end losing all those people is the true suffering and Abby probably had it worse than Ellie but she really started the whole thing even though Joel maybe deserved for die for sacrificing the human race’s future when Ellie was mostly clear she wanted to help no matter what during the first game.

But mostly it’s about how shitty the world is since outbreak day.

But in the end it is mostly about setting the stage for the ongoing gameplay and having an excuse to murder porn.

 

[Yoboman]

My take on TLOU2 is that it is a story about love, obsession and self actualisation.

The story follows the three central character arcs, who have quite obviously been expressed as tales of revenge at three different stages. Joel at the end of his path, having committed revenge years before. Abby who completes it at the start and Ellie who begins the cycle of revenge throughout the story.

What the overlapping themes of these are is that they are derived from acts of love for parent or sibling. But that love becomes obsession in the face of achieving vengence. All 3 lose sense of themselves and we see the result of that

Joel is a different person. He is happier but his world revolves around Ellie. He has spent 20 years obsessing over the death of his daughter and pushing everybody away, a joyless life without meaning. Fear of that happening to Ellie drove him to commit an awful act. Elloe is now his love and obsession and he now needs Ellie to derive his own happiness in the world from.

We see Abby is consumed by vengeance in flashbacks. She is shown pushing away the relationships around her. Consumed by thoughts of vengeance against Joel she pushes away her childhood sweetheart, she rejects love to train and be ready to take vengeance. Her obsession against Joel leads to her to lose everything, she is left hollow and all her friends die as a result of that act.

And ironically like Joel she can only find solace in another. Lev becomes everything to her, she leeches onto him to find meaning in her life. But it is hollow, she has no self purpose anymore

Abby never confronts her acts or what she did. She never shows remorse. In fact she holds a holier than thou attitude "I let you live", as if she is the arbiter of Ellies existence. The same people who tried to kill Ellie in her sleep like some illegal organ harvesters. She never faces the actions she or her Fireflies commit, and she is therefore never able to see value in herself while hiding from her past.

Ellie walks this path to the brink. Her obsession is on full display because it is the vengeance we enact, her obsession derived from love of Joel. But with each act she commits you never see her rejoice, it only deepens her pain. Her obsession leads her to continue chasing beyond the point of reason.

Not killing Abby in the end was the most important act. She did not follow Joel and Abby into that hollow existence, where her only value will become helping another. She maintains her self actualisation, which is symbolised in her being able to walk away and leave everything behind in the final scene.

The importance of the Joel and Ellie flashbacks come to mind. The tender moments of love in a dark world, to be able to be yourself and speak about your own dreams and goals in life. That's what Ellie risked losing, and it was her learned forgiveness of Joel that allowed her to let Abby go

Owen had an important line when Abby asked "what happened to us?". He said "we forgot to look for the light". Abby has lost that. But Ellie has not. Mixed in with her journal obsession of Joel and Abby is hints of her artistic and happier side. For her once she let go, she can look for the light again. And a moth always goes to the light, which is why it was symbolised to heavily. The Ellie we loved is still with her, she just needs to find the path that gets her back to that on her own

Thats my reading at least

 

[Northeastmonk]

My take on TLOU2 is that it is a story about love, obsession and self actualisation.

The story follows the three central character arcs, who have quite obviously been expressed as tales of revenge at three different stages. Joel at the end of his path, having committed revenge years before. Abby who completes it at the start and Ellie who begins the cycle of revenge throughout the story.

What the overlapping themes of these are is that they are derived from acts of love for parent or sibling. But that love becomes obsession in the face of achieving vengence. All 3 lose sense of themselves and we see the result of that

Joel is a different person. He is happier but his world revolves around Ellie. He has spent 20 years obsessing over the death of his daughter and pushing everybody away, a joyless life without meaning. Fear of that happening to Ellie drove him to commit an awful act. Elloe is now his love and obsession and he now needs Ellie to derive his own happiness in the world from.

We see Abby is consumed by vengeance in flashbacks. She is shown pushing away the relationships around her. Consumed by thoughts of vengeance against Joel she pushes away her childhood sweetheart, she rejects love to train and be ready to take vengeance. Her obsession against Joel leads to her to lose everything, she is left hollow and all her friends die as a result of that act.

And ironically like Joel she can only find solace in another. Lev becomes everything to her, she leeches onto him to find meaning in her life. But it is hollow, she has no self purpose anymore

Abby never confronts her acts or what she did. She never shows remorse. In fact she holds a holier than thou attitude "I let you live", as if she is the arbiter of Ellies existence. The same people who tried to kill Ellie in her sleep like some illegal organ harvesters. She never faces the actions she or her Fireflies commit, and she is therefore never able to see value in herself while hiding from her past.

Ellie walks this path to the brink. Her obsession is on full display because it is the vengeance we enact, her obsession derived from love of Joel. But with each act she commits you never see her rejoice, it only deepens her pain. Her obsession leads her to continue chasing beyond the point of reason.

Not killing Abby in the end was the most important act. She did not follow Joel and Abby into that hollow existence, where her only value will become helping another. She maintains her self actualisation, which is symbolised in her being able to walk away and leave everything behind in the final scene.

The importance of the Joel and Ellie flashbacks come to mind. The tender moments of love in a dark world, to be able to be yourself and speak about your own dreams and goals in life. That's what Ellie risked losing, and it was her learned forgiveness of Joel that allowed her to let Abby go

Owen had an important line when Abby asked "what happened to us?". He said "we forgot to look for the light". Abby has lost that. But Ellie has not. Mixed in with her journal obsession of Joel and Abby is hints of her artistic and happier side. For her once she let go, she can look for the light again. And a moth always goes to the light, which is why it was symbolised to heavily. The Ellie we loved is still with her, she just needs to find the path that gets her back to that on her own

Thats my reading at least

Good points! Joel mentions that Ellie was his second chance on life.

I think Part II had to happen. We never saw the consequences of Joel’s actions or Ellie becoming aware of it all. She even said Joel made her life meaningless. That she should have died there. I think they couldn’t have summed it up any better. Joel’s first scene is how complicated things got after Ellie learned the truth. Ellie doesn’t know how to deal with it. Abby is probably the best type of character. Attached to her friends and family, strong enough to fight for their deaths. and she’s physically built for this world. You see a different Abby towards the end. She’s not fighting to get revenge, she’s fighting because Ellie won’t let her run away. Ellie has to either accept that or find a purpose in life, which is why I think Ellie is going to try and find someone who can create a cure from her body.