ViewtifulJC
Banned
For some reason, they figured out all Zeldas need to be 40 hours even when the best ones are like, 15.
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Why Do 3D Zeldas Have So Much Padding?
- Thread starter Kevin Shields
- Start date
TarpitCarnivore
Member
The only ones I think were TRULY harmed by padding were Wind Waker and Skyward Sword. SS was the worst by far. I'll never forget the moment where I thought, "holy cow, a ZELDA game is wasting my time!"
And while I'm currently playing HD Twilight Princess and generally enjoying it, I wondered if I would ever try an HD Skyward Sword. I'm not sure I would, just because of that padding.
And while I'm currently playing HD Twilight Princess and generally enjoying it, I wondered if I would ever try an HD Skyward Sword. I'm not sure I would, just because of that padding.
Shin-Ra
Junior Member
Gives you time to admire all the badass equipment and upgrades Link's picked up!
I don't find it too irritating in Zelda as long as the UI, warping and other means of transport are quick. Epona's janky steering, lots of half-empty fields and the slow introduction of warp points make Twilight Princess a bit more paddy than usual.
I don't find it too irritating in Zelda as long as the UI, warping and other means of transport are quick. Epona's janky steering, lots of half-empty fields and the slow introduction of warp points make Twilight Princess a bit more paddy than usual.
This got old, real damn quick.
Zelda is at its best when its the mysteries and secrets that compel you to search and spend time. When you are forced to do chores it's terrible.
One thing the series could do better at is giving real reason to seek secrets. Money, heart pieces, collectables are not good reason. There needs to be real items, things that greatly increase the players power, out there in the wild. What would be sweet is if they figured out how to make such secrets different for each playthrough, buy still fun to unlock (not bomb every bush).
One thing the series could do better at is giving real reason to seek secrets. Money, heart pieces, collectables are not good reason. There needs to be real items, things that greatly increase the players power, out there in the wild. What would be sweet is if they figured out how to make such secrets different for each playthrough, buy still fun to unlock (not bomb every bush).
Shuggananas
Banned
ALTTP does that really well. There are a few optional items hidden in the world. They're not super OP but they can be really useful.
themagicalkitsune
Member
Well if you consider that padding ... I guess 100 gold skulltullas in OoT count? They're optional collectibles either way. (MM did a much better job in that section by having the two spider houses instead of putting 100 of them randomly all over the overworld).
In that respect I feel like Zelda games have a lot to learn from Souls games, because they are actually surprisingly similar in many ways.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I don't know that ALttP or LA really pads things out much.
Orniletter
Banned
Yep, thats my takeaway too.
They come up with ideas to repurpose existing content "Flood the Faron Woods". I mean, the idea was good on paper (" make a swimming challange/ a level based on swimming") but the execution was off.
There are more hits than misses imo.
LegendofLex
Member
There's considerably more padding than the first two Zelda games. They're definitely not egregiously bad, though.
Well OoT didn't really have that much. If I had to guess, Nintendo was unsatisfied with how little the world matters in OoT compared to previous game. Unable to figure out how to make a comparable world with system limitations, they decided to fill the world with NPC/plot driven mini quests.
With Majora they pulled this off fairly well; the stuff you do is mostly fun/challenging/interesting. Good characters and stories as well as the time mechanic keep you feeling like you are doing something worthwhile.
With Wind Waker they were obviously rushed and decided to pad the game with the triforce quest, which harkens back to Zelda 1.
With TP they again failed to make the world itself interesting, so they filled it with NPC stuff. This really drags because the characters aren't as interesting or matter as much as MM, the stuff they have you do is tedious, takes too long, and isn't challenging, and there's a ton of it between each dungeon. It's like if MM consisted of nothing but beaver races. Really challenge and world design are big contributors to why TP feels so bloated.
With SS they finally made a world on the level with classic games where the world itself challenges you. They dialed the bloat down quite a bit from TP, and what remains isn't as tedious since it takes less time and offers more challenge.
With Majora they pulled this off fairly well; the stuff you do is mostly fun/challenging/interesting. Good characters and stories as well as the time mechanic keep you feeling like you are doing something worthwhile.
With Wind Waker they were obviously rushed and decided to pad the game with the triforce quest, which harkens back to Zelda 1.
With TP they again failed to make the world itself interesting, so they filled it with NPC stuff. This really drags because the characters aren't as interesting or matter as much as MM, the stuff they have you do is tedious, takes too long, and isn't challenging, and there's a ton of it between each dungeon. It's like if MM consisted of nothing but beaver races. Really challenge and world design are big contributors to why TP feels so bloated.
With SS they finally made a world on the level with classic games where the world itself challenges you. They dialed the bloat down quite a bit from TP, and what remains isn't as tedious since it takes less time and offers more challenge.
HeresSomeWeapons
Member
Tadtones were tedious and did absolutely nothing except take up time. At least there are puzzles to be solved when moving the owl statues in TP.
Wait, really? Your defending Skyward Sword and in the same breath complaining that another game makes you repeat an area? Everything in Skyward Sword past the third dungeon is a rehash of areas you've already been to. Not to even mention the fucking Imprisoned fight that was bad enough the first time and doesn't get any better the next three times you fight him.
Orniletter
Banned
So now even the dungeons are padding.
Some of my favorite zeldas are ones where it's literally JUST the dungeons (if you want it to be).
That said, in no way do I want them to take out the variety or additional content - I just wish that some of it was relegated to world-building side content. Make the game richer and more rewarding if you do it (either by rewarding with backstory/items) but make the main game more streamlined by leaving it optional. Some of my fondest gaming moments are from optional content. If that optional content were forced every single time, the game wouldn't have been as enjoyable. I think twilight princess would flow way way way better if most of the stuff you do is optional.
Instead of being forced to fish for the cat to buy the slingshot, make fishing for the cat be to JUST get the bottle. You can buy slingshot regardless.
Instead of having to escort the monkey through the swamp gas, make it something you come back for later and get a heart piece or an upgraded lamp.
There are ways to keep the content and variety in the game without having them absolutely demolish the pacing. There are a ton of things that are added in for variety's sake - not because they were necessary. The team felt obligated to just add and add and add to make it a more 'experience rich' game. I know two people who never got TO the first dungeon in twilight princess because they got bored during the intro.
Yeah, skyward sword was basically just one really really long dungeon. I think in SS, though, it may have been beneficial to add a bit more 'rest' in between dungeons that just make it one long chain of dungeons. In this case, the 'resting' period between dungeons was the optional part. A lot of people have issues with this, I guess. I still love it, though.
Shuggananas
Banned
There's only the trade quest I can think of as padding. Can't get to the final boss without doing it
As for OOT the only thing I consider padding is unlocking epona and even then it's not mandatory I think
Nocturnowl
Member
Remember the part in Skyward Sword where you first reach Faron and you're sent on a mighty heroic trial to get a bottle of water from the very end of the first dungeon? Classic Fetchquest Faron right there.
SS strikes me as a game that could've made a few of its mandatory segments optional sidequests with worthwhile rewards.
SS strikes me as a game that could've made a few of its mandatory segments optional sidequests with worthwhile rewards.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
"Padding" just means "event in game I don't like"
by this definition, all of Wind Waker was padding. Its weak dungeons, its long ass sailing, its piss easy combat...
I'm pretty sure I beat ALBW pretty quickly, but I consider it one of the best-designed Zelda games. Very tight, great pacing, just like ALTTP. Even the optional stuff was fun and didn't take that long to 100%. But that's 3DS, and not a console Zelda.
For some reason, they want Zelda to be RPG length, but don't have enough things to fill the world with, like enemies, or interesting NPC's and Quests, so we get TAD TONES.
They need to either cut the length of 3D Zeldas in half, or make them so big that they figure out they need more interesting things in them. But I doubt they'll figure it out because Nintendo is so in tune with function over style.
They need to either cut the length of 3D Zeldas in half, or make them so big that they figure out they need more interesting things in them. But I doubt they'll figure it out because Nintendo is so in tune with function over style.
They don't, if you know what you are doing, or utilize the hint systems a lot. New players though will expect to spend some time wandering around looking for the next dungeon, etc.
Padding to me just means time spent doing something not part of the main quest/main game. That can be doing repetitive side quests, or just dicking around while you figure out what to do next.
Yeah I feel this has been detrimental to the series. If they focus more on dungeon size/count and less on play hours it would be better, but I doubt they do this anytime soon, Zelda U being more open world and all.
A Link to the Past
Banned
At least as far as ALttP goes, I find that it actually does quite a bit of pathing for you. Pretty much everything that you need to do is told to you as to where it is and how to get it. The only exception is the Ice Rod, but even then an NPC alludes to a great treasure to the southeast.
Eh? Only two dungeons in ALttP aren't marked on your map, and most of the obstacles that block your progress are dealt with using items you got from the previous dungeon. For instance:
1. You get the Pegasus Boots for beating the first dungeon, which gets you into the second;
2. You get the Power Glove for beating the second dungeon, which gets you into the third;
3. You get the Moon Peal for beating the the third dungeon, which gets you to the Dark World;
4. You get the Hammer for beating the fourth dungeon, which gets you to the second;
5. You get the Hookshot for beating the fifth dungeon, which (helps) get you to the third;
6. You get the Fire Rod for beating the sixth dungeon, which is needed for the 10th;
7. You get the Titan Mitts for beating the seventh dungeon, which is needed for the eighth and ninth;
8. You get the Cane of Somaria for beating the ninth, which is needed for the 10th;
The game is pretty decent at keeping the player on track.
Shuggananas
Banned
Oh yeah you go to the same areas again.
Except :
- You don't do the same shit. Skull kid in lost woods twice was a fucking shame
- You explore new sub areas to these areas. Water section for the woods, sea of sand for the desert, inside the volcano for the mountain
To me padding is when the game expects you to do a chore to progress in the main quest. Those owl statues in the overworld were a fucking chore.
Tadtones were a crappy minigame but it didn't take long at all and was all in the same area.
The fairies in MM are not padding at all, it's pretty clear they're optional and the upgrades aren't that good.
Rodney McKay
Member
I personally don't consider it padding, I was just trying to figure out what the OP could potentially consider padding. I always felt like I had to collect the fairies in the dungeons (for the upgrades), and because of the time limit I always felt like I was rushed if I wanted to get all of them AND finish the dungeon for the first time all in one go.
I did like the Skulltula collection a lot more in Majora's Mask too, the specific mansions for that were a great idea.
HeresSomeWeapons
Member
Shuggananas
Banned
I'm talking about the 3 main areas, not this shitty boss, yeah that was garbage, I'm not defending the entire game, see my first post in the thread
Having to do the lost woods twice in TP is absolute garbage. In fact the first time itself is horrible.
What is the difference between a minigame and a chore, other than you (personally) liked one but not the other? Tadtones were a chore, for me.
The wolf parts are the definition of padding.
There is literally no valid reason that there are so many wolf segments in the game.
It's like the time you're a deku scrub in MM but then tenfold because you can't switch back at will.
Shuggananas
Banned
Scale and duration ?
Spending 5-10 minutes to collect tadtones is annoying but it's nowhere near spending hours searching statues or triforce pieces
Or crossing the entire map to play a sumo minigame to get the iron boots, and then coming back
A Link to the Past
Banned
And at least Deku Scrub is fun
Spieler Eins
Member
And let's not forget the wonderful lost woods that you have to do twice.
Lost woods were amazing, top notch atmosphere.
Same goes for all wolf parts.
This boss is the worst fucking shit ever.
HeresSomeWeapons
Member
The wolf stuff I can see being tedious on multiple playthroughs, but the first time around the tears of light served the purpose of familiarizing the player with the area. Never bothered me at all, but I get that every other person in the world hated it.
And then they doubled down on it in Skyward Sword! For the fucking Silent Realm. THAT shit served no purpose.
Shuggananas
Banned
It's a better game than both TP and WW
I, too, consider 'traveling to collect stuff' a chore (if done poorly), so tadtones fall under that category for me, swimming or not.
A Link to the Past
Banned
As I argued earlier, OoT has it too - the entire Adult Link section, with exceptions, is just retreading. Granted it's due to technical limitations and thus is more excusable than the Wind Waker and Twilight Princess stuff, but it still qualifies as padding.
I have to disagree. TWW's padding is by far the worst, especially considering that game has such little actual meat to it.
I'd say TP's padding is all front-loaded, It doesn't suffer from the back paddding quite as much as TWW and SS do. That said, SS's padding is in general pretty great. The dragon quests are pretty fun, aside from the tadtones. Personally, I would have moved those to be optional instead of required. I think it would cut down on issues.
I think it's going to come down to "how do you define padding"?
I didn't have to recalibrate my controller in either of those though
Since it has been five years since the last Zelda game, I hope Nintendo doesnt feel like it has to be a long game. I think that is some of the reason for the padding. Like others have mentioned, it would be better if the main line game is tightly paced and then have plenty of side quests to increase length.
Abyssal God
Banned
I was fine with the padding in OOT/MM/WW, but TP and SS took it to another level and I consider those games to be bad because of all the filler, padding, and handholding.
ALBW gives me hope, but I'll believe it until I see it in a 3D game.
ALBW gives me hope, but I'll believe it until I see it in a 3D game.
RazielCuts
Member
Because length means value.
It the reason I have dropped TP HD for now. So much freaking stupid hand holding and stuff to do before actually letting you play the game.
The 2D ones, especially ATTLP, did things better. Right to the action. Maybe they slowed a bit to give a bit of more exposure to the story, but nothing so tedious.
It's something I've always wondered about Nintendo. I know they have a kiddie, friendly image which would lead to those types of tutorials and stuff, but Nintendo is the only company that has such well known franchises that have been going for 20 years or more.
At this point we freaking now what a Zelda, Metroid, Mario game is all about so I don't get this.
The 2D ones, especially ATTLP, did things better. Right to the action. Maybe they slowed a bit to give a bit of more exposure to the story, but nothing so tedious.
It's something I've always wondered about Nintendo. I know they have a kiddie, friendly image which would lead to those types of tutorials and stuff, but Nintendo is the only company that has such well known franchises that have been going for 20 years or more.
At this point we freaking now what a Zelda, Metroid, Mario game is all about so I don't get this.
Spieler Eins
Member
Introducing an area through the dark world version. Excluding maybe the forest, the bugs are usually also connected to completely different challenges and tasks. Technically, there's also no reason that there are so many dungeons. Other than TP being an amazing game with lots of variety and great content.
I agree with OP actually.
I don't know if I'd call it padding, but when I was junior high and mostly played fighting games, Contra, and the like, there were things in OoT and MM that either confused or annoyed me. I didn't finish either until much later on, though I've played through LttP and Minnish Cap multiple times.
I can't think of specific examples, but there are lots of "oh, I needed to ask that guy a question 3 times!" or "ah crap, I needed to go there after midnight." So yeah, not padding for me, just...I guess maybe old game tropes? Either way, Zelda is about dungeons for me, so if they're good enough, I don't mind all that much anymore.
I don't know if I'd call it padding, but when I was junior high and mostly played fighting games, Contra, and the like, there were things in OoT and MM that either confused or annoyed me. I didn't finish either until much later on, though I've played through LttP and Minnish Cap multiple times.
I can't think of specific examples, but there are lots of "oh, I needed to ask that guy a question 3 times!" or "ah crap, I needed to go there after midnight." So yeah, not padding for me, just...I guess maybe old game tropes? Either way, Zelda is about dungeons for me, so if they're good enough, I don't mind all that much anymore.
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