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[Spuck-uk]

I don't post here any more, so I'm just going to say OP is transphobic as fuck, and saying 'I'm not transphobic' when you obviously are, is a pathetic shield.

Oh, and go fuck yourself.

EDIT by Dienekes: ban for one month for inappropriate comments. This is not the way to have a civil discussion on a difficult subject and only leads to more insulting and topic implosion.

 

[Rocket Number 22]

I don't post here any more, so I'm just going to say OP is transphobic as fuck, and saying 'I'm not transphobic' when you obviously are, is a pathetic shield.

Oh, and go fuck yourself.

Yet you can't articulate your position without buzz and swearwords...

Why not ask questions WHY before you throw mud?

 

[A Link to the Past]

The issue is that you are presupposing that feminism is defined by not caring about men's issues, which I find is not the case.

With that being said, your latter sentence I find to be quite off. Laws only work, as I've said, if they are effective. And what do you call trans bathroom laws? Or trying to ban trans people from the military? How about the fact that same-sex marriage is still something people are worried about going? Or that only 18 years ago, same-sex relations was illegal? The fact that the government says to not do something doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

 

[Nester99]

I don't post here any more, so I'm just going to say OP is transphobic as fuck, and saying 'I'm not transphobic' when you obviously are, is a pathetic shield.

Oh, and go fuck yourself.

Are you an anti trans troll or do you lack the understanding to see you proving the op right?

 

[lifa-cobex]

I don't post here any more, so I'm just going to say OP is transphobic as fuck, and saying 'I'm not transphobic' when you obviously are, is a pathetic shield.

Oh, and go fuck yourself.

cool story bro

 

[Nintendo Switch]

Are you an anti trans troll or do you lack the understanding to see you proving the op right?

No, the OP is in fact transphobic. He is somewhat close minded to the idea of gender identity the same way many were to the idea of homosexuality a generation again.

But spuck-uk is likewise close minded to the OPs perspective and attacking him rather than trying to engage with him and educating him shows the kind of lack of empathy that suggests to me that he is a liberal in name only. In that way, he is doing harm to the Trans movement by not being willing to engage and instead resorting to name calling and personal attacks.

A real liberal would be considerate of the fact that people have different perspectives, views and biases and would try to engage with them and educate them rather than attacking them and asking for them to be banned.

Liberals do not believe in thought policing, or name calling. They believe in trying to understand other people's perspectives, open conversation and discourse.

When the rest of the world saw homosexuality as a mental illness and transgender people as perverts, it was conservatives that resorted to name calling and thought policing and liberals that tried to empathize with people with a different perspective and lifestyle and stood alongside and advocated for them.

Yes, Militant liberals share liberal policies but they absolutely do not share liberal ideals. They are loud and abuse any power they get to banning people and stop conversation and thus they can quickly turn a forum like this one into a bubble. And in doing so, they do far more damage to the liberal causes than conservatives could ever hope to because they actively push people away from liberal ideology.

Militant leftists are not liberals, just the opposite, Militant liberals that deny the right to privacy and that belive in labeling and banning people share their political philosophy with the ideals of fascism, the same as Militant conservatives. Real liberals need to switch to distancing themselves from the authorian left.

 

[Dunki]

The issue is that you are presupposing that feminism is defined by not caring about men's issues, which I find is not the case.

With that being said, your latter sentence I find to be quite off. Laws only work, as I've said, if they are effective. And what do you call trans bathroom laws? Or trying to ban trans people from the military? How about the fact that same-sex marriage is still something people are worried about going? Or that only 18 years ago, same-sex relations was illegal? The fact that the government says to not do something doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

let me correct it and say Modern feminism. I am still a supporter of 2nd wave feminism

As for your points I agree that there are still points not covered by laws and this is why I would support minorities. For stuff like hiring processes etc this is not the case anymore. For discrimination or threats this is not the case anymore. Problems is I agree that these laws needs to be used more often and again for everyone.

MY personal opinions solutions on the topics:

Unisex bath and locker rooms starting in elementary school to show that its natural (For shy people some extra stalls)
Same sex marriage of course yes why should anyone even care who you want to marry.
Trans people in Army yes but they also should not get special treatment. ( extra rooms etc)

Again it is not perfect yet and these points are great to fight for. To call the women's march unsafe because not every women has a vagina is not. Also there are things that has to be also considered by trans people to impossible. Best example for me would be prof sport since you also would have often a huge advantage in physical sports. Trans people need to accept just like everyone else that not everything you want to do is possible in Life. You have to set priorities and sports would be such a case IMO.

The Women’s March was ‘made unsafe’ by TERFs’ transphobic signs and pussy hats

 

[Relativ9]

I think the issue I see with laws specifically trying to give extra protection to any particular group, isn't necessarily just the argument that it effectively devalues other groups not included in the extra protection (which it does). My problem here is that very rarely (if ever?) are laws giving special protections to anyone taken away. What happens when (hopefully) in 100 years all phobia against women, trans, gays, bi, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc, is all but annihilated only existing (even more) on the outer fringes of civilized society? Are we going to remove these laws? Right now, if a politician in Norway argues against gender quotas in private companies he is either driven out of his party, forced to tow the party line, or forced to ally himself with the far right, which might not suit any of his other beliefs. What mechanism do we have to remove these group identity-based privileges?

I can accept that yes, by en-large white straight men have it easier than any other group in most if not all areas of social life, and employment. And yes when it comes to identifying groups who are particularly vulnerable to persecution, bullying, discrimination and harassment, the trans community probably ranks pretty high. But the solution to this isn't to treat them as "over-citizens" in the eyes of the law, the solutions are to use the already existing anti-prosecution, anti-bullying anti-discrimination and anti-harassment laws we have to emphasise and target these areas to actually go after the people perpetrating these crimes. I'd even support setting aside extra money in governmental budgets specifically for this purpose, that way you give these vulnerable groups the attention warranted, while it's warranted. But you don't elevate them as higher or make the crimes against them "worth more". For the record, this is the same way I feel about punishing murderers extra harshly for murdering an officer of the law. It's just not ethical, and what is government if not a reflection of our ethical beliefs?

 

[Sinfamy]

Not on topic exactly, but BishopTL banned me for 6 or 9 months once for saying that having a skin color, racial or ethnic preference when it comes to dating is not racist (unless it comes from a place of actual prejudice or hatred) and that focusing on the issue of race in the context of dating takes away from actual issues and examples of racism.

Felt that was essentially thought policing, especially for what I saw as a completely uncontroversial and benign comment.

 

[Blam]

So mods have said that we can now talk a bit more freely on GAF, which is great.

If you're trans and still posting here, I'd like to know your opinions on having (seemingly) unhinged and disconnected people try to represent you. Did you ever want to speak out against a lot of the madness?

Just read over it again and I missed this. Really? Come on, can you really say you truly interacted with TransGAF/LGBTQIA+ if you're gonna just go and blanket call them all unhinged, and disconnected. That's beyond insane to think, and seriously rude as fuck.

I don't actually know where you're coming to the conclusion that we were unhinged, and disconnected. The people I interacted with and the people I talked to. Not even close to ever being like that.

Prefacing your entire post with now that we can talk a bit more freely is more like. "Hey now that I can say something that would have previously got me permabanned. Let me just slander the previous community so the new one understands that they aren't special here."

 

[A Link to the Past]

"I'm down with second-wave feminism" never really works for me because back when second-wave feminism was the 'thing', there was a lot of mindsets that ask "why don't second-wave feminists behave like Suffragettes?" And for that, people ask why women don't just settle down and accept their lot in life. You go back to each generation of women's rights, and a common narrative is to compare them negatively to the generation previously.

Also, discrimination is absolutely an issue. Trans people's rights are frequently under attack, and killings of LGBT people in 2017 is twice as much as it was in 2016 (the focus being on individual killings).

As far as sports, it's not really an issue for many trans people involved in it. Also, it is disputable that it's purely about fairness when we see trans men being excluded in a similar fashion.

 

[Dunki]

Not on topic exactly, but BishopTL banned me for 6 or 9 months once for saying that having a skin color, racial or ethnic preference when it comes to dating is not racist (unless it comes from a place of actual prejudice or hatred) and that focusing on the issue of race in the context of dating takes away from actual issues and examples of racism.

Felt that was essentially thought policing, especially for what I saw as a completely uncontroversial and benign comment.

reminds me of this
When You Say “I Would Never Date A Trans Person,” It’s Transphobic. Here’s Why.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

I don't post here any more, so I'm just going to say OP is transphobic as fuck, and saying 'I'm not transphobic' when you obviously are, is a pathetic shield.

Oh, and go fuck yourself.

Old Gaf right there. Wave as they drive by. Shame you can’t debate a topic like an adult.

People have mentioned the down activity, but is current activity better than the 20X activity filled with mostly nothing posts like this one? I’d say so.

 

[EviLore]

Just read over it again and I missed this. Really? Come on, can you really say you truly interacted with TransGAF/LGBTQIA+ if you're gonna just go and blanket call them all unhinged, and disconnected. That's beyond insane to think, and seriously rude as fuck.

I don't actually know where you're coming to the conclusion that we were unhinged, and disconnected. The people I interacted with and the people I talked to. Not even close to ever being like that.

Prefacing your entire post with now that we can talk a bit more freely is more like. "Hey now that I can say something that would have previously got me permabanned. Let me just slander the previous community so the new one understands that they aren't special here."

Oh, the OP was definitely written in bad faith and is totally asinine. Sorry about that; I left it open because I figured it was still an opportunity for off-topic to engage and hash some things out, and I think it's had some value in that regard even if it frames the discussion poorly. It's important that we actually talk to each other again and work through these difficult subjects.

 

[pramod]

As far as attraction to people with penises goes, you’re right that there’s no way to force attraction to someone, and I certainly don’t advocate for having sex with anyone you don’t want to have sex with. If you decide you don’t want to date anyone who has a penis, that’s too personal of a choice for me to give direction on, but I also think it’s valuable to think about where that lack of desire for someone with a penis comes from, and whether it reflects social assumptions that everyone with a penis must be a man, and therefore rooted in internalized homophobia.

 

[Battlechili]

we got DDoSed for like two straight days

Wait, that was a DDos attack?
I thought this site was just under unusually heavy trafic because of the controversy. Kinda sad someone would do that.

 

[Blam]

Oh, the OP was definitely written in bad faith and is totally asinine. Sorry about that; I left it open because I figured it was still an opportunity for off-topic to engage and hash some things out, and I think it's had some value in that regard even if it frames the discussion poorly. It's important that we actually talk to each other again and work through these difficult subjects.

No worries, I know obviously the original intent of the post wasn't gonna be fully edited. I'd love for discussion like this to happen more, it builds the community up even if it is negative.

Honestly, I was completely miserable every moment I was on GAF in 2017. I tried to turn things around, but I was dealing with rough personal issues all year and was only just starting to pull myself out of that when I got #metooed (falsely) out of nowhere. It was overwhelming and scary. It got mainstream media attention. The community had become a powderkeg of polarized, authoritarian left hostility that seemed to revel in setting this place on fire from within and throw me onto a pyre the moment they found out about that BS allegation, and almost all the mods immediately bailed, we got DDoSed for like two straight days, and by the time we were back up we barely had any mod coverage and I was deeply hurt by what the community was saying about me and could barely engage with it. Then I had to step back and take care of important personal concerns, so it took some time to figure out where to take the site from there.

Damn I had only wondered how you were feeling the entire time during it all. Sorta a shock to know the site was being ddosed, and spammed by shitty members for the sake of "BURN IT DOWN."

I remember around that time they shunned literally all of those members, but made no effort to stop them. But hey that's just my 2 cents on that matter. And yeah you were being slandered by just nearly everyone for something that seemingly had nothing backing it, and had holes throughout the entire thing. Which later turned out to be false.

I'm happy You and GAF pulled through since I honestly don't know where I'd have went if GAF was shut down.

 

[Zog]

Your everyday white, straight male is not subjected to the level of hate that a trans person would get. So, no, your statement is wrong. I, as a white straight male, do not need protection. A trans person, who is subject to vile attacks on a daily basis purely because they are who they are, does need protection. The whole equality argument does not fly here.

Projecting? Do you feel guilty because you treat people better or worse based on their gender, race or sexual orientation?

 

[Nintendo Switch]

Not on topic exactly, but BishopTL banned me for 6 or 9 months once for saying that having a skin color, racial or ethnic preference when it comes to dating is not racist (unless it comes from a place of actual prejudice or hatred) and that focusing on the issue of race in the context of dating takes away from actual issues and examples of racism.

Felt that was essentially thought policing, especially for what I saw as a completely uncontroversial and benign comment.

Exactly. Not all biases are racist. Racism comes from a place of hate and resentment. Bias is a product of societal conditioning, and it can be reversed with engagement and education. Conflating bias with hatred doesn't do anyone any good.

And it's also extremely dishonest because there is not a single person on the planet that can honestly claim to be free of biases. Lets switch back to being more open to alternate ideas.

 

[MontyBrown]

Oh, the OP was definitely written in bad faith and is totally asinine. Sorry about that; I left it open because I figured it was still an opportunity for off-topic to engage and hash some things out, and I think it's had some value in that regard even if it frames the discussion poorly. It's important that we actually talk to each other again and work through these difficult subjects.

How was it 'bad faith' and 'asinine'?

It was frank and honest. I always wanted to talk about it before, but couldn't, and now we can.

 

[OrionFalls]

Projecting? Do you feel guilty because you treat people better or worse based on their gender, race or sexual orientation?

No, but I recognise when certain groups of people are being targeted because of who they are, and go out of my way to protect that group.

 

[Dunki]

"I'm down with second-wave feminism" never really works for me because back when second-wave feminism was the 'thing', there was a lot of mindsets that ask "why don't second-wave feminists behave like Suffragettes?" And for that, people ask why women don't just settle down and accept their lot in life. You go back to each generation of women's rights, and a common narrative is to compare them negatively to the generation previously.

Also, discrimination is absolutely an issue. Trans people's rights are frequently under attack, and killings of LGBT people in 2017 is twice as much as it was in 2016 (the focus being on individual killings).

As far as sports, it's not really an issue for many trans people involved in it. Also, it is disputable that it's purely about fairness when we see trans men being excluded in a similar fashion.

To me moderns femininsm does not go for equality but rather "superiority" and to bring the other ones dones. I had one example in the #metoo thread in which journalists of the teenvogue and leader in some feminsim organisations argued that they are totally fine if innocent men also get accused because of basically patriarchy. They also told women if they were pregnant with a white male boy they should consider to abort it. Or to hunt men down in a like Hunger games hunt. This is the modern feminism I get in contact everyday on social media. And again these are not some crazy unknown people these are also verrified twitter personalities and leaders of feminism movements. So no this is not the one I will ever support and the majority of people in real life agree with me. Again people consider themselfs as femininsts is on new lows. ( in the UK it is 7%)

As for killings and before I say this this is not a justification but more anattempt to explain why:

I believe that every action will cause a reaction so the more trans people want or accuse others of and I am not talking about the same human rights I am talking about more than other people have ( laws advantages etc) the more hostility you will create. Lets take the "if you do not want to date trans people you are homophobic" article) With stuff like this you will create more hostility and more hostility can also mean more harm to the general mminority even if some crazy people were arguing it on a big scale. Social Media is pretty great to manipulate articles, to spread them etc. And some people will get even as angry as killing people.

Religion or more specific the radical Islam does this too by the way. They create hate with stuff like this and people believing blindly in idologies will fall for this. I personally also feel that social media not only gave the voiceless a voice but it also created a ton more hostility in real life because it is so easy to spread your opinions and also to use manipulate peoples feelings, views and anger.

 

[Blam]

How was it 'bad faith' and 'asinine'?

It was frank and honest. I always wanted to talk about it before, but couldn't, and now we can.

I mean it's really poorly written, and whatever point you tried to push across failed to take the first 2 steps before falling into a crack of a california fault line.

 

[Oemenia]

The saddest thing is that the other forum is a shadow of what GAF was pre-2012.

 

[Zog]

No, but I recognise when certain groups of people are being targeted because of who they are, and go out of my way to protect that group.

Like say...straight white males?

 

[Battlechili]

The saddest thing is that the other forum is a shadow of what GAF was pre-2012.

The other forum is a culmination of the worst parts of Neogaf pre-site split, but a bit more extreme.

 

[BraveOne]

To get to the point, there where really 2 main issues i saw Gaf had during trans or LGBTQ conversations. The first being there where certain users who i honestly believed where "power users" or what you might say " Protected" they would turn the thread hostile and go against any other user that tried to make an argument , and in doing so other PowerUsers would dogpile which usualy lead to a ban for that person. This same behaviour is on Era and its the same users doing it over there, nothing has changed in that respect. The second issue was the heavy handed moderation, it really did feel like the main crux of the mods where on their side regardless what they where saying. It hurt discussion and if anything it put people off posting and engaging in a discussion.

 

[Moneal]

And that's the rub. I agree with the other poster in a perfect Star Trek like world, equal laws for everyone regardless of anything is the way it should be. But like you point out, right now we have an imbalance that the extra laws are trying to course correct the lack of proper enforcement. By doing this, we are taking measures to make sure they are enforced for those who may be passed over b/c of who they are.

You don't course correct by creating laws that only protect specific groups. You use the laws that already say to protect everyone better. Just like the EEOC has been trying to do. the EEOC used the civil rights act of 64 to add gender identity and orientation to their protections in 2012 and 2015, because the law already on the books said you can't discriminate based on sex. sex to the EEOC, and me, means orientation and identity. This is an example of what I mean. No need to add new laws, but use the current laws to protect everyone. the civil rights act is there to prevent discrimination and the wording is open enough to protect everyone.

 

[Blam]

To get to the point, there where really 2 main issues i saw Gaf had during trans or LGBTQ conversations. The first being there where certain users who i honestly believed where "power users" or what you might say " Protected" they would turn the thread hostile and go against any other user that tried to make an argument , and in doing so other PowerUsers would dogpile which usualy lead to a ban for that person. This same behaviour is on Era and its the same users doing it over there, nothing has changed in that respect. The second issue was the heavy handed moderation, it really did feel like the main crux of the mods where on their side regardless what they where saying. It hurt discussion and if anything it put people off posting and engaging in a discussion.

Doesn't help that as for what I saw they modded around 30+ people, and now it's coming back to bite them in the ass since the mod team leaks like a faucet, and nearly half of them are playing favorites with their friends.

 

[A Link to the Past]

That's all very silly, and I patently reject hostility being the fault of a marginalized group of people. The Emancipation Proclamation created hostility towards black people, but I doubt you feel that it shouldn't have happened to avoid such hostility. When a group is marginalized, the response needs to be to address it so they aren't. Asking for a law that equally addresses marginalization of all people is asking for severity to be irrelevant to determination. To put it simply, it's asking fire fighters to treat a house fire and a cat stuck in a tree as being an equal priority.

 

[norinrad]

My original intent was just to be running the site as I would a social space in real life. Most of us can get along with people of whatever sex, whatever orientation, whatever ethnicity, and whatever politics without going off the rails, so why can't it be like that on the internet too? I'm a pretty laid back person who can get along with nearly anyone and who wants to engage with diverse viewpoints.

Regarding trans issues, I recognized that trans people have it really hard in society and I paid extra attention to attempting to shape an environment where they could be comfortable being themselves, since those environments are few and far between. I was happy to see a trans-gaf subcommunity form over time and the community trend toward better understanding of trans issues such that they'd be far more respectful by default than you'd typically see.

That being said, my own views on how an internet forum should be run trend toward not giving a damn what anyone claims to be in terms of identity, just the content of what they have to say and the evidence supporting it. I'm not anonymous, and some other people here aren't, but most personas are formed freely on the internet and when you can become a "protected class" and wield power by announcing that you're a person of color or a woman or trans or whatever it may be, that's going to be taken advantage of on a platform like this. And it was. I never wanted that outcome. I just wanted everyone to be able to come on here and not deal with what I felt was a massive dissonance between how we typically engage with each other on the internet vs how we do IRL.

What the OP describes wasn't really specific to the trans community here. Every identity of person seemed to trend toward hostile tribalism over time, a huge rift formed between community and moderation, individual mods had their own agendas they were furthering, and I failed to course correct it all. Eventually nothing was "progressive enough" and I became the enemy to a subset of the trans community here as well as a subset of every minority community here. I took that all in and tried to navigate it, tried to understand people's positions, but nothing was good enough and a ton of people lashed out at me any time I said anything eventually.

Honestly, I was completely miserable every moment I was on GAF in 2017. I tried to turn things around, but I was dealing with rough personal issues all year and was only just starting to pull myself out of that when I got #metooed (falsely) out of nowhere. It was overwhelming and scary. It got mainstream media attention. The community had become a powderkeg of polarized, authoritarian left hostility that seemed to revel in setting this place on fire from within and throw me onto a pyre the moment they found out about that BS allegation, and almost all the mods immediately bailed, we got DDoSed for like two straight days, and by the time we were back up we barely had any mod coverage and I was deeply hurt by what the community was saying about me and could barely engage with it. Then I had to step back and take care of important personal concerns, so it took some time to figure out where to take the site from there.

Anyway, don't blame the trans community here. Blame me. Everything that happened, at least, eventually became an opportunity to actually course correct this place like I couldn't when it was at its peak, so that we'd be able to actually talk about things again, and use this place for escapism from the shitty real world, too, rather than some insane asylum where you're driven out for "normalizing!!11" if you don't hate everything and want to die.

I think Rocket Number 22 sets a great example by being willing to talk about her identity and demanding a baseline of respect we all should have for each other, but not constantly relying on "as a trans woman....." at the start of each sentence in an argument. We all have an identity, we all have our struggles, we can all respect each other. Let's do it without creating a swirling miasma of bitter hostility in a game of oppression olympics where there's one correct thing to say and we all hate each other for the privileges we see on the other side of the screen. And let's be cool with our trans gaffers too.

Thanks.

Good post. I hope we can go back to Gaf around 2004-2007. In time this place will find it's voice again and we can all have a good time.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You don't course correct by creating laws that only protect specific groups. You use the laws that already say to protect everyone better. Just like the EEOC has been trying to do. the EEOC used the civil rights act of 64 to add gender identity and orientation to their protections in 2012 and 2015, because the law already on the books said you can't discriminate based on sex. sex to the EEOC, and me, means orientation and identity. This is an example of what I mean. No need to add new laws, but use the current laws to protect everyone. the civil rights act is there to prevent discrimination and the wording is open enough to protect everyone.

We make laws that protect specific groups because it's a response to it being more needed in some areas, and generally because the people afflicted have specific issues that aren't simply addressed by equal protection.

Further, many people do not regard sex as covering trans people, so what do we do then?

 

[Battlechili]

Lets take the "if you do not want to date trans people you are homophobic" article) With stuff like this you will create more hostility and more hostility can also mean more harm to the general mminority even if some crazy people were arguing it on a big scale. Social Media is pretty great to manipulate articles, to spread them etc. And some people will get even as angry as killing people.

Religion or more specific the radical Islam does this too by the way. They create hate with stuff like this and people believing blindly in idologies will fall for this. I personally also feel that social media not only gave the voiceless a voice but it also created a ton more hostility in real life because it is so easy to spread your opinions and also to use manipulate peoples feelings, views and anger.

While I don't think you're necessarily wrong, I think its important to recognize and distinguish why these things exist. Its extremely difficult to do this and I fully understand the feelings of hostility from it, but one should not allow extremists to distort one's views of a larger collective group. Rather, its important to try and understand why the extremism exists and to learn what to take from it. In your cases for example, if I were to take a gander at it, articles like "if you do not want to date trans people you are homophobic" probably get made because some people have feelings of disgust towards those who are trans (and such disgust can show when people are refusing to date trans people), and that's sort of a counter response to the disgust and/or transphobia. Its not that not wanting to date a particular person is wrong, but just that you shouldn't act disgusted by trans people. Or rather, that such an article would be written to counter general transphobia basically.

I dunno if I'm putting this well and fear I may have said something icky.

What I'm trying to say is to not let extremism distort your ability to discern right from wrong. Don't let extremism turn your feelings of what would otherwise be acceptance into hate, and instead just try to determine what would cause such articles and responses to be written. What sort of feelings might the author behind such an article be experiencing.

 

[BraveOne]

Doesn't help that as for what I saw they modded around 30+ people, and now it's coming back to bite them in the ass since the mod team leaks like a faucet, and nearly half of them are playing favorites with their friends.

Yep, and if you want to see it in full action look at the Boogie2988 thread. I was not around during the Gamergate days so i had no idea what the issue was with him. Anyway on the last 2 pages a mod left a message that was frighting to read in any forum as it was clearly someone talking out of emotion rather then duty or being impartial, the message was then withdrawn and the site admin made a statement about it.

 

[Moneal]

We make laws that protect specific groups because it's a response to it being more needed in some areas, and generally because the people afflicted have specific issues that aren't simply addressed by equal protection.

Further, many people do not regard sex as covering trans people, so what do we do then?

We enforce the law because discriminating because they are trans is discrimination based on sex. I would like to see their argument though, doubt it would hold up in court. Unless those laws add additional punishments for acts against specific groups they aren't going to change anything, and if they do then that is creating unequal protections. which i am against.

 

[Dash27]

It wasn't so much pro Trans as it was leftist. Trans was one of the causes. People like to one up each other over crap like that on the internets.

What is the new home for this segment of Gaf?

 

[lifa-cobex]

Oh, the OP was definitely written in bad faith and is totally asinine. Sorry about that; I left it open because I figured it was still an opportunity for off-topic to engage and hash some things out, and I think it's had some value in that regard even if it frames the discussion poorly. It's important that we actually talk to each other again and work through these difficult subjects.

I like this attitude.

 

[OrionFalls]

Like say...straight white males?

When was the last time you saw a group of straight white males being shamed for just being them?

 

[michaelius]

I don't think it was LGBT community itself , just like it wasn't usually women who were most active in feminism threads. Just like with faith where new members are usually most zealous ones it was some cis males trying to be more progressive than everyone else including the people actually affected- probably trying to prove their "progressiveness" and not seeing they are becoming extremists.

 

[Moneal]

When was the last time you saw a group of straight white males being shamed for just being them?

And here we have the classic ‘white privilege’ in motion. White people get bullied, I get that. But to argue that white people get bullied/harassed on the same level as black, gay, disabled, or trans people is just plain ignorant.

this could be an example.

 

[Zog]

When was the last time you saw a group of straight white males being shamed for just being them?

Everytime someone implies that a straight white males opinion is of less worth because straight white males are privileged.

 

[Blam]

Yep, and if you want to see it in full action look at theBoogie2988 thread. I was not around during the Gamergate days so i had no idea what the issue was with him. Anyway on the last 2 pages a mod left a message that was frighting to read in any forum as it was clearly someone talking out of emotion rather then duty or being impartial, the message was then withdrawn and the site admin made a statement about it.

Is there a saved image of what he posted? I really would want to know what would cause Cerium to make a statement on it. Also he's still a mod? That's sorta concerning. Giving out second chances like that. Wonder why they didn't do that for me.

 

[Dunki]

While I don't think you're necessarily wrong, I think its important to recognize and distinguish why these things exist. Its extremely difficult to do this and I fully understand the feelings of hostility from it, but one should not allow extremists to distort one's views of a larger collective group. Rather, its important to try and understand why the extremism exists and to learn what to take from it. In your cases for example, if I were to take a gander at it, articles like "if you do not want to date trans people you are homophobic" probably get made because some people have feelings of disgust towards those who are trans (and such disgust can show when people are refusing to date trans people), and that's sort of a counter response to the disgust and/or transphobia. Its not that not wanting to date a particular person is wrong, but just that you shouldn't act disgusted by trans people. Or rather, that such an article would be written to counter general transphobia basically.

I dunno if I'm putting this well and fear I may have said something icky.

What I'm trying to say is to not let extremism distort your ability to discern right from wrong. Don't let extremism turn your feelings of what would otherwise be acceptance into hate, and instead just try to determine what would cause such articles and responses to be written. What sort of feelings might the author behind such an article be experiencing.

Oh I totally agree. That is how I pesonally go through all this. But there are much more fraigle people out there. Especially boys these days feel totally lost in our current society. They have no place anymore and men are being stigmatozed by extremists movement like the modern feminism as an example and these are the people who do all this. So yes it is important to understand where thi extremism comes from. That why I also always said that you should talk to these people and not try to shut them down. or censoring people. By doing this you will archive the oposite effect IMO.

And for the trans article:

"It is, however, deeply transphobic to decide that you never want to date anytransgender person ever, and the choice to draw such a line is rooted in ignorance, fear, and disgust of trans people"

These kind of wordings will cause so much hostility and it is not countering general transphobia. I personally think it does the opposite since you accuse people who in general do not care about tans people and just want them to live their lifes while also not wanting to personally involved in their lifes (aka relationship) Tans people or any minority does not need to be accepted by everyone. The people you should fight is who actually want to hurt these minorities.

Personal example: I am all for gay marriage and if someone is gay I will be happy for him be it friend or not. But I also can not watch two men kiss. I do not think I am disgusted by it is the right reason and if someone does it I just look the other way and done. To call these kind of people homophobic will only lessen their support. We need to stop to argue in absolutes. If someone does not like something that is fine let them be. They do not hurt you. They will only become hostile if you act in a agressive way like accusing them of something.

 

[EviLore]

No worries, I know obviously the original intent of the post wasn't gonna be fully edited. I'd love for discussion like this to happen more, it builds the community up even if it is negative.



Damn I had only wondered how you were feeling the entire time during it all. Sorta a shock to know the site was being ddosed, and spammed by shitty members for the sake of "BURN IT DOWN."

I remember around that time they shunned literally all of those members, but made no effort to stop them. But hey that's just my 2 cents on that matter. And yeah you were being slandered by just nearly everyone for something that seemingly had nothing backing it, and had holes throughout the entire thing. Which later turned out to be false.

I'm happy You and GAF pulled through since I honestly don't know where I'd have went if GAF was shut down.

Yeah, I mean, this was off-topic:

I could barely look at it at the time. All the threads in pink were deleted by the mods to try to keep the peace while I tried to write some kind of official statement, but everything kept getting worse and worse. I basically hadn't slept for three days at that point because I found out about the facebook allegation two days prior and since she deleted it the next day and it hadn't become a thing I didn't know if I'd have to address it publicly or not. Then I guess some Social Justice gaffers got together on Twitter and coordinated posting screenshots of the already deleted allegation all over the site the day after that, everything went wild as per the screenshot above, we were then getting DDoSed and the site was down more than it was up, mods started having panic attacks and resigning and then the site was pretty much completely down from the DDoSing and I had rewritten my statement like a dozen times over at that point and had nothing left in me. I basically shifted over to saying goodbyes to everyone who was quitting since some of those folks I had been running gaf with for almost two decades. Gromph was trying to get the site back up but I told him to get some sleep since everything seemed fucked anyway, and I spent the night emailing Patrick Klepek with comment about the story (while still not having slept yet I don't think...) since I figured he would be a more neutral and well-researched avenue than Kotaku, who asked me absolutely ridiculous leading questions.

When Gromph woke up he managed to take the site down officially for maintenance through the DDoSes, and I tried to regroup the remaining few people to figure out what to do when we turned things back on, but there was barely anyone left and off-topic was where most of the rioting had taken place, so that's why off-topic was closed temporarily. Some insane social justice people were trying to get anyone who hadn't disavowed NeoGAF fired from their jobs (unsuccessfully, since that's ridiculous, but it still created more panic internally). I told everyone from the start of the panic that morning to protect themselves first and foremost and that I didn't blame them if they felt they needed to leave. Almost everyone ended up leaving. When we came back online we didn't have enough mod coverage to possibly deal with all the Reset promotional spam so we just kind of let it run its course, figure out what to do, I lawyered up and started documenting evidence with my lawyers that discredited the allegation completely, but very quickly the narrative moved on to how it "wasn't about the allegation" anymore.

I had to take care of family medical emergencies shortly thereafter and I was pretty shaken by everything and didn't want to bring any volunteer mods into such a shitstorm where people were trying to fuck with anyone still involved with the site, so even though tons of people offered to help mod via PM I turned them down, asked them to sit tight and just give things some time, and hired some contractors to take care of things on the moderation end until everything settled down enough where I felt it was okay to bring a new team of mods in. I mean, when the contractors were helping, things were still really bad with hundreds of account suicides with porn spam and Reset promotion. We got Cloudflare up ASAP though and so the subsequent DDoS attempts were unsuccessful at least.

It was messy. I fucked up plenty during the whole thing and didn't communicate with everyone here enough except through some PMs, because I was really sad about how the community seemed to turn on me so awfully, and then the media circus that followed was just astounding in scope and I wanted nothing to do with that either and told all my friends and business associates to distance themselves until things cooled off. I probably should have protected myself more instead of just letting it all hit me, but it seemed like the public narrative had been set in stone instantly anyway.

 

[Dunki]

EDIT by Dienekes [quoted post]: this post has since been deleted as meta-commentary on GAF is wholly unproductive to this thread.

Yeah I know discussions with different opinions and not hostility and personal attacks because you do not agree with them....

Who even wants that...

 

[LatvjuAvs]

It is very refreshing to read thread like this, I enjoyed a lot when people do not throw dismissive one liner, but try to be reasonable and explain them selves, and try to understand others.
Keep this spirit up.
This universe have infinite space for everyone as long we do not harm to each other.

 

[OrionFalls]

Everytime someone implies that a straight white males opinion is of less worth because straight white males are privileged.

The irony behind this post is delicious.

 

[Battlechili]

EDIT by Dienekes: removing same quoted post.

I do think it might be worth it for you to read some of the replies in the thread.
Its recognized that OP's post was poorly made. There's quite a bit in here to learn about the goings on in the background of GAF these past few months in this thread it seems.

Wonder why they didn't do that for me.

I've sent a few emails to them asking for a second chance there and have gotten no reply. I've been told supposedly a ban appeal system is planned for the future there, but that was months ago and I've heard no word since. I wouldn't expect it at this point. While a bit depressing, it can't be helped.

If you recall, prior to the site split though, Amir0x (before we learned more about his more personal endeavors that I wish not to go into as its a different topic for another time) got quite a few 2nd chances for posts that would've normally gotten most users banned. That place is pretty much what Neogaf was like prior to the site split. Mods and ex mods tend to get more forgiveness than standard users do from what I've noticed.

 

[BraveOne]

Yeah, I mean, this was off-topic:



I could barely look at it at the time. All the threads in pink were deleted by the mods to try to keep the peace while I tried to write some kind of official statement, but everything kept getting worse and worse. I basically hadn't slept for three days at that point because I found out about the facebook allegation two days prior and since she deleted it the next day and it hadn't become a thing I didn't know if I'd have to address it publicly or not. Then I guess some Social Justice gaffers got together on Twitter and coordinated posting screenshots of the already deleted allegation all over the site the day after that, everything went wild as per the screenshot above, we were then getting DDoSed and the site was down more than it was up, mods started having panic attacks and resigning and then the site was pretty much completely down from the DDoSing and I had rewritten my statement like a dozen times over at that point and had nothing left in me. I basically shifted over to saying goodbyes to everyone who was quitting since some of those folks I had been running gaf with for almost two decades. Gromph was trying to get the site back up but I told him to get some sleep since everything seemed fucked anyway, and I spent the night emailing Patrick Klepek with comment about the story (while still not having slept yet I don't think...) since I figured he would be a more neutral and well-researched avenue than Kotaku, who asked me absolutely ridiculous leading questions.

When Gromph woke up he managed to take the site down officially for maintenance through the DDoSes, and I tried to regroup the remaining few people to figure out what to do when we turned things back on, but there was barely anyone left and off-topic was where most of the rioting had taken place, so that's why off-topic was closed temporarily. Some insane social justice people were trying to get anyone who hadn't disavowed NeoGAF fired from their jobs (unsuccessfully, since that's ridiculous, but it still created more panic internally). I told everyone from the start of the panic that morning to protect themselves first and foremost and that I didn't blame them if they felt they needed to leave. Almost everyone ended up leaving. When we came back online we didn't have enough mod coverage to possibly deal with all the Reset promotional spam so we just kind of let it run its course, figure out what to do, I lawyered up and started documenting evidence with my lawyers that discredited the allegation completely, but very quickly the narrative moved on to how it "wasn't about the allegation" anymore.

I had to take care of family medical emergencies shortly thereafter and I was pretty shaken by everything and didn't want to bring any volunteer mods into such a shitstorm where people were trying to fuck with anyone still involved with the site, so even though tons of people offered to help mod via PM I turned them down, asked them to sit tight and just give things some time, and hired some contractors to take care of things on the moderation end until everything settled down enough where I felt it was okay to bring a new team of mods in. I mean, when the contractors were helping, things were still really bad with hundreds of account suicides with porn spam and Reset promotion. We got Cloudflare up ASAP though and so the subsequent DDoS attempts were unsuccessful at least.

It was messy. I fucked up plenty during the whole thing and didn't communicate with everyone here enough except through some PMs, because I was really sad about how the community seemed to turn on me so awfully, and then the media circus that followed was just astounding in scope and I wanted nothing to do with that either and told all my friends and business associates to distance themselves until things cooled off. I probably should have protected myself more instead of just letting it all hit me, but it seemed like the public narrative had been set in stone instantly anyway.

Couple of questions if you dont mind.

• Did you end up filing a lawsuit or was it not worth the hassle in the end?
• What is your current role on the site, are you still the Owner/Key person and did you consider stepping down at anypoint during any of this?
• Have you taken a vacation or time off since October ?
• What are the current active member numbers ( if you are allowed to say)
• Do you have an account on Era?

 

[David___]

Like say...straight white males?

Straight white males aren't being bullied because they're white to the point of suicide