QFTstuburns said:But the point is they are then getting the upscaled 720 resolution displayed as 1080i, not the 480 they currently get.
QFTstuburns said:But the point is they are then getting the upscaled 720 resolution displayed as 1080i, not the 480 they currently get.
beermonkey@tehbias said:There were millions of HDTVs sold that can't take 720p, I buoght a Sony 53" set five years ago that could not, and many high-def sets were still being sold 2-3 year ago that could not.
The people who bought these sets are just as deserving of years of usefulness as those PS3 owners that want the PS3 platform to last ten years or more. To this end, virtually every high-def source component other than the PS3 is capable of scaling 720p to 1080i.
xabi said:So just so I am clear. I have my PS3 settings so that 1080p is just checked. For CoD4, the TV says that it is getting a 1080p signal. Does the framerate/performance suffer as a result?
What about for the other games that only support 720p? What does the PS3 do with those games (I only have CoD4 so far)?
JodyAnthony said:all I know is i have a Sony HDTV that I cant play my Sony Playstation 3 games in 720p on.
If Sony had never made any HDTVs that didn't support 720p, I could agree with the argument that they don't HAVE to support it. The problem is they did make millions of those tvs.
stuburns said:But why should people rely on Sony to support it? Just because most HD devices have scaling doesn't mean PS3 should have to. It's also a question of how far back do you support, there have been analogue HDTV's since the seventies, are those people any less deserving then you?
It's buyer beware when you buy new tech, 1080i is now not a popular format, 720p has become the ubiquitous current HD format. Sony never promised upscaling.
The native resolution of a game doesn't change under any circumstances, so you won't be effecting the performance. But COD4 is only 720p (it's actually only 600p upscaled).
Fourth Storm said:Dude, are you employed by Sony or something, because your anti-consumer attitude is quite baffling otherwise. 1080i and 720p have been standards for HDTV since the beginning. 1080i was extremely common when the PS3 was announced. It's only recently that 1080p has become more reasonable in price and looking to take over as standard. Should Sony stop supporting 720p now too? The system is fully capable of 1080i, and upscaling between 720p and 1080i is relatively easy. Many tvs do it by themselves. There is no reason that one should have to play a game in standard def if they own an HDTV - 1080i or 720p. It is in Sony's best interest to have their games look as good as they possibly can no matter what display you own. Microsoft gets this. You should too.
stuburns said:But why should people rely on Sony to support it?
beermonkey@tehbias said:1) Because Sony themselves were selling those HDTVs that don't do 720p.
2) Because everybody else does.
3) Because it's good, consumer-friendly business.
If they aren't willing to fix it, they should put a sticker on every system box. "Not in High-Def on all HDTVs".
stuburns said:I just don't agree that Sony should have to implement this.
I could see your point if it was a feature that was removed, or promised and not delivered, but people are going out and buying this consumer electronics product and complaining about features it doesn't claim to have anyway.
To me it's the same as wanting my PS3 to have a PS2 memory card reader, it should have one, there is no reason not to, Sony themselves sold over 120 million PS2's and over 100 million PS1's so presumably there are a lot of PS3 owners that would want a memory card reader. But it's not a promised or removed feature. I brought the console knowing this wasn't included, so what right do I have to complain about it.
No one made you buy a PS3, I just don't see any logic to complaining it doesn't have something it never promised to.
Fourth Storm said:That's part of the problem - that it's not clear, and the consumer can easily come out the loser. The PS3 box doesn't say "supports 480p, 720p, and 1080p only." It is just marketed as an HD machine, which includes 1080i. You buy HD movies or watch HD television and it works on any HD set. It sucks that developers need to put in a little extra work, because there wasn't a standard HD resolution agreed upon, but that's just the way it is.
By your logic, in 5 years or so (since the PS3 is a 10 year machine) when 1080p sets are standard, it would be fine to just cut support for 720p sets as well? Not that this is feasible or likely to happen, but they could always say it still supports HD. You can't punish early adopters like that. I mean, you can, but it's just not cool.
Culex said:That does blow. I had thought it was fixed.
DEO3 said:Wait, this is still an issue with the PS3?
This is the main reason I didn't pick one up at launch, since mainy of the launch games wouldn't have been playable in HD on my television, I just figured I'd pick one up later when they were cheaper and all games supported 1080i... but I guess I won't be picking one up after all?
"HDTVs", huh? So do me a favour. Download this test image and display it full-screen on your so-called "HDTV" by whatever means available to you, then tell me how many line-pairs you saw (hint: zero). Anyone else with a 1080i-only "HDTV", please, join in the fun.beermonkey@tehbias said:There were millions of HDTVs sold that can't take 720p, I buoght a Sony 53" set five years ago that could not, and many high-def sets were still being sold 2-3 year ago that could not.
The people who bought these sets are just as deserving of years of usefulness as those PS3 owners that want the PS3 platform to last ten years or more. To this end, virtually every high-def source component other than the PS3 is capable of scaling 720p to 1080i.
bcn-ron said:"HDTVs", huh? So do me a favour. Download this test image and display it full-screen on your so-called "HDTV" by whatever means available to you, then tell me how many line-pairs you saw (hint: zero). Anyone else with a 1080i-only "HDTV", please, join in the fun.
Test images for a few different resolutions can be found simply by browsing the directory, so feel free to get to the bottom of all this. You'll probably find that you have bought a display designed for and capable of 576p resolution. Or IOW, you're not losing much if you feed it a 480p signal. In case of 60fps games, you're actually better off with 480p.
Zeitgeister said:I vaguely remember some old firmware update stating as much, yeah.
And since GTA4 does do the upscaling from 720 native, my guess would be that the scalingfunction is present in the PS3 firmware, but is left into developer hands to be used / activated.
And being software, that probably takes up a good deal of effort and will impact performance -which is bad when you're on a strict deadline. From a management POV usually not worth spending resources on since most HDTV's have scalers anyway.
I wonder who then got the function into GTA4 though. Rockstar, TakeTwo, Sony/MS, or a combination of (interests in) all parties?
bcn-ron said:"HDTVs", huh? So do me a favour. Download this test image and display it full-screen on your so-called "HDTV" by whatever means available to you, then tell me how many line-pairs you saw (hint: zero). Anyone else with a 1080i-only "HDTV", please, join in the fun.
Test images for a few different resolutions can be found simply by browsing the directory, so feel free to get to the bottom of all this. You'll probably find that you have bought a display designed for and capable of 576p resolution. Or IOW, you're not losing much if you feed it a 480p signal. In case of 60fps games, you're actually better off with 480p.
QTF. That's almost like saying there's no noticeable resolution difference between a PS2 at 480i and a PSOne at 240p.HomerSimpson-Man said:Wait, are you trying to insinuate a 1920x1080i image isn't HD simply because it's not progressive?
What?
Equating 1080i to 576p is fairly erroneous to boot, since one is an interlaced image and the other is progressive. Why do people keep bringing up a progressive resolution to explain a interlaced resolution, it defeats it's technique in the first place. You get two sets of picture information interlaced for the full moving image, not some frozen picture process midway. There is actually more information end result at 1080i than 720p.
TelemachusD said:I think you need to read this. The PS3 is literally one of the only HD devices in existence that doesn't scale its output to the various HD resolutions.
I'm not asking for native resolution 1080i/p content, just scaling.
dogmaan said:Micrsoft pre reserved GPU time and memory for upscaling, thus ensuring compatibility with all HDTV's
Sony has not reserved any GPU time or Memory for upscaling and has left it up to the developer to implement if they want, i believe sony have released code for developers to use in their own engines, so dev's don't have to completely write their own Scaling algorithms
any game made since the beginning of 2007 could have had the opportunity to include upscaling on the PS3, so the blame is not entirely Sony's if a game does not support 1080i
the new firmware update is rumoured to have freed up a lot of RAM, so maybe we will see more of the older games have 1080i patched in like burnout
Also looking at the diagrams of the Toshiba super companion chip in the PS3, the diagram on page 13 shows a possible upscaling capability of the chip:
Cell-companion chip diagrams
Alas it is also possible this chip was taken out of the 40GB PS3's as the die for this chip looks a lot smaller now (possibly cut down as the companion chip has many features the PS3 would never use)
CowGirl said:You are entirely missing the point. This is not a technical issue. It is entirely possible for the ps3 to perform these tasks, the problem is that many games don't.
What should be happening is either:
1. The operating system performs the scaling OR
2. There is a TRC that forces developers to support these resolutions
Spasm said:Yes, the PS3 is capable. Yes, it also depends on the developers. The problem is, developers have to sacrifice a bit of texture memory for a larger frame-buffer. It's not much, but when you have to shove everything into 256MB, every little bit counts.
This is also probably why a lot of developers don't use page-flipping, it would use TWICE the framebuffer memory... hence, we get tearing.
Developers are making a trade-off... Using every little bit and byte to make their games look as good as possible in magazine shots, at the expense of broader HDTV support, and silky smoothness.
I have no idea if this is accurate or not, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Spasm said:Developers are making a trade-off... Using every little bit and byte to make their games look as good as possible in magazine shots, at the expense of broader HDTV support, and silky smoothness.
LCGeek said:One reason I hate marketing is because of what you said. Games aren't like food on tv from what you get in that actual store chain but because of money people put up essentially with a gigantic lie that in the end screws every consumer out their money, this is human apathy at work in the easiest way possible.
Smoothness don't happen in games because publishers are stupid and will launch a product well before polish has come in to play.
As for the comments back a bit ago upscaling sucks period and I can tell you never worked with photos to see an obvious point. You lose data period when you upscale and image and cause interpolation to fill in the date in the game why some prefer this to native is insane.. Since games largely use textures (that are mostly likely still being compressed heavily)in a conventonal matter it's beyond me why you would upscale from something that isn't half the size of the image you're going to. Upscaling is fine say you don't make more than 10-20% increase you go above that and you lose way more fidelity. Hey lets pay 2k for this nice tv and 400$ machine that can output native 1080p yet use something that isn't natively done for the resolution. The notion that gamers buy in to these hd machines with crap support for the most part is like exercising without changing your diet and then wondering why the results are ass. Upscaling only magnifies the problem not hides it or makes it more tolerable.
The scaling hardware on Xbox 360 doesn't cut into memory and GPU time, as software scaling with shaders on PS3 might.dogmaan said:Micrsoft pre reserved GPU time and memory for upscaling, thus ensuring compatibility with all HDTV's
Sony has not reserved any GPU time or Memory for upscaling and has left it up to the developer to implement if they want, i believe sony have released code for developers to use in their own engines, so dev's don't have to completely write their own Scaling algorithms
:lolstuburns said:It's not Sony's fault, their console is basically designed for 720p as a standard, you have the wrong TV.
DemonCleaner said:well how about buying a REAL hdtv?
I think the word "games" being in the thread title is somewhat applicable to your comment here.MidgarBlowedUp said:This is such a dumb thread. Arguing about how the PS3 can or can't do 1080i is completely retarded. Of course it can do 1080i, even the fucking PS2 did 1080i.
keyrat said:That said, I somewhat doubt the 'millions' number that's being thrown around here.
dogmaan said:Micrsoft pre reserved GPU time and memory for upscaling, thus ensuring compatibility with all HDTV's
Sony has not reserved any GPU time or Memory for upscaling and has left it up to the developer to implement if they want, i believe sony have released code for developers to use in their own engines, so dev's don't have to completely write their own Scaling algorithms
any game made since the beginning of 2007 could have had the opportunity to include upscaling on the PS3, so the blame is not entirely Sony's if a game does not support 1080i
the new firmware update is rumoured to have freed up a lot of RAM, so maybe we will see more of the older games have 1080i patched in like burnout
Also looking at the diagrams of the Toshiba super companion chip in the PS3, the diagram on page 13 shows a possible upscaling capability of the chip:
Cell-companion chip diagrams
Alas it is also possible this chip was taken out of the 40GB PS3's as the die for this chip looks a lot smaller now (possibly cut down as the companion chip has many features the PS3 would never use)
beermonkey@tehbias said:There were millions of HDTVs sold that can't take 720p, I buoght a Sony 53" set five years ago that could not, and many high-def sets were still being sold 2-3 year ago that could not.
The people who bought these sets are just as deserving of years of usefulness as those PS3 owners that want the PS3 platform to last ten years or more. To this end, virtually every high-def source component other than the PS3 is capable of scaling 720p to 1080i.
beermonkey@tehbias said:HDTV launched here in 1998. By 2002, the CEA was reporting sales of multiple millions of HDTV sets per year. Anybody who has been involved in the hobby for a long time remembers that the majority of sets prior to about 2004 were RPTV and direct-view CRTs that couldn't accept 720p, and that these were the most popular kinds of sets.
It's definitely millions.
megarolleyes.King_Slender said:This is like someone complaining that their PS3 sounds like shit through a Victrola.
Opiate said:As someone with relatively low knowledge on the subject, can someone answer me one question:
Would it cost more money to consistently support games in 1080p rather than maxing out at 720p? I assume the answer is yes, because it clearly costs more to support 420p than SD, and 720p over 420, I just want to make sure this is true before making any points.
High definition television displays in 1080i. If your television supports this signal, it should also support high-definition games
In either case, Sony is to blame. Both for not including a universal scaling solution and, barring that, for not requiring all games released on their console to support 1080i (which, again, is the resolution of high-definition television (THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT)).King_Slender said:It does - it's just the games that don't support the TV.
epmode said:In either case, Sony is to blame. Both for not including a universal scaling solution and, barring that, for not requiring all games released on their console to support 1080i (which, again, is the resolution of high-definition television (THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT)).
Leaving important functionality decisions like that that to the developer never, ever ends well.
King_Slender said:You adopt early, sometimes you get fucked over - deal with it.
King_Slender said:That being said, some games like Resistance run in 720p and can be scaled to 1080i
Opiate said:I don't think Sony is currently in a position in the market to make such demands.
beermonkey@tehbias said:960x1080 can be easily scaled by the PS3 to 1080i and 1080p; developers have made this clear. It only requires a 12.5% larger framebuffer than 720p. Developers could deal with this requirement.
Culex said:That does blow. I had thought it was fixed.
stuburns said:But why should people rely on Sony to support it?
Scott Henson said:"We call it Ana. This is the scaling chip that's in the 360," he tells me.