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[MontyBrown]

So mods have said that we can now talk a bit more freely on GAF, which is great.

My question is simple: Why was the transgender community on GAF (and now their new home) so downright militant and annoying?

I'm not going to claim to know a lot of trans people. I've met a few in real life, I've played games with a handful more, and they were all cool. Nobody really got arsey about the terms used, nobody dictated what opinions should be, and for the most part the fact they were trans wasn't even an issue. I'm sure I've probably encountered a few trans folks without even realising they were trans.

On GAF, however, not only was the trans community seemingly far more prominent than in society as a whole, they were also incredibly hostile.

Furthermore, they actually worked against their end goal. I'm a liberal person and I don't give a fuck how you live your life. If you're cool, you're cool. Seeing so many people push a warped agenda actually made me annoyed at the trans community. Which, I admit isn't fair because, as I've said, GAF's old trans community didn't represent the wider community, but it was by far my biggest exposure to trans people so it had that impact.

If you're trans and still posting here, I'd like to know your opinions on having (seemingly) unhinged and disconnected people try to represent you. Did you ever want to speak out against a lot of the madness?

Please note once again, this isn't an anti-trans thread whatsoever.

mod edit: Removed one aspect of post that was unfounded - user notified

 

[Mohonky]

Im a bit tired and have had a sedative so I can't be assed to go headlong into this subject but I wouldnt say Neogaf had a militant transgender community, I think you're kind of picking up on one item that was a larger symptom of users who felt anything that could be perceived to be an attack or derision of minorities or those that had a perception of persecution (legitimately or perceived) were 'below' the moral standing of the greater collective.

You could apply this to a large number of topics; everything LGBT, Muslims, Immigration, amything involving people of colour etc. Any time the narrative wasn't representing any minority or oppressed group in a positice manner, the discussion would immediately go to shit.

 

[S-Wind]

What did they say/do/enforce that you took issue with?

 

[Lupingosei]

It was not the trans community. It were certain people and some people used the trans community as a shield to shut down discussion and opinions they did not like. It was only a very few, but because there was this unholy alliance between and some mods it worked. But you cannot blame a community for it. Like the Jordan Peterson discussion in Canada. A lot of people from the trans community were on his side on this topic for example.

But they would have found other ways to shut down the discussion. The baiting, the dogpilling and all the other things had nothing to do with that.

 

[WaterAstro]

I think no one should bother with people claiming certain identities. We can't know for sure, and they aren't going to prove it.

I just avoid those discussions involving such controversy. The best thing to do on GAF is to not post at all in threads that trigger you.

 

[TheGraykid]

So mods have said that we can now talk a bit more freely on GAF, which is great.

My question is simple: Why was the transgender community on GAF (and now their new home) so downright militant and annoying?

I'm not going to claim to know a lot of trans people. I've met a few in real life, I've played games with a handful more, and they were all cool. Nobody really got arsey about the terms used, nobody dictated what opinions should be, and for the most part the fact they were trans wasn't even an issue. I'm sure I've probably encountered a few trans folks without even realising they were trans.

On GAF, however, not only was the trans community seemingly far more prominent than in society as a whole, they were also incredibly hostile. I would go so far as to say it was the trans community which really led towards the implosion we all witnessed.

Furthermore, they actually worked against their end goal. I'm a liberal person and I don't give a fuck how you live your life. If you're cool, you're cool. Seeing so many people push a warped agenda actually made me annoyed at the trans community. Which, I admit isn't fair because, as I've said, GAF's old trans community didn't represent the wider community, but it was by far my biggest exposure to trans people so it had that impact.

If you're trans and still posting here, I'd like to know your opinions on having (seemingly) unhinged and disconnected people try to represent you. Did you ever want to speak out against a lot of the madness?

Please note once again, this isn't an anti-trans thread whatsoever.

Hmm, there were toxic bad faith conversations about pretty much everything. This feels like a weird thing to pinpoint. Also, people say a lot of knowing and unknowingly mean things about Trans people. A lot of those conversations were filled with people saying hurtful things, but not even understanding that they were being hurtful. Like I don't think you're trying to be mean or disrespectful, but some of the things you say in this very post kinda sorta come off that way. Especially when saying things like "Nobody really got arsey about the terms used, nobody dictated what opinions should be", and I say that because understandably people will care about what terms get used to refer to them, and you seem to paint that as a bad thing.

It's difficult. I think a lack of knowledge and understanding of Trans people and the trans community can make these sort of things occur.

 

[llien]

Haven't seen much from militant trans (or actually any trans) persons on pre-drama GAF, to be honest. Maybe I was not checking the subforums you are referring to.

 

[OrionFalls]

Deleted by moderation team.

 

[MontyBrown]

Deleted by moderation team.

This isn't transphobic. I explicitly said that.

If anything, the old trans community were, ironically, an anti-trans movement for the vast majority of people due to how they conducted themselves.

 

[Nicktendo86]

I am not sure it was the trans community specifically but certainly issues with 'liberal' posters who were very militant and unsympathetic to differing opinions. You can actually see some of that on the 'other' forum which seems to have transferred over.

 

[Lupingosei]

I am not sure it was the trans community specifically but certainly issues with 'liberal' posters who were very militant and unsympathetic to differing opinions. You can actually see some of that on the 'other' forum which seems to have transferred over.

But even in the new forum they cannot do everything anymore. Without the backup of certain mods even they get banned there if they are going too far. Unfortunately this happened almost never in old-neo-gaf and so they used troll tactics or Cathy Newman style of baiting to get people banned.

 

[Shower Fairy]

The new forum is controlled by the same that used to control off topic views.
Here people who are civil are called disgusting and narrow minded. When actually they are just giving a different point of view
Then they get dog piled and baited until they slip up and get banned. Once they're banned, they then target the next person.
The new forum has already become a worse echo chamber than here ever was. The fact that still there is a lower user count,
The crazy count is in higher concentration and it really shows just how bat shit crazy they are as it's under a microscope.

Also MOD bias is ridiculous over there, they won't ban and warn people for baiting dog piling because they're apparently a "minority"
which as you may have seen in threads doesn't quite seem right, everyone is a person, and everyone should be treated equally.

My 2c

 

[OrionFalls]

This isn't transphobic. I explicitly said that.

If anything, the old trans community were, ironically, an anti-trans movement for the vast majority of people due to how they conducted themselves.

I’m aware you never said anything explicitly transphobic, but the way you said the trans community on the old NeoGAF were annoying doesn’t portray a very good image of the new NeoGAF.

 

[Lupingosei]

Also MOD bias is ridiculous over there, they won't ban and warn people for baiting dog piling because they're apparently a "minority"
which as you may have seen in threads doesn't quite seem right, everyone is a person, and everyone should be treated equally.

Of course, because in the system they follow they are always punching upwards. This is why also bullying on twitter or even death threads are somehow ok, because it is still punching upwards. They are not doing anything wrong from their perspective.

 

[TheGraykid]

I am not sure it was the trans community specifically but certainly issues with 'liberal' posters who were very militant and unsympathetic to differing opinions. You can actually see some of that on the 'other' forum which seems to have transferred over.

If a person's differing opinion is that someone is mentally ill or less of a person or undeserving of a life with basic levels of respect, then understandably, people might not care for that opinion.

 

[Relativ9]

I had left Gaf behind for a good year or so before everything happened, because of the state of things, just too frustrating to debate in there. But I lurked once in a while and made the odd post or two still in that time. So take what I say with a pinch of salt.

But I got the impression that it wasn't at all the trans community that were so up in arms about perceived slights against their community or members of it, rather it was a sort of activist hivemind that got really upset at every little thing that even approached a more nuanced view of trans issues. I don't remember which thread it was in (perhaps someone knows which one I'm talking about?), but I remember seeing one GAF member lay into another (Catholic) GAF member for basically being a transphobic Satan-Hitler saying he was human scum and so forth. When an actual trans person came to the guys defense and said he respected his right to stand by his beliefs. The trans person was accused of being the first person's fake account and dogpiled. From what I remember there was absolutely no evidence for this or even reasonable reason to believe it.

 

[MontyBrown]

I’m aware you never said anything explicitly transphobic, but the way you said the trans community on the old NeoGAF were annoying doesn’t portray a very good image of the new NeoGAF.

Well, they were, and many in this thread are agreeing with it.

Transphobic would be saying trans people are annoying. Saying GAF's old trans community were annoying is just a pretty common opinion, backed up by thousands of posts of evidence...

 

[Damerman]

Im a bit tired and have had a sedative so I can't be assed to go headlong into this subject but I wouldnt say Neogaf had a militant transgender community, I think you're kind of picking up on one item that was a larger symptom of users who felt anything that could be perceived to be an attack or derision of minorities or those that had a perception of persecution (legitimately or perceived) were 'below' the moral standing of the greater collective.

You could apply this to a large number of topics; everything LGBT, Muslims, Immigration, amything involving people of colour etc. Any time the narrative wasn't representing any minority or oppressed group in a positice manner, the discussion would immediately go to shit.

Pretty much this OP is coming off as really immature and naive to me.

 

[OrionFalls]

Pretty much this OP is coming off as really immature and naive to me.

I believe the term you’re looking for is transphobic.

 

[Mohonky]

If a person's differing opinion is that someone is mentally ill or less of a person or undeserving of a life with basic levels of respect, then understandably, people might not care for that opinion.

I dont recall anyone ever saying someone was less of a person or underserving of basic levels of respect and anyone who did rightly deserved a ban.

Regarding LGBT discussion and mental illness thats an interesting one. Mental illness has a stigma attached to it, no one wants to be told there is something wrong with them, however gender dysphoria is, and I dont know how to say it without sounding like an ass, a mental disorder. That doesnt mean someone should be ridiculed or treated with a lack of respect or dignity, but it does become a hard discussion to have when someones personal feelings and the discomfort or discrimination they have faced can lead them to feel uncomfortable with others discussion the issue. Its not something that is entirely understood at a scientific and medical level. I dont believe there should be anything wrong with it as a discussion but I can understand someone being uncomfortable with it.

Though something that does seem quite prominant are people who become 'outraged' or feel the need to be offended for others. ie. A women saying something doesnt actually bother them or it's not as big a deal to them personally would actually get berated by men because they felt she should have been outraged or offended.

As others have said, I dont believe there was a militant brigade of transgender posters, but many users who would actively become enraged at any perceived slight they happen to come across and stifle any discussion with goading and general shit posts leading to threads being shut down and overzealous moderators that were of a similar mindset who simply banned anyone with whose views didnt align with the clique.

 

[Kibakahn]

As Orionfalls says we are more open but it doesn't mean we are any more tolerant of homophobic, racist, sexist, or transphobic views.

And it should be obvious why labeling a entire community as annoying is not productive and problematic.

 

[SmokinGunZ1981]

I wouldn't say it was the community as a whole, it was just a number of users who shouted the loudest and would pull the outrage card when they heard an onion they didn't like.

 

[dolabla]

I wouldn't necessarily say it had to do with the trans community. I don't think you can really narrow it down to one specific thing because there were quite a few. It was a place for hardcore activism of many things that led to a very toxic community.

Because of things like "believe", that kind of mentality that flourished on here led to what happened and why so many were quick to turn on EL.

 

[highrider]

Tbh I just avoided any discussion about it. They are kind of the ultimate protected victim class and I’m sure some on forums would have used that to force their views with impunity. Which, like the op that hasn’t been my experience in life with the admittedly small amount of trans people I have known.

 

[TheGraykid]

I dont recall anyone ever saying someone was less of a person or underserving of basic levels of respect and anyone who did rightly deserved a ban.

Regarding LGBT discussion and mental illness thats an interesting one. Mental illness has a stigma attached to it, no one wants to be told there is something wrong with them, however gender dysphoria is, and I dont know how to say it without sounding like an ass, a mental disorder. That doesnt mean someone should be ridiculed or treated with a lack of respect or dignity, but it does become a hard discussion to have when someones personal feelings and the discomfort or discrimination they have faced can lead them to feel uncomfortable with others discussion the issue. Its not something that is entirely understood at a scientific and medical level. I dont believe there should be anything wrong with it as a discussion but I can understand someone being uncomfortable with it.

Though something that does seem quite prominant are people who become 'outraged' or feel the need to be offended for others. ie. A women saying something doesnt actually bother them or it's not as big a deal to them personally would actually get berated by men because they felt she should have been outraged or offended.

As others have said, I dont believe there was a militant brigade of transgender posters, but many users who would actively become enraged at any perceived slight they happen to come across and stifle any discussion with goading and general shit posts leading to threads being shut down and overzealous moderators that were of a similar mindset who simply banned anyone with whose views didnt align with the clique.

Sometimes it's not what a person is saying, it's how they're saying it and what they mean by it. Stating that gender dysphoria is a mental illness is fine, but people use that as a presupposition to basically say that trans people are crazy and so we shouldn't treat them with respect or should just ignore them if they have any complaints. To be honest thinking about it, I don't really know why a person would bring up mental illness when talking about trans people in culture, other than to denigrate them. This is probably why trans people and trans allies kinda don't wanna hear that shit. I think it is important to understand the history of arguments to make sure you're not just going over old ground.

Also regarding the "feeling outrage for people" concept. The world is a big place and different people fall all over the spectrum on different social issues. I'm sure there were women at the time who weren't really supportive of women fighting for the right to vote, and I'm sure there were black people at the time who weren't supportive of the end of slavery. I say that to make a single point. I think it is important to know the ideological lay of the land. If most women are mad about something, I'm not going to point to the minority of women not mad and say "see I'm right.". I'm a man. I would never berate a woman for whatever her thoughts are about feminism or feminist issues. However, having spoken to a lot of women and followed the arguments pretty closely, I would feel comfortable thinking that a woman who looks at all the "Me Too" stuff and sees no big deal in it, is wrong. I feel like most allies of movements tend to do the same thing, and I cannot really remember a moment where loads of males were outraged about a feminist thing and most females seemed to not care.

I do, however, agree, that a lot of conversation on this forum used to lean towards trying to get someone banned as opposed to actually discussing things with them.

 

[JP]

I think there are always going to be issues when any group of individuals are generalised as having a single point of view or as being the same, it shouldn't be surprising that classifying an entire group of different individuals as "annoying" that many of the people that you've reduced in such a trite way may find you less than accommodating.

If you have issues with the "old trans community" then surely asking the "old trans community" would be the best way to proceed with your issue? Anything that's happened in past here is surely not what the new site is about, particularly if we can all drag up old issues when we feel the need to do so.

 

[Vicetrailia]

Unhinged and disconnected? You need to qualify that.

Maybe you need to learn from a trans person on this forum where they agree too.

 

[Hissing Sid]

Was the trans community militant or did certain peeps with axes to grind weaponise trans issues in order to sharpen said axes?

I suspect it was the latter. You’d quite often see the same old names using race, gender, sexuality and so on, basically as interchangeable ammunition to expend in firefights when bolstering their own political agenda.

So I don’t think the transgender ‘community’ in general was militant at all.

I would’nt go out of my way to criticise the OP because I don’t think there’s any malign intent in making this thread. I do however think that the thread title could have been phrased differently because as it stands, it is by no means readily apparent that the old Gaf trans community were indeed militant in the first place.

 

[Mahadev]

One of the many reasons I had stopped visiting here was because of what MontyBrown described about being annoyed at the trans community but it goes deeper than that. When you constantly witness these groups acting like assholes and bullies eventually you start developing a false narrative inside your brain that these people are actually the aggressors not the people who usually need our help. It's a feeling you can't shake off no matter what, you lose compassion for them and eventually you start becoming an asshole yourself.

I cut it out before it came to acting like an asshole but I have enough self awareness to know this shit was creeping in. The problem with the trans community is that many of them have allied with authoritarian identity politics bullies and honestly it's the last fucking thing a disadvantaged community should be doing. You can't win society by force, you win them by explaining your problems to them, you win them by exposing who are the true assholes in this situation. And before it is misinterpreted, no I'm not saying be passive, I'm saying fucking engage people in debate and actually communicate your problems to them instead of accusing them of all kind of bullshit and shutting them down.

Hell, even the mental illness clusterfuck is pointless if you engage in debate about it. If you ask most people who insist it's a mental illness what should be done about it they can't really answer, they just use it as a prop to have endless fights with the other side, and the liberal side isn't any better, they're not interested in actually debating and explaining their pov (mostly because just like conservatives they can't, the bubbles both sides have build have made them weak), they're only interested in putting down the other side. OK fine whatever, it's a mental illness, it's an illness you can't solve with drugs or with therapy sessions, the brain truly believes they are the other sex. So have you developed a miracle cure that can solve this? No? So the only solution is surgery, right? OK so why are you spending so much time bitching about this? Is there even a point to this?

I've had this discussion with relatively moderate conservatives including Trump supporters a million times and most come to the same conclusion. There are of course the hateful pricks that you can't change their opinion on it no matter what and will say something truly obnoxious like put them in a hospital or some shit so you can't win them all but for the love of God can we at least try instead of engaging in what is essentially a pointless pissing contest?

 

[Musky_Cheese]

That was just Old Gaf. For any social issue. Trans Gaf wasn’t causing that. Gaf was.

Many people (here or just in general) don’t seem to know how to support a person or group of people without dropping support of another group.

Supporting women shouldn’t mean hating men for example.

The idea that every where a person walks, can see with their eyes, and hear with their ears should be their “safe space” is ludicrous. And simply impossible.

The creation of that safe space will conflict with someone else’s inevitably. Tolerance is certainly achievable (exceptions obviously), but if acceptance is the goal... there’s gonna be disappointment.

My wife tolerates me playing games. She doesn’t have to love it... and she doesn’t love it.

The struggles and issues the trans community deals with should not be accepted or tolerated. We as people shouldn’t give up the fight for everyone to be treated correctly. But it shouldn’t be done by simply being hypocrites with our treatment of the opposition.

 

[Bill O'Rights]

Obviously this will be a touchy subject so is being watched. Also, the premise of the thread exists on the fact that the old community was aligned to militancy. Which is obviously not the case. There were/are no doubt voices unaccounted for, that are/were unhappy with the representation they were getting. The more deep rooted problem was not being able to interject and make a contrary point as Relativ9 points out, despite belonging to the LGBT community themselves.


I think the more pertinent question to ask in this thread (to the actual demograph involved) is do they feel they were misrepresented? Do they feel that the tendency of LGBT to get dragged into more trivial topics actually harmed/trivialised the wider cause?


On a wider point, the culmination of what happened was not down to any one demographic, it was the result of a few years of mismanaged moderation, lack of engagement and allowing threads to become pages of who could have the most outrageous reaction. The irony was the disdain someone like 'Angry Joe' got, when every thread was full of 'Angry GAF member 9425'. We cultivated a community where outrage guided the topic instead of sense.


I'd like to think GAF and video games in general attract a sizeable transgender community because in reality it makes no difference to the hobby or enjoyment that people derive. The ability to cultivate a digital identity, in a place of refuge and acceptance should be a good thing. However in collectives of people struggling to distinguish their identity, people will focus on what makes them different causing labelling and in extreme cases schisms and division; by both sides incidentally.


Every group needs a platform to make their voices heard. That is the purpose of equality. Perhaps as videogame enthusiasts we should ask why the loudest outlet these people have is via vloggers, amateur creators and dedicated forums? It creates a perfect storm of misrepresentation, over-representation and finally frustration. And we all feel the sting. Ideally moving forward these will be things of the past as common sense prevails.

 

[Moneal]

I also don't think it was the trans community, but a subset of GAF in all social issues. It didn't matter if it was a trans subject or a womens subject or a black people subject, it was mostly the same posters in those threads shouting down any counter arguments. Some of them were probably trans and some were probably not.

 

[entremet]

Obviously this will be a touchy subject so is being watched. Also, the premise of the thread exists on the fact that the old community was aligned to militancy. Which is obviously not the case. There were/are no doubt voices unaccounted for, that are/were unhappy with the representation they were getting. The more deep rooted problem was not being able to interject and make a contrary point as Relativ9 points out, despite belonging to the LGBT community themselves.


I think the more pertinent question to ask in this thread (to the actual demograph involved) is do they feel they were misrepresented? Do they feel that the tendency of LGBT to get dragged into more trivial topics actually harmed/trivialised the wider cause?


On a wider point, the culmination of what happened was not down to any one demographic, it was the result of a few years of mismanaged moderation, lack of engagement and allowing threads to become pages of who could have the most outrageous reaction. The irony was the disdain someone like 'Angry Joe' got, when every thread was full of 'Angry GAF member 9425'. We cultivated a community where outrage guided the topic instead of sense.


I'd like to think GAF and video games in general attract a sizeable transgender community because in reality it makes no difference to the hobby or enjoyment that people derive. The ability to cultivate a digital identity, in a place of refuge and acceptance should be a good thing. However in collectives of people struggling to distinguish their identity, people will focus on what makes them different causing labelling and in extreme cases schisms and division; by both sides incidentally.


Every group needs a platform to make their voices heard. That is the purpose of equality. Perhaps as videogame enthusiasts we should ask why the loudest outlet these people have is via vloggers, amateur creators and dedicated forums? It creates a perfect storm of misrepresentation, over-representation and finally frustration. And we all feel the sting. Ideally moving forward these will be things of the past as common sense prevails.

Great post. I'm glad that GAF is back on track after the recent events.

Regarding militancy, I just don't think the internet is the best medium for sensitive topics. Not to mention that the trans community is one of the more marginalized. Given that marginalization, you will have folks from that community more ardent to defend themselves. I think a little more empathy to that fact is needed. The perceived anger or militancy you may see can be due to decades of societal discrimination.

It's why it's better to respond with compassion and trust than speculation. Respond with care, not with violence. Violence in terms of argumentation, not literal violence, of course. That said, I don't know how viable the internet is for these type of nuanced conversations. They're even hard to moderate on Reset as I've noticed.

 

[Mahadev]

I had left Gaf behind for a good year or so before everything happened, because of the state of things, just too frustrating to debate in there. But I lurked once in a while and made the odd post or two still in that time. So take what I say with a pinch of salt.

But I got the impression that it wasn't at all the trans community that were so up in arms about perceived slights against their community or members of it, rather it was a sort of activist hivemind that got really upset at every little thing that even approached a more nuanced view of trans issues. I don't remember which thread it was in (perhaps someone knows which one I'm talking about?), but I remember seeing one GAF member lay into another (Catholic) GAF member for basically being a transphobic Satan-Hitler saying he was human scum and so forth. When an actual trans person came to the guy's defense and said he respected his right to stand by his beliefs. The trans person was accused of being the first person's fake account and dogpiled. From what I remember there was absolutely no evidence for this or even reasonable reason to believe it.

Was it shidoshi? I remember these groups hating shidoshi with the force of a thousand suns because she's trans and had the audacity to not toe the line. She was pretty much considered a traitor because she wanted to debate rationally and was willing to discuss with anyone. What happened to her? I hope she comes back now that the forum is much, much better.

 

[Rocket Number 22]

I have spent a good part of today think how I would give my opinion on this subject, if i'm honest the LGBT community thread is what made me want to join gaf and I was approved during the whole mess of the exodus away from here.

A little background about me and how i came to formulate my opinions

I would fall into the "trans" category, i was born male but am now female. I almost never refer to myself as trans, transitioning was something i did to become female. I don't want or need the trans label, all i want is to be a female.

I grew up in Sydney with regular trips to my mothers home country of Thailand (lol yup im a hapa ladyboy....a walking sterotype right there) So my experience is purely based on mostly accepting in Australia and very accepting Thailand.

I believe and the people within the circles I run in, that their is two genders and three orientations, male, female, gay, straight and bi.

The problem is trans people DO run in their own circles and it's not all roses in the LGBT, many don't think the B or T fit into the definition. So what happens is you get cliques within cliques....and they become extremely defensive of their clique.

And here is where my experience with MtF and their partners clashes with the ideology of many of those who left.

Wearing a dress doesnt make you woman. If you don't live as a woman full time or act like a woman full time you are just...a man in a dress. I have stated before that i think many of these "trans" or pansexual, asexual or robosexual people are just band wagon jumpers....this generations metro sexual if you will.

And i think thats were the venom comes from, these people are so caught up in their own clique and uniqueness they refuse to budge. Hence the aggression when anyone questions them because they forget they are in their own like minded bubble.

I have seen a MtF on that other site banned for making very similar statements that i just made. And its depressing

At least in my experience, we who transition don't want to be something special, we don't want everyone to bow to us and call us xir or zshe or whatever. We just want to be women.

I don't want to be trans, i just want to be Maria

 

[Musky_Cheese]

I have spent a good part of today think how I would give my opinion on this subject, if i'm honest the LGBT community thread is what made me want to join gaf and I was approved during the whole mess of the exodus away from here.

A little background about me and how i came to formulate my opinions

I would fall into the "trans" category, i was born male but am now female. I almost never refer to myself as trans, transitioning was something i did to become female. I don't want or need the trans label, all i want is to be a female.

I grew up in Sydney with regular trips to my mothers home country of Thailand (lol yup im a hapa ladyboy....a walking sterotype right there) So my experience is purely based on mostly accepting in Australia and very accepting Thailand.

I believe and the people within the circles I run in, that their is two genders and three orientations, male, female, gay, straight and bi.

The problem is trans people DO run in their own circles and it's not all roses in the LGBT, many don't think the B or T fit into the definition. So what happens is you get cliques within cliques....and they become extremely defensive of their clique.

And here is where my experience with MtF and their partners clashes with the ideology of many of those who left.

Wearing a dress doesnt make you woman. If you don't live as a woman full time or act like a woman full time you are just...a man in a dress. I have stated before that i think many of these "trans" or pansexual, asexual or robosexual people are just band wagon jumpers....this generations metro sexual if you will.

And i think thats were the venom comes from, these people are so caught up in their own clique and uniqueness they refuse to budge. Hence the aggression when anyone questions them because they forget they are in their own like minded bubble.

I have seen a MtF on that other site banned for making very similar statements that i just made. And its depressing

At least in my experience, we who transition don't want to be something special, we don't want everyone to bow to us and call us xir or zshe or whatever. We just want to be women.

I don't want to be trans, i just want to be Maria

Thank you for your post.

 

[Rocket Number 22]

Thank you for your post.

Np at all, i'm open to questions if anyone has them but it will be from my own perspective, generalizing the "trans" community if you will

 

[Super Mario]

Militant trans community? This place was a leftist military base. The hivemind attacked anyone that had anything to say other than all leftist points were brilliant. That community was so well protected and preserved, that they didn't know anything else. Any conservative view was immediately ridiculed as bigoted and they were quickly banned.

Then, it all collapsed under its own ideals.

 

[DarkestHour]

Militant trans community? This place was a leftist military base. The hivemind attacked anyone that had anything to say other than all leftist points were brilliant. That community was so well protected and preserved, that they didn't know anything else. Any conservative view was immediately ridiculed as bigoted and they were quickly banned.

Then, it all collapsed under its own ideals.

It is just as bad now on the new site. As long as you avoid the off-topic section it's not so bad.

 

[OrionFalls]

Militant trans community? This place was a leftist military base. The hivemind attacked anyone that had anything to say other than all leftist points were brilliant. That community was so well protected and preserved, that they didn't know anything else. Any conservative view was immediately ridiculed as bigoted and they were quickly banned.

Then, it all collapsed under its own ideals.

Mainly because any conservative view was attaching the trans community. The LGBTQ+ community deserves protection from that kind of ideology. Or are you saying they don’t deserve protection?

 

[oxrock]

Trans people have a lot to deal with in their lives. Neogaf has been an online sanctuary of sorts for a long time because it's been one of the few places where it wasn't tolerated to treat them poorly simply for being themselves. I'm not sure where the militant trans association is coming from exactly. There was certainly some hive mind extremism going on but I don't think it was limited to them in any way. Also saying "this is not an anti trans thread" after stating that you find them downright annoying all while saying nothing but negative things about them doesn't somehow absolve your post of it's obvious anti trans sentiment. Your post has a lot of similarities to the guy who obviously can't be racist because he had a black friend in college.

 

[Battlechili]

Neogaf and now the offshoot site both had (well, the offshoot site still has this) a militant community in general. Not specifically the trans community; the site in general was just really hardcore about such things.
However, with regards specifically to the trans community (and not just trans people, but rather just a lot of posters on GAF), I think a great deal of effort was put in to try and make sure they aren't made uncomfortable by anything people said due to the fact that they're such a small group, even amongst minorities. Please note that I am not trans nor do I mean to speak for those that are, and if you are trans and I say something wrong or hurtful, please correct me. But from my understanding, if nobody said anything or put up a serious effort to make trans people feel comfortable and/or welcome, their voices might wind up being overshadowed by everyone else, and so people might wind up saying and speaking genuinely and very hurtful things without any repercussions or even thought that maybe what people were saying was hurtful towards them. That there was an effort to try and ensure that their voices were heard, and in order to do so and in order to make them feel welcome, there was a greater effort to ensure nobody said anything that could be potentially construed as hurtful. At least, this is what I think the view people had that led to such a "militant community" so to speak. But I don't think it was specifically the trans community. Its just, if we're talking specifically about them, this was the reason.

 

[AgentP]

I remember the old days, any question or disagreement lead to a ban, so the mods were part of the problem. Anytime I see the equivalent of "You don't 100% agree with me? You are racist/phobic!" and it makes me roll my eyes. Like the OP, I am a lifetime liberal, but the militant side of those discussions is so far to the left, they fell off a cliff and accuse anyone more moderate of being Nazis.

 

[Guiberu]

I have spent a good part of today think how I would give my opinion on this subject, if i'm honest the LGBT community thread is what made me want to join gaf and I was approved during the whole mess of the exodus away from here.

A little background about me and how i came to formulate my opinions

I would fall into the "trans" category, i was born male but am now female. I almost never refer to myself as trans, transitioning was something i did to become female. I don't want or need the trans label, all i want is to be a female.

I grew up in Sydney with regular trips to my mothers home country of Thailand (lol yup im a hapa ladyboy....a walking sterotype right there) So my experience is purely based on mostly accepting in Australia and very accepting Thailand.

I believe and the people within the circles I run in, that their is two genders and three orientations, male, female, gay, straight and bi.

The problem is trans people DO run in their own circles and it's not all roses in the LGBT, many don't think the B or T fit into the definition. So what happens is you get cliques within cliques....and they become extremely defensive of their clique.

And here is where my experience with MtF and their partners clashes with the ideology of many of those who left.

Wearing a dress doesnt make you woman. If you don't live as a woman full time or act like a woman full time you are just...a man in a dress. I have stated before that i think many of these "trans" or pansexual, asexual or robosexual people are just band wagon jumpers....this generations metro sexual if you will.

And i think thats were the venom comes from, these people are so caught up in their own clique and uniqueness they refuse to budge. Hence the aggression when anyone questions them because they forget they are in their own like minded bubble.

I have seen a MtF on that other site banned for making very similar statements that i just made. And its depressing

At least in my experience, we who transition don't want to be something special, we don't want everyone to bow to us and call us xir or zshe or whatever. We just want to be women.

I don't want to be trans, i just want to be Maria

Legitimately the best, most logical post I've ever seen on the subject.

Well fucking done. Seriously. You should be proud of yourself, and your capacity to comprehend both yourself, and the world around you.

 

[Guiberu]

Trans people have a lot to deal with in their lives. Neogaf has been an online sanctuary of sorts for a long time because it's been one of the few places where it wasn't tolerated to treat them poorly simply for being themselves. I'm not sure where the militant trans association is coming from exactly. There was certainly some hive mind extremism going on but I don't think it was limited to them in any way. Also saying "this is not an anti trans thread" after stating that you find them downright annoying all while saying nothing but negative things about them doesn't somehow absolve your post of it's obvious anti trans sentiment. Your post has a lot of similarities to the guy who obviously can't be racist because he had a black friend in college.

Everyone has a lot to deal with in their lives.

The game of life is about being able to separate those hardships, from how you project back out onto the world.

The OP was referring specifically to the trans culture of the old Gaf, not the trans community or culture in general. Context is key.

The old Gaf trans community was annoying, militant, and completely closed off from alternate perspectives, or questions. Equally, that can be said for more or less every community on the forum, at that time.

I'm quite sure that many people would agree, if you're a dick - you're a dick. I don't care what colour your skin is, what your sexual preferences are, or what your gender is. There's no need to be aggressive, or refuse to acknowledge the opinions, views, or queries of others.

 

[EviLore]

My original intent was just to be running the site as I would a social space in real life. Most of us can get along with people of whatever sex, whatever orientation, whatever ethnicity, and whatever politics without going off the rails, so why can't it be like that on the internet too? I'm a pretty laid back person who can get along with nearly anyone and who wants to engage with diverse viewpoints.

Regarding trans issues, I recognized that trans people have it really hard in society and I paid extra attention to attempting to shape an environment where they could be comfortable being themselves, since those environments are few and far between. I was happy to see a trans-gaf subcommunity form over time and the community trend toward better understanding of trans issues such that they'd be far more respectful by default than you'd typically see.

That being said, my own views on how an internet forum should be run trend toward not giving a damn what anyone claims to be in terms of identity, just the content of what they have to say and the evidence supporting it. I'm not anonymous, and some other people here aren't, but most personas are formed freely on the internet and when you can become a "protected class" and wield power by announcing that you're a person of color or a woman or trans or whatever it may be, that's going to be taken advantage of on a platform like this. And it was. I never wanted that outcome. I just wanted everyone to be able to come on here and not deal with what I felt was a massive dissonance between how we typically engage with each other on the internet vs how we do IRL.

What the OP describes wasn't really specific to the trans community here. Every identity of person seemed to trend toward hostile tribalism over time, a huge rift formed between community and moderation, individual mods had their own agendas they were furthering, and I failed to course correct it all. Eventually nothing was "progressive enough" and I became the enemy to a subset of the trans community here as well as a subset of every minority community here. I took that all in and tried to navigate it, tried to understand people's positions, but nothing was good enough and a ton of people lashed out at me any time I said anything eventually.

Honestly, I was completely miserable every moment I was on GAF in 2017. I tried to turn things around, but I was dealing with rough personal issues all year and was only just starting to pull myself out of that when I got #metooed (falsely) out of nowhere. It was overwhelming and scary. It got mainstream media attention. The community had become a powderkeg of polarized, authoritarian left hostility that seemed to revel in setting this place on fire from within and throw me onto a pyre the moment they found out about that BS allegation, and almost all the mods immediately bailed, we got DDoSed for like two straight days, and by the time we were back up we barely had any mod coverage and I was deeply hurt by what the community was saying about me and could barely engage with it. Then I had to step back and take care of important personal concerns, so it took some time to figure out where to take the site from there.

Anyway, don't blame the trans community here. Blame me. Everything that happened, at least, eventually became an opportunity to actually course correct this place like I couldn't when it was at its peak, so that we'd be able to actually talk about things again, and use this place for escapism from the shitty real world, too, rather than some insane asylum where you're driven out for "normalizing!!11" if you don't hate everything and want to die.

I think Rocket Number 22 sets a great example by being willing to talk about her identity and demanding a baseline of respect we all should have for each other, but not constantly relying on "as a trans woman....." at the start of each sentence in an argument. We all have an identity, we all have our struggles, we can all respect each other. Let's do it without creating a swirling miasma of bitter hostility in a game of oppression olympics where there's one correct thing to say and we all hate each other for the privileges we see on the other side of the screen. And let's be cool with our trans gaffers too.

Thanks.

 

[Dunki]

Mainly because any conservative view was attaching the trans community. The LGBTQ+ community deserves protection from that kind of ideology. Or are you saying they don’t deserve protection?

personally I think they deserve as much as protection as everyone else. For me the basic principle of equality is to treat everyone the same. Trying to establish special laws/rules in society will only create more "stigmatization, the perception of a group being fraigle etc. As for militant trans groups I think there was a really nice example in the last days.

Women's March: Pink Pussyhat "exclusionary towards transfolk/PoC"

https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/pink-pussyhat-creator-addresses-criticism-over-name-n717886

This is how identity politics is eating themselves IMO. People on Twitter and co even called these Pussyhat(which are fucking stupid) even racist and transophobic.

 

[Nintendo Switch]

As almost everyone here has pointed out OP., your views on transpeople is close minded and inconsiderate. But it's not because you are a hateful bigot, it's because of social conditioning that you feel this way. It comes from a place of misinformation, not hate. The old gaf and the new site would have instantly personally attacked you and banned you without engaging with you to try to explain why your views on transgender people are incorrect, because the old gaf and the new site was not run by liberals that have an open mind and empathy but was instead run by close minded militants that resort to name calling. And it got this way over time due to the below reason.

Gamers tend to tilt left. I lean very left but I disliked what happened, because I always felt people having the freedom to express their views, as long as they are not hateful, is important.

The issue was the rampant bans. People who expressed nonleft views points or defended conservatives were first attacked by many liberal posters and then when they tried to explain their perspective were outright banned. This pushed the forum even more left. Then people that expressed views that didn't confirm to this lefter ideology were again dogpiled on then banned. With each banning the forum became more and more of a far left bubble where anyone outside the bubble was either banned or afraid to post their perspective.

And anyone that pointed out there is a bubble now we're again dogpiled on then banned.

The same thing will happen to the new site and with each round of bans there, more and more people will switch back to this site.

Right wing bubbles are a far bigger issue and they do more harm and become more hateful and racist over time, but gafs previous status as a far left wing bubble where differing views even if they were not hateful were completely unwelcome and piled on then got people banned was not a good thing either.

 

[OrionFalls]

Personally I think they deserve as much as protection as everyone else. For me, the basic principle of equality is to treat everyone the same. Trying to establish special laws/rules in society will only create more "stigmatization, the perception of a group being fragile etc. As for militant trans groups, I think there was a really nice example in the last days.

Your everyday white, straight male is not subjected to the level of hate that a trans person would get. So, no, your statement is wrong. I, as a white straight male, do not need protection. A trans person, who is subject to vile attacks on a daily basis purely because they are who they are, does need protection. The whole equality argument does not fly here.

 

[Lupingosei]

Your everyday white, straight male is not subjected to the level of hate that a trans person would get. So, no, your statement is wrong. I, as a white straight male, do not need protection. A trans person, who is subject to vile attacks on a daily basis purely because they are who they are, does need protection. The whole equality argument does not fly here.

I really don't want to derail this, but exactly those vast generalizations are what started all of it. Next to transgender people straight white male have one of the highest suicide rate and also the highest drug consumption rate now. If you are a happy well educated financial independent straight white male this may be true, but that is not the majority of people. Why are we back to these generalizations? People need protection if they need protection not because they are members of a certain group.