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What's wrong with wanting to live in a virtual world?
- Thread starter HolyBaikal
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OK I believe OP is just messing with us now. I fell for it. I'd be seriously worried if someone actually thought this way.
This crossed my mind as well.
However the topic has given rise to some interesting discussion so not all is lost.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Thats ultimately an echo chamber. If no-one ever has differing perspectives no-one challenges anyone else to rethink anything and then everyone remains the same
EDIT; Whoops posted twice
Omnii-chan
Member
This very much, from personal experience. I spent about 3-4 years of my spare time in life gaming with friends I met online to make up for friends who moved for work/ met other people and such after high school. I had very little in person interaction that wasn't just being told what to do at work, or a quick word with a cashier at a shop for examples.
When I started to spend more time with people again as friends, I found it very hard to have conversations, read the situation/ mood, read body language, read what was okay and not okay to say and often freeze up not knowing what to say, and more...
I'm still kind of learning in a way. It's awful and I feel like an idiot, but I'm getting better and thankfully the people around me are okay.
There needs to be a balance of virtual life and real life or you will fuck yourself up socially.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I don't mind that, as long as I'm happy.
I don't think that people will remain the same. People always change when they have new memories. But I rethinking things too much is unhealthy. People always say that confidence is a good thing and not to care too much what others think.
I'm not very good at not caring what others think when I hear it, because I'm very sensitive. But if I stay away from hurtful things, that's okay.
Why not make it user-generated then? Have people's minds fill in the details.
Holodecks ARE VR. An advanced form of it, but its still just Virtual Reality.
mcz117chief
Member
I definitely thought like that when I was a kid
I guess you are right. What I meant is that you can't simulate touch or smell with just a headwear like Oculus Rift.
HolyBaikal
Banned
What did I say wrong? :<
so this is a way of escaping reality and not because you want to live in a pink castle with speaking horses
Justifying the mechanism which could support a utopia with "Robots can take care of the menial tasks" doesn't make sense, because no they cannot. Instead, the menial task changes from "Wash the dishes" to "Fix and maintain the robots", "Help assemble the robots", and "Clean up the mess when the robots screw up." Even if we have robots for those tasks as well, at some point it requires a human touch.
Likewise, the world's problems wouldn't go away with a redistribution of wealth. Removing all debt just destroys the value of the money, resulting in an economic crash which destabilizes a country even further. The money is where it is for a reason, with checks and balances of the availability versus the spending. Want to know what happens when you ignore the debt and try and naively make it go away? You end up with an out-of-control rate of inflation which makes defining the value of anything impossible.
Check out what happened when Germany was just printing money to cover their debts. Same principal: Flooding the world market with all the money locked up in the 1% would just devalue the money's worth and result in a huge market crash.
As far as propping up a capitalist regime? Damn right I do. The work I do has value to my employer, but the value I bring him in doing the labor has to be weighed against the availability of the labor I perform. The skills you learn off and on the job define the value of your time, because the skills you learn can be worth something.
If someone is stuck being a dishwasher, they have no marketable job skills. We live in a world where there are hundreds, if not thousands of free resources which allow a person to learn those skills while working as a dishwasher. Does self-betterment and at-home learning guarantee you a better job and a better life? Hell no. But it's a damned good place to start.
As an aside, true equality is a terrible thing, because it rewards mediocrity: Why would anyone go through the time and stress of becoming a medical doctor if the end result of all their hard work and study is that their standard of living is still the same? Socialism frequently rewards mediocrity, while capitalism rewards hard work. Maybe you weren't born with rich parents and all the advantages, but with some luck and plenty of hard work your children might be born that way.
We may one day see a world where barely anybody has to work, but I imagine it'll more resemble Monica Hughes' The Game rather than a utopia.
Likewise, the world's problems wouldn't go away with a redistribution of wealth. Removing all debt just destroys the value of the money, resulting in an economic crash which destabilizes a country even further. The money is where it is for a reason, with checks and balances of the availability versus the spending. Want to know what happens when you ignore the debt and try and naively make it go away? You end up with an out-of-control rate of inflation which makes defining the value of anything impossible.
Check out what happened when Germany was just printing money to cover their debts. Same principal: Flooding the world market with all the money locked up in the 1% would just devalue the money's worth and result in a huge market crash.
As far as propping up a capitalist regime? Damn right I do. The work I do has value to my employer, but the value I bring him in doing the labor has to be weighed against the availability of the labor I perform. The skills you learn off and on the job define the value of your time, because the skills you learn can be worth something.
If someone is stuck being a dishwasher, they have no marketable job skills. We live in a world where there are hundreds, if not thousands of free resources which allow a person to learn those skills while working as a dishwasher. Does self-betterment and at-home learning guarantee you a better job and a better life? Hell no. But it's a damned good place to start.
As an aside, true equality is a terrible thing, because it rewards mediocrity: Why would anyone go through the time and stress of becoming a medical doctor if the end result of all their hard work and study is that their standard of living is still the same? Socialism frequently rewards mediocrity, while capitalism rewards hard work. Maybe you weren't born with rich parents and all the advantages, but with some luck and plenty of hard work your children might be born that way.
We may one day see a world where barely anybody has to work, but I imagine it'll more resemble Monica Hughes' The Game rather than a utopia.
Thinking like this as a kid is fine, that's what kids think about because they still don't have a good grasp at reality. I should've worded it better, if an adult thought that way and was serious about it then I'd be worried about what kind of experiences they went through to make them think like that.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I would hope so. I want real friendships. People who really care about me, and I care about them.
That's true. Well, I do think that technology is exponentially increasing. But I do think it will take a few decades at least. Hopefully not too long.
I am planning on longevity escape velocity, so I am hoping on living for trillions of years.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Yea, and expressing yourself takes tons of work...there's not an easy way to express yourself, especially when creating a world, impossibly achievable VR or not.
KittenMaster
Member
Based on some of the recent posts in this thread: Roleplaying might be for you OP, and the internet is a fantastic medium for it with more emphasis on creative writing.
You just can't expect a VR world/Holodeck to do all of the imagination for you.
You just can't expect a VR world/Holodeck to do all of the imagination for you.
It's been said before but this is a mentality that will lead to serious issues later. You can't just ignore the things that make you even remotely uncomfortable or unhappy. Do you have an interest in addressing your insecurities (sensitivity, perception that people are mean, etc) and becoming a better person? Or do you just want to avoid all risk and live what is essentially a lie?
This is a serious question, but if it's the second option than you should not be asking for people's approval to live that kind of life - but know that it is ultimately a hollow and selfish way to exist.
DoktorEvil
Banned
You are a selfish person then and I wish to no longer continue this conversation.
I thought you were confused again, as you were in the nutrition thread you posted last week about Ray Kurzweil's dietary lifestyle being the only way to live and asking for protein.
But, you're serious about trying to use VR to escape your life...a life that is generally a decent place to live. You have the goddamn luxury of Internet access! You have the luxury to throw away hundreds of dollars on supplements. You enjoy so many more luxuries the average person 50 years ago did not have.
autoduelist
Member
To be fair, you're looking at it through a perspective deeply rooted in our current culture. Something like the society the person you're responding to would be so different that we ourselves would be different. We'd think different and act different.
Just discussing 'menial' jobs, for example, it's fairly easy to posit a world where rather than having a faux-class based system where some people get tracked into 'menial' careers like being a janitor, that 'burden' could potentially be shared. That is to say, if we didn't live in a capitalistic society, it's quite possible we could survive and thrive on far less work per week (whatever that might be -- 10 or 20 or 30 hours per week, rather than, say, 40-60). If we then took that additional 'free' time and everyone spent, say, 3 hours a week doing a revolving 'menial task' (clean the local school, or whatever) it's not too hard to imagine at least the skeleton for a different society/culture. And in that society/culture, perhaps people would be less likely to be destructive to their surroundings (from throwing litter out car windows to peeing on the floor in a public bathroom) since the upkeep would be shared and so we'd (theoretically) be more mindful, and less likely to think it's 'someone else's problem'.
The above examples aren't meant to be specific recommendations -- I'm more pointing out that a society that different from us could work out alternate solutions to problems that we'd balk at, just like that society might balk at the thought of having someone be required to work 3 'menial' jobs to put food on the table for their family.
It's hard to imagine the exact way it would work, since any other society would have slowly evolved over time, just like ours did. Capitalism is just one way to view (and effectively run) the world, and it undeniably comes with a set of problems. Forcing all other possibilities through a capitalistic paradigm is far too limiting, since of course nothing else would seem to work/make sense if we limit our minds to it.
There's no doubt capitalism has some distinct advantages. It tends to be really good at accelerating a certain type of 'progress', for example. But it has it's issues too.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I don't think it's just a perception, a lot of people are really mean.
Around 1 in every 6 women are raped. That's.. a lot of mean scary people.
Lie is a negative word, but I guess so.
Personally, I think that pain is unhealthy. And saying that pain is good seems unhealthy to me.
mcz117chief
Member
HolyBaikal, have you seen the movie Gamer ? That is how VR is going to look like, pure expoitation and I am not talking about the "wargame" they are playing, I am talking about the social virtual world that you can see in a couple of scenes.
I wouldn't mind your idea of VR, but the lack of touch, smell and other sensations would prevent me from really enjoying it, it would be so lifeless :/
I wouldn't mind your idea of VR, but the lack of touch, smell and other sensations would prevent me from really enjoying it, it would be so lifeless :/
how old are you im geniunely curious
HolyBaikal
Banned
I like roleplaying! I always roleplay when I'm playing MMORPGs.
I wish MMORPGs were more like MUSHes.
Living in a world where everything goes your way isn't good for your well being and for your own, how can i say it, "evolution" as a person. Why do you think (good) parents sometimes refuse to give their kids what they want when they're yelling for getting that toy or candy? So that they can teach them exactly that. That not everything will go the way they want.
What's the opposite of selfishness? Everybody is selfish, so I don't think you can blame HolyBaikal for that, especially not after her saying that she cannot NOT care about feelings, thoughts and stuff of others. If she felt someone needed her help, she probably could ignore that just as badly as she could someone being mean to her. Helping that person in this case would make herself happy again, ergo selfishness (but the one we all have and the one you probably mistake for something other than selfishness. I don't think there exists anything other than selfishness though).
Sorry but that's a HUGE exaggeration. And people who abuse drugs, alcohol etc usually have to get help. I'm a smoker, if I didn't smoke I'd probably punch every single customer I see at work. I'm coping with the real world, I'm not hiding from it in my basement.
Some people count to ten, some people work out, some people just don't care, some smoke or enjoy a drink.
Is this the same as dreaming of a sterile social interaction world, where I just get money from some unified social welfare office, so that I can sit in my dark room and just talk about fables with magical people who never disagree nor fight pretending to be someone else?
PS: yeah OP is trolling hard, I'm outta here, there's no point. That 3D printer thing is just so silly, I'm lucky aliens came down from Mordor to build my house, or I'd be here waiting for 3D printers to be around.
Well then... That's that. Clearly you're not willing to listen to anyone so I'm not sure exactly the purpose of this thread. Your mentality towards VR is eerily reminiscent of an addict's towards their given vice, but I digress.
I sincerely hope that one day you'll see that there is more to life than shirking risk and responsibility, and that the world is largely full of good experiences, but you'll obviously need to decide for yourself when you open yourself to that.
Source? I find that quite unlikely.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Can you please call me a girl, instead? I identify as a girl. Please?
GravityMan
Member
Moderation is key. That goes for any hobby or interest...VR, video games, books, sports, TV, surfing the Internet, playing on your iPhone. As long as you have some self-discipline about it, escapism is fine...and even good for you.
People who spent too much time on the computer or watching TV while they were kids and early 20-somethings tend to be socially awkward, because they haven't gotten sufficient exposure to the outside world and are thus ill-prepared for how the actual world works and the adult expectations and responsibilities associated with that.
People who spent too much time on the computer or watching TV while they were kids and early 20-somethings tend to be socially awkward, because they haven't gotten sufficient exposure to the outside world and are thus ill-prepared for how the actual world works and the adult expectations and responsibilities associated with that.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I believe its accurate, actually. And very depressing.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I'm not trolling. :<
What's wrong with that I said about 3D printers?
What's wrong with that I said about 3D printers?
Lumpy Onion
Member
Don't you mean MUDs? Yeah, I love roleplaying in MMOs. I hate how the majority of players in the ones I have played seem to think of RPers as some kind of freaks. I find roleplaying for fun a lot more enjoyable than the insane stat and gear grinds they end up being.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Well, I guess MUSHes are a type of MUD.
are you roleplaying right now
DoktorEvil
Banned
https://rainn.org/
It's true and a depressing statistic to hear.
What she wants out of VR is escapism from failing to accept what the real world offers.
In actuality, she'll be just as bullied and insulted by mean people just as frequently as in the real world. Difference being, in the real world, social pressures exist and people are pressured into behaving. You cant say the same about people existing in anonymity.
I'd call that selfish and to add she wants us to accept being paid a minimum income by a government body (which needs to still be managed by people mind you) to sit on our assess and play with VR and have all of our basic needs taken care of like a vegetable.What about any part of that is not selfish?
u w0t
You can't just spout a philosophy and perpetuate it as the truth. That's complete nonsense.
In any case, I agree with the rest of your point, though to add: think of the question "Does Facebook make us lonely?" Obviously, the answer is no. But then it becomes a deal of "are lonely people attracted to Facebook?"
VR is one of those things that will stay on the public radar for a long time once it proves mainstream viability. A lot of people want an escape from real life, but I personally don't see VR as the way to do it. You can quickly lose sight of what is and isn't real, and that becomes a problem when you have to interact with it to live with your fantasy.
In a perfect world, you wouldn't have bills to pay, you wouldn't have your health to worry about, you wouldn't have all these /real/ things "distracting" you. But reality is far from ideal, and confusing it with another 'reality' would cause a lot of dissonance with what you currently know to be true.
I don't think the human mind is capable of managing the troubles of more than one reality. A lot of people already go crazy in this one.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Manmademan
Member
it's a bit misleading.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/health/nearly-1-in-5-women-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html?_r=0
that's pretty broad, since it includes "attempts" that weren't successful.still high, but probably not THAT high.
CuthbertAllgoodz
Member
Sure, why not? There's a lot of fields where you could invest your time and energy to help people in your situation.
Alligatorjandro
Banned
huh
I know people asked that question already, but how old are you? You can't be asking something like that if you're in your 20s or older... i mean seriously, just because you want to be a cute girl doesn't mean you should go work in medical field lol.
HolyBaikal
Banned
In virtual reality, I could eat pastries all day and it wouldn't be unhealthy. That sounds like so much fun.
This is going well beyond the ken of Neogaf, but if that is really a priority then save for a surgery. Many have done it before and many trans people are happier "on the other side" than they previously were. Escaping from the reality of who you are with VR is far less healthy than facing it head on and making a change.
If you're really serious about these identity issues it might be beneficial to see a professional.
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