If you are creative and you accept any line to be draw between what you can and cannot say, you are a failure.
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Where's the line between cultural cross pollination and cultural appropriation?
- Thread starter Kinitari
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If you are creative and you accept any line to be draw between what you can and cannot say, you are a failure.
Pretty good explanation of why some people get upset. The thing that troubles me is that culture is ill defined, vague and so fluid to make the concept of appropriating culture somewhat absurd. What hairstyles do white people have as a culture? Mullets? Well they were in fashion at one stage, but they're no longer in fashion. Bangs? Perms? Side-tails? The list goes on and on as to cultural elements that change over time, there's very little that remains static. So Mullets were a thing with white people, and now 30 years after the fact, if another ethnic group started wearing them, and were treated differently or it was perceived in a different and more positive manner, is it still appropriation?
The point of that was to explain the fluid and vague nature of culture. So many things are common across cultures for good reason, from dresses to hairstyles to religions and cultural practices.
My problem with this view of appropriation makes it so the person who is doing the "appropriation" is to blame for the actions of others. Its those who promote the new and put down the old who are to blame.
and there it is. for real this time.
Well here's an example. I'm Ethiopian, who grew up in Toronto. What am I allowed to appropriate? Which groups am I supposed to consider when deciding? Or do I have carte Blanche?
What if one of the guys in the second example just ain't as cool as he thinks?. What if you need to hear the phrase from the second guy before it works properly?
I mean, Apple have made a whole lot of money from being the best, rather than the first.
America took a lot of free labor
Poodlestrike
Banned
I'd say that the difference is, basically, not crediting the original source culture, acting like it's something that you came up with, and then having that stick. It's only after the fact that it becomes cultural appropriation.
The problem with most claims of cultural appropriation these days is that they try to be pre-emptive, which generally just results in painting with an over-broad brush.
The problem with most claims of cultural appropriation these days is that they try to be pre-emptive, which generally just results in painting with an over-broad brush.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
Appropriation is when something is taken and made cool/accepted by one culture while derided in the context from which it was taken. There are a lot of posts out there talking about how white women will get dreads and color their hair and people say it's beautiful and trendy, but when black women do it, it'll be called ghetto or trashy.
But the line is inaccurate and racist as it sees a group as unchanging regardless of new generations being different people than old ones. They are not the same group. And the fact that there are multiple groups in society, even among those who share the same skin color, with different views and ideas.
But how do you define a group? Wherever I see cultural appropriation discussed it lumps everyone in a race together into one group, which is inherently racist. Just because some white people over there mocked and degraded a trend doesn't mean some other white people over here ever shared their views, but when they try the trend out for themselves it gets seen as appropriation simply because the two parties involved are the same race.
This. I agree with Opiate's view pretty much 100%, but using the term "appropriation" to describe this phenomenon in a negative sense is absolutely wrong because it frames the issue as a problem with the original cross-cultural act rather than the majority culture's double standards.
Cultures aren't made up by one individual.
Culture appropriation isn't hearing an underappreciated joke in class, repeating it louder and taking the credit for it when people laugh.
It's Group A looking at Group B doing X, imitating Group B doing X, and then adopting X and acting as if Group B had nothing to do with the creation of X by ignoring their involvement.
Agreed. You can look to people who shit on white rappers and R&B artists for being shining beacons of appropriation, when in fact quite a few show respect for the black artists that came before them and actively acknowledge those influences. You can't blame them for the actions of white folks that give them credit they don't deserve and didn't ask for
Just be "yourself." If you don't know who you are, then that's not something a stranger on NeoGAF can answer for you.
Your heritage is that of Ethiopian. Of course you're allowed to explore that. If you care, do it to your heart's content. If you don't care, you're not obliged to suddenly be some Africa-the-Motherland guy.
You grew up in Toronto. Your'e a Torontonian. Do what you will with that. You're not obliged to try to make yourself "fit" in.
notworksafe
Member
technological appropriation. makes me sick just thinking about it
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Is it? Or was the italicization meant to indicate sarcasm? Because I see the same faces that always show up in topics like these who have absolutely no good faith in conversation and just want to make it sound like white people are victims. The same people who don't even make an attempt to understand what it means.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
That's definitely problematic. Surely the worst case scenario is everyone except for the originator of the phrase acts like it's lame until "other friend" starts using it.
But there are gradients here. If "other friend" thought it was cool from the start and he has better delivery for jokes and so he says the same phrase a week later and it goes over better because he's a natural comedian, that's a pretty complicated situation.
I don't think there is a simple formula here where X is unquestionably cultural appropriation. I'm only trying to describe the general concept, because I agree with others that simply doing things that other people or cultures came up with shouldn't be inherently bad.
Are the same people who praise the white person the same people who deride the black person? Or is that just an assumption? Because this sounds like when people accuse GAF of being a hivemind. It's generalizing an entire group based on what certain people in the group do.
Eh, my family celebrates christmas without the slightest regard to the religious aspects of it. Though Sweden is pretty secular
Most of the examples that I've seen don't follow that pattern. It seems more like Group B don't want Group A doing 'X' in their own way, regardless of whether Group B are acknowledged as originators or not. I can't think of many examples where things have been truly 'stolen' without any kind of 'original property of Group B' footnote.
Well that's just it, isn't it. You're often talking about wildly different people. Break the link between skin colour and culture.
I agree that Cultural appropriation isn't a bad thing in and of itself. It's just a thing.
The context is what matters though and cultural appropriation is a place where there is a LOT of context to be aware of.
So of course you have to take it case by case Kintari. But I think we can probably get a much better idea of this by comparing the Washington Redskins logo , or even better the Atlanta Braves Tomahawk Chop, to the All Blacks Haka War Dance.
Very similar situations but the first two are just odious while the third is completely not.
The context is what matters though and cultural appropriation is a place where there is a LOT of context to be aware of.
So of course you have to take it case by case Kintari. But I think we can probably get a much better idea of this by comparing the Washington Redskins logo , or even better the Atlanta Braves Tomahawk Chop, to the All Blacks Haka War Dance.
Very similar situations but the first two are just odious while the third is completely not.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
When we've got black ladies with bright braided/dreadlocked colored hair represented in the media as favorably as white ladies doing the same thing, sure. I think one of the younger Kardashian girls got a lot of people talking last year when she did this and got bigger lips around the same time.
I think a lot of people in here are seeing discussions of appropriation with finality, like being labeled with something, rather than as an opportunity to discuss where we're at in 2015 with these things.
But that's it? Can I learn Japanese and get into the culture? What about black culture in North America? South america? The Caribbean? What about European culture? Or other African countries? Where are the lines? Could I go as Eddie gordo for Halloween?
I really am not trying to be snarky, this is all useful conversation for me. I just feel like the regular extremes used in examples don't apply to me, and probably a lot of people. And with the complicated nature of the topic, I wanted to really start to understand the blurry in-between
BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO
Junior Member
Yup and white people have a history with this shit.
What I've basically seen is people co-opting "cultural appropriation" into a singular definition in order to browbeat their argument. The one I see around here is attempting to use cultural appropriation and cultural exchange as two distinct and well defined categories. Cultural exchange can be just temporary experience of another culture or conversation that is filtered and interfaced between people of two different cultures. It could be a two way sharing of culture where each group learns and appropriates.
For some reason culturally appropriate is always used by these people to imply a wrong exist in only one direction. I see it as an inherently neutral thing. People want to bake in disparagement into the word, and thus lose the argument upfront. Because they don't actually take the time to explain all the complexities that they are trying to elucidate. The language ends up contrived and bars others from entering into the conversation, which puts any group at these arguments core at risk of creating their own echo chamber. It just shows how delicate an idea can be, it can't be just be injected into people. You'd destroy your point in the process.
Nobody has a claim to prevent people from sharing in or taking influence from the arts, aesthetics, customers that come out of your cultural background. Just as they have no right for you to not borrow back. The world is a better place for this, and is worse off whenever one tries to hold each other to their own ethnic heritages. Their is no deny that the majority demographic enjoys privileges but it's a misguided notion to think that you settle it in a way that dictates what people are allowed and not allowed to share in.
For some reason culturally appropriate is always used by these people to imply a wrong exist in only one direction. I see it as an inherently neutral thing. People want to bake in disparagement into the word, and thus lose the argument upfront. Because they don't actually take the time to explain all the complexities that they are trying to elucidate. The language ends up contrived and bars others from entering into the conversation, which puts any group at these arguments core at risk of creating their own echo chamber. It just shows how delicate an idea can be, it can't be just be injected into people. You'd destroy your point in the process.
Nobody has a claim to prevent people from sharing in or taking influence from the arts, aesthetics, customers that come out of your cultural background. Just as they have no right for you to not borrow back. The world is a better place for this, and is worse off whenever one tries to hold each other to their own ethnic heritages. Their is no deny that the majority demographic enjoys privileges but it's a misguided notion to think that you settle it in a way that dictates what people are allowed and not allowed to share in.
What if you're a white girl and you want to express "yourself" by wearing curly hair or putting it in braids? Because that's not okay according to a lot of people.
Case by case. I don't think there's a better answer. For Eddie Gordo for example I think you'd need to ask a Brazilian forum what they think about the character and get a sense from the different opinions you get there.
Edit: Of course just the fact that you're thinking about the issue means you're proabably much more likely not to step on any toes as compared to people who don't give a shit and go "WOOO BLACKFACE PIMP AND HO PARTY AT THE FRAT TONITE!"
PeskyToaster
Member
This is the problem when trying to set global rules for what are really arbitrary divisions humans impose on themselves.
xKilltheMx
Member
If you put this in terms of race/culture then this just falls apart (and looks ignorant).
If something is "cool" it shouldn't matter what group it comes from for you to accept it as cool.
If I see a white guy walking around with a toilet seat on his head and then see a black guy doing it later they both stupid and seeing it from a different guy doesn't make it any cooler.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
To be fair, they're just following our example. We don't have the faintest clue what Christmas is about, either ;P
The confusion and need for clarification, at least on my end, comes from when that opportunity for discussion is a sidenote whenever flashpoints are discussed. Invariably the people and incident are scrutinized in much greater detail(on both sides) than any discussion on the current overall cultural attitudes. It makes me think the underlying attitude is "leave our shit alone until you get your act together".
Case by case is tough, but I think it's the best answer I've gotten so far. Sucks it can't be easier.
But isn't that how it's usually seen by everyone?
"This is cultural appropriation therefore it has to stop" is the sentiment I often read when someone brings it up, and that has a certain finality to it
MTV Decoded: What's Wrong with Kylie Jenner's Cornrows
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYrgKIH1X2Y
Watch up to 1:45.
For those that don't know who she is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYrgKIH1X2Y
Watch up to 1:45.
For those that don't know who she is:
Isn't that it? Holidays are the perfect example as how they were culturally appropriated by big business into money schemes. Halloween, Christmas, Labor Day, etc
Glad you posted that.
While it might be a shame that many people today have forgotten the roots of their favorite music, it's no different from any issue of people not knowing their history. Saying that Elvis and other white artists were maniacally laughing and stealing black artist's work is straight-up nonsense. It also ignores the major role that pop culture and art have played in combating prejudice.
But you can't force others to experience things through your value system, which is where this demand that you "respect the original intention" eventually falls apart. On a micro level of individual artists and works, sure. But blowing up this concept to a cultural level is like a bizarre form of copyright where the color of your skin or your ethnicity somehow turns you into a gatekeeper of something you had overall little to do with.
Someone wants to turn Christmas into a carousing orgy on a float parade, I'll think it's stupid, but it's not my "right" to say what they can and can't do with the holiday.
(Also, the definition where it's wrong and appropriation doesn't work with several examples here, including the feather headdress. I haven't seen any indication Pharrell hates Native Americans or thinks they shouldn't be allowed to wear their traditional garb. That would need to be the case by some definitions here for his headgear choices to be appropriation.)
This is exactly what cultural appropriation is. It's this simple.
You're erasing 98% of the use of the word 'corny' over the last 20 years, man. I mean, we see people gravitate to role models that look like them, perhaps there are subtle nuances in the execution of humour or 'swag' that cross cultural lines easier than racial ones.
It's like the people that definitely aren't asking for censorship when they loudly and aggressively complain about types of 'problematic' content. Oh, I totally didn't want censorship, I just didn't want to see that thing ever again!
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
So are we going to bring up Elvis Presley and his love of the music but skip over the millions of dollars he made over his lifetime and death, the monument to 'his culture' called Graceland, him being labeled 'The King'?
If cultural appropriation is imprecise, you'll have to excuse us as we try and remember the chitlin circuit, thousands of performers forced to work in a segregated system and everything that system stood for. How is this hard to understand?
If cultural appropriation is imprecise, you'll have to excuse us as we try and remember the chitlin circuit, thousands of performers forced to work in a segregated system and everything that system stood for. How is this hard to understand?
that is surprisingly good from MTV
And folks still find it so hard to understand.
I was thinking of a way to explain but this vid and Opiate's post summed it up perfectly.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
Yeah, but everyone does it so it's okay.
speculawyer
Member
I don't have a problem with 'cultural appropriation'. Seems like a ridiculous PC concept. Anyone can do anything. Japanese 50's rockers are cool, white rappers are cool, Korean elvis impersonators are cool, etc. Do whatever. People need to chill out and let people do what they want.
Love the album Regatta de Blanc by The Police. I'm glad this stupid concept of 'cultural appropriation' didn't exist when it came out.
Love the album Regatta de Blanc by The Police. I'm glad this stupid concept of 'cultural appropriation' didn't exist when it came out.
Cultural appropriation has been a thing for a long time. How do you think native people in Hawaii where I grew up felt about white people and hula dancing? Hawaiian culture, as an example, has been turned into a kitschy, vanilla export for white people to feel like they're indulging themselves in the exotic for like a hundred years now.
teruterubozu
Member
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