Can someone try to explain to me what a "liberty" is when translating?
How do you translate a cultural reference without taking liberties so that the audience can understand?
How do you translate puns, word play, and phonetic jokes as a whole without taking liberties?
How do you translate scenarios that rely on cultural understandings such as knowledge of the school system, etiquette, food, or any number of other things, without taking liberties?
Can someone try to explain to me what a "liberty" is when translating?
How do you translate a cultural reference without taking liberties so that the audience can understand?
How do you translate puns, word play, and phonetic jokes as a whole without taking liberties?
How do you translate scenarios that rely on cultural understandings such as knowledge of the school system, etiquette, food, or any number of other things, without taking liberties?
Can someone try to explain to me what a "liberty" is when translating?
How do you translate a cultural reference without taking liberties so that the audience can understand?
How do you translate puns, word play, and phonetic jokes as a whole without taking liberties?
How do you translate scenarios that rely on cultural understandings such as knowledge of the school system, etiquette, food, or any number of other things, without taking liberties?
So then what is a liberty as Kudo or yourself would hold it in translation? I mean obviously if they totally change a scene that's taking liberties, but where's the line?
I don't know what game(s) you're referring to specifically regarding the "It's dangerous to go alone" reference, but I wouldn't be bothered by that. Outside of it being a classic Zelda reference, it's a pretty plain line on its own so I don't think it'd be distracting to anyone.
I don't have a problem with it either, but for all intents and purposes it is a video game "meme". I've had friends who don't play video games make the reference, which would probably be the line at which I would say it becomes so. It is a pretty plain line which makes sense in context and isn't distracting to anyone, my argument is that the doge reference is much the same. The people who don't like the usage usually hate the material being referenced. If someone hated the overuse of "It's dangerous to go alone" they would likely have the exact same reaction to its placement in another game.
Also where would the references and changes in localization listed here fit in (Paper Mario TTYD spoilers):
When they start cutting content for rating reasons other than "we LITERALLY couldn't get the game rated by PEGI/ESRB if this were left in". So basically everything Nintendo does.
The localizations I hate the most are the ones that change games because they assume we as an audience are just too dumb to figure out what's going on. Most of these are difficulty changes like in early Final Fantasy games but there are some like Phoenix Wright, Persona 1 where it's assumed that Westerners just can't handle that a game is set in Japan. Brock's jelly donut style localizations are terrible and should be shunned.
If you read a piece of fiction or watched a film set in Japan would you expect to be able to understand every single piece of cultural reference without getting off your lazy ass to investigate too?
Do you understand every cultural reference from 30-year old sitcoms?
The localizations I hate the most are the ones that change games because they assume we as an audience are just too dumb to figure out what's going on. Most of these are difficulty changes like in early Final Fantasy games but there are some like Phoenix Wright, Persona 1 where it's assumed that Westerners just can't handle that a game is set in Japan. Brock's jelly donut style localizations are terrible and should be shunned.
The Yakuza games are my personal poster child for localization issues that live at the intersection of accessibility, authenticity and cut content. I'm glad SEGA puts in the effort they do because god knows they don't make money in the West off that franchise. Still, I really wish they hadn't done any of the name-juggling they did in the first game. Not helping was Sega's generally poor track record of managing fan expectations about what they could accomplish given their resources and deadlines. Fans were much angrier at what was cut from the third game than they would have been if the situation had been explained more thoroughly ahead of release.
It's difficult to judge when a localization has taken it 'too far,' because most of the examples that are provided are but a few lines from what is generally tens of thousands of lines of translated text. Either I'm interested in a game or I'm not, and the quality of the script matters to me a hell of a lot more than string bikinis and boob sliders. But it's very, very hard to have a conversation about just the script because the noise raised over the removal of fan service drowns out almost everything else.
I provide Yakuza as an example because it's a series I've played the hell out of and still love, even if I didn't get to romance Cabaret Girls and play a nigh impossible head to head quiz game in English. For me to say a translated script has gone 'too far' would mean that I understood enough of the original script and found the professional translation lacking, which has almost never happened, or I'd have to know about other changes made during localization which dramatically alter the gameplay (Final Fantasy IV SFC -> Final Fantasy II SNES, during which the difficulty of the game was dramatically reduced. That's the sort of thing that would drive me up the wall if I knew about it.
When they start cutting content for rating reasons other than "we LITERALLY couldn't get the game rated by PEGI/ESRB if this were left in". So basically everything Nintendo does.
If you read a piece of fiction or watched a film set in Japan would you expect to be able to understand every single piece of cultural reference without getting off your lazy ass to investigate too?
Do you understand every cultural reference from 30-year old sitcoms?
There's clearly a difference between some sort of cultural reference and diction. Diction is rarely without context, by nature of being diction. If a character cracks some joke referring to something that only someone with intimate knowledge of Japanese culture would understand -- which is hugely common in every culture, and not at all limited to Japan, of course -- then the only way you're figuring that shit out is with some sort of active help. It is part of a localization team's job to offer that context so that a player doesn't feel the need to go out of their way to understand.
Have you all never heard of jokes 'travelling'? This is exactly what that's referring to.
But you're not playing a Japanese game if it's in English anyway, you're playing a localized/English version of a Japanese game.
If you really want to play a "Japanese game" then you're going to play it in Japanese. If you want to play a Japanese game you should be able to handle reading it in the original language you believe needs to be kept pure.
Think about it this way: In fire emblem there are around 60 usable characters, each of which have unique supports with many other characters. If you don't have a few characters who have interesting characterization like that, they would all blend together. There are already many instances where characters seem too bland in the game for me. The translation of the original in the example you provided could be applied to literally any of the children characters and no one would blink an eye. If it takes something as super-dupity silly as this to make a character memorable in a series with as many characters as this, I welcome it.
So then what is a liberty as Kudo or yourself would hold it in translation? I mean obviously if they totally change a scene that's taking liberties, but where's the line?
Totally changing a scene would be too far imo, but like.. Like changing a joke inside a scene to fit English more maybe? Something that doesn't change structure of the scenes and tries to convey the original meaning.
Can't really think of any good examples, even changing the joke is something I'd be against as it would sound weird with Japanese audio, but I could live with it.
Maybe I used the word liberties too lightly and just prefer literal.
There's clearly a difference between some sort of cultural reference and diction. Diction is rarely without context, by nature of being diction. If a character cracks some joke referring to something that only someone with intimate knowledge of Japanese culture would understand -- which is hugely common in every culture, and not at all limited to Japan, of course -- then the only way you're figuring that shit out is with some sort of active help. It is part of a localization team's job to offer that context so that a player doesn't feel the need to go out of their way to understand.
Have you all never heard of jokes 'travelling'? This is exactly what that's referring to.
I find that the recent cases that we are seeing it are bit innocent compared to what happened to Revelations: Persona and the Gagharv Trilogy, the first having a really weird localization (even if the characterization of the characters was not as bad like it would seems) that even affected the gameplay, and the second having a bad translation that hurt the characters and the tone of the original game.
Actually I think that if Persona 3 or Persona 4 would have been published recently, they would have a similar reaction in the media like what happened with Fire Emblem Fates. Personally I would be happy to see the original references, but the localized one are more consistent to the knowledge of the western audience, and after all, they are not are so important to keep them.
One problem with localization for long running game series is that what was once seen as vague disposable information can become an explicit plot detail in a later entry. I think this often happens with genders of off-screen characters.
Was the noodle shop in Ace Attorney 4 the same that was referenced (hamburgers in the west) throughout the series? That would be a good example of this.
The fact eating noodles isn't some weird thing in west, I have to wonder the value of the change in the first place.
I haven't played the japanese version but I shelved her forever in my game. She only talks about her horse.
MattZ2007 said:
Think about it this way: In fire emblem there are around 60 usable characters, each of which have unique supports with many other characters. If you don't have a few characters who have interesting characterization like that, they would all blend together. There are already many instances where characters seem too bland in the game for me, if something/anything makes them more interesting I am all for it. The translation of the original in the example you provided could be applied to literally any of the children characters and no one would blink an eye. If it takes something as super-dupity silly as this to make a character memorable in a series with as many characters as this, I welcome it.
I thought that it wouldn't be unreasonable to hope that the localizers would TRY to keep the game faithful to the original when bringing it over. But going by how many people absolutely adore localization changes I guess I was wrong.
I don't understand every joke or reference I come across in foreign or old fiction. Does that need to be updated or changed for me? Or is it just an unreasonable expectation for a consumer to figure out what's so funny about the joke?
But doesn't that change the experience of the game? If a Japanese player reads a line of dialogue, finds it funny because of some cultural reference, and laughs... isn't that a different experience from an American player reading a line of dialogue, contemplating its cultural significance, learning a bit about Japanese culture, and not laughing (presumably)?
Turning a comedy into an educational piece isn't what I'd call an accurate translation. If it's funny, just not funny to the people we're selling it to, isn't that... stupid?
Equivalences to vague connotations and cultural significance are what I'd consider most important in a localization. Especially when you consider that the medium is interactive. It's about replicating the experience without changing it fundamentally. I'm not saying the examples in the thread are too far or even not far enough, but to assert that not leaving foreign cultural references in a translation is tantamount to spoonfeeding? That's absolutely tone deaf, reductive, and insulting.
You will never experience the game as it was originally intended without actually playing it in Japanese with a native level understanding of the language. Period. Everything past that is cheating, on some level. It's an art form and a difficult one at that to localize, and the final result will always be an amalgam of opinions and personal biases because it is art. It will never be perfect and it never can be perfect.
There are great and bad examples, and there's really no disputing that. There should always be a dialogue among fans about localizations because not only is there always one internally among the teams who put in the work, but they're being made largely for you. If you don't enjoy it as it was intended, then that's something that they need to consider. To go beyond that and to critique the entire process? I don't get that. If you want to learn about Japanese culture, there are better ways to do it than blowing on the face of a 900 year old loli, believe me.
I hate the memes too, but they're not bad because they changed something that doesn't make sense to the new audience, they're bad because they're forced and out of place. You're complaining about something that's simply low quality, which is totally understandable and I'm with you on that. However, that is clearly divorced from simply replacing a joke that relies on information that a new audience doesn't have, with a joke that makes more sense both to the audience, and in the revised script.
I don't understand every joke or reference I come across in foreign or old fiction. Does that need to be updated or changed for me? Or is it just an unreasonable expectation for a consumer to figure out what's so funny about the joke?
Frequently, this is because you're not the target audience. If I write a novel with satirical elements written by an American, satirizing American culture, and then someone in Kazakhstan who speaks English reads it, they're not going to get all the jokes and references. Obviously. Because they're not the audience I'm writing to. However, if someone were to localize my novel for them, not necessarily in their native tongue, but such that they could understand, you bet your ass there would be tens if not hundreds of footnotes, because that context is needed. Additionally, many diction choices and phrasings might be edited so that they're better understood.
Given that footnotes don't exactly fit in a video game, that context needs to be offered directly in the script.
But you're not playing a Japanese game if it's in English anyway, you're playing a localized/English version of a Japanese game.
If you really want to play a "Japanese game" then you're going to play it in Japanese. If you want to play a Japanese game you should be able to handle reading it in the original language you believe needs to be kept pure.
I think it would be pretty sad if every piece of exported media from a particular country had to be westernized for my obviously incompatible sensibilities.
I don't understand every joke or reference I come across in foreign or old fiction. Does that need to be updated or changed for me? Or is it just an unreasonable expectation for a consumer to figure out what's so funny about the joke?
Is the foreign or old fiction being released for an "audience for foreign fiction" or "audience for old fiction," or is it being released for a general "audience for fiction"?
I'd argue that most people don't give a shit that Nintendo, for example, is a Japanese company. They aren't buying Nintendo's games because they like Japanese games and culture, but because they like Nintendo's games.
Does it make sense to localize those games as if they're being sold to an audience that specifically has a taste for Japanese games/culture?
I think it would be pretty sad if every piece of exported media from a particular country had to be westernized for my obviously incompatible sensibilities.
I don't think they all do. But games like Fire Emblem (again, for example) aren't just niche Japanese games; Fire Emblem is a global franchise that sells to a global audience. It doesn't make sense to export it as if it was intended to be a distinctly "Japanese" kind of product in the first place.
For something like Senran Kagura, I think it probably makes sense to not Westernize it; if you're buying Senran Kagura, you're pretty much definitely buying it for the Japanese sensibilities, not the global appeal.
I still remember when fan translators went a bit too far in the opposite direction of Nintendo. That Tales of Phantasia that went a bit over the top with the drunk scene.
Oddly, for the GBA remake the NOA version censored the mentions to being completely drunk and unable to move, replacing them with "too much food", while in the EU version they are still drunk.
People put way too much emphasis on the "intent" of the text. The intent of the text is the text. It's "character made this joke" not "character made this joke that everyone playing the game will understand and laugh at."
Basically I think translations should be as literal as possible and any other aim is misguided. How good they can be comes down to the skill of the translator.
I think it would be pretty sad if every piece of exported media from a particular country had to be westernized for my obviously incompatible sensibilities.
People put way too much emphasis on the "intent" of the text. The intent of the text is the text. It's "character made this joke" not "character made this joke that everyone playing the game will understand and laugh at."
Basically I think translations should be as literal as possible and any other aim is misguided. How good they can be comes down to the skill of the translator.
A lot of Japanese stuff comes out as literal nonsense in English or simply has no direct translation.
Like, there's literally no translation for Japanese formalities ("literal translations" actually use really bad approximations like "Mr." for "-san") because that formality structure actually does not exist in Western culture and language.
A literal translation is always, 100% of the time, broken English. There is straight-up no exception. When you ask for literal translation, this is what you are asking for.
And in a game like Xenoblade Chronicles X which is literally depicting Western culture but is originally written in Japanese, you'd actually be deforming the way the game is meant to be read if you tried to impose Japanese language conventions onto the characters.
If "the text" is "the intent," then they should just leave all that stuff in Japanese since it has no English translation. (And you should just import, since you only care about "the words" which are in Japanese and not "the meaning as contextualized for a global audience" which is in English.)
People put way too much emphasis on the "intent" of the text. The intent of the text is the text. It's "character made this joke" not "character made this joke that everyone playing the game will understand and laugh at."
The point of a joke isn't to make a joke, it's to be funny. Literally any person who writes a joke would be disappointed if the reaction is simply "Oh, it's a joke". Obviously not everyone is going to get the joke, but you don't want it to fall flat for a significant portion of the audience either.
A big problem with the FE translation, outside of removal of swimsuits and patting heads and whatever... the writing is just Really Really Bad a lot of the time.
Im not going to pretend that video game writing is good as a whole (Is the ENTIRE industry filled with wannabe Joss Whedons?) but the FE one is particularly bad.
Hyperbole. I don't think "understandable" and "faithful to the original" are mutually exclusive . You are railing on a extreme interpretation that not many, or any one is asking for.
Basically I think translations should be as literal as possible and any other aim is misguided. How good they can be comes down to the skill of the translator.
Resident Evil thread? The localization in that series is embarrassing and atrocious, and has been for twenty solid years with little improvement. Crucial plot details are either inconceivably mistranslated, or missing altogether. Character personalities are wildly inconsistent between games due to none of the individual translators sticking to the source material and instead wanting to impart their own design. The localization is also the culprit of most perceived retcons and plot holes in the series.
Don't even get me started on the dialogue. Most people attribute it to bad writing, but that's simply not the case. The dialogue is just fine in the original Japanese scripts. It's only in the English scripts that you get the goofy sounding nonsense.
People put way too much emphasis on the "intent" of the text. The intent of the text is the text. It's "character made this joke" not "character made this joke that everyone playing the game will understand and laugh at."
Basically I think translations should be as literal as possible and any other aim is misguided. How good they can be comes down to the skill of the translator.
A big problem with the FE translation, outside of removal of swimsuits and patting heads and whatever... the writing is just Really Really Bad a lot of the time.
Im not going to pretend that video game writing is good as a whole (Is the ENTIRE industry filled with wannabe Joss Whedons?) but the FE one is particularly bad.
When I write, I create the text to pass on a certain idea. The idea is the point, the text is simply the tool to transmit it.
If someone did a word-for-word translation of anything I wrote, I'd think of it as a damn shame, because I'm confident that it would lose part of the idea; the actual point of writing.
Mark is a much better design than Masao. I half ironically half really love the Revelations: Persona changes, but yes it is too far.
Anyway, I come down to four factors as to how up in arms I get over localization changes (this is mostly a repost from the last thread on this subject sorry). Basically it comes down to how much the original Japanese work was the product of a single authorial intent. The more the Japanese game was the product of a single mind, the less I want it changed. Unless we have some kind of insider knowledge of how the game was made, though, that's hard to discern as fans looking at the English version after the fact. So I think this is what we should consider:
-The original work was the product of a number of authors rather than a single individual
-The proximity of the localizer to the Japanese staff
-The original work wasn't particularly literary in quality
-The original work was aimed at a wide consumer audience
I think the single/multiple author distinction is the most important to begin. Once a number of different people on the Japanese team start writing flavor text and character interactions we're already in a collaborative environment. Collaboration necessarily means that no single individual can take ownership of the entirety of the work, and likely can't even take complete ownership over any individual portion of the work, because things get workshopped, tossed around, signed off by superiors, etc. In that way the localizer is just another equally valid member of the collaborative effort. This combines with the proximity of the localizer to the Japanese staff. If the localizer is involved with the process from the start, in constant communication and back and forth with the Japanese writers, then the localizer likely has just as much understanding of the themes and character traits and ownership of the final product as any member of the Japanese writing staff. Essentially, the localizer can be an author as well.
Next is the "literary quality" of the final Japanese product, and the consumer groups targeted by the original work. In a sense this is really just whether or not the Japanese text was any good. However, I'm not just trying to use this as justification for rewriting things I don't like. Instead, I'm trying to use this to understand how much whoever wrote the original Japanese text cared about what they were writing. If the dialogue in the Japanese end product was just a bunch of trashy anime and game tropes aimed at the lowest common denominator, and it wasn't even a particularly well-written example of those tropes, then it's less likely that the person writing the dialogue really cared about what they were doing. It's also more likely that things were just designed by committee to hit some kind of sales goal. If the original writers didn't care about what they were doing, it seems OK for the localizer deviate more from the original author's intent.
Again these are all just factors for us to apply after the fact to try and approximate how much authorial intent was present in the original Japanese work. Nothing is dispositive and everything needs to be considered. If a game was entirely created by a single Japanese indie developer and then localized by a contract operation 5 years later with no direct communication from the Japanese dev I would want things to stick as close to the original text as possible even if it's shitty Japanese text.
Resident Evil thread? The localization in that series is embarrassing and atrocious, and has been for twenty solid years with little improvement. Crucial plot details are either inconceivably mistranslated, or missing altogether. Character personalities are wildly inconsistent between games due to none of the individual translators sticking to the source material and instead wanting to impart their own design. The localization is also the culprit of most perceived retcons and plot holes in the series.
Don't even get me started on the dialogue. Most people attribute it to bad writing, but that's simply not the case. The dialogue is just fine in the original Japanese scripts. It's only in the English scripts that you get the goofy sounding nonsense.
Don't even get me started on the dialogue. Most people attribute it to bad writing, but that's simply not the case. The dialogue is just fine in the original Japanese scripts. It's only in the English scripts that you get the goofy sounding nonsense.
That is bad writing. The person doing the translation is a poor writer, in English. Just because the source text may have been written competently, and translated competently, the resulting end English text can still be written poorly if the translator has a poor grasp of writing fundamentals.
I think the sad, tepid, dull answer is, when it starts cutting shit you wanted or changing the identity of the content from that which you were invested in. It is absolutely 100% subjective. Someone with no investment in a feature, or in the property itself, will be little impacted by what the game is not. The line lies exactly where each individual draws it.
