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If liberalism is to thrive again, left liberals that are open to discussion need to dissassociate from the fascist left aka the authoritarian left that thought police people, like many of the old mods on this site did. The fascist left is pushing people away from liberalism and is likely the biggest reason for the backlash against PCisms that led to Trumps win.

Respecting someone's right to privacy, Freedom of expression, emphatiizing with why someone thinks the way they do and being open to other people's perspectives and viewpoints are fundamentally liberal principles.

Many of the Militant left wing people who ran old gaf and run the new site are liberals in name only. I don’t know when this switch happened but these authoritarian liberals don't have the openness to other viewpoints that liberal philosophy mandates. They openly hate on all police officers, many hate on all members of the military and accuse all white people of white privilege and anyone that disagrees with them is a racist. They militantly ban colleges from having guest speakers that disagree with their worldview and refuse to confront of acknowledge their own biases. This is how conservatives are, liberals should be open minded.

As almost everyone here has pointed out OP., your views on transpeople is close minded and inconsiderate. But it's not because you are a hateful bigot, it's because of social conditioning that you feel this way. It comes from a place of misinformation, not hate. Liberals understand this because they have empathy with others and like to engage with them and educate them in an open discourse.
I know the below graph is well known...

But it’s very true. Traditional liberals fall into what the chart labels Libertarian Left. The people that call themselves Libertarians fall into the Libertarian Right quadrant. The GOP fall into the Authoritarian Right and unfortunately, the Authoritarian Left (the people engaging in thought policing, doxxing and attacking freedom of speech on campuses) have switched to hijacking the Liberal moniker though they do not share their principles or values.

Liberals need to kick them out and reclaim the label before their name gets even more dragged through the mud by the authoritarian Left that do not value freedom of expression, the right to privacy or freedom of thought. Empathy towards even those we disagree with is the only path towards changing minds and making progress.
The old gaf and the new site were not run by liberals, they would have instantly personally attacked you and banned you without engaging with you to try to explain why your views on transgender people are incorrect, because the old gaf and the new site was not run by liberals that have an open mind and empathy but was instead run by close minded militants that resort to thought policing. And it got this way over time...

The issue was the rampant bans. People who expressed nonleft views points or defended conservatives were first attacked by many liberal posters and then when they tried to explain their perspective were outright banned. This pushed the forum even more left. Then people that expressed views that didn't confirm to this lefter ideology were again dogpiled on then banned. With each banning the forum became more and more of a far left bubble where anyone outside the bubble was either banned or afraid to post their perspective.

And anyone that pointed out there is a bubble now we're again dogpiled on then banned.

The same thing will happen to the new site and with each round of bans there, more and more people will return to this site.

Right wing bubbles are a far bigger issue and they do more harm and become more hateful and racist over time, but gafs previous status as a far left wing bubble where differing views even if they were not hateful were completely unwelcome and piled on then got people banned was thought policing and fascist.

By definition, the people that facilitate left wing bubbles are not liberals and do not share liberal values.

That woman that accidently tweeted a private joke to a friend about AIDs in Africa was targeted for doxxing by a left wing bubble that got her fired from her job and got multiple death threats and harassing calls requiring her to go into police protection.

No one with empathy (ie a liberal) would be okay with treating someone this way over a private joke that meant no one any harm.

That guy that posted the youtube video of his drivethru at chick fil was targeted (probably by right wing bubbles) for doxxing, death threats and lost his job, his home and is now homeless

A random H and M store was targeting for rioting and looting because of the racist ad their company put out and then immediately took down when they realized it was racist.

A real liberal would be considerate of the fact that people have different perspectives, views and biases and would try to engage with them and educate them rather than attacking them and asking for them to be banned.

Liberals do not believe in thought policing, or name calling. They believe in trying to understand other people's perspectives, open conversation and discourse.

When the rest of the world saw homosexuality as a mental illness and transgender people as perverts, it was conservatives that resorted to name calling and thought policing and liberals that tried to empathize with people with a different perspective and lifestyle and stood alongside and advocated for them.

Yes, Militant liberals share liberal policies but they absolutely do not share liberal ideals. They are loud and abuse any power they get to banning people and stop conversation and thus they can quickly turn a forum like this one into a bubble. And in doing so, they do far more damage to the liberal causes than conservatives could ever hope to because they actively push people away from liberal ideology.

Militant leftists are not liberals, just the opposite, Militant liberals that deny the right to privacy and that belive in labeling and banning people share their political philosophy with the ideals of fascism, the same as Militant conservatives.

TLDR: Militant liberals do not represent liberals or liberal values at all. Not all biases are racist. Racism comes from a place of hate and resentment. Bias is a product of societal conditioning, and it can be reversed with engagement and education. Conflating bias with hatred and opting to thought police and ban people for having a different viewpoint (even when it is not hateful) doesn't do anyone any good. And it's also extremely dishonest because there is not a single person on the planet that can honestly claim to be free of biases.

 

[Moneal]

Your everyday white, straight male is not subjected to the level of hate that a trans person would get. So, no, your statement is wrong. I, as a white straight male, do not need protection. A trans person, who is subject to vile attacks on a daily basis purely because they are who they are, does need protection. The whole equality argument does not fly here.

I don't think you get the point they are trying to make. You do have those protections, if the attacks were physical or threatened physical harm. You don't have protection from people calling you racist because you are white, calling you misogynist because you are male, or privileged because you are both. Those are just words and you don't need protection from them. The same protections should extend to trans people. they deserve the protection from physical attacks and threats of physical harm. They don't need protection from words, again as long as those words are not calling for physical harm. You dont get protection from being hated by being white. Nor should you and trans people shouldn't either, no group should. that would go directly against freedom of speech and thought.

 

[Dunki]

Your everyday white, straight male is not subjected to the level of hate that a trans person would get. So, no, your statement is wrong. I, as a white straight male, do not need protection. A trans person, who is subject to vile attacks on a daily basis purely because they are who they are, does need protection. The whole equality argument does not fly here.

Yes it does. If you get threaten no matter if as straight white male or poc trans person. There are LAWS for these things. What we need to actually do is execute and to implement these laws into our social media accounts, places etc. And I also agree that words are a very different topic. Example: You used your straight white males as a derogatory form. As something to shut me down etc.

Let me give you another example: My niece has spastics? (I think you call it like that in english) and sits in a wheelchair. So that is also a minority. All she ever wants is to be threaten as a normal person and personally I have not seen any disabled people who wanted to be treaten differently at all. So I do so. Same principle here the moment you are threaten differentl the moment you become special, special needs, special treatment etc. Same goes with color. I do not care if you are black, white asian whatever. I will treat you the same as anyone else. I personally judge people based on their own actions, based on their ideology, based on their own personal decision they have decided themself etc.

So yes I am sorry If I do not treat anyone special because of their gender, race, or sex.

 

[OrionFalls]

I really don't want to derail this, but exactly those vast generalizations are what started all of it. Next to transgender people straight white male have one of the highest suicide rate and also the highest drug consumption rate now. If you are a happy well educated financial independent straight white male this may be true, but that is not the majority of people. Why are we back to these generalizations? People need protection if they need protection not because they are members of a certain group.

I don't think you get the point they are trying to make. You do have those protections, if the attacks were physical or threatened physical harm. You don't have protection from people calling you racist because you are white, calling you misogynist because you are male, or privileged because you are both. Those are just words and you don't need protection from them. The same protections should extend to trans people. they deserve the protection from physical attacks and threats of physical harm. They don't need protection from words, again as long as those words are not calling for physical harm. You dont get protection from being hated by being white. Nor should you and trans people shouldn't either, no group should. that would go directly against freedom of speech and thought.

So yes I am sorry If I do not treat anyone special because of their gender, race, or sex.

And herein lies the problem.

 

[Moneal]

And herein lies the problem.

What is the problem? That we believe you shouldn't be protected from words that don't threaten physical harm?

 

[OrionFalls]

What is the problem? That we believe you shouldn't be protected from words that don't threaten physical harm?

It doesn't need to be physical to destroy lives.

 

[Moneal]

It doesn't need to be physical to destroy lives.

Calling a white person racist can destroy lives. should that be protected?

 

[Mahadev]

Gamers tend to tilt left. I lean very left but I disliked what happened, because I always felt people having the freedom to express their views, as long as they are not hateful, is important.

The issue was the rampant bans. People who expressed nonleft views points or defended conservatives were first attacked by many liberal posters and then when they tried to explain their perspective were outright banned. This pushed the forum even more left. Then people that expressed views that didn't confirm to this lefter ideology were again dogpiled on then banned. With each banning the forum became more and more of a far left bubble where anyone outside the bubble was either banned or afraid to post their perspective.

The same thing will happen to the newsite and with each round of bans there, more and more people will return to this site

Right wing bubbles are a far bigger issue and they do more harm and become more hateful and racist over time, but gafs previous status as a far left wing bubble where differing views even if they were not hateful were completely unwelcome and piled on then got people banned was not a good thing either.

This forum wasn't far left though, it wasn't even left. The loud voices that were dominating this forum that had the support of the mods were hardcore Clinton loyalists that were constantly calling actual leftists all kinds of names, from delusional to even racist and sexist (the last two specifically against Sanders supporters).

A lot of posters itt are talking about authoritarian left but most of these people weren't left at all. The neoliberal ideology which the DNC leadership is a fine example of and is economically hardcore rightwing has co-opted "leftist" identity politics to mask itself as centrist or even left. Hillary fucking Clinton wasn't left, I will never stop repeating this until the end of time, the war-monger that destroyed Libya that now has a slave trade doesn't really care about social issues or minority rights, she only cares about these issues as long as they can bring her votes and can distract the population enough to continue with the neoliberal pillaging of the West. The same applies to the rest of corporate Democrats and it's the same strategy Republican politicians have perfected for decades now but from the other extreme, they supposedly care about immigration, abortions, gay marriage and so on, bullshit they care, it's all an act even they probably have believed until, you know, it happens to them and then you have a Dick Cheney situation whose daughter is openly gay.

 

[Dunki]

It doesn't need to be physical to destroy lives.

See I even agree with this. Like bullying mobbing etc. But also again you should not get special protection from it because you are a minority. Everyone who gets bullied, mobbed etc needs this protecion.

 

[Deleted member 713885]

I think you have two types of "Trans/LGBT/Minority/Womem etc.." groups.

You have the normal out in the world type. Who kinda give zero fucks. They care about issues but arent "angry/militant" etc. So to say.

Then you have, what we had at GAF, a subset of these groups who had other mental problems. And resentment/anger.

Look at a mass majority of the Trans community deeply involved on twitter, Ex-GAF'ers (By god look at the MASSIVE amount of those who srung up in the speed-run community. These weren't/arent just normal "ladies" trying to get by.
Most of them suffer from depression, a good amount are clearly Autistic. Generally obese men, unattractive men (who became even more unattactive women)

They had an axe to grind with every CIS male not thinking "Well thats a pretty lady Id like to date!"
They didnt fit into society, be it mental health issues or looks and clung to a new identity...A new identity you were NOT allowed to not accept.
Long were the days of society not seeing them attractive men, not seeing them as not socially inept...Now they were a minority group..a group that commanded your attraction, respect, acceptance.

GAF's trans community, Twitters, YouTubes etc.. werent so much Transgender as much as they are 'Trans-trender"

I know and talk to a few Trans women, I am honest and say "I accept you, am your friend and will even call your Her/She. But, your never gonna be a 'woman' in my eyes. I will never see you as female 100%. If both of us have to get Prostate exams at 40....your not a chick."
What do these 'normal' not clingy to online forums and activism say?
THEY DONT GIVE A F***.
They are well adjusted people who just shrug shit off and go about their day.

GAF's were the type of Trans who bitched about 'Pussyhats' cause "not all women have vaginas!"
The type who attacked straight males who didnt find it acceptable to date a woman with a bigger package.
The type who attacked Lesbian women for not wanting to go down on a 'lady' with a set of balls.

Unhinged, Neo-Liberal Nazis

 

[A Link to the Past]

I find it weird that EviLore cited Rocket Number 22 as a good example of how to behave when in reading a lot of threads, they are among the most hostile.

Also, are we really bringing up the speedrun community and talking about depression/anxiety/autism as being something you see commonly among trans people? I think you're correlating two factors that don't inherently connect. A fair few people in the speedrunning community are on the autistic spectrum, and anxiety/depression is common among all types of gamer.

 

[OrionFalls]

Calling a white person racist can destroy lives. should that be protected?

And here we have the classic ‘white privilege’ in motion. White people get bullied, I get that. But to argue that white people get bullied/harassed on the same level as black, gay, disabled, or trans people is just plain ignorant.

 

[Osukaa]

Thank you for speaking up about the Trans community and about everything in general that went down in 2017. I think as a leader you sometimes have to take a step back as you said and see the whole picture and re- evaluate alot of things that are hard to confront whether they be accusations or mods and members forming a "gang" so to speak that would attack others if they had different viewpoints. Your post has me hopeful and excited for the future of GAF and im glad that the member we have decided to weather (whether?) through the storm and hopefully we come out as better community. Im loving all the updates and changes made here and the Mod intros were awesome as well. Now on to the subject of trans. In my old workplace there used to be quiet a few if them and I have had nothing but good experiences with them.
That's why its a surprise to me that it was a bit hostile here from both sides. I hope we can all start fresh and learn from the past and even if we may disagree I hope we can still have civil discussions without any personal attacks.

 

[Moneal]

And here we have the classic ‘white privilege’ in motion. White people get bullied, I get that. But to argue that white people get bullied/harassed on the same level as black, gay, disabled, or trans people is just plain ignorant.

And here is a classic example of bad assumption because of beliefs in motion.

Yes My classic white privilege. My dad is a black man and my mother white. Im in a quite small minority thank you.

As for bullying and harrasment there are already laws for those regardless of class race creed or what have you. those protect all of us. and they should. thats what i was talking about. being trans shouldn't give you any more protection than being white should.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

People that are actually affected by the issue being discussed are always going to be more touchy about it. I recognise it in myself and try to stay away from discussions that are personal for me because I know that I have an emotional bias. It's not healthy for me to engage in discussions like that with strangers over the internet and I feel like some people drive themselves mad trying to confront every viewpoint that upsets them. It's just an impossible task.

 

[Musky_Cheese]

My original intent was just to be running the site as I would a social space in real life. Most of us can get along with people of whatever sex, whatever orientation, whatever ethnicity, and whatever politics without going off the rails, so why can't it be like that on the internet too? I'm a pretty laid back person who can get along with nearly anyone and who wants to engage with diverse viewpoints.

Regarding trans issues, I recognized that trans people have it really hard in society and I paid extra attention to attempting to shape an environment where they could be comfortable being themselves, since those environments are few and far between. I was happy to see a trans-gaf subcommunity form over time and the community trend toward better understanding of trans issues such that they'd be far more respectful by default than you'd typically see.

That being said, my own views on how an internet forum should be run trend toward not giving a damn what anyone claims to be in terms of identity, just the content of what they have to say and the evidence supporting it. I'm not anonymous, and some other people here aren't, but most personas are formed freely on the internet and when you can become a "protected class" and wield power by announcing that you're a person of color or a woman or trans or whatever it may be, that's going to be taken advantage of on a platform like this. And it was. I never wanted that outcome. I just wanted everyone to be able to come on here and not deal with what I felt was a massive dissonance between how we typically engage with each other on the internet vs how we do IRL.

What the OP describes wasn't really specific to the trans community here. Every identity of person seemed to trend toward hostile tribalism over time, a huge rift formed between community and moderation, individual mods had their own agendas they were furthering, and I failed to course correct it all. Eventually nothing was "progressive enough" and I became the enemy to a subset of the trans community here as well as a subset of every minority community here. I took that all in and tried to navigate it, tried to understand people's positions, but nothing was good enough and a ton of people lashed out at me any time I said anything eventually.

Honestly, I was completely miserable every moment I was on GAF in 2017. I tried to turn things around, but I was dealing with rough personal issues all year and was only just starting to pull myself out of that when I got #metooed (falsely) out of nowhere. It was overwhelming and scary. It got mainstream media attention. The community had become a powderkeg of polarized, authoritarian left hostility that seemed to revel in setting this place on fire from within and throw me onto a pyre the moment they found out about that BS allegation, and almost all the mods immediately bailed, we got DDoSed for like two straight days, and by the time we were back up we barely had any mod coverage and I was deeply hurt by what the community was saying about me and could barely engage with it. Then I had to step back and take care of important personal concerns, so it took some time to figure out where to take the site from there.

Anyway, don't blame the trans community here. Blame me. Everything that happened, at least, eventually became an opportunity to actually course correct this place like I couldn't when it was at its peak, so that we'd be able to actually talk about things again, and use this place for escapism from the shitty real world, too, rather than some insane asylum where you're driven out for "normalizing!!11" if you don't hate everything and want to die.

I think @Rocket Number 22 sets a great example by being willing to talk about her identity and demanding a baseline of respect we all should have for each other, but not constantly relying on "as a trans woman....." at the start of each sentence in an argument. We all have an identity, we all have our struggles, we can all respect each other. Let's do it without creating a swirling miasma of bitter hostility in a game of oppression olympics where there's one correct thing to say and we all hate each other for the privileges we see on the other side of the screen. And let's be cool with our trans gaffers too.

Thanks.

I appreciate you taking accountability.

Of everything pointed out recently in these threads, the one thing not touched on is accountability. The reality is we all are part of what happened even in some small way.

I’m guilty of not trying. Instead of standing up and saying this shit ain’t right, I shut up. I stopped posting in threads that were toxic. I stopped going to off topic. I stopped post and only lurked. Even if Ian 99.99% sure it wouldn’t have done any good, I can’t be 100%... because I didn’t try.

Our inability to say “I was wrong, I am sorry” is as big a contributor as anything for what happened here.

I think Evilore is a perfect of that. People blew up and when we started to learn more about the situation, they didn’t want to say “maybe I jump the gun”. “Perhaps I jumped to conclusions”. So they wanted to say “it’s not about that, it’s how it was handled”.

For whatever reason, we couldn’t say my bad for years as a community.

 

[Dunki]

And here we have the classic ‘white privilege’ in motion. White people get bullied, I get that. But to argue that white people get bullied/harassed on the same level as black, gay, disabled, or trans people is just plain ignorant.

No one is arguing this. But we are not here to play the opression olympics. No one wins who gets bullied, mobbed etc. And your race, gender, sex should have nothing to do with it. A bullied trans person is not more important than a bullied white men.

 

[Guiberu]

And here we have the classic ‘white privilege’ in motion. White people get bullied, I get that. But to argue that white people get bullied/harassed on the same level as black, gay, disabled, or trans people is just plain ignorant.

Can I ask, what's your ethnicity, and background? I'm genuinely curious, by the way. I'd like to know your story. But you obviously don't have to answer if you don't want to.

I don't agree with your perspective, and I don't think this is how you reach a state of equality.

Humans, and the planet we live on, are horrifically complex, and shouldn't be generalized.

 

[shpankey]

Your everyday white, straight male is not subjected to the level of hate that a trans person would get. So, no, your statement is wrong. I, as a white straight male, do not need protection. A trans person, who is subject to vile attacks on a daily basis purely because they are who they are, does need protection. The whole equality argument does not fly here.

I think he meant everyone is equal to receive the same protection, where you're talking about them needing it more or not is a different point.

 

[A Link to the Past]

And here is a classic example of bad assumption because of beliefs in motion.

Yes My classic white privilege. My dad is a black man and my mother white. Im in a quite small minority thank you.

As for bullying and harrasment there are already laws for those regardless of class race creed or what have you. those protect all of us. and they should. thats what i was talking about. being trans shouldn't give you any more protection than being white should.

Laws only work if they are fairly and adequately applied. You can't bring up laws protecting trans people when there is not, for instance, nationwide protection for them from being fired for being trans.

 

[Dunki]

Laws only work if they are fairly and adequately applied. You can't bring up laws protecting trans people when there is not, for instance, nationwide protection for them from being fired for being trans.

The law protection rights are not being made because of trans people. These discrimination laws are for everyone. Therefore everyone is equal. What America does or not was not the topic. There are also a lot more countries in the world than America. And my argumentation for example is that everyone needs and deserves the laws.

You can not call for equality and then establish special rights for different people based on sex, gender or race) That is not equality. Example: Hiring quotas for women while totally ignoring men.

 

[TTOOLL]

Old GAF got to a point in which if you said you would not date a trans person you were considered a transphobic trash, period. It was pretty much ban worthy.
That's not acceptable in any way, dating preferences are NOT to be taken as "phobia" or racism, but they were.

This does not mean trans people shouldn't be respected, everyone should. Everyone has problems in life, it doesn't matter how rich you are, your skin color or your sex.

 

[A Link to the Past]

The law protection rights are not being made because of trans people. These discrimination laws are for everyone. Therefore everyone is equal. What America does or not was not the topic. There are also a lot more countries in the world than America. And my argumentation for example is that everyone needs and deserves the laws.

You can not call for equality and then establish special rights for different people based on sex, gender or race) That is not equality. Example: Hiring quotas for women while totally ignoring men.

They are not. There is specific opposition to prevent protection of trans people from employment discrimination from being added to these laws, and people do get fired for being trans.

Also, you cannot ignore the advantages that one group has and expect no course correcting to occur to address such advantages.

 

[Deleted member 713885]

As to the ^^above post^^ quoting my take on the "Mental Issues" in the Trans Community and how it reigned down on this place..

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zhanav...a-and-autism-spectrum-disorders/#6f4537b5153e

Their is TONS of articles and studies linking Autism/Aspergers and Gender Identity Disorders.

These posters who "jumped ship"..They werent these fantasy 'HOT BAILEY JAYE" types..
These were mostly sick people. Ill even use the silly term "Weaponized Autism" types. Their weapon was their identity.

Look, I dont support doxxing...but quite a few of are Trans community werent normal folks if you see their pics/read their doxxed profiles.

Ya know when you meet that crazy eyed Incel at Gamestop who strikes up that convo with you about Sonic? And you notice his weak mustache, crazy eyes, onion smell and you think "Aww, hes on the spectrum!"
Thats the look they have...but with long female dry damaged hair (serious, Im a straight dude and even I know what a hot oil treament can do!)

Take a look..One of are MIA Ex-community members has a video of her playing her music live to an audience..Which consisted of beating a keyboard with a hammer while she packed 280lbs into a moomoo.
This one also has posted else where about harming animals.

"New Places" Gaming Journalist/Mod has a history of destorying a mans life with False Claims of Transphobia.
And by god...the look of crazy in her eyes is ASTOUNDING. Not to mention her inability to battle a 5 o'clock shadow or even remotely attempt to pass.

These ex-members werent STABLE! Haha.

Off topic so to say but look at the old dating thread, old "Whos a Virgin" thread, mental health and Autism thread..
They connect the dots.

We had Autistic Virgins with debilitating weight and self esteem issues lecturing everyone!
I mean, Evillore got ripped into over false claims by men who have never talked to a woman. Male feminist, living in basments making Knuckles fan fics, while battling mental health issues.

It was a clear case of the lunatics taking control of the institution.
Social pariahs with an axe to grind against society and 'Normies'

 

[Moneal]

Laws only work if they are fairly and adequately applied. You can't bring up laws protecting trans people when there is not, for instance, nationwide protection for them from being fired for being trans.

From the EEOC website. "If you believe that you have been discriminated against at work because of your race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy, gender identity, and sexual orientation), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information, you can file a Charge of Discrimination. A charge of discrimination is a signed statement asserting that an employer, union or labor organization engaged in employment discrimination. It requests EEOC to take remedial action."

 

[OrionFalls]

No one is arguing this. But we are not here to play the opression olympics. No one wins who gets bullied, mobbed etc. And your race, gender, sex should have nothing to do with it. A bullied trans person is not more important than a bullied white men.

And yet several people have played the “BUT WHITE PEOPLE GET BULLIED” card in this very thread. This entire thread is about oppression. Hell, the original post is about reducing an entire community to one belittling word. But whatever, white people have it so fucking bad. These trans people don’t know what true hardship is.

 

[Dunki]

They are not. There is specific opposition to prevent protection of trans people from employment discrimination from being added to these laws, and people do get fired for being trans.

Also, you cannot ignore the advantages that one group has and expect no course correcting to occur to address such advantages.

Not in my country. Again we have discrimination laws for it which county for everyone.

Also: Let us take the women quoatas in a hiring process as example: What about fields and job like teacher, healthcare(nursing) etc who have a HUGE genderdifference. In nursing its almost 20:1 in terms of women/men. So what is so different here? So yes if you actually think women quotas would help to solve these differences (I do not) than you also should be for men quotas as well.

 

[A Link to the Past]

From the EEOC website. "If you believe that you have been discriminated against at work because of your race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy, gender identity, and sexual orientation), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information, you can file a Charge of Discrimination. A charge of discrimination is a signed statement asserting that an employer, union or labor organization engaged in employment discrimination. It requests EEOC to take remedial action."

And there are people that try to push against this by implementing law to revoke these protections for trans people (and in some cases, gay people).

No in my country. Again we have discrimination laws for it which county for everyone.

Also: Let us take the women quoatas in a hiring process as example: What about fields and job like teacher, healthcare(nursing) etc who have a HUGE genderdifference. In nursing its almost 20:1 in terms of women/men. So what is so different here? So yes if you actually thing women quotas would help to solve these differences than you also should be for men quotas as well.

I believe that there is an active effort to get men into nursing, yes. After all, nursing is one of the employment fields that will be doing the most strongly, so the disparity would be harmful for men to not have access to these employment opportunities.

 

[Moneal]

And yet several people have played the “BUT WHITE PEOPLE GET BULLIED” card in this very thread. This entire thread is about oppression. Hell, the original post is about reducing an entire community to one belittling word. But whatever, white people have it so fucking bad. These trans people don’t know what true hardship is.

No one played the white people get bullied card. they played the everyone gets bullied card. and said that everyone should be protected equally.

 

[Dunki]

And yet several people have played the “BUT WHITE PEOPLE GET BULLIED” card in this very thread. This entire thread is about oppression. Hell, the original post is about reducing an entire community to one belittling word. But whatever, white people have it so fucking bad. These trans people don’t know what true hardship is.

Because THEY GET BULLIED. You should not be fucking ignored if you get bullied just because you are white. I am sorry but NO.

EVERY PERSON who gets bullied no matter what needs protection.

 

[A Link to the Past]

No one played the white people get bullied card. they played the everyone gets bullied card. and said that everyone should be protected equally.

But that's not valid or logical. Response to bullying should be proportionate. If one group is being bullied disproportionately more often, then the appropriate response should be to pay extra attention on it.

Because THEY GET BULLIED. You should not be fucking ignored if you get bullied just because you are white. I am sorry but NO.

EVERY PERSON who gets bullied no matter what needs protection.

Bullying is not ignored, people are merely arguing that some groups get bullied worse and more frequently than others.

 

[Moneal]

But that's not valid or logical. Response to bullying should be proportionate. If one group is being bullied disproportionately more often, then the appropriate response should be to pay extra attention on it.

response and protection are 2 very different things. everyone should be equally protected. if a group is disproportionately targeted the monitoring should be given extra attention. protection means the law prohibits something. the law should prohibit the behavior regardless of what group you ascribe.

 

[A Link to the Past]

response and protection are 2 very different things. everyone should be equally protected. if a group is disproportionately targeted the monitoring should be given extra attention. protection means the law prohibits something. the law should prohibit the behavior regardless of what group you ascribe.

Bullying someone for being white is prohibited in the law. Acknowledging that one group gets it worse and in turn trying to curb that - especially when the groups that get the most bullying are often smaller groups - is the appropriate step.

 

[Moneal]

Bullying someone for being white is prohibited in the law. Acknowledging that one group gets it worse and in turn trying to curb that - especially when the groups that get the most bullying are often smaller groups - is the appropriate step.

Thats exactly what I said. Adding additional laws doesn't do that. it protects them more, thus making them unequal. its why I am against hate crime laws. if its already a crime why have an additional crime because it was against a specific group? We have to make sure we are enforcing the laws we have regardless of the group. If we do that we are protecting the individual.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Thats exactly what I said. Adding additional laws doesn't do that. it protects them more, thus making them unequal.

But if "you can't bully people for who they are" laws are not effectively curbing bullying certain groups, should we not address that?

 

[Dunki]

Bullying someone for being white is prohibited in the law. Acknowledging that one group gets it worse and in turn trying to curb that - especially when the groups that get the most bullying are often smaller groups - is the appropriate step.

And then you are playing oppression olympics which will cause also more hostility by putting one over another and this is also why identity politics do not work. Again we do not need special trans anti discrimination laws that only protect trans people. We do not need special women laws that extra protects women. We need equal laws that have the same sort of protection for everyone.

 

[Moneal]

But if "you can't bully people for who they are" laws are not effectively curbing bullying certain groups, should we not address that?

Pretty sure bullying laws are not effective across the board. mostly because we aren't enforcing them. the bullied are almost always in the minority of the area where they are bullied.

 

[OrionFalls]

But that's not valid or logical. Response to bullying should be proportionate. If one group is being bullied disproportionately more often, then the appropriate response should be to pay extra attention on it.

Bullying is not ignored, people are merely arguing that some groups get bullied worse and more frequently than others.

This is what certain close-minded people are struggling to understand. I’m glad I’m not alone in this thread entirely.

 

[Blam]

I mean militant is a strong word, and frankly we weren't, but I might have some extreme bias so I probably missed any of it if it did happen.

 

[Bill O'Rights]

As to the ^^above post^^ quoting my take on the "Mental Issues" in the Trans Community and how it reigned down on this place..

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zhanav...a-and-autism-spectrum-disorders/#6f4537b5153e

Their is TONS of articles and studies linking Autism/Aspergers and Gender Identity Disorders.
'

I understand the point you're trying to make here, but I would suggest such a divisive topic requires a more subtle or eloquent approach.


A lot of things you point to here are actually side effects of medication prescribed specifically for autistic people. Halitosis and weight gain being the two most obvious. Extending as far as the medication used to treat downs syndrome as well. Another side effect is prolonged alertness followed by intense periods of tiredness and headaches. So when you are saying these people have a 'look' about them, you need to take into consideration why they are manifested.


I don't think the physical degradation is needed either. I'd encourage you to go back and tidy up your original post and maybe add a few more thoughtful comments in there to support the linking of mental health and gender identity. Also, I would suggest finding a more credible research study or contextualise the one you cite with controversy.

 

[A Link to the Past]

And then you are playing oppression olympics which will cause also more hostility by putting one over another and this is also why identity politics do not work. Again we do not need special trans anti discrimination laws that only protect trans people. We do not need special women laws that extra protects women. We need equal laws that have the same sort of protection for everyone.

The issue with this idea that it involves oppression Olympics is that it assumes that one protection law exists as a detriment to the protection of others. Acknowledging that trans people are being abused to disproportionate degrees is not taking away from the abuse of others, and laws should be made as they are needed. Especially when anti-LGBT violence is rising exponentially, I think that makes a solid argument as to why these laws are important. Especially when there are a number of politicians seeking to take away rights from LGBT people.

 

[shpankey]

Pretty sure bullying laws are not effective across the board. mostly because we aren't enforcing them. the bullied are almost always in the minority of the area where they are bullied.

And that's the rub. I agree with the other poster in a perfect Star Trek like world, equal laws for everyone regardless of anything is the way it should be. But like you point out, right now we have an imbalance that the extra laws are trying to course correct the lack of proper enforcement. By doing this, we are taking measures to make sure they are enforced for those who may be passed over b/c of who they are.

 

[Guiberu]

And that's the rub. I agree with the other poster in a perfect Star Trek like world, equal laws for everyone regardless of anything is the way it should be. But like you point out, right now we have an imbalance that the extra laws are trying to course correct the lack of proper enforcement. By doing this, we are taking measures to make sure they are enforced for those who may be passed over b/c of who they are.

Course correction, and ensuring vulnerable people are protected as much as necessary is absolutely fine.

Reducing the worth of other's positions in the process, is not.

There is not a limited amount of compassion, to be rationed among only those who truly deserve it.

 

[NinjaBoiX]

I voiced an opinion in a trans thread on Era in a calm and considered manner, making appropriate concessions and apologies to those who would inevitably be offended (not because it was it was particularly offensive but because peeps love to be triggered), and of course I was banned immediately for a month.

By a trans mod, who else.

“No, we like to hear nothing but exactly what pleases and humours us, anything outside these parameters will be deemed wildly inflammatory and flat out wrong.”

Fun times...

 

[shpankey]

Course correction, and ensuring vulnerable people are protected as much as necessary is absolutely fine.

Reducing the worth of other's positions in the process, is not.

There is not a limited amount of compassion, to be rationed among only those who truly deserve it.

I definitely agree w/ this, and was talking about outside of what happened at this forum and just in general. Sorry for not making that more clear.

 

[Deleted member 713885]

I understand the point you're trying to make here, but I would suggest such a divisive topic requires a more subtle or eloquent approach.


A lot of things you point to here are actually side effects of medication prescribed specifically for autistic people. Halitosis and weight gain being the two most obvious. Extending as far as the medication used to treat downs syndrome as well. Another side effect is prolonged alertness followed by intense periods of tiredness and headaches. So when you are saying these people have a 'look' about them, you need to take into consideration why they are manifested.


I don't think the physical degradation is needed either. I'd encourage you to go back and tidy up your original post and maybe add a few more thoughtful comments in there to support the linking of mental health and gender identity. Also, I would suggest finding a more credible research study or contextualise the one you cite with controversy.

Sorry. Ill edit it..but I cant find 'Edit' only says report. Having a few issues with the new layout (love it tho!)

Ill add some.other studies in also. I googled Autism and Transgender and it came back with a large nunber of articles.

 

[Dunki]

The issue with this idea that it involves oppression Olympics is that it assumes that one protection law exists as a detriment to the protection of others. Acknowledging that trans people are being abused to disproportionate degrees is not taking away from the abuse of others, and laws should be made as they are needed. Especially when anti-LGBT violence is rising exponentially, I think that makes a solid argument as to why these laws are important. Especially when there are a number of politicians seeking to take away rights from LGBT people.

So you do not believe that the moment a minority no matter what gets extra advantages or protection that there will not be more hostility because of it?

Example: Hiring again: We kind of have woman quotas in Germany: Example if a men and a woman apply to a job in IT for example and they have almost the same qualifications. They have to take the wome even if she would be sligtlhy less qualified than the man. With this kind of action I noticed more hostility towards women because people think this is an unfair law and she only got the job because of it. Giving other people advantages in what way ever will cause more hositility towards them because more people feel left out.

I am also not against the notion of mentioning that trans people or minorities in general get bullied etc more. The problem I however have is that when you try to politicize this to make them special etc. That is not my understanding of equality. Stuff like the BBC I think did when sing job adverts extra mentioning that this is only for minorities and women. This is what I call discrimination and that would not be allowed at all in my country.

And I hate fake statistics the militants often use. Example: Domestic violence against women when the ratio is like 60:40 you can not say that it is a overall majority. Other studies even started in the 80s state that women indeed hit more often ut men do more damage. And when you mention that man also suffer have absolute no places to go to you get called MRA. That is why I do not like these identity politics since I do not prioritize people based on something they had no influence in.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Hostility is irrelevant however, because hostility exists for things that we agree were incredibly good. Civil Rights Movement? Most white people were opposed to it. Suffragette movement? The propaganda and hatred of women who wanted the vote makes current anti-feminist extremists look downright kind by comparison.

Also, with respect, in general I am skeptical of some of the things you cited. This is because in a previous discussion, when I asked for a source, upon receiving it I discover that it did not say what you claimed it did. So if you could cite these claims, I would appreciate it.

Also also, the notion that you can't mention men's issues without being seen as an MRA is (mostly) mischaracterization. It does occur that people take the valid response to many of these arguments and apply them without thinking of context, but all too often, men get called MRAs for saying this because the statement is not a good faith effort to raise awareness for men's issues, it's often used as a bludgeon for women's issues.

 

[Kotzen Ducha]

My original intent was just to be running the site as I would a social space in real life. Most of us can get along with people of whatever sex, whatever orientation, whatever ethnicity, and whatever politics without going off the rails, so why can't it be like that on the internet too? I'm a pretty laid back person who can get along with nearly anyone and who wants to engage with diverse viewpoints.

Regarding trans issues, I recognized that trans people have it really hard in society and I paid extra attention to attempting to shape an environment where they could be comfortable being themselves, since those environments are few and far between. I was happy to see a trans-gaf subcommunity form over time and the community trend toward better understanding of trans issues such that they'd be far more respectful by default than you'd typically see.

That being said, my own views on how an internet forum should be run trend toward not giving a damn what anyone claims to be in terms of identity, just the content of what they have to say and the evidence supporting it. I'm not anonymous, and some other people here aren't, but most personas are formed freely on the internet and when you can become a "protected class" and wield power by announcing that you're a person of color or a woman or trans or whatever it may be, that's going to be taken advantage of on a platform like this. And it was. I never wanted that outcome. I just wanted everyone to be able to come on here and not deal with what I felt was a massive dissonance between how we typically engage with each other on the internet vs how we do IRL.

What the OP describes wasn't really specific to the trans community here. Every identity of person seemed to trend toward hostile tribalism over time, a huge rift formed between community and moderation, individual mods had their own agendas they were furthering, and I failed to course correct it all. Eventually nothing was "progressive enough" and I became the enemy to a subset of the trans community here as well as a subset of every minority community here. I took that all in and tried to navigate it, tried to understand people's positions, but nothing was good enough and a ton of people lashed out at me any time I said anything eventually.

Honestly, I was completely miserable every moment I was on GAF in 2017. I tried to turn things around, but I was dealing with rough personal issues all year and was only just starting to pull myself out of that when I got #metooed (falsely) out of nowhere. It was overwhelming and scary. It got mainstream media attention. The community had become a powderkeg of polarized, authoritarian left hostility that seemed to revel in setting this place on fire from within and throw me onto a pyre the moment they found out about that BS allegation, and almost all the mods immediately bailed, we got DDoSed for like two straight days, and by the time we were back up we barely had any mod coverage and I was deeply hurt by what the community was saying about me and could barely engage with it. Then I had to step back and take care of important personal concerns, so it took some time to figure out where to take the site from there.

Anyway, don't blame the trans community here. Blame me. Everything that happened, at least, eventually became an opportunity to actually course correct this place like I couldn't when it was at its peak, so that we'd be able to actually talk about things again, and use this place for escapism from the shitty real world, too, rather than some insane asylum where you're driven out for "normalizing!!11" if you don't hate everything and want to die.

I think @Rocket Number 22 sets a great example by being willing to talk about her identity and demanding a baseline of respect we all should have for each other, but not constantly relying on "as a trans woman....." at the start of each sentence in an argument. We all have an identity, we all have our struggles, we can all respect each other. Let's do it without creating a swirling miasma of bitter hostility in a game of oppression olympics where there's one correct thing to say and we all hate each other for the privileges we see on the other side of the screen. And let's be cool with our trans gaffers too.

Thanks.

It's so sad. I was here in 2003 and the community was fun.


MODERATOR EDIT
Much of what you claim in your post, which has now been removed, just isn't accurate. Even if it was true, you do not use a recognised developmental disorder such as autism to demean people that you don't agree with or like.

 

[Dunki]

Hostility is irrelevant however, because hostility exists for things that we agree were incredibly good. Civil Rights Movement? Most white people were opposed to it. Suffragette movement? The propaganda and hatred of women who wanted the vote makes current anti-feminist extremists look downright kind by comparison.

Also, with respect, in general I am skeptical of some of the things you cited. This is because in a previous discussion, when I asked for a source, upon receiving it I discover that it did not say what you claimed it did. So if you could cite these claims, I would appreciate it.

Also also, the notion that you can't mention men's issues without being seen as an MRA is (mostly) mischaracterization. It does occur that people take the valid response to many of these arguments and apply them without thinking of context, but all too often, men get called MRAs for saying this because the statement is not a good faith effort to raise awareness for men's issues, it's often used as a bludgeon for women's issues.

What do you not believe me? That we have this law in Germany? or how I experienced more talk like she only got the job because of this etc?

And for the MRA part this is not true. The moment you crticize modern Feminism and their hipocracy which I surely often do. You are automatically a MRA. The moment you went to go after Ghostbusters you were an MRA. These accusations like sexist, racist, MRA, Nazi mean so less these days anymore because the moment you disagree with some "progressive" you are being called that.

And for your first sentence. I truly believe that these were different times and people indeed got treaten very differently even by laws. This is not the case anymore IMO. (Note by laws) so asking for more while others should not get these kind of protections has nothing to do with equality anymore.